Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Baron MacDoblin on November 28, 2003, 09:45:24 pm
-
Has anyone seen the trailers for this movie? It's looking very good, I'm quite eager to see it. I also understand the distributor is giving "sneak peaks" tomorrow. Personally, I can't wait.
-
Another "white people are evil" movie. I can't wait for it to (hopefully) burn and die.
-
You say "another 'white people are evil' movie" like white people aren't evil. Everyone is evil. Anyway, I didn't get that vibe about the movie at all. I got a "americans in japan are arrogant stuck up pricks"--an idea that is borne out by my experiences with my fellow americans there.
Anyway, the movie looks pretty cool and I'm looking forward to seeing it--though it'll be on DVD or PPV, since my wife has no interest.
-
That one is definately on my must see list, so I'll be going to see it.
-
Originally posted by mikhael
You say "another 'white people are evil' movie" like white people aren't evil. Everyone is evil. Anyway, I didn't get that vibe about the movie at all. I got a "americans in japan are arrogant stuck up pricks"--an idea that is borne out by my experiences with my fellow americans there.
not any more evil than the japanese. and i don't know what the americans you were with were like, but they don't represent the whole country.
i'm just so sick of all these anti-western movies. dances with wolves and roots and what not. burn them all.
-
Originally posted by mikhael
You say "another 'white people are evil' movie" like white people aren't evil. Everyone is evil. Anyway, I didn't get that vibe about the movie at all. I got a "americans in japan are arrogant stuck up pricks"--an idea that is borne out by my experiences with my fellow americans there.
Well, until relatively recently every nation in the West looked down on the Japanese. The world used to be a hell of a lot more racist place, especially when you go back into the 19th century and before.
-
Originally posted by Carl
not any more evil than the japanese. and i don't know what the americans you were with were like, but they don't represent the whole country.
i'm just so sick of all these anti-western movies. dances with wolves and roots and what not. burn them all.
Guess the truth hurts. The people I was around, Carl, were my fellow US Navy sailors and american tourists. As a culture, we don't seem to behave very well when we go overseas. We're not evil, no. And it not just white people, either. However, as far as ethnic groups with long, bloody histories that touch the entire planet, Europeans (and by extension americans) have had a damned impressive run. The single longest and bloodiest and ugliest in recorded history. Its not indicative of you, or me, or Shrike (i only mention Shrike because I'm responding to him too) or the rest, but it is history that should be learned from.
Originally posted by Shrike
Well, until relatively recently every nation in the West looked down on the Japanese. The world used to be a hell of a lot more racist place, especially when you go back into the 19th century and before.
I've got a wonderful book around here somewhere called "Lies My Teacher Told Me", which examines and debunks a lot of the mythology that gets taught as American (USAian) "history". One of the best, and earliest, examples given is the of Columbus' discovery of North America (with a side discussion of the other cultures that discovered it earlier, like the Chinese and the Vikings). Apparently, in Columbus own diaries, there was this amazing shift in attitude toward the natives of Haiti. When he arrived, he described them as intelligent and friendly and the most wonderful of people. Within a few years, however, after Spain had decided the island would make an excellent location for a colony, he wrote that they were savage, beast-like and of sub-standard intellect. Of course, in the intervening time between the first and second entries, he had become convinced that the island could make him rich.
Obligatory Explanatory Note: the Columbus information is taken from the historical diary of Columbus, not from American "history" text books. Some might decry this as "revisionist history", but I'd have to disagree on the grounds that the original source should hold far greater authority than some textbook from 500yrs after the fact that claims to be authoritative, but provides no evidence of its claims.
-
what lie does that debunk? that colombus was a nice person? i've never read that in a school book.
-
Originally posted by mikhael
However, as far as ethnic groups with long, bloody histories that touch the entire planet, Europeans (and by extension americans) have had a damned impressive run.
only because we got the tech first. any other group would have done the same. just look at the africans with their tribal warfare. imagine that spreading across the globe.
-
yeah we stoped praiseing Colombus bout... 15-20 years ago (I didn't know the Chineese found the Americas)
I can beleve US Navy sailors and tourists act like arrogant stuck up pricks. but surely there mustbe some normal people, maybe some students or busness people (ehh, maybe not) that help to counter act the idiots
-
Originally posted by mikhael
I've got a wonderful book around here somewhere called "Lies My Teacher Told Me", which examines and debunks a lot of the mythology that gets taught as American (USAian) "history". One of the best, and earliest, examples given is the of Columbus' discovery of North America (with a side discussion of the other cultures that discovered it earlier, like the Chinese and the Vikings). Apparently, in Columbus own diaries, there was this amazing shift in attitude toward the natives of Haiti. When he arrived, he described them as intelligent and friendly and the most wonderful of people. Within a few years, however, after Spain had decided the island would make an excellent location for a colony, he wrote that they were savage, beast-like and of sub-standard intellect. Of course, in the intervening time between the first and second entries, he had become convinced that the island could make him rich.
Obligatory Explanatory Note: the Columbus information is taken from the historical diary of Columbus, not from American "history" text books. Some might decry this as "revisionist history", but I'd have to disagree on the grounds that the original source should hold far greater authority than some textbook from 500yrs after the fact that claims to be authoritative, but provides no evidence of its claims.
Ok, but what does that prove? Nothing. Singling out Americans in reference to the movie is silly, because that was the prevailing western attitude towards Japan at that time.
-
I single out americans, Shrike, because I am one. In particular, I was an american in Japan, with other americans. I can't really say what its like to be a Canadian in Japan, or an Englishman in Japan, now can I? Based on the previews I've seen of the movie, its like this: some Japanese warlord is going against tradition and wants a westerner to teach them a new way to fight. They hire an arrogant american war hero to do the teaching. The warlord gets killed, and the arrogant american gets captured, and ends up having to learn a bit of humility and how to get by in fuedal japan. he ends up learning to respect the culture and going native and helps defend his new home against his former countrymen. I don't know if that's the plot, or what. That's just the feeling I get from watching the extended trailer in the theatre right before Matrix Revolutions. I never got the feeling that this is one of Carl's "Hate Whitey!" movies. I only respond to Carl, because he brought it up.
I mention the book in passing, because it provides very real, very clear examples of the things that European cultures have done over the centuries. The US is an example of a European culture, regardless of which continent we happen to be on. It does not prove anything, but merely expands on an idea.
Originally posted by Carl
only because we got the tech first. any other group would have done the same. just look at the africans with their tribal warfare. imagine that spreading across the globe.
Shows how much world history you know. I seem to recall the Chinese had gunpowder AND rockets for hundreds of years before the Europeans. It took European warring to turn fireworks into siege weapons. Its not about who had the technology first, its how it was used.
Originally posted by Bobboau
I can beleve US Navy sailors and tourists act like arrogant stuck up pricks. but surely there mustbe some normal people, maybe some students or busness people (ehh, maybe not) that help to counter act the idiots
Yeah, there's a few, but they're the vast minority. I did my best to blend in while I was there. I was quiet, respectful, attentive, polite, and most importantly, considerate. I was one of the few. Its no wonder we catch such bad raps everywhere in the world. We swagger around swinging our dicks everywhere we go, declaring our superiority.
Meh. I'll shut up. I'm letting my own prejudices get out of control, just as bad as the idiots I was talking about.
-
Originally posted by Carl
not any more evil than the japanese. and i don't know what the americans you were with were like, but they don't represent the whole country.
i'm just so sick of all these anti-western movies. dances with wolves and roots and what not. burn them all.
That doesn't seem to me to be the best analogy ... the Indian situation was very much a race vs. race movie, where as Last Samurai gives me the impression of being Culture vs. Progress. Why? Well, the Samurai were an anacronism in 1876 - and everybody knew it. Hell, if you look at the trailer, you see the one guy say flat-out "This is the end of the Samurai". Moreso, it was in many ways a deliberate sacrifice - the Indians milked the white settlers for all the guns and horses they could get, while the Samurai's defining feature is in his refusal to advance with the times. This is less a white power movie than a sort of romanticized tragedy about change - you could probably change the name to The Last Cowboy and get a similar effect.
I could be wrong, of course, in fact I'm almost certainly - I haven't seen Last Samurai, or Dances With Wolves for that matter. Still, though the Samurai may be as distant a memory as the cowboy Japan is still around and :nervous: neuroutic as ever. I don't see why we westerners should feel bad :)
Digression - I can find a striking parallel in the story of King Kamehameha of Hawaii (also to be made into a big-budget epic) and his unification of the Hawaiian islands through a combination of diplomacy and kicking the ass out of his enemies with British guns. Would that be considered an anti-western movie? (Especially since Hawaii is no longer an independent nation).
-
And, referring to mikhail, I'm pretty sure tourists in general, and military tourists in particular, are the lowest breed of scum to ever roam the Earth :)
-
Originally posted by mikhael
Shows how much world history you know. I seem to recall the Chinese had gunpowder AND rockets for hundreds of years before the Europeans. It took European warring to turn fireworks into siege weapons.
only because they had the insite first :p
-
I wonder... What, exactly, is this need y'all have to be loved over the entire planet? And how does burning any evidence to the contrary help anything?
Anyway. Movie. Never heard of it. Will have to find out if it's crap or not shortly, I suppose, sounds kinda interesting in a Hollywoodish way.
-
I saw the trailer and it looked pretty good, can't say that Tom Cruise really inspired me to go see it though, I don't like him, he's one of THEM
-
Is this movie supposed to have any historical basis? Cos somehow I can't believe 19thC Japan would allow foreigners to enter the coutry and lead their armies. No offense to the place, but Japan has had a hella isolationist and xenophobic history...
-
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Is this movie supposed to have any historical basis? Cos somehow I can't believe 19thC Japan would allow foreigners to enter the coutry and lead their armies. No offense to the place, but Japan has had a hella isolationist and xenophobic history...
If it does have any historical basis, it's probably about as accurate as U-571 or Braveheart. Hollywood is notoriously reluctant to acknowledge events as they truly happened. Hey ho.
-
Whaddaya mean? The Americans cracked Enigma, right? Right???
Anyway. It sounds, from what little I've heard, that it doesn't matter whether it's historically accurate or not, it's got a (weakish)point that has little to do with genuine history.
And besides, it's been obvious for a long time that Hollywood thinks no movie will sell at all in the US unless it prominently features Americans. Hell, look at League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Which is funny, because a lot of the most famous movies of all time didn't have much of anything of the US in them at all.
-
Originally posted by Stryke 9
Whaddaya mean? The Americans cracked Enigma, right? Right???
Actually, a combination of Tom Hanks and Jon Bon Jovi singlehandedly defeated the forces of Nazism AND gave the commies a right evil eye to keep them in place.
If it hadn't have been for Hollywood then I'd be speaking German right now whilst swigging beer from a stein and eating bratwurst.
I love stereotypes.
-
You know, and this completely devoid of politics or anything of the sort, speaking German, drinking a stein of beer, and eating bratwurst sounds pretty good right now.
-
Originally posted by Stryke 9
You know, and this completely devoid of politics or anything of the sort, speaking German, drinking a stein of beer, and eating bratwurst sounds pretty good right now.
Go to a Bavaria night. Sounds pretty odd but they are incredibly good fun and the people that go to them tend to know how to have a LOT of fun.
-
Go watch Shogun, that's both historically apropiate and good fun.
-
Originally posted by Stryke 9
You know, and this completely devoid of politics or anything of the sort, speaking German, drinking a stein of beer, and eating bratwurst sounds pretty good right now.
Mit Lederhosen?
-
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Is this movie supposed to have any historical basis? Cos somehow I can't believe 19thC Japan would allow foreigners to enter the coutry and lead their armies. No offense to the place, but Japan has had a hella isolationist and xenophobic history...
I know that the Emperor of Japan started hiring foreigners to train his army in the 1860s, and in 1877 there was a samurai rebellion. So yeah.
-
Right. I wanted to know if it was based on fact or not before I started scoffing at it and making meself look daft. Still doesn't sound like a very Japanese thing to do. Oh well.
Still not watching the movie, BTW
-
Oops, double post. My bad.
-
yeah it's an awesome movie... one of the few good movies i've seen lately :doubt: really good... i think it's going to do very well.
Timeline on the other hand, sucked... anyone else think so?
EDIT: Don't know if it's really based on fact, but it's supposedly a true story, and the events they show in the movie make you believe it's true.
-
One of my housemates worships the Timeline novel, and is bitterly upset about the film.
Loser :D
-
Ouch. I loved Timeline (the book). How could they mess it up, though? Its not a terribly complex story to begin with. It should have been a straightforward screenplay to write.
-
Timeline looked interesting, i was going to wait for some reviews before i decided to see it.
-
Originally posted by mikhael
...and I'm looking forward to seeing it--though it'll be on DVD or PPV...
PPV? Power Point Video?? :p
-
Timeline was actually a book? Wow. More and more movies are becoming adaptations of novels and story books and comics these days.
-
Originally posted by Sandwich
PPV? Power Point Video?? :p
No, Parisian Porno Voyeurs.
-
Originally posted by Baron MacDoblin
No, Parisian Porno Voyeurs.
Huh?
-
Originally posted by Sandwich
PPV? Power Point Video?? :p
no, Pay Per View.
It's like renting a movie, but you do it through your remote control... pay like $2.55 or something.
Yeah the Timeline book was awesome, so therefore i thought the movie would be too, but as usual in this case, i was bitterly disappointed :doubt: :-/
And that Paul Walker has got to be one of the worst actors i've ever seen.
-
Originally posted by Stealth
no, Pay Per View.
It's like renting a movie, but you do it through your remote control... pay like $2.55 or something.
Thank you, but I'm quite aware of what PPV is. I was just being me. ;)
-
... oh...
just figured you didn't know what the acronym meant ;)
-
Originally posted by Carl
only because they had the insite first :p
You call the conversion of a celebratory device into a weapon of war insight?
Oh, right, you call it insite. I stand corrected. :doubt:
-
Who wouldn't? You should see what can be done with cow**** these days...
-
Re: American Samurai
The only foreign samurai was an Englishman who was washed ashore in Japan after a shipwreck, but that was during Tokugawa's time. I'm told that there were a number of American mercenaries fighting in Japan at the time that "The Last Samurai" is set, but they were just grunts.
Oh, and I swear 1/2 the posters in Shibuya are for that damned film. Not out for another week though.
He's there for a long time. And even then, he still winds up using katana like sabers and speaks very basic japanese. As for Samurai status, its not really something one could 'become'. Occasionally, someone might rise up enough in society to be considered a samurai, like Toyotomi Hideyoshi, but for the most part samurai were born samurai and died samurai regardless of whether they lived lives of samurai or not. And I don't think Tom Cruise is ever really called a samurai. The 'Last' samurai is suposed to be the guy who he joins (Katsumoto i think) and I think he's based on Saigo Takamori, who is often refered to as the last samurai.
On a side note, the was once a black samurai, 'Yasuke'. He was brought to Japan as a slave and Oda Nobunaga somehow got ownership of him. They dressed him up in Japanese clothing and bestowed all sorts of titles upon him, but most likely it was a way of mocking him because they thought he looked funny. So it would not have been that easy to be legitamatly accepted as a member of the samurai class, especially if you looked different.
The English guy, Something or other Adams, was accpeted into Tokugawa's court, but like Cruise, was never considered a samurai.
Edit: Found this http://hsv.com/writers/jeffog/wa-hist.htm Apparently William Adams did get the rank of samurai, but I doubt most Japanese thought of him as anything other than an interesting foreigner.
If anyone's interested in the fuller story of the "real" foreign samurai - William Adams - I would recommend you pick up a copy of "Samurai William" by Giles Milton. I've just recently read it and it's a very detailed account of not just his life but also the other Europeans in Japan at the time, and their eventual banishment by Tokugawa Iemitsu.
His earlier book "Nathaniels Nutmeg" is a pretty good account of what these 17th Century Europeans were doing all over the Pacific in the first place.
-
Originally posted by Stryke 9
You know, and this completely devoid of politics or anything of the sort, speaking German, drinking a stein of beer, and eating bratwurst sounds pretty good right now.
The only German thing about me is my car.
*revs the engine on his Bavarian Motor Works 325i* :D:D:D:D
Can't speak German, never really cared for bratwurst, but the stein of beer I could go for. :cool:
As for Last Samurai, I've always been a fan of Tom Cruise and the samurai have intrigued me while I was studying martial arts (and I read Miyamoto Mushashi's Book of Five Rings, a book on samurai combat and philosophy), so I'll go see this movie.
Remember how I said I would watch Underworld just because it had Kate Beckinsale as a black-clad vampiress and hunting werewolves with silver nitrate bullets? Well, Last Samurai has Tom Cruise going medieval on the asses of the Emperor of Japan's troops with a katana (which is the only way to go medieval on someone's ass, really). 'Nuff Said.
-
Originally posted by Flaser
Go watch Shogun, that's both historically apropiate and good fun.
Better yet, read it, it's a fantastic book.
-
:nod:
Nothing beats a story on paper, nothing can grant that measure of immersion...even if due time constraints (films can't be that long).
-
Damn... I used to love that movie... "Domo Lord Torunaga-sama"he he... Learned a little Japanese from that mini-series... Now that Sir Richard Chamberlin has come all the way out of the closet (like we didn't know before), he's destroyed all denyability and I don't know how to feel about that... :lol:
As for bad Americans, yup they are everywhere. Worse part about is I'd give my left arm (cause I'm right handed ;)) to be in japan (a culture that despises Westerners) hehehe am I a glutton for punishment or what? I care not a whit as long as I can get my Anime and import game fix from the source of all Otakus!
:nod:
-
Originally posted by Star Dragon
As for bad Americans, yup they are everywhere. Worse part about is I'd give my left arm (cause I'm right handed ;)) to be in japan (a culture that despises Westerners) hehehe am I a glutton for punishment or what? I care not a whit as long as I can get my Anime and import game fix from the source of all Otakus!
You're so ****ing ignorant my eyes are bleeding. Before you claim that Japan is "a culture that despises Westerners", try living there for four or five years, you moronic ****wit.
I just saw The Last Samurai. Damned good movie. Damned good. Carl, it is certainly NOT a "kill whitey" movie. Tom Cruise (whom I generally despise) does a very good job. I'll probably go see this again, just so I can look at the scenery and listen to Japanese again.
-
I'll probably go see this again, just so I can look at the scenery and listen to Japanese again.
You mean watch guys charging cannons with swords get slaughtered en masse :p
-
Originally posted by Baron MacDoblin
You mean watch guys charging cannons with swords get slaughtered en masse :p
since only the last 10 minutes or so were actual fighting like you described, then .... no.
only about 10% of the movie was fighting, by far the majority was about the culture and life of the people
-
bah, probably won't be as good as ROTK.
But I'm not gonna judge it until I see it. Which is in about two months, thanks to whoever is in charge of our cinema.
-
Originally posted by Stunaep
bah, probably won't be as good as ROTK.
There are LOTS of movies that won't be as good as ROTK. It's VERY a rare film that can compete with a superbly well-made Tolkein epic. It seems like you're deliberately setting the bar a little high for Last Samurai, don't you think, Stu?
(Slightly off-topic) And although I think ROTK will very likely deserve a Best Picture Oscar, it probably won't get it, much to my chagrin... ah, well. :(