Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Stealth on November 26, 2003, 09:55:39 am
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What joysticks do you guys use? Post a picture of them:
Mine:
Primary(Logitech Wingman Force)
(http://i6.ebayimg.com/02/i/00/f7/e5/6c_1.JPG)
Secondary (Logitech Wingman Warrior)
(http://www.lorelei.org/ebay/wingman.jpg)
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that first one.
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Let's see. I have one of these:
(http://us.thrustmaster.com/news/images/hotas_history/small/tm-flcs.jpg)
And one of these:
(http://us.thrustmaster.com/news/images/hotas_history/small/f22pro.jpg)
And two of these:
(http://us.thrustmaster.com/news/images/hotas_history/small/tm-tqs.jpg)
Unfortunately both sticks are broken. My intent is to replace that whole setup with one of these:
(http://us.thrustmaster.com/products/images/hotas.gif)
Sure, its $269. But that's a small price to pay for ultimate control.
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[color=cc9900]Saitek X45 (HOTAS system, with rudder paddles on the back of the throttle):
(http://www.saitekusa.com/usa/images/product/pcp/x45.jpg)
Cost me £50 ($80 or so), and worth every bit. It's got enough buttons to drown a cat. And, if you use the mode switch to triple-assign the buttons, three cats. Mikhael, I'd seriously urge you to consider one of these rather than the cougar, it's one hell of a lot cheaper and it's one hell of a lot better.[/color]
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Saitek X36
(http://www.game-revolution.com/games/hardware/saitek_x363.jpg)
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Originally posted by Odyssey
[color=cc9900]Saitek X45 (HOTAS system, with rudder paddles on the back of the throttle):
Cost me £50 ($80 or so), and worth every bit. It's got enough buttons to drown a cat. And, if you use the mode switch to triple-assign the buttons, three cats. Mikhael, I'd seriously urge you to consider one of these rather than the cougar, it's one hell of a lot cheaper and it's one hell of a lot better.[/color]
Yeah, its cheaper, but it sucks ass by comparison.
From top to bottom, the construction of the Saitek is cheap and feels flimsy, while the Cougar is made of aircraft aluminum (17lb of it to be precise). On the Saitek, the springs and throws are all loose and mushy, while the Cougar has tight, strong springs and a smooth, solid throw. The Saitek has fewer hats (two less) and missing buttons (There should be one under the ANT knob) . The Saitek has that annoying missile button molly guard.
Then there's the whole programmability issue. The Thrustmaster HOTAS products are insanely programmable, up to and including running SCRIPTS and specifiying custom response zones for the axes. Speaking of axes, there's EIGHT of them.
Sorry, the X45 is a pathetic excuse for a HOTAS. It is firmly, squarely in the realm of 'game stick' trash.
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(http://www.itportal.it/review/hardware/joystick/logic/phantom2/1.jpg)
Ph34r
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[color=cc9900]mikhael, it's also $160 cheaper, by my reckoning. Mine is built solidly, the spring on the stick is very powerful, I count 4 hat switches and 6 axes (who needs more?), and the rudder paddles are extremely useful. Programmability is also there, you can create scripts and assign response zones for axes, and much more, just as you said. As for the little missile guard, I like it personally, but if you don't, just flip it back against the metal stand part and tape/glue it on. Or cut it off completely. There's a fair amount of metal in the damn things too, which gives rise to their weight.
So, um, are we talking about the same joystick here, or are you misinformed? Bearing in mind I own one?[/color]
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If the question were: 'Post a picture about the thing you play FS2 with', I would say: 'You can imagine a keyboard, can't you?' :)
I had(a long ago) a Quickshot 4-button 2-axis joystick. But it went our of stability and performance after years of X-wing playing.
I personally hate FS with joysticks, so the joystick is not the thing I deeply miss. I would rather have a pretty girlfriend. :)
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Having carefully examined the X45 in person, I have to say that if you think its got a solid throw or the springs are powerful, you've got weak arms or you haven't used a real, honest to goodness proper HOTAS stick.
A proper stick and throttle has, at the minimum
6x 8way hats
6x buttons
1x 2position trigger
2x analog knobs
2x 3 position switch
6x axes
Additionally, you must, at minimum be able to bind six different functions to each button, hat direction and hat rest position. You must be able to bind to button PRESS and button RELEASE. You must be able to send raw keyboard scan codes. Buttons must be aware of and respond to the state of other buttons. For axes, you must be able to define the throw down to the individual step--even if what you put there doesn't necessarily make sense in terms of an axis throw (for example, throwing far left all the way not only rolls you left but cuts your forward thrust and engages your right lateral thrusters , while firing your retros). You must be able to choose pure digital or analog for your axes. You must be able to assign an axis to BUTTONS instead of an analog throw.
No other stick and throttle meets all of those criteria.
Yeah, I've messed with the X45, and it just doesn't even come close.
Oh yeah: none of that force feedback crap. I hate that in a stick.
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I don't have a photograph handy, but I'm using a Logitech Wingman Extreme Digital 3d. It's very good and another plus is that it's so heavy that it can be used as weapon:D ...........:nervous:
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(http://mywebpages.comcast.net/ksickafoose/images/joypad.JPG)
:p
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[color=66ff00]Got a sidewinder force feedback pro (see other thread :D ), bloody brilliant stick, really good to play podracer and anything flight related (getting knocked around by beam cannons is... interesting ;) ).
Also got a saitek p150 pad, good for fighting games and my snes emulator. :nod:
[/color]
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Originally posted by mikhael
Having carefully examined the X45 in person, I have to say that if you think its got a solid throw or the springs are powerful, you've got weak arms or you haven't used a real, honest to goodness proper HOTAS stick.
[color=cc9900]If you insist. But, I'm perfectly happy with what mine is, so I won't argue on preference.[/color]
A proper stick and throttle has, at the minimum
6x 8way hats
6x buttons
1x 2position trigger
2x analog knobs
2x 3 position switch
6x axes
[color=cc9900]The Saitek X45 has almost all of that. Except the 2-position trigger and two of the hats. Remember the price difference, though.[/color]
Additionally, you must, at minimum be able to bind six different functions to each button, hat direction and hat rest position. You must be able to bind to button PRESS and button RELEASE. You must be able to send raw keyboard scan codes. Buttons must be aware of and respond to the state of other buttons. For axes, you must be able to define the throw down to the individual step--even if what you put there doesn't necessarily make sense in terms of an axis throw (for example, throwing far left all the way not only rolls you left but cuts your forward thrust and engages your right lateral thrusters , while firing your retros). You must be able to choose pure digital or analog for your axes. You must be able to assign an axis to BUTTONS instead of an analog throw.
[color=cc9900]All check. Using old versions of the programming software, though. For some reason the newest non-NT versions don't support all the functions. But then, I haven't checked recently. They've probably fixed it by now.[/color]
No other stick and throttle meets all of those criteria.
[color=cc9900]Not quite, no, but $160 extra for a 2-position trigger and two hats?[/color]
Yeah, I've messed with the X45, and it just doesn't even come close.
Oh yeah: none of that force feedback crap. I hate that in a stick.
[color=cc9900]What force feedback?[/color]
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I've got a Saitek X45 and Logitech Wingman. The Saitek's fine for me as I'm not willing to pay that much (more like I can't), but it is a bit too flimsy. I keep tipping it over. :p
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Saitek Cyborg Gold AKA 3D.
It is simple single stick with 4 axes.
One expression summarises it's beauty:adjustable ergonomy
Another it's faults:cramped button layout
A deciding factor:price
I'm satisfied with this stick I bought it to replace my old Quickshot Super Warrior (that's one hell of a stick in its own category), and move on to a purely digital device.
It's precise, and although not necesserily the best, the spring and suspension of the stick are smooth and handy, unlike the Logitech rubber ring - I had my troubles with the Wingman Warrior - NEVER AGAIN!
The downside of the Cyborg is the button layout - it's impossible to handle with a single hand, so I'm practicly down to 3 axis and 4 buttons + 1 hat, instead 2*8 buttons.
The problem is that it's not enough to map everything and I like to have my hands near the apropiate contol all the time.
The problem is due it's extreme ergonomy - it can be tuned to anyones had - left hand's included.....so the buttons aren't set up for your pinky....
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I used to use a Logitech Wingman Extreme Digital 3D but, as I said in Maeg's thread, it's rotation has never worked and the throttle has just started to go. I'm thinking about replacing it with either Logitech's Freedom 2.4 cordless stick or their 3D Pro stick (links in Maeg's thread). I'm leaning toward the latter though since it's AUD$50 cheaper and doesn't have any batteries to keep replacing. Another Extreme 3D is tempting (it's the same price as the 3D Pro) but with only 8 buttons it's next to useless for keyboard-independent FS playing
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Odyssey, I pay for quality.
Yes, another $160 dollars ($269 total) is worth it for a stick with that many more axes (its got two more), that much more programmability (no, the Saitek cannot come close to the Thrustmaster for programmability. See below. No other consumer stick does. I've done my research), and the right feel (The Cougar is an authentic F16 stick and throttle, molded straight from the official USAF specifications. Its made of 17lb--yes POUNDS--of aircraft aluminum).
Between the two previous Thrustmaster sticks and two previous Thrustmaster throttles I've owned over the past eight years, I've spent over $600. I run these sticks into the ground. Yeah, it might seem expensive to you, but I don't spend lots of money on top of the line graphics or sound cards, nor the fastest processor, nor the most memory. I save that money for my HOTAS gear.
When I fly, I don't even have a keyboard on my desk, nor a mouse. I put everything into the stick and throttle. My hads are always on the controls--all the controls. I don't have to reach for a keyboard for some obscure command, because its already right there under my fingertips. The X45 isn't capable of that. By losing two hats, you lose 96 possible functions (108 if you map HatCenter, but that's just fruity). With the X45, you don't have the rich programmability. Can you make the trigger ask what particular combinations of other buttons have been pressed? Can you make the throttle react differently based on the position of a hat? Can you convert the X and Y axes to U and V axes with just a button press? No, you can't. Its not possible with any version of the Saitek programming software. It is possible with the Thrustmaster though.
Let me put it in another way, a way a modder might understand. I could spend the money on 3ds Max or Lightwave, or I could settle for Truespace3. Sure, Truespace3 is cheaper, but Lightwave (or 3dsMax) is the Right Thing.
So yeah, the HOTAS/Cougar is worth $269, but the Saitek X45 is not worth $75, my opinion.
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Originally posted by mikhael
Sure, its $269. But that's a small price to pay for ultimate control.
your gonna pay that much for a ****ing joystick? you dont have much of a night life do you mik.... :rolleyes:
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[color=66ff00]This thread is giving me the 'My stick is bigger than your stick' vibe. ;) :D :lol:
[/color]
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(http://www.techextreme.com/images/articlepics/techextreme/cyborg_gold.jpg)
The Saitek Cyborg 3D. Excellent for lefties. I hope to upgrade to this over christmas:
(http://www.saitek.com/uk/images/product/pcp/newsmall/cyborg_evo.jpg)
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Originally posted by TopAce
If the question were: 'Post a picture about the thing you play FS2 with', I would say: 'You can imagine a keyboard, can't you?' :)
(snip)
I personally hate FS with joysticks, so the joystick is not the thing I deeply miss. I would rather have a pretty girlfriend. :)
Ameeehhhhhhn, brother. :D
Well, I guess I'm just not joystick-inclined. ;)
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All you keyboard fliers are weirdos. Sick, perverted weirdos.
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yeah i didn't say "what do you play FS with" purposely because i know many people don't play with a joystick, they use the keyboard, myself included. (well, i started out playing with a joystick, but went to keyboard in mid 2000). i still use a joystick for many, many games though. :)
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(http://download.trust.com/_images/products/300/13276.jpg)
quite enuff :)
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looks good :)
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got a sidewinder 2. Don't use it much save for Crimson Skies ( don't even use it for FS2 anymore, I use keyboard+mouse: I turn with both, keyboard to reach the enemy fast, then mouse to play sniper. sounds strange, but it's deadly :p ).
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[color=cc9900]mik, I can see you're one of the die-hard sorts, so I won't continue arguing to save your wallet. My only point, for anyone else listening, is that for $80, the Saitek X45 is bloody good value compared to practically any other joystick on the market, given that it has almost the same amount of features as something that costs around $269. Hell, if it's a shed-load of features you want, get a Saitek and a $5 keyboard, then you'd be laughing all the way to the bank. In the unlikely event that the Saitek breaks, then you've still got enough money left for two more and a little pocket change besides. I don't see how you can argue the other way around on value.
Um, about the programmability thing, I haven't even tried to do most of the things you've listed, but I do know one thing for sure - with a little button press, you can change the axes to do something else. So your research is questionable. And anyway, what kind of crazy games are you playing that need that many features? I struggle to find enough things to fully map onto the Saitek in any game I have as it is, and that's without even playing around to a massive degree with programmability.
And, using your modder's analogy, if it was my own money that got me Lightwave, I wouldn't bother. I'd stick with Truespace, Milkshape, Blender, whatever. Better to be ingenious with functions (I barely scratch the surface with Lightwave's featureset to achieve what I want, I don't trust most of the features to do it for me) than to be out of pocket for the next 5 years (on my scale).[/color]
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Originally posted by Kalfireth
The Saitek Cyborg 3D. Excellent for lefties. I hope to upgrade to this over christmas:
(http://www.saitek.com/uk/images/product/pcp/newsmall/cyborg_evo.jpg)
The Evo's pretty sweet looking ,... but for me I'm looking into the Cyborg Force Feedback
(http://www.saitekusa.com/usa/images/product/pcp/cyborg-force.jpg) I just hope it works better than my Cyborg 3D, it had a up/left jump in it for some reason so I really never got to use it.
Currently I'm still plugging with an old MS Sidewinder Force Feedback (Can't recall the exact model and too lazy to look for it) best stick I had before this was a Gravis Eliminator Precision Pro, not a bad buy at $20 and the Precision button was sweet for pinpoint aiming at max Kayser range during SW matches :D
*EDIT* As for the X-45, mine was a pretty good quality stick,..I just never really got used to having the rudders on the bottom of the secondary stick, much prefer having a twist stick feature,...and since I've not found a reasonably priced set of pedals,...my X 45 is merely a dust magnet.
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
All you keyboard fliers are weirdos. Sick, perverted weirdos.
[color=66ff00]Damn right. It's just sinister. Sinister I tell you!
[/color]
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Originally posted by Odyssey
I don't see how you can argue the other way around on value.
Is it a 'value' if you pay to get less than you want? Not really.
And anyway, what kind of crazy games are you playing that need that many features? I struggle to find enough things to fully map onto the Saitek in any game I have as it is, and that's without even playing around to a massive degree with programmability.
For programmability, I can point you to a nice list of games that can and do benefit from the kind of programmability that the Cougar has: Freespace1 and 2 (lots of functions not documented in the manual, but are there in the key mapping screens). Falcon4. IL2 Sturmovic. Every Jane's flight sim ever. Every Mechwarrior game after 2. Independence War 2. Independence War 1. Tachyon: The Fringe. Descent 3. Heavy Gear 1 and 2. Jane's AH64 Longbow 1 and 2. Microsoft Flight Simulator (all versions). X-Plane. That's a mere handful. You might struggle, but for those of us who do take it a little bit seriously, its not hard to exhaust the possibilities of the Saitek.
And, using your modder's analogy, if it was my own money that got me Lightwave, I wouldn't bother. I'd stick with Truespace, Milkshape, Blender, whatever. Better to be ingenious with functions (I barely scratch the surface with Lightwave's featureset to achieve what I want, I don't trust most of the features to do it for me) than to be out of pocket for the next 5 years (on my scale).
As one of the people that paid out of pocket from Lightwave and Truespace, I did bother. Better to have the right tools than settle for garbage, if you can afford it.
Now, if you just want to play a shooter, like Crimson Skies, sure. Play with a Saitek. Its not a terrible game stick, but that's all it really is.
Side Note: I know the X45 isn't a force feedback joystick. I was listing that as something that should never be found on a serious stick and throttle. That's silly game-stick stuff. Same goes for a 'twist' axis on the joystick itself. That doesn't have any place on a serious stick. Get rudder pedals, map it to a rocker switch or button pairing, or do without.
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I use the same joystick as odyssey
(saitek x45)
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Originally posted by Odyssey
[color=cc9900]Saitek X45 (HOTAS system, with rudder paddles on the back of the throttle):
(http://www.saitekusa.com/usa/images/product/pcp/x45.jpg)
[/color]
Same here.
And Warrior5 as a secondary :D
(dun have a pic of that one though)
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um... Does that Saitek X45 have force feedback? That thing looks cool!
But I need my force feedback. I like that on my Microsoft Force feedback pro.
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Originally posted by ubermetroid
um... Does that Saitek X45 have force feedback?
Nope
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My old joystick was one of these:
(http://www.aquillar.com/Aq/Games/phoenix/images/Phoenix2.jpg)
Bought new from Sam's Club for $49. Still have it, but a bunch of the buttons have worn out and I have no way to fix them.
A Saitek X45 replaced it. (The X45 was the only HOTAS I could find in stores around here, and that expensive Cougar hadn't been released yet.) It may not be quite as programable as the Cougar, but with the 3 position mode switch and pinkie trigger you can get 6 different functions (or function sets for hat switches and axis) for each control. That's enough for me. The analog dials haven't proven to be useful in most games, (hard to find anything to use them for) though they're handy in FlightSim. The missile button cover can get annoying in active games (like FS2 or D3) but is very easily removable. The pinkie switch can alter the functions of any other control when it's pressed, or be used as a regular button. Considering the lack of HOTAS controllers out, I think it's a nice alternative to the Cougar for those who don't have hundreds of dollars just lying around.
In FlightSim I even have ATC controls setup so I don't have to use the keyboard to interact with ATC. And I still have plenty of possible functions I haven't bound to anything yet. (I haven't used the pinkie switch modes much for instance.)
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(http://www.game-revolution.com/previews/screens/xbox/steel_battalion/steel_battalion8b.jpg)
;7
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(http://www.intelligamer.com/hardware/swppusb/swpplogo.gif)
Sidewinder Precision Pro
not too fancy, only 9 buttons (16 if I felt like programming the shift button) 3 axes, but it gets the job done quite well :)
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Originally posted by Kalfireth
(http://www.game-revolution.com/previews/screens/xbox/steel_battalion/steel_battalion8b.jpg)
;7
Hardest ****ing game in the world.
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uhhh excuse me, have you ever played Janes F/A 18 Super Hornet? Took me like 2 days just to learn how to take off.
... or maybe that was another game... last time i played janes super hornet was like 1999...
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Thunder, that game almost made me buy the XBox. If there were other games that could use that controller, or that was a PC controller, I'd be all over it. Over the top controllers make me hot. :D
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I think we established that when you first posted about the Cougar ;)
Seriously though, the gamepad interface on the Xbox is just plain simple USB 1.1 except it just uses a different connector (and has an extra line to provide power for the rumble motors). Adaptors exist to convert this connector to a regular USB connector allowing you to plug Xbox pads into a PC. I can't see why that monstrosity wouldn't work just as well.
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Yeah, but would it work USEFULLY? ;7
I admit, I'm a bit of a freak about my stick and throttle. Once you've used a good setup, its hard to even sully your hands on Logitech or Saitek stuff. There's this feel to Thrustmaster HOTAS gear that just says "quality". I'm not talking about hte Guillemot stuff that has been put out under the TM name (TopGun, etc), just the HOTAS gear that was Thrustmaster's bread and butter for so many years.
Its finely crafted. Its perfect. Its just 'right'. I don't know how better to express it. In the end, I really think the money is justified.