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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sandwich on January 14, 2004, 03:34:39 am

Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Sandwich on January 14, 2004, 03:34:39 am: http://www.ats-online.org/files/movies/224helicopter_kills.mpg

Whoa... :eek2: :eek:
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: aldo_14 on January 14, 2004, 03:51:42 am: This isn't the link off bluesnews, is it?

Bit sick, really.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Zarax on January 14, 2004, 03:55:12 am: Ouch... next time better to play dead with such a kind of threath
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Sandwich on January 14, 2004, 04:00:45 am: I don't know where it's from - my brother sent it to me on MSN.

I wonder what that structure they were messing with on the left is/was? On one hand, it didn't look like the Amreicans took very kindly to it being messed with, but on the other, they didn't seem to mind riddling it with little holes, either.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: aldo_14 on January 14, 2004, 04:16:11 am: On the left? Pretty sure it's / was a tractor.

EDIt - yep, sure it is. You can see plough marks at the back, and it's got a steampipe for the engine.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: 01010 on January 14, 2004, 07:46:18 am: That's what I like to call overkill.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Ashrak on January 14, 2004, 09:13:37 am: Quote
Originally posted by 01010
That's what I like to call overkill.

what about A10 bomber witgh clusterbombs hitting a building or troops?
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Hunter on January 14, 2004, 09:33:23 am: There is a reason that footage doesn't get put into Documentaries.

:no:
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: J3Vr6 on January 14, 2004, 09:33:44 am: How is a cluster bomb attack on troop positions an overkill? Can you think of a quicker way to neutralize large quantities of soldiers without the use of napalm?

This footage reminds me of the video of the marine gunship in Afghanistan taking out targets and what-not. Anyone see that one? I think it was on here before.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Drew on January 14, 2004, 09:45:33 am: poor iraqi dudes.

[hijack] To bad, if Saddam had dissarmed when he was supposed to we wouldnt have to do that to em.... [/hijack]:rolleyes: :p
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Bobboau on January 14, 2004, 09:55:00 am: is that an aaa gun there going to in the begining?
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Dark_4ce on January 14, 2004, 12:59:26 pm: Holy ****! I mean those guys really dissintegrated, with it being thermal vision too, you can see... Well the mess left behind...

*shudder*
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Ashrak on January 14, 2004, 01:52:54 pm: Explosive rounds.....what you expect?
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: aldo_14 on January 14, 2004, 01:54:10 pm: Quote
Originally posted by J3Vr6
How is a cluster bomb attack on troop positions an overkill? Can you think of a quicker way to neutralize large quantities of soldiers without the use of napalm?

This footage reminds me of the video of the marine gunship in Afghanistan taking out targets and what-not. Anyone see that one? I think it was on here before.

The after effects of cluster-bombs are the problem.... besides which, I'm pretty sure a MOAB, etc, would have the same effect. Sure, it;s pricier and a smidgen harder to deliver, but it's not going to leave stuff around to blow upo civvies in the future.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: J3Vr6 on January 14, 2004, 02:01:58 pm: His comment was regards to it being overkill, which is what I was responding to. Cluster bombs are extremely effective on troops and airstrips.

The only issues that cluster bombs have is that some don't detonate, and that could be said about any explosive device. Yeah, they look like ration packets but that's besides the point. There are hundreds of people who get killed by landmines yearly worldwide that were placed there 30-40 years ago, but it still doesn't take away from their effectiveness at stopping troop and carrier advancement during the war they were placed in.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: mikhael on January 14, 2004, 02:02:26 pm: That looked like the tactical display in an Apache, and that looked more like the chin gun, not cluster bombs :rolleyes:

I find it interesting that they shot the guy messing with the tractor but chose not to shoot the wounded guy. They shot the pickup instead. Its obviously deliberate.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: aldo_14 on January 14, 2004, 02:28:54 pm: Quote
Originally posted by J3Vr6
His comment was regards to it being overkill, which is what I was responding to. Cluster bombs are extremely effective on troops and airstrips.

The only issues that cluster bombs have is that some don't detonate, and that could be said about any explosive device. Yeah, they look like ration packets but that's besides the point. There are hundreds of people who get killed by landmines yearly worldwide that were placed there 30-40 years ago, but it still doesn't take away from their effectiveness at stopping troop and carrier advancement during the war they were placed in.

My point - which is really aping that of human rights organisations - is that a large-ish number of unexploded bomblets are harder to find and disarm (and thus more dangerous) than a single large bomb. Basically the old argument over weapons that can kill a long time after the war... and that they should never be used unless it is absolutely necessarry and unavoidable - which i can't really see for cluster bombs.

That is going a bit OT, anyways. Especially as it's the gun that fire, i'm sure, and it's presumably the gunsight camera (isn't that the one used in the Apache cockpit?).

Oh, and remember it's better to badly wound or cripple your enemy than kill them, for fairly obvious reasons.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Dark_4ce on January 14, 2004, 02:36:07 pm: Quote
Originally posted by mikhael

I find it interesting that they shot the guy messing with the tractor but chose not to shoot the wounded guy. They shot the pickup instead. Its obviously deliberate.

But they did shoot the wounded guy!
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: mikhael on January 14, 2004, 02:42:36 pm: at the end there, the gunner doesn't aim at the guy on his back. He takes rather deliberate and careful aim at the corner of the pickup truck and blows it up. He could have rotated the turret a half degree to port and up about a half a degree and put the shells directly in the guy's stomach.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: mikhael on January 14, 2004, 02:44:39 pm: By the way, what's the context of this clip? What is its provenance?
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: neo_hermes on January 14, 2004, 02:47:46 pm: Spoiler:
I thought i saw peices of the 2nd person fly Behind where he stood
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: aldo_14 on January 14, 2004, 02:48:10 pm: (took a while to figure this out and write it)

I think the audio goes
(Gunner, then pilot so far as I can guess, from the firing on the truck. Second truck they refer to here is the car)

"wait for movment by the truck"
"movement right there"
"roger, he's wounded"
"hit him"
"I'm hitting the truck"
"hit the truck, go forward of it and hit him"

EDIT
Gunner sounds almost reluctant, weirdly enough... but he is told to go for him by the pilot. i'm not sure, but i think it may be Yugoslavia based on the simple fact that there's a tractor there)
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Gloriano on January 14, 2004, 03:04:58 pm: whoa:eek: really terriple clip i seen dead's but something like that sees it's just terriple
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Rictor on January 14, 2004, 03:17:54 pm: Yup, saw this on Blues a few days ago. What I have to say has already been said. They were obviously farmers, and posed no threat. But I guess they all look alike don't they...

aldo: Hard though it may be to believe, a tractor is a common farm vehicle, and has occassionaly been sighted outside of Yugoslavia.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: aldo_14 on January 14, 2004, 03:31:10 pm: I am, as you well know, considering the recent theatres of war which the Us has been engaged in... of those, the one which seemed most likely to have farmland (as it appears to be - i.e. ploughed, seems a bit rutted) is, IMO Yugoslavia. Tenous, granted, but there is logic.

NB: they may not have been obvious farmers. for one thing, it appears to be nighttime, which isn't particularly popular time for ploughing the fields round my bit.

That open-top truck could, for example be used to transport troops or partisans. Without knowing the origin, I can't pass judgement on the validity of the attack - they could very well have been enemy guerillas meeting up in an isolated region, for example. Or potentially drug dealers, although I'm not sure if Us operations use that level of force (maybe in Columbia)

Regardless, it is somewhat tasteless that someone decided this should be made public.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Zeronet on January 14, 2004, 04:39:19 pm: According to ABC news, they obtained the footage and showed it. Appears to be 3 iraqi insurgents handling a cylinderical object 4 feet or so, maybe a RPG through the thermal camera of an Apache.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/apache_video_040109.html
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: mikhael on January 14, 2004, 05:05:02 pm: Quote
Originally posted by 01010
That's what I like to call overkill.

From the ABC article:
Quote
Army officials acknowledged that the 30 mm cannons used by the Apache gunners were far bigger than what was needed to kill the men, but said it is the smallest weapon the Apaches have.

Yeah. That's definately overkill.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Sandwich on January 14, 2004, 05:17:01 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
According to ABC news, they obtained the footage and showed it. Appears to be 3 iraqi insurgents handling a cylinderical object 4 feet or so, maybe a RPG through the thermal camera of an Apache.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/apache_video_040109.html

Ahh, good spot. I was hoping someone could come up with a news article on the video.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: 01010 on January 14, 2004, 05:17:19 pm: Quote
Originally posted by mikhael

From the ABC article:

Yeah. That's definately overkill.

An Apache against infantry would have more than a slight advantage I should imagine and a 30mm round I would think wouldn't take too long to tear you in half given a few rounds.

That is however only in the context of this video, I know nothing of the situation prior to or after this.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: mikhael on January 14, 2004, 05:50:11 pm: I was agreeing with you 01010. The apache's 30mm cannon IS overkill against three guys on the ground.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: 01010 on January 14, 2004, 06:10:24 pm: Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
I was agreeing with you 01010. The apache's 30mm cannon IS overkill against three guys on the ground.

That's ok, I thought you were being sarcastic but you weren't. Guess the ole' sarcasm detector ain't working right today. :)
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: aldo_14 on January 14, 2004, 06:16:21 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
Appears to be 3 iraqi insurgents handling a cylinderical object 4 feet or so, maybe a RPG through the thermal camera of an Apache.

Heh. Guess I was about 1000km out, then....:o
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Admiral Nelson on January 14, 2004, 07:00:09 pm: Its worth noting that this clip is only about half of the original.
In the first part, the guy in the pickup truck stops, gets out, and talks to the guy in the larger truck. Next he seems to look straight at the Apache, and seems to realize that they are being watched. He then reaches back into the pickup truck, and pulls out what looks like a RPG or shoulder fired SAM. He runs out into the field to the left, drops the launcher, and runs back. This is the object the guy pulls the cloth cover off of in the clip.
There is also a lot of radio discussion back and forth between the Apache crew and their controller of what they are seeing,and what they should do. Clearance to fire doesn't come for 5 minutes or so.
30mm cannon rounds aren't overkill against guys with man portable missles, if you ask me.... I'm not sure that anyone watching this video really has enough context into the situation to pass judgement on the crew's actions....
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: mikhael on January 14, 2004, 07:49:46 pm: If there was a clear threat, then unloading with the chin gun is justified. That doesn't change the fact that its overkill, Admiral Nelson. However, if, as you say, they went into the field and dropped the launcher and walked away, unloading the with the chin gun is NOT justified (based on the limited information we have here).

Of course, I'm perfectly willing to err on the side of the Apache pilot and the gunner. They're the ones that are there and I'm not. I know for a fact that if I was in any doubt about my own safety, I'd have carved my initials in them with the chin gun and not given it a second thought.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Rictor on January 14, 2004, 08:03:47 pm: Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
I am, as you well know, considering the recent theatres of war which the Us has been engaged in... of those, the one which seemed most likely to have farmland (as it appears to be - i.e. ploughed, seems a bit rutted) is, IMO Yugoslavia. Tenous, granted, but there is logic.

Yeah, I know man.

Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14

Regardless, it is somewhat tasteless that someone decided this should be made public.

I think its just the opposite. I think its great that this was made public, it gives us a glimpse into the actions of the US military, which would otherwise go totally unquestion. I don't mean this in a completely negative way. Its better to have public scrutiny than have none, regardless of who is right or wrong.

As for the SAM, I don't really know. Its seems like a excuse made up after the fact. I'de have to see the full video to make a judgement. And even then, why did they finish off the wounded guy? They could have just as easily left him there, he was in no position to threaten their safety, and ground troops could have been called in to apprehend him...
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Deepblue on January 14, 2004, 08:34:01 pm: Because he would have healed, then would be very, very angry with the military.

And if you think of the other options the apach had (Hellfire anyone?) it is less overkill then it could have been.
(http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/ah64d003.jpg)
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Rictor on January 14, 2004, 08:36:12 pm: No, what I meant was not to let him get away, but to apprehend him. He was in no shape to flee, they could have left him there for or or maybe even days and he wouldn't have run off.

Oh and, yeah I agree about the overkill. If thats the lightest weapons they got, then there's not really much choice.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Deepblue on January 14, 2004, 08:38:59 pm: Do you think he would rather lay dying on the ground with his guts blown out? Or do you think he would rather end it?
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: demon442 on January 14, 2004, 10:49:37 pm: An Explanation

The pilot and gunner claim that the chin turret was the smallest weapon they had(most likely true), but the human-rights advocates claim that it was overkill. And what would you have them do; if they could not use anything more than a sling-shot on well-armed militia that intend to kill you and the 2 other people with you?

To be perfectly honest, I see nothing wrong with this clip. It is a standard military reaction to a probable hostile threat. While I do not advocate the US invading Iraq like Germany invaded Poland, I am but one voice in a sea of cattle.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: mikhael on January 15, 2004, 12:13:06 am: Quote
Originally posted by demon442
The pilot and gunner claim that the chin turret was the smallest weapon they had(most likely true), but the human-rights advocates claim that it was overkill. And what would you have them do; if they could not use anything more than a sling-shot on well-armed militia that intend to kill you and the 2 other people with you?

The chin turret IS the smallest thing on an Apache. There is no doubt about that. Even so, overkill is when the weapon used goes far beyond the force necessary to take down the target. In this case, its overkill. That doesn't make it wrong for them to have used the turret though. If the men posed a threat (IE, if they really did have an RPG or a LAW or whatever), then using the chin gun was the best option the apache crew had. It doesn't matter if the weapon was overkill: dead is dead. Anything more than deadly force just doesn't matter.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Bobboau on January 15, 2004, 12:34:22 am: I don't see what the problem is here, this is just about exactly what I would expect from a random guncam clip from a war

yeah, what's the point here, it doesn't matter if they used a butter knife or a hellfire missle, they guys are dead, honestly given the choice I'd rather have heavier ammo used to take me out, I'd be itty bits before I knew what hit me, smaller weapons I would get slowly torn apart, alive longer == more pain (this is only valid if it is assumed the guy IS going to die).

now Apaches were built to fight tanks, they used the smallest weapon avalable to them when they saw some people unloading what to them looked like anti-arcraft weapons, it doesn't take a stratejic master to figure out what you'r going to do

but it's nice to see people giveing them the benifit of a doubt.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: neo_hermes on January 15, 2004, 12:36:34 am: moo
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Knight Templar on January 15, 2004, 12:54:24 am: I don't really see the point in calling it overkill either...

Were they supposed to see that there were only 3 guys, go home and find a smaller gun and come back? I'd think overkill would be if they started firing missles at the guys or called in backup...
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Sandwich on January 15, 2004, 03:54:16 am: Calling it overkill isn't the same as saying that they made a bad choice of weapons. It's simply saying that the objective could have been achieved with far less powerful weaponry.

The fact of the Apache not having anything less then the 30mm simply justifies its use as opposed to something less devastating. Nothing more, nothing less.

...unless you wanted the pilot to open the window and shoot at them with his sidearm... :doubt:
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Bobboau on January 15, 2004, 09:54:53 am: well given that no other (less powerful) weapon was available, is it realy overkill?

just curius on relation of the defenition
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: aldo_14 on January 15, 2004, 10:18:54 am: Quote
Originally posted by Rictor

I think its just the opposite. I think its great that this was made public, it gives us a glimpse into the actions of the US military, which would otherwise go totally unquestion. I don't mean this in a completely negative way. Its better to have public scrutiny than have none, regardless of who is right or wrong./B]

In that sense, yes... but the risk is always that this sort of thing becomes presented as entertainment, or a curiosity. I don't think it was intended to be released - I'm not sure if that's even allowed under the Geneva convention - and i'm not sure there are many people able to objectively judge this sort of thing, given its very nature.

Quote
Originally posted by Rictor

As for the SAM, I don't really know. Its seems like a excuse made up after the fact. I'de have to see the full video to make a judgement. And even then, why did they finish off the wounded guy? They could have just as easily left him there, he was in no position to threaten their safety, and ground troops could have been called in to apprehend him...

Well, generally speaking it'd be risky to send in ground troops - there's the possibility the guy is holding a grenade or something. Not to mention that it would divert resources from other areas, and that the nearest infantry unit could be tens of kilometers away. There's also no real way ascertain how badly he was injured - the assumption would have to be made that, so long as the enemy is moving, they're a threat.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: SadisticSid on January 15, 2004, 10:32:49 am: I don't see what's so sick about it, it's not like you can tell whether the bits that are blown about the place are human flesh or ground or pieces of truck. In this way it's not much different from a bomb camera.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: aldo_14 on January 15, 2004, 10:40:22 am: Quote
Originally posted by SadisticSid
I don't see what's so sick about it, it's not like you can tell whether the bits that are blown about the place are human flesh or ground or pieces of truck. In this way it's not much different from a bomb camera.

Imagine it was someone you knew or were related to.... it's the principle of the thing.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Fineus on January 15, 2004, 11:29:35 am: It's certainly voyeuristic...
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: 01010 on January 15, 2004, 12:13:58 pm: Almost pervy... :nervous:

But no, to all the people that questioned me calling it overkill, look up what the word means please. I said nothing about whether or not I thought it was justified, just that using a cannon that's normally used against metal armour, against flesh and bone is a wee bit excessive.

And yes, I understand they had no other options available, like Mik said, I'd have done the same thing.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Sandwich on January 15, 2004, 04:15:59 pm: Quote
Originally posted by SadisticSid
I don't see what's so sick about it, it's not like you can tell whether the bits that are blown about the place are human flesh or ground or pieces of truck. In this way it's not much different from a bomb camera.

Actually.... If it's brighter than the surrounding ground in an IR shot, it's..... warmer. Which means that yes, it's..... flesh.

*runs*
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Knight Templar on January 15, 2004, 04:58:01 pm: Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14

Imagine it was someone you knew or were related to.... it's the principle of the thing.

Yeah... boo hoo. That's what happens when you're in war with an enemy in your country and you carry something that appears to be an RPG around. Sure, it might be 'shocking' to see infared blobs of people get hit by explosive rounds, spraying body matter all o'er the place, but really, shouldn't video games and moves have dessensitised you guys to this by now? :p
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: aldo_14 on January 15, 2004, 05:12:21 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Knight Templar

Yeah... boo hoo. That's what happens when you're in war with an enemy in your country and you carry something that appears to be an RPG around. Sure, it might be 'shocking' to see infared blobs of people get hit by explosive rounds, spraying body matter all o'er the place, but really, shouldn't video games and moves have dessensitised you guys to this by now? :p

one minute it's IR film from a gunship, next it's a 3 hour video of soldiers being tortured and mutlilated released by the enemy.

For example.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Flipside on January 15, 2004, 05:15:10 pm: I hope and I pray that Computer Games don't desensitise me to be honest, because that would mean I'd be unable to tell the difference between fantasy and reality, and then I'd really be in trouble :(
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: 01010 on January 15, 2004, 05:18:26 pm: I've played games all my life and took great pleasure out of games like Carmageddon and killing people randomly in Vice City, watched countless violent movies even under 18 (shock) and have listened to enough violent and satanic music to make me next in line for the dark throne itself.

I feel terrible for watching three peoples lives end.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Knight Templar on January 15, 2004, 05:24:26 pm: Right, probably not best use of sarcasm ever.. meh.

And Aldo: That's a good point, but somehow I get the feeling this clip wasn't really endorsed or realised on purpose. Same with the other one from the gunship. how they got to media sources beats me though..
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: 01010 on January 15, 2004, 05:28:26 pm: I was aware it was sarcasm. :)

Just making a point in general that there are people who think that all people who play games are violent nutjobs who just need a right reason to nuke their school or something.

I don't see how an occupation can make you any less human really but then I tend not to think like stupid people.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Flipside on January 15, 2004, 05:31:55 pm: <----- Grew up in single parent family, has seen Childs play 3 and still hasn't murdered anyone.

Yep, nothing taken personally here, just hope it never happens :D
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Sandwich on January 15, 2004, 06:01:27 pm: Quote
Originally posted by 01010
...violent nutjobs who just need a right reason to nuke their school or something.

If one has the right reason, then what's the problem? :drevil:
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: 01010 on January 15, 2004, 07:20:24 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich

If one has the right reason, then what's the problem? :drevil:

Ah, touche.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Beowulf on January 16, 2004, 08:00:39 am: Actually, that isn't the whole clip. The real version shows the men handling an RPG at the sound of the helicopter. For some reason that was left out. I've seen the whole slip but I don't have it. I'll see if I can find it.

And yes, that thing with the large heat signature is a tractor.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: aldo_14 on January 16, 2004, 08:15:00 am: Quote
Originally posted by Beowulf
Actually, that isn't the whole clip. The real version shows the men handling an RPG at the sound of the helicopter. For some reason that was left out.

Probably because whoever posted it (came off of a UT newsgroup that link, I think) only wanted to show off the sheer...ooh...aah!..excitement of somebody dying in a fairly horrible and painful way.
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: J3Vr6 on January 16, 2004, 08:23:20 am: Anyone who finds the whole clip gets a cookie!
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Dark_4ce on January 16, 2004, 03:12:10 pm: Yeah, I kinda assumed there was a "bit" more to that footage. I mean, its rather silly that they'd send an apache to shoot the hell out of 3 farmers with a 30mm cannon. You know how much that ammo costs? Well, Sandwich should know...

*Looks at avatar*

tho I do think thats a slightly smaller caliber, you're donning. :D

IIRC, when I was in the army, Desert Eagle rounds cost about 5€ a piece, 3.62 FMJ cost about same or a bit lower, except for the aluminum rounds we had, which were a bit pricy. So 30mm rounds would cost a whole lot more....
But what the hell am I saying?! The US Army has a crapload of cash...
Title: Video footage of helicopter gunship kills
Post by: Sandwich on January 16, 2004, 04:44:46 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Dark_4ce
...You know how much that ammo costs? Well, Sandwich should know...

*Looks at avatar*

tho I do think thats a slightly smaller caliber, you're donning. :D

That's a 0.5 incher, which translates into 12.7mm, so yes, slightly smaller. :p