Hard Light Productions Forums

Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Liberator on December 16, 2003, 07:10:57 pm

Title: We're doomed
Post by: Liberator on December 16, 2003, 07:10:57 pm
While I believe that the creators of content should be paid an appropriate sum for their labors, I have yet to see a DRM system that is not invasive and doesn't remove control of what you can and can't have on your computer.

http://wired.com/news/business/0,1367,61625,00.html
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Kosh on December 16, 2003, 08:50:03 pm
There will be ways around it. There always are.
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Bobboau on December 16, 2003, 09:03:21 pm
OK so how is it going to stop me from sticking the headphone jak on the back of my computer into the mic jack of an other one and just recording  that way,
hell I wonder if I could just do it from the out to the in on the same one.
Title: We're doomed
Post by: IceFire on December 16, 2003, 10:27:08 pm
Nothing at all Bobboau...but its more difficult and probably not something that the average person will do...which is probably the point since as it stands now its very easy to copy music without even thinking about it.

The silver lining as I see it is that at least its not Microsoft and that the format is supposed to be an open standard that can't be used as leverage against smaller companies.  A big bonus over the Microsoft method of conquer and plunder.
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Toblerone on December 16, 2003, 10:35:30 pm
but the thing is, if you can hear it, you can record it. therefore, you can distribute it.

btw, i thought this was a thread about the comming DOOM3
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Admiral LSD on December 16, 2003, 10:49:38 pm
The problem with actively searching and exploiting flaws in DRM systems is that it'll do nothing to stop the development of the technology. All it'll succeed in doing is confirming the technologies necessity and helping to speed up the development of newer, more foolproof systems. The RIAA in particular won't back down until it finds a way to sustain it's hugely oppressive business model in the digital age and all the hackers are doing is helping them achieve that.
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Bobboau on December 16, 2003, 11:57:45 pm
well it only takes one person with the desire to copy it once, then they can distribute there copy to all the people of the world, and there ain't a damned thing any of these companys can do about it, I laugh at there pain
:lol:
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Admiral LSD on December 17, 2003, 01:10:07 am
Music isn't static, there's new stuff being released every day. Even if todays music is being distributed all over the world there's always tomorrow's music to try new DRM methodologies on. As long as that's the case it's not going to make one damn bit of difference whether todays DRM gets cracked or not, all that says to the RIAA is what methodology *not* to standardise on and to go back to the drawing board to plan out the next one.

Even though the RIAA is defintely starting to feel the pinch of the Napster generation it hasn't yet got to the point where the member-companies CEOs are forced to beg on the streets. Sure, they might have to accept a lesser model of private jet but even the lesser model is still probably worth more than we'll ever see in out lifetimes. There is no real "pain" atm, just a slight ache that can be dealt with with something like Paracetamol, it won't get any worse than that for a while giving them plenty of time to devise a DRM system that works the way they want it to.

Besides, there's always royalties on internet connections and digital storage media ;)

That way, they get a constant stream of revenue regardless of whether people are using them for illegal **** or not. The artists probably still won't but since when has the RIAA ever cared about them?
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Nico on December 17, 2003, 03:13:39 am
Quote
Originally posted by Admiral LSD
The problem with actively searching and exploiting flaws in DRM systems is that it'll do nothing to stop the development of the technology. All it'll succeed in doing is confirming the technologies necessity and helping to speed up the development of newer, more foolproof systems. The RIAA in particular won't back down until it finds a way to sustain it's hugely oppressive business model in the digital age and all the hackers are doing is helping them achieve that.


yeah, maybe, but hackers work faster, and for free :p
Honestly, that kind of stuff never lasts for long, and, well, never will.
I honestly don't care about the copy protection, I don't copy CDs, but I'm not happy with the fact I couldn't read them anywhere I want, so I hope it'll go down as fast as its predecessors.

Plus: Phillips? Arf, it's crap, no worries.
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Zarax on December 17, 2003, 03:19:42 am
Philips was one of the companies against copy protection on CDs if i remember well... it's not all bad...
And about MS DRM, they at least always give you the option to turn them off, so that you can copy your music wherever you want...
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Bobboau on December 17, 2003, 03:41:46 am
but how effective would a DRM system you can turn off realy be?
:)
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Nico on December 17, 2003, 03:50:27 am
Well, lol... well yeah, it's kind of useless :p
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Admiral LSD on December 17, 2003, 04:23:48 am
Quote
Originally posted by Nico
yeah, maybe, but hackers work faster, and for free :p


...which makes them a great way to test the integrity of this stuff. Why waste time, money and effort doing it yourself when it'll be faster and more effective to farm it off to people who'll do it for free? I'm sure the RIAA is throwing as many DRM methodologies out as it can to find out what works and what doesn't. All the hackers are doing is helping out the very enemy they're trying to fight (and for free!).

Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
but how effective would a DRM system you can turn off realy be?
:)


But just how long do you think you'll be able to turn it off for? ;)
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Fineus on December 17, 2003, 05:06:18 am
So what do you suggest? Let the companies do what they like and inconvenience everyone else at the same time?

Example:
I bought a CD, I enjoy the music on it and want to listen to it on my computer - perhaps at a LAN or when I can't be assed to switch CDs on my rather ropey stereo system or carry the CD around in my drive (I'm the kind of person who has music on when playing a game - so that means Winamp).

Wait, I can't. Some form of copy protection is in place that means I can't copy the music I paid for over to another format for personal enjoyment (note: Not distrubution or selling on to anyone else. The only person who hears this music from my CD is me).

Well thanks a lot copy protection agencies. A load of good you did protecting my interests there. Of course I've since found ways around it - but all its done for me is hinder my enjoyment of the music I paid for. Great.
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Nico on December 17, 2003, 05:12:42 am
Quote
Originally posted by Admiral LSD


...which makes them a great way to test the integrity of this stuff. Why waste time, money and effort doing it yourself when it'll be faster and more effective to farm it off to people who'll do it for free? I'm sure the RIAA is throwing as many DRM methodologies out as it can to find out what works and what doesn't. All the hackers are doing is helping out the very enemy they're trying to fight (and for free!).



still, they spend a lot of money creating securities that will be cracked and useless a month later. I don't care about details, in the end, their stuff never works.
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Sandwich on December 17, 2003, 06:32:29 am
I don't copy CD's, but I do enjoy downloading music - especially since I don't have a bat's chance in hell (who came up with that totally bizzare expression, anyway?) of actually finding said music for sale here. Part and parcel of life in a country that meshes state and religion.
Title: We're doomed
Post by: aldo_14 on December 17, 2003, 06:35:08 am
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
I don't have a bat's chance in hell (who came up with that totally bizzare expression, anyway?)  


I think you just did........ I've heard of a 'snowballs chance in hell' and 'like a bat out of hell', but never that.......
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Styxx on December 17, 2003, 06:43:26 am
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
Who came up with that totally bizzare expression, anyway?


Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
I think you just did...


:lol:
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Admiral LSD on December 17, 2003, 06:54:44 am
Quote
Originally posted by Nico
still, they spend a lot of money creating securities that will be cracked and useless a month later. I don't care about details, in the end, their stuff never works.


Eventually it will though and we'll have noone to thank for that except the freeloading hackers who made it possible. I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to that...
Title: We're doomed
Post by: diamondgeezer on December 17, 2003, 08:47:12 am
So you think sooner or later a truly unbeatable security measure will be put in to place? As much as I hate this smiley I have to use it: :doubt:
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Martinus on December 17, 2003, 09:32:40 am
[color=66ff00]Those freeloading hackers are partially responsible for the fact that your copy of windows is more secure, that it's a lot harder to copy your credit card details that you use to purchase stuff off the internet, that you don't have to shell out hundreds of pounds/dollars/[insert your choice of currency here] on software that only 'mostly' works.
They push software companies to upgrade and update; something those companies would just shrug off if they figured they could get away with it. I congratulate them, they push technological innovation forward.

As someone pointed out before, the fact that I can download music does not mean I am stealing music that I would normally have bought; I don't have the cash to buy all of those CD's so I wouldn't have got the music at all if the music was not available online.

BTW I agree with DG on this, they'll never create an unbreakable and profitable system.
[/color]
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Nico on December 17, 2003, 11:53:31 am
Quote
Originally posted by Admiral LSD


Eventually it will though and we'll have noone to thank for that except the freeloading hackers who made it possible. I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to that...


Hmm, I don't think so, but you know, if hackers don't break it, well, guess what, it won't be breakable :p What's the difference? :p
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Sandwich on December 17, 2003, 03:39:37 pm
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14


I think you just did........ I've heard of a 'snowballs chance in hell' and 'like a bat out of hell', but never that.......


Oh gawd I'm tired.... :lol:
Title: there is only one way to truly copy protect music...
Post by: Star Dragon on December 17, 2003, 03:53:13 pm
Microsoft willinstall cybernetic devices in people's ears. (To help fight the onset of hearing problems and improve teh quality of life, blah blah BS!) anyway now microsoft- and their qually evil twin the RRIA(sp?) now  control WHAT you hear and WHEN you hear it! no music for you EVER unless you pay a monthly subscription fee for "privilage" of enjoying the fruits of artists labours (while 90% of the profits are split my the big M and RRIS). Oh yet my friends, big brother is comming sooner than you think... Piracy in any form will stop teh day they start controlling people and do away with that inconvienent "Free Will" concept.

;7  "This message brought to you by Shivans For Understanding, an Alien Outreach progrm (tm)2003...
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Sandwich on December 17, 2003, 03:58:02 pm
Dude. What are you on?
Title: We're doomed
Post by: karajorma on December 17, 2003, 05:00:52 pm
Quote
Originally posted by IceFire
Nothing at all Bobboau...but its more difficult and probably not something that the average person will do...which is probably the point since as it stands now its very easy to copy music without even thinking about it.


I remember when .mp3 was beyond what an average person would do cause it was too complicated. As soon as DRM becomes popular someone will find a way to automate copying files to .mp3 (or preferably .ogg) by simply doing what Bobboau suggested and then DRM will become completely useless.
Title: We're doomed
Post by: 01010 on December 17, 2003, 07:11:49 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
Dude. What are you on?


:: Appears ::

I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you.

:: Disappears ::
Title: We're doomed
Post by: phreak on December 17, 2003, 07:26:47 pm
CD Player Line Out -> Sound Card Line In.  hit record in goldwave and play on the CD Player.  Can't really beat that.

it should work :nervous:
Title: We're doomed
Post by: Kazan on December 17, 2003, 07:27:34 pm
Lesson 1 of software engineering: There is no such thing as a perfect system

Lesson 1 about crypto: Given enough time and effort ALL crypto can eventually be broken

Lesson 1 about copyprotect: it _always_ fails