Hard Light Productions Forums

Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: Bobboau on November 24, 2003, 11:03:44 am

Title: new technology test
Post by: Bobboau on November 24, 2003, 11:03:44 am
this morning I integrated one of the newer technologys avalable on ATI cards, the result should be quite dramatic, but I'm not going to tell you what I did becase I want to see if you can tell on your own, this was just quickly hacked in (a grand total of five lines of code were changed) and I think it'll crash in game but it should work in the techroom, and if you don't have a fairly advanced radeon it probly won't work at all.

try it (http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/blackwater/fs2_open_n.zip)

and this will defenantly NOT be in 3.6
Title: new technology test
Post by: Lightspeed on November 24, 2003, 11:08:32 am
trying this RIGHT NOW!!!1111oenoenone
Title: new technology test
Post by: phreak on November 24, 2003, 11:13:36 am
what is it? i don't know if my 9000 will have it enabled
Title: new technology test
Post by: Lightspeed on November 24, 2003, 11:20:49 am
It is ..... f*ing AWESOME!!

I'll test if this crashes in mission right away (it crashed when i clicked a briefing icon, theres flickery lines in some of the models.... but what I saw was just.... gr000000vy :) )

(http://smalltimerivalry.com/sschost/scriptlightspeed/awesome++.jpg)

(http://smalltimerivalry.com/sschost/scriptlightspeed/awesome+.jpg)

I didn't even know my Radeon 9800 could do such pretty stuff ;)

Puhleeeaaaze get this bug fixed and working :D
Title: new technology test
Post by: Lightspeed on November 24, 2003, 11:28:44 am
crashes in mission.

Displays the first frame okay, and then crashed.
Title: new technology test
Post by: Vilkacis on November 24, 2003, 11:29:23 am
That's ATI's TruForm technology right? N-Patches or something...
Title: new technology test
Post by: Lightspeed on November 24, 2003, 11:31:43 am
whatever it is.... look at that Ulysses cockpit!!!!
Title: new technology test
Post by: phreak on November 24, 2003, 11:57:25 am
Quote
Originally posted by Vilkacis
That's ATI's TruForm technology right? N-Patches or something...


yea that looks like it.. figured that would be it since its radeon only
Title: new technology test
Post by: J3Vr6 on November 24, 2003, 12:46:09 pm
So for people who don't have an ATI card or a newer ATI card, what is it that everyone is seeing?  Glowing cockpits?
Title: new technology test
Post by: mikhael on November 24, 2003, 12:51:18 pm
autopatched curves to smooth out segmentation in low poly models, j3vr6
Title: new technology test
Post by: Lightspeed on November 24, 2003, 01:11:59 pm
things look way smoother as if the poly count was increased significatly, although it is not.

--> great speed & looks :D
Title: new technology test
Post by: Trivial Psychic on November 24, 2003, 01:55:07 pm
Would this work with a 9600 Pro 128MB?

Later!
Title: new technology test
Post by: phreak on November 24, 2003, 02:04:21 pm
i thought it was anything above 8500.. which is odd since my 9000 doesn't have the GL extension for it, but 8500s do
Title: new technology test
Post by: Col. Fishguts on November 24, 2003, 02:13:19 pm
can this be done on a per-model-basis, or is it all or nothing ?
Cause I think some ships (i.e. Ursa, Herc) might look fubar with this.
Title: new technology test
Post by: Vilkacis on November 24, 2003, 02:14:43 pm
AFAIK the hardware support for this feature was taken out again in the 9000's series (not sure though). This feature does also work on non ATI boards, for example there's a little prog called FPS Optimizer for Morrowind that enables this technology for Radeons but it also works on nvidia boards, those just have no hardware support for it thus resulting in performance loss.
Title: new technology test
Post by: Ashrak on November 24, 2003, 02:48:20 pm
holy ****.......i need a radeon
Title: new technology test
Post by: Woolie Wool on November 24, 2003, 02:51:58 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ashrak
holy ****.......i need a radeon
Title: new technology test
Post by: phreak on November 24, 2003, 02:55:53 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Vilkacis
AFAIK the hardware support for this feature was taken out again in the 9000's series (not sure though). This feature does also work on non ATI boards, for example there's a little prog called FPS Optimizer for Morrowind that enables this technology for Radeons but it also works on nvidia boards, those just have no hardware support for it thus resulting in performance loss.


well apparently it works on bob's 9800

http://www.delphi3d.net/hardware/extsupport.php?extension=GL_ATI_pn_triangles
Title: new technology test
Post by: adamnation on November 24, 2003, 03:06:54 pm
Does Nvidia, or any other graphics cards, have a corresponding technology?
Title: new technology test
Post by: Lightspeed on November 24, 2003, 03:48:06 pm
Quote
Originally posted by PhReAk


well apparently it works on bob's 9800
[/url]


it works on my 9800 too ;7 :p

and no, I think it's only for ATI cards. ATI owns. :D
Title: new technology test
Post by: Taristin on November 24, 2003, 03:55:41 pm
SO, basically, what Bob's saying is:

"If you don't have a Radeon you can **** off."

Gotcha...
Title: new technology test
Post by: Flaser on November 24, 2003, 04:06:07 pm
Nay, he said if ya hev 'his 'en ye could test it right ney.
The rest will have to be patient.

BTW I think of buying a new vidcard instead my olf GF2.
I'm definitly thinking of an ATI card. The question is which:
9600, 9700 or 9800 the first one is within the limits of my purse, I have to spare for the later two. Is it wort?
Title: new technology test
Post by: Drew on November 24, 2003, 04:11:05 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Vilkacis
AFAIK the hardware support for this feature was taken out again in the 9000's series (not sure though).

:mad:  it had better not! :hopping: :hopping: :hopping:
Title: new technology test
Post by: Turnsky on November 24, 2003, 04:35:19 pm
i'll give it a try when i get home :)

EDIT: Bobb... nice job there, and people, 9000's DO support truform... trust me on that ;)
Title: new technology test
Post by: Lightspeed on November 24, 2003, 05:32:47 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Flaser
Nay, he said if ya hev 'his 'en ye could test it right ney.
The rest will have to be patient.

BTW I think of buying a new vidcard instead my olf GF2.
I'm definitly thinking of an ATI card. The question is which:
9600, 9700 or 9800 the first one is within the limits of my purse, I have to spare for the later two. Is it wort?


yes it is. The 9800 non-pro (you need to look for a good manufacturer though, do NOT buy club3d cards or the like :p)is affordable and has about the same power as a 9700 Pro (slightly less performance, about 1-3%, not more, and it's cheaper). Also the 9800-range has cool new stuff, and since a Radeon 9800 non-pro runs at lower clock speeds than the 9700 Pro you will have less problems with heat. I would not reccommend a 256 MB version of the 9800, though. Price >> Performance.

If you can afford a good 9800 Pro, that's good, but better buy a good 9800 non-pro than a cheap 9800 PRO. I can reccommend Hercules and HIS video cards. ;)
Title: new technology test
Post by: Turnsky on November 24, 2003, 06:31:49 pm
hmmm... it works with the -htl tag, but the shinemaps don't.. very odd..
Title: new technology test
Post by: Bobboau on November 24, 2003, 06:32:02 pm
yup, and this can be set up to teselate by just about any value, I'm thinking this can be set up so that only on the highest detail levels this will ramp up from nothing to some user specifyed max teselation level as you get closer to the object

and you will note some 'cracks' in the moddels, there is a way to fix this, it should be far less notisable on most user models though (untill people start useing the facet build of PCS, wich they should) and this will _not_ fubar hard eged ships like the Ursa or the herc (well actualy the herc does get a little fubared, but it needs to be recompiles as it's normal data is screwy) it uses the normals of the polys on the ship to teselate new polys, so if the ships poly shadeing is fairly flat the resulting teselated surface should also be flat
Title: new technology test
Post by: Drew on November 24, 2003, 11:37:32 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Turnsky
EDIT: Bobb... nice job there, and people, 9000's DO support truform... trust me on that ;)

i dont see anything different here :(
Title: new technology test
Post by: Turnsky on November 24, 2003, 11:59:23 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Drew

i dont see anything different here :(


try running the HT&L..
Title: new technology test
Post by: Bobboau on November 25, 2003, 12:55:11 am
just out of curiosity, has anyone managed to get it working in game yet, I havn't, I think there is a driver issue at work here
Title: new technology test
Post by: Ulala on November 25, 2003, 01:01:09 am
133333333333333337. :yes:
Title: new technology test
Post by: Bobboau on November 25, 2003, 01:15:08 am
you know all I realy had to do for this was equivilent to
make_ships_look_cool = true;
I don't think this is gona make it in any time soon though, it seems this feature is broken at the moment, it is a very interesting technology though
Title: new technology test
Post by: Turnsky on November 25, 2003, 01:30:06 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
just out of curiosity, has anyone managed to get it working in game yet, I havn't, I think there is a driver issue at work here


(http://nodewar.penguinbomb.com/aotd/Turnsky/screen00.jpg)

it works. but isn't perfect as you can see here...
Title: new technology test
Post by: Bobboau on November 25, 2003, 01:41:14 am
hmm, is that a giant crack or... what?

what's you system, more importantly what version drivers are you useing?

I am getting extreemly random crashes, realy nasty ones too

and what kind of frame rate are you getting compared to normal htl mode?
Title: new technology test
Post by: Turnsky on November 25, 2003, 01:54:08 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
hmm, is that a giant crack or... what?

what's you system, more importantly what version drivers are you useing?

I am getting extreemly random crashes, realy nasty ones too

and what kind of frame rate are you getting compared to normal htl mode?


giant cracks..

athlon 2200+ (1.8ghz)
256 DDR
128mb radeon 9000 pro


it runs as smooth as butter, there isn't a noticeable difference really..

i'm guessing that specular is not included in the HT&L either..
Title: new technology test
Post by: Bobboau on November 25, 2003, 02:07:16 am
specular should still be there, look at the other screen shots, in fact that's one of the biggest advantages to this, that specular lighting is almost perfict, rather than poorly aproximated

that is a very similar set up as me (exept I have 9800)
narg! I want to play with it too!
Title: new technology test
Post by: Turnsky on November 25, 2003, 02:19:47 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
specular should still be there, look at the other screen shots, in fact that's one of the biggest advantages to this, that specular lighting is almost perfict, rather than poorly aproximated

that is a very similar set up as me (exept I have 9800)
narg! I want to play with it too!


that's odd, specular don't work with mine :(
Title: new technology test
Post by: Lightspeed on November 25, 2003, 06:27:01 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
specular should still be there, look at the other screen shots, in fact that's one of the biggest advantages to this, that specular lighting is almost perfict, rather than poorly aproximated

that is a very similar set up as me (exept I have 9800)
narg! I want to play with it too!


must be our 9800-cards. mine does not want to work in-game either :nervous:

Shows the first frame, then crashes.
Title: new technology test
Post by: Drew on November 25, 2003, 07:49:30 am
Quote
Originally posted by Turnsky


that's odd, specular don't work with mine :(

same here. and we have the same card....
Title: new technology test
Post by: ##UnknownPlayer## on November 26, 2003, 08:59:55 am
To post the inevitable "Come and go stranger" question here: Does anyone think it might in the future be possible for us to implement a version of truform native to the FS2 engine? Like, apply some appropriate tesselation or interpolation between detail levels that maximizes the polycount of ships on screen as much as possible w/o dropping the FPS below 30 or so?
Title: new technology test
Post by: mikhael on November 26, 2003, 09:25:12 am
In theory, you could actually do that at POF load, I think, then cache the newly tesselated meshes on disk or in memory somewhere (if they do hog too much). That way it would only be done once per game per ship, and it would be universal.

The problem, I think, comes in when you want to do the tesselation. There's a whole section on techniques for smoothing meshes in realtime in one of the OpenGL programmer reference books, I think, but its currently beyond my ken.
Title: new technology test
Post by: Silent Warrior on November 27, 2003, 02:56:35 am
It works quite well in the tech room (though the Orion and Colossus devour FPS as if there were no tomorrow - wonder why :) ), but seems to crash in-game. I only tried it with that mission where you rescue Snipes in the Grall, though. I suppose a nebula isn't the best of places to test Truform. :) ANYWAY... Like I said, it crashed almost instantly. Or SEEMED to crash! ATI have been good little humanitarians and threw in a feature called VPU Recover in the later drivers. What it does? Make the VPU revive after a crash so you can reboot in an orderly fashion. With a little luck, you might even get to play some more. Which was what happened to me. Well, after regaining visual contact of a red and black gas-soup, I exited the game just fine, managed to start a (more) stable build without any hassle whatsoever.

Ships that look weird: I only remember the Argo clearly (now it has a spine!), but the Hecate received a little tune-up as well. I don't know what to make of the Deimos... Well, whatever.
*Re-lurk*
Title: new technology test
Post by: Setekh on November 27, 2003, 07:23:55 am
Dude... that's like smoothing angles on steroids. Nice one.
Title: new technology test
Post by: Turnsky on November 27, 2003, 08:06:05 am
okay.. to answer your previous question bob, htl and truform on my machine, the FPS hovers around the 27-34+ FPS

(without shinemapping, it doesn't seem to want to work on me :( )
Title: new technology test
Post by: an0n on November 27, 2003, 08:45:59 am
Uh, how ****ty would this make 'roids look?
Title: new technology test
Post by: Taristin on November 27, 2003, 08:47:02 am
Get LS to take some screenies...
Title: new technology test
Post by: redmenace on November 27, 2003, 11:46:50 am
Quote
Originally posted by Silent Warrior
It works quite well in the tech room (though the Orion and Colossus devour FPS as if there were no tomorrow - wonder why :) ), but seems to crash in-game. I only tried it with that mission where you rescue Snipes in the Grall, though. I suppose a nebula isn't the best of places to test Truform. :) ANYWAY... Like I said, it crashed almost instantly. Or SEEMED to crash! ATI have been good little humanitarians and threw in a feature called VPU Recover in the later drivers. What it does? Make the VPU revive after a crash so you can reboot in an orderly fashion. With a little luck, you might even get to play some more. Which was what happened to me. Well, after regaining visual contact of a red and black gas-soup, I exited the game just fine, managed to start a (more) stable build without any hassle whatsoever.

Ships that look weird: I only remember the Argo clearly (now it has a spine!), but the Hecate received a little tune-up as well. I don't know what to make of the Deimos... Well, whatever.
*Re-lurk*


welcome to Hard Light Productions
(http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/forums/images/welcome2hlpbb.gif)
Exits are to the sides and rear, emergency flamethrowers can be found under the seats. And if you run into a large 5-limbed creature while wandering around in the air ducts, give it your lunch. Hopefully it's just Carl, and he'll leave you be.
Title: new technology test
Post by: an0n on November 27, 2003, 12:37:52 pm
No. We cornered Carl in the basement. We've been hitting him with rolled-up newspaper for weeks but he just won't die.

The thing in the air-ducts is that genetically modified clone of Sandwich. The Lettuce-Matrix was unstable and it ran amok before escaping into the ducts.

Hopefully it'll go stale before it manages to cause any more trouble.
Title: new technology test
Post by: Bobboau on November 27, 2003, 12:50:36 pm
the levle of smoothing can be altered or turned off on a per vertex buffer basis (every texture on every submodel).
but it is probly only going to be controled on a per model basis, as far as asteroids even if it was turned all the way on, I don't think it would make them look bad as the asteroids have very flat normals
Title: new technology test
Post by: deep_eyes on November 27, 2003, 02:18:39 pm
Im going to see if it works on my 7500 (if someone hasnt already)...
Title: new technology test
Post by: Bobboau on November 29, 2003, 12:53:38 am
I got it working in game!

zip (http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/blackwater/fs2_open_n.zip) updated!
DL and play!

... NOW!!!

yes, I do know about the cracking in the models, yes I have two rather good ways to fix the problem(one realy easy but not as nice looking, the other realy hard but would produce a nicer look)
Title: new technology test
Post by: WMCoolmon on November 29, 2003, 01:11:49 am
:eek2: :eek2: :eek2:
Somebody take a screenie of the Herc II RIGHT NOW.
Title: new technology test
Post by: Bobboau on November 29, 2003, 01:16:25 am
oh, forgot to mention there is now a comand line for it
-max_subdivide a_float_goes_here
give it a value of 1-5, it gets subdivided that many times when it's right on you, as it moves away the subdivision level goes down untill the detail level changes at wich point the subdivision will be turned off
Title: new technology test
Post by: Wes on November 29, 2003, 04:33:25 am
It doesn't appear to be working for me, with or without the command line. Looks just like normal.

btw my card is a 9700pro
Title: new technology test
Post by: Fineus on November 29, 2003, 06:08:30 am
Make it work for nVidia cards :p
Title: new technology test
Post by: Flaser on November 29, 2003, 09:00:25 am
It won't unless someone can pick a good enough feature in nVidia cards that would handle the stuff...

Going software mode....blah, that was the whole point of HTL - going back to hardware.

So it needs a good built in nvidia procedure in the cards that would do smg. similar.
Title: new technology test
Post by: RandomTiger on November 29, 2003, 09:38:11 am
Or do it at load time, would lead to more slow down than the ATI method but much more realistic to get done and working for everyone that way.
Title: new technology test
Post by: mikhael on November 29, 2003, 02:52:04 pm
That's what I suggested, RT.
Title: new technology test
Post by: Flipside on November 29, 2003, 05:52:27 pm
How long would it take for the program to subdivide and smooth all the models in a particular mission? It would be really great if it could be done though :)

Flipside :D
Title: new technology test
Post by: Bobboau on November 29, 2003, 06:26:17 pm
bout a second, probly, seeing as the card is able to do it on the fly like that sudgests it isn't a realy expensive opperation
Title: new technology test
Post by: Bobboau on November 30, 2003, 04:07:00 am
I just made an update, I currently have the n-patches set for liniar subdivision of position, but quadradic interpolation of the normals, what does this mean?
poor mans pixel shaders, basicly
untill I figure out a way to patch up the crack I'm gona keep it this way, I also made a bunch of fixes to some bugs, un fortunately I seem to have reintroduced a lighting bug, so every once in a while a model will flash bright wight for just a fraction of a second

remember to use the comand line to activate
Title: new technology test
Post by: Fry_Day on November 30, 2003, 04:40:17 am
Actually, Quadratic interpolation of normals just means that they don't need to be renormalized in the new vertices.
Title: new technology test
Post by: RandomTiger on November 30, 2003, 08:04:04 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
bout a second, probly, seeing as the card is able to do it on the fly like that sudgests it isn't a realy expensive opperation


You could do it in software which would mean locking buffers all the time which wouldnt be good.

Or try and do it in the card using vertex buffers or something. I think this would be difficult and would only benifit cards that support whatever vshader version you use. Also it means if anyone whats to use a vertex shader for anything else the shader would be really complex.

Im not shader expert sadly but I hear that one of the problems with DX8 shaders is that they have to be fairly small.

Even if we updated to DX9 which I think would be a bad idea at this point (anything that might make the engine slower should be fully researched first) that would limit the effect to DX9 cards.

To me it sounds like a hell of a lot of hasstle trying to do it in card hardware. If ATI could have implemented it as a shader rather than a card 'feature' then they would have done that and it would also be possible on GF cards.

I cant remember where I heard this but I think its a dead feature that never really got picked up by the games industry. I hope I wrong because its obviously a brilliant idea.

I did lots of stuff on patches at uni, I might have a stab at it at some point.
Title: new technology test
Post by: Silent Warrior on November 30, 2003, 12:03:31 pm
redmenace: Well, I'm actually an old veteran of a sort (hooked up with VBB a month or two before FS2 was released - I think I was UberFanBoy or something when they closed the place), and I've been lurking here a good while as well, but a welcome is still a welcome. :)

Fry_Day: You speaks teh Star Trek. :confused: But, I suppose I have nothing to do with it...

*Re-lurks*
*You hear sounds of intense sci-fi space-combat*
Title: new technology test
Post by: Bobboau on November 30, 2003, 01:42:20 pm
this can't be done with any form of vertex shader, vertex shaders are a one to one operation, so you can't have a shader that takes in thre veteces and spits out 6, hell you can't even have it take in three and spit out three, you can only have it take one and give one.

 so this iw why a hardwar tesolator is such a cool thing, and what I'm doing here is exactly what the technology was developed for, auto-maticly raiseing the poly count of old game models.

and I don't know if ATI realy abandoned the technology but nVidia was pesemistic about the whole idea the entire time, it seemed as if they wanted it to fail, so I wonder who your sources are in regards to it being dead.
Title: new technology test
Post by: Bobboau on November 30, 2003, 02:12:43 pm
http://www.ati.com/developer/CurvedPNTrianglesI3DG01.PDF
look about 3/4ths the way through, it give a nice explanation on the two normal coefecents
Title: new technology test
Post by: Drew on December 01, 2003, 03:04:12 pm
still dosnt work on my Radeon 9k
Title: new technology test
Post by: Solatar on December 01, 2003, 03:29:17 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Drew
still dosnt work on my Radeon 9k


Ditto, Radeon 9000 Pro here.
Title: new technology test
Post by: Taristin on December 01, 2003, 03:32:16 pm
I don't think it works until you have a 9600 or higher...
Title: new technology test
Post by: Wes on December 01, 2003, 10:24:31 pm
It still isn't working for me with the latest build in this thread that Bobboau has posted.
Title: new technology test
Post by: IceFire on December 01, 2003, 10:44:00 pm
Ahh neato, will have to try after exams over.  I've never really seen Truform in action before despite owning this Radeon 9700Pro for 6 months.  Time to try it out!

No, nVidia has never come up with a similar technique hardware side.  I'm sure they could, they just never did.
Title: new technology test
Post by: Bobboau on December 01, 2003, 11:16:45 pm
BTW the current build isn't as dramatic an effect, I'v set it up for the moment so it sort of forces the TH&L pipeline to behave sort of like a pixle shader, it doesn't actualy smooth the geometry out currently, but it does make it look much better
Title: new technology test
Post by: Fry_Day on December 02, 2003, 04:04:59 am
I believe TruForm was taken out of the Radeon 9000 line (That's up to and including the 9200) to save transistors, and therefore costs. The cards that are supposed to support TruForm are the Radeon 8500 and the 9600+.

TruForm will be thrown away, in favor of a programmable primitive engine in DX10, most likely, and I've never favored TruForm, since it cannot be used in conjunction with anything that requires silhouette data (Such as Stencil Shadows).
Title: new technology test
Post by: Bobboau on December 02, 2003, 10:26:15 pm
"programmable primitive engine"
:eek: I want!

I hope they don't totaly kill it, surely they can just have a fixed function type thing that has the current functionality
Title: new technology test
Post by: Flipside on December 03, 2003, 11:55:39 am
I suspect it likely it will 'evolve' into something else and re-appear.
Title: new technology test
Post by: redmenace on December 07, 2003, 09:44:45 pm
hey is the saphire brand of the 9600 pros worth buying or should I go with the power color brand?
Title: new technology test
Post by: ChronoReverse on December 07, 2003, 11:12:40 pm
Sapphire is pretty good.  Never heard bad things about it.
Title: new technology test
Post by: IncendiaryLemon on December 08, 2003, 12:21:42 am
The saphire boards are cut at one of the fabs ATI uses.
Title: new technology test
Post by: redmenace on December 08, 2003, 01:35:58 am
well I am worried about cooling, because it only has a heat sink and the power color boards have a fan and heat sink. Also there looks like the saphiore boards say there is a option for it to be a pro board or something like that. Is that with a flash utility?
Title: new technology test
Post by: Lightspeed on December 08, 2003, 06:58:49 am
do NOT buy an up-to-date Radeon without fan cooling.

Also, PowerColor (although its a pretty stupid name) is one of the best of the 'cheap' card producers out there. The imagage quality of Saphire cards is pretty bad, although they have a good overall performance. Just make sure you dont buy an SE card, and also do not buy any card produced by Club3d. Personally, I reccommend HIS and Hercules.
Title: new technology test
Post by: redmenace on December 08, 2003, 11:07:06 am
ah ok, but how much of a performance difference is there between the 9500 and 9600?
Title: new technology test
Post by: ChronoReverse on December 08, 2003, 01:29:32 pm
With the exception of the XT (since there's not counterpart), The 9500(Pro) actually had better performance than their counterparts in the 9600 series.