Hard Light Productions Forums

Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: Nico on January 30, 2004, 09:13:32 am

Title: transparency
Post by: Nico on January 30, 2004, 09:13:32 am
I posted this last week, for some reason the thread disappeared, so gonna post it again.
It's just some fast brainstorming anyway:
I don't like how transparency is dealt with right now coz, well, it doesn't work. I thought of an alternative way, which doesn't require a texture tag or anything, and should be quite nice looking:
you already know the invisible map, when you apply that to a poly, it won't show ingame. Now the idea is to duplicate that map code, so you have something like transparency2.pcx ( well, glass.pcx would be better, let's call it that way ). When you apply it, it does the same as the invisible map, excepted you can give it a specular map, just like on any regular texture. That way, the polys would not be rendered, but the specularity would.
Thoughts?
Title: transparency
Post by: CP5670 on January 30, 2004, 11:27:27 am
The usual pure green method seems to work fine for me, at least in 8-bit pcx files. This had issues on Glide but that's not used anymore in FS2_open.
Title: transparency
Post by: Nico on January 30, 2004, 01:06:27 pm
Hey, didn't think about green. Thanks, good point.
Title: transparency
Post by: Omniscaper on January 30, 2004, 02:15:42 pm
I recall the errors that happened in the SOvereign class when I was still testing it. You can use either green or have an alpha map of black through TGA's or DDS's to give it a null texture. At some point I went nuts in brainstorming I was gonna put glass in all starship windows. I realized that would be a bit too nuts. SPecular does make that nice affect though, but the problem was culling. You can see stars past the null textured zone despite the fact that there is an object behind it.
Title: transparency
Post by: KARMA on January 30, 2004, 02:41:25 pm
I think you have to put the object behind the window (namely a room or something similar) as a different subobject that the one whit the transparent poly. Nico and aldo verifyed this sometimes ago
Title: transparency
Post by: Omniscaper on January 30, 2004, 03:41:58 pm
So the object that is gonna be seen through the window must be a subobject of that window? I'll try it. Because I really wanna go nuts with the Galaxy class and model the Ready room and bridge to be visible through the glass. The Arboritum is already visible but there is no glass.
Title: transparency
Post by: KARMA on January 30, 2004, 04:54:13 pm
it just has to be a different subobject than the one with the windows.
for example you can have all the windows on the same subobject and all the internal bits in another.
But it's better if you make first a minor test, since I never did it on my own and i'm reporting you something little old, before HTL era
Title: transparency
Post by: Nico on January 30, 2004, 05:18:00 pm
voila. basically, just make the whole glass part a subobject. Or do the detailing behind the cockpit, it'll look so much better :) :
(http://www.swooh.com/premium/venom/fs2pics/Valk00.jpg)
Title: transparency
Post by: redmenace on January 30, 2004, 06:03:30 pm
I thought phreak was working on a high poly perseus interceptor though. Is that it. Cock pit looks great though.
Title: transparency
Post by: phreak on January 30, 2004, 06:13:07 pm
:wtf: i can't model crap.  not to mention TS3 ruins any chances of me learning

bob did a perseus when he hit the "smooth quad divide" button twice
Title: transparency
Post by: Carl on January 30, 2004, 06:26:40 pm
i think the pilot is a bit too large.
Title: transparency
Post by: Omniscaper on January 30, 2004, 07:28:25 pm
What does your hierarchy look like? I'd like to try that with an UBER version of the Galaxy Class with visible bridge and ready room.

You should use the High resolution textures of the Perseus from the original Freespace 1. I believe its avaiable with the Freespace 1 Port.
Title: transparency
Post by: KARMA on January 30, 2004, 08:24:40 pm
he doesn't even know what a TS hierachy is eheheeh
:p
Title: transparency
Post by: Taristin on January 30, 2004, 09:10:58 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Nico
voila. basically, just make the whole glass part a subobject. Or do the detailing behind the cockpit, it'll look so much better :) :
http://www.swooh.com/premium/venom/fs2pics/Valk00.jpg


Eh? I don't see any spec on the window regions. :confused:

And why does thoat skin look so low res? :wtf:

Oh well, that's a cool mesh. :yes:
Title: transparency
Post by: Bobboau on January 30, 2004, 09:10:58 pm
oh, I think we forgot to mention,we fixed that green transparency zbuffer bug, so you can now use the green transparency thing and it will work like you would expect it to
Title: transparency
Post by: Omniscaper on January 30, 2004, 10:02:20 pm
Meaning........ no more negative space? Objects behind greened objects will render? COOL! Does the same apply to alphas for TGA's and DDS?
Title: transparency
Post by: Bobboau on January 30, 2004, 11:02:13 pm
yes
yes
no
Title: transparency
Post by: Omniscaper on January 31, 2004, 05:07:57 pm
Bollocks!!! Its alll good. Is there anyway I can create a transparency that has some gradual fade to opaque. Or is there only a particular shade of green that Freespace recognizes as a transparent zone.

I'm still trying to use transparency to create a cloud layer for my Earth model. Its a cloud sphere overlapping the earth sphere.
Title: transparency
Post by: Bobboau on January 31, 2004, 07:22:50 pm
for that particular useage you could probly try to use an alpha mask, just make sure the atmoshpere is in a seperate submodel
Title: transparency
Post by: Flipside on January 31, 2004, 08:37:30 pm
A standard PCX won't work for that Omni, only pure green, 0, 255, 0 is considered transparent by the FS2 engine, you would have to use what Bobboau suggests :)

Flipside :D
Title: transparency
Post by: Bobboau on January 31, 2004, 09:35:06 pm
yeah, let me clarify that a bit, use a TGA with an alpha mask as a seperate subobject for the atmoshpere, this sort of thing won't work very well for most other situations (ie on a fighter cockpit) becase that sort of alpha blending requires sorting polygons by distance and that would slow things down, however, a planet in the bacground will already have everything  sorted for it if the atmosphere is simply put as a submodel and thus rendered after the main hull objec it will be rendered in the correct order, wich is why this is a single odd situation were alpha blending will currently work.
Title: transparency
Post by: Omniscaper on February 02, 2004, 03:07:20 am
How do i get an object in the background? I made a sphere with the land texture. I made a larger sphere with a cloud texture (black and white).

My hierarchy:

Earth
...    Sphere1
......             Clouds
.........                  Sphere2
.........                  light01

Is that correct?

The cloud texture is a 32-bit TGA. The image is of the clouds, white clouds against black background. The alpha channel is the same image. Should I make the base image something other than the cloud picture? I'm getting confused. Should I make the alpha green?
Title: transparency
Post by: Bobboau on February 02, 2004, 07:58:23 am
what you have should work
Title: transparency
Post by: Omniscaper on February 02, 2004, 11:47:42 am
Actually it didn't. I had to reverse it, to get it to render correctly.

Clouds
.....Sphere2 (textured with white TGA with Cloud image alpha)
...............Earth
.........................Sphere1
.........................light

But it works!!! I'll have screen shots up shortly. Now how would I approach adding one more layer of clouds. Since the Cloud sphere has now become the parent objects, I can't get the second cloud layer to render correctly.

Test Hierarchy:

Clouds    <(parent name)
..........sphere2 <(object)
....................clouds <( sub name)
..............................sphere3 <(object)
.............................................Earth <( sub name)
....................................................Sphere1
....................................................Light
Title: transparency
Post by: KARMA on February 02, 2004, 11:51:48 am
can he make a rotating cloud layer?
actually it would be damn cool:)
Title: transparency
Post by: Bobboau on February 02, 2004, 11:59:36 am
just make a second cloud subobject, as subobjects seem to get rendered first (I seem to remember this now) make it the subobject after the planet and smaller than the larger cloud layer
Title: transparency
Post by: Omniscaper on February 02, 2004, 12:16:37 pm
Karma, that is the goal, cloud movement. Animating it takes up far toom much memory.

Bobbaou,

Like so:

Cloud
.....sphere2
..........Earth
...............sphere1
...............Light
..........Cloud2
................sphere3 (smaller than previous)
................light
Title: transparency
Post by: Bobboau on February 02, 2004, 12:19:23 pm
you do know that in reality the clouds would be moveing way way way to slow for you to see them, right

not that any of this 'reality' has any baring on FS, but an interesting point none the less

yeah, I'm thinking that'll work
Title: transparency
Post by: Deepblue on February 02, 2004, 01:21:49 pm
screenies?
Title: transparency
Post by: Omniscaper on February 02, 2004, 02:16:39 pm
SUCCESS. I know about reality. It sux. Thats why i like to play and eventually get involved with making ALTERnate realities.

EARTH!!! With 2 moving layers of clouds! Looks better when playing with.

(http://www.penguinbomb.com/omniscaper/WIPS/Earth1.JPG)

(http://www.penguinbomb.com/omniscaper/WIPS/Earth2.JPG)

(http://www.penguinbomb.com/omniscaper/WIPS/Earth3.JPG)

Its still a work in progress. Sharper textures will be used in localized areas VS the sphere mapped single texture. I think the model could still be optimized. At the moment it has 3 spheres and a cube core to play as parent object. Total poly count is at 17k. I believe the cloud layers could use a shave. I just hope the shading issue won't reveal the polys.

As you can see, I just hit clipping range with that earth model. You can tell my the abrupt end to the sphere edge. I believe its 30000 km away or something like that. I'm gonna have to reduce its size to be able to see the planet this far and still see it in it's entirety.

I have experimented with planetary glows by using a glowmap with, inthis case, a radious of 60000. There are perspective issues with a planet this close and large, but I'll mess with different sizes and distances. I wonder if Truespace has a FACE FRONT ALWAYS texture mapping?

Any ideas on how to make planetary glows?
Title: transparency
Post by: Singh on February 02, 2004, 02:20:16 pm
wow!
:shock:
that......is soooo....pretty(lack of better word to describe it)*
Title: transparency
Post by: KARMA on February 02, 2004, 02:33:59 pm
with glow you mean the fading atmosphere?
well, let me think:
you may model a flat disc directly behind the planet model, and facing the play area. The disc will be little wider than the planet+ clouds, textured with a cyan plain colour, and an alpha opacity layer to have it fading around the borders.
Or maybe a sphere with flipped faces (you'll see only internal faces) but the problem is that in this case it'll not fade
the overexposure effect would probably generate a better effect, but the problem is that it has not been implemented in the code
Title: transparency
Post by: Lightspeed on February 02, 2004, 02:37:06 pm
I think the clouds are a bit overkill (theres not THAT much of them :)

... And they need to be closer to the surface. Clouds are really, really close to the planetary surface.

Still, if you get a atmosphere glow working it could be pretty nice :)
Title: transparency
Post by: Omniscaper on February 02, 2004, 02:40:28 pm
I'm playing with the transparency levels right now. I think thin whisps would look kool as the first layer. Like i said before, in motion, you really get to see more of the topography. Its gonna be fun making more localized cloud textures. I'm off to the NASA website for satellite photos. Any other sites where I can get textures (royalty and $$$ free)

Using 3dsmax procedural textures don't cut it for me. "noise and fractals" get close, but no cigar for believability for me.
Title: transparency
Post by: kasperl on February 02, 2004, 02:41:56 pm
well, if you just want clouds, you could try some weather sites, and do your best at photoshopping. dunno about copyright there though.
Title: transparency
Post by: Bobboau on February 02, 2004, 10:16:29 pm
there was some site that offered free satalite spheremaps of earth, they updated ever hour or so, don't remember were it was though, and it was a ***** to find, and I used google
Title: transparency
Post by: Setekh on February 03, 2004, 07:58:58 am
Hey, they worked! Awesome, I've never seen someone use the transparency so effectively. Well done. :yes: