Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: karajorma on February 27, 2004, 05:07:27 am
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The various religous threads that are running at the moment threw up a question I've wondered about a couple of times and I'd appreciate an explaination for.
Marriage is supposed to be a till death do us part thing in the christian tradition. When you die you're reunited in heaven.
One thing I've never understood is why the church allows remarriage after a spouse dies. If you really believe that when you die you'll be reunited with your dead loved ones how do you choose between your two wives? What if you've been unlucky enough to lose several wives? Do you get to build up a harem in heaven?
I'd be interested in hearing from non-christians on this one too :)
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I'd be more interested in hearing from christians on it :p
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Oh I want to hear from them for certain :)
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Christians believe that we will be reunited in heaven, but not reunited in marriage. Marriage (ie. the closest relationship that can ever be formed between two people) here on earth is only meant to be an echo, or a shadow, or a foretaste of the marriage between God and his chosen people - together in relationship forever. So in heaven, the 'foretaste' will be gone, because the real thing has arrived. Get it? :)
In any case, this question was actually raised when Jesus was walking around and people were trying to think up questions that he wouldn't be able to answer. Here's a quote from Matthew, this is the 22nd chapter, verses 23-33:
[q]23That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24"Teacher," they said, "Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him. 25Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27Finally, the woman died. 28Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?"
29Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you, 32'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'[1] ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
33When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching. [/q]
Anyway, that's the Christian view. :)
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and that's supposed to be an answer?
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Okay, to be clearer:
If you really believe that when you die you'll be reunited with your dead loved ones how do you choose between your two wives?
You won't have to choose between either wife because you will not be married to either of them if you are in heaven.
What if you've been unlucky enough to lose several wives? Do you get to build up a harem in heaven?
No, you don't, because the only marriage there is in heaven is between God himself and his people. :)
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so the "reunited in heaven" part is bull?
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Reunited in heaven, absolutely. But the reunification that is (literally) infinitely more important is with God. Christians believe that the purpose of a created soul is to be in perfect relationship with its creator. So picture this: your whole family ends up in heaven. God, the perfect creator of the universe is there. If he really is worth calling God, all else would fade into insignificance. Sure, you'll have relationships with other poeple, but they will be good because you're in relationship with the creator of relationships.
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and that's supposed to be attractive? hell for me, please :p
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Depends on your definition of attractive, Venom. :)
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Think i prefer the option of reincarnation.
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So to put it in more earthly terms you'll be too high to care that both of your now ex-wives are in heaven with you?
One other thing steak I doubt that most christians believe that cause I doubt that a lot of them have thought about it that deeply :) You hear most people talk about heaven and it just sounds like Earth++
Still leaves me wondering what Jehovah's witnesses (who don't believe that they'll automatically live in heaven) think :)
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Reincarnation has a few very interesting points. :) The main bummer I can think of is that people hardly ever learn from their past lives. Like, supposing they can even progress to the stage of belief and understanding in the workings of Buddhism (unless you're talking about reincarnation just 'on its own') thought where they say to themselves: "okay, I'm a grasshopper this time, I must have screwed up last time", they still can't really learn much from what has passed. Especially with the idea of reincarnation a la Buddhism, if someone could clear this up for me that would be nice. What part of 'you' is it that is reincarnated into each different being after the life/death cycle? Because from my understanding, you'd become something intrinsically different in transferring from, say, a non-moral animal to a moral human. Or what is the Buddhist stance of the morality among animals? Is their suffering, like human suffering, caused by greed, and if so whose? Humans' or other animals or both?
And besides, why exactly do you prefer that option over others, aldo? :)
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Originally posted by karajorma
So to put it in more earthly terms you'll be too high to care that both of your now ex-wives are in heaven with you?
One other thing steak I doubt that most christians believe that cause I doubt that a lot of them have thought about it that deeply :) You hear most people talk about heaven and it just sounds like Earth++
I wouldn't say that you'd be too high. I'd say that you have your eyes and desires fixed on something which is higher than you and your ex-wives, the Object of whom marriage was designed to pre-empt, kinda thing. :)
Yeah, I realise that. You'll always find that some people prefer not to think too deeply about whatever they believe in - I know Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, atheists, all sorts; and in none of the groups are 100% of them the type who question everything and will look for reasons why. In every area you will find people willing to just 'go along' with things, because they don't feel the need to question. I do think that it's a fallacy that heaven is a lot like Earth... as if it were just a super-charged version of Earth with better scenery and less pollution. But I encourage thinking about it on all occasions - if things only work when you don't think about them, that's pretty questionable. ;)
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Originally posted by Nico
and that's supposed to be attractive? hell for me, please :p
I never understood this viewpoint. By definition, hell isn't "fun". So why prefer it over heaven, which nobody really knows much about aside from that it will not have any sadness, tears, etc... ?
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I've wrestled with that too, Mike. I came to the conclusion that the only desirable thing about hell would be that it was your desired choice... but the fact is that the ramifications of that desired choice are so undesirable, it's like drinking a cup of bitter poison and being pleased and saying "hey, it tastes like crap, but I chose it!". Not that it entirely makes sense, but I haven't been offered a better explanation yet. :p
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Originally posted by Sandwich
I never understood this viewpoint. By definition, hell isn't "fun". So why prefer it over heaven, which nobody really knows much about aside from that it will not have any sadness, tears, etc... ?
To me, it sounds like heaven is like being swallowed by a huge, mindless entity, and you'll become, well, nothing, after all, just some part of some huge, bloated thing. Not much for me.
anyway, I don't "prefer" anything, I don't believe in them, remember?
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That sounds more like the Buddhist absorption into the stream of consciousness than heaven. But I understand your point. I used to argue with that myself, saying: that's ridiculous, the Bible says we will all become like God eventually. Well, if we are all perfectly like God when we reach heaven, won't we all be identical? That would royally suck - I'd prefer to stay on earth where I could be different. But now my understanding of heaven is quite different - along the lines of we'll actually become more of ourselves than we were here.
I heard it explained like this once: if you lived in a land permanently covered by shadow, where everyone relied on hearing, touch, taste and smell to live rather than sight, you would get used to things. You would recognise people as different by the sound of their voices, the texture of their skin, their scent, and.. uhh... what they tasted like. :p Anyway, suppose you propose that they moved to a country where there is actual sunlight. But they protest, because they say, once you go into the light, won't you all look the same? After all, exactly the same light shines on everyone, therefore won't it bounce off everyone in the same manner and make everyone look the same? How would we tell them apart, where would there be individuality? Of course, we lightdwellers know that light actually brings out differences, it doesn't mute them. We don't become less when we enter God, we become more. That's how I think of it, anyway, it's an imperfect analogy but it helps. :)
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Originally posted by Setekh
Yeah, I realise that. You'll always find that some people prefer not to think too deeply about whatever they believe in - I know Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, atheists, all sorts; and in none of the groups are 100% of them the type who question everything and will look for reasons why. In every area you will find people willing to just 'go along' with things, because they don't feel the need to question. I do think that it's a fallacy that heaven is a lot like Earth... as if it were just a super-charged version of Earth with better scenery and less pollution. But I encourage thinking about it on all occasions - if things only work when you don't think about them, that's pretty questionable. ;)
The reason why I mentioned Jehovah's witnesses was cause they actually believe that they will remain on Earth after it's been upgraded following armageddon. Which does make me wonder what they will do about remarriages.
The famous explaination of Islamic heaven has a pretty good explaination though too. You get 20 virgins to keep you company. Who needs the wife? ;7
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Originally posted by Nico
To me, it sounds like heaven is like being swallowed by a huge, mindless entity, and you'll become, well, nothing, after all, just some part of some huge, bloated thing. Not much for me.
anyway, I don't "prefer" anything, I don't believe in them, remember?
a) the Christian heaven is not that. We will have a deeper relationship with God. Sure there will be allot of people there, but God knows everyone one of them, including how many hairs they had on their heads! Now that spells out knowing.
As for marriage, it is temperal, and is meant for procreation (sex), happiness, and some other stuff I can't exactly think of ATM. In heaven ppl will be like angels and no procreation (sex) is needed.
Hell, I've heard several different things. One idea I heard was that in hell you'll be all alone, not that there won't be anyone else in hell, but it'll be like you are alone....forever. But whatever hell turns out to be it will be your choice to go there. God basiclly says choose me or or not me. If you don't choose me you'll end up alone/in hell, but if you choose me you'll end up in heaven. That may be a simplification of it, but it drives the point home.
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Originally posted by karajorma
The reason why I mentioned Jehovah's witnesses was cause they actually believe that they will remain on Earth after it's been upgraded following armageddon. Which does make me wonder what they will do about remarriages.
Hmm, good question. If you can find out more from their site (http://www.watchtower.org) I'd be curious to learn.
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Originally posted by karajorma
The reason why I mentioned Jehovah's witnesses was cause they actually believe that they will remain on Earth after it's been upgraded following armageddon. Which does make me wonder what they will do about remarriages.
The famous explaination of Islamic heaven has a pretty good explaination though too. You get 20 virgins to keep you company. Who needs the wife? ;7
Well, JW's aren't christian either. I argued with one once. He was all over the place. He said the Bible was infallible, then he told me something else that I knew contridicted with the bible, I showed him the contridiction and he didn't even try to explain himself. He just moved right on to the next thing on his list. It was like talking with a movie. You can say whatever, but the moview will always say the same thing. :( sad really
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Originally posted by Setekh
And besides, why exactly do you prefer that option over others, aldo? :)
I prefer the idea of still being 'me' (albeit a new version), than being in heaven......... I mean, in heaven it's not like your existence means anything - you couldn't help people, or improve your life, or just basically have any impact, by the very definition of the place.
But in this life, this 'plane of existence', it's all up to me. I get the luxury of choosing who i am, and what I do to affect my life and that of others.
Sure, some of 'this' life is crap - but how can you measure happiness if you don't know sorrow?
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Originally posted by aldo_14
I prefer the idea of still being 'me' (albeit a new version), than being in heaven......... I mean, in heaven it's not like your existence means anything - you couldn't help people, or improve your life, or just basically have any impact, by the very definition of the place.
But in this life, this 'plane of existence', it's all up to me. I get the luxury of choosing who i am, and what I do to affect my life and that of others.
Sure, some of 'this' life is crap - but how can you measure happiness if you don't know sorrow?
But what if you're wrong? You'll end up in hell?!
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Originally posted by HotSnoJ
But what if you're wrong? You'll end up in hell?!
HotSnoJ, as much as I appreciate your position (and I do), for now at least let's keep this thread thoughtful and not too personally confronting. I understand your motives, but really, what have you to gain by slapping aldo in the face with this sort of question? Besides, if what we believe is really true, then, thinking about it more will definitely help. If what we believe is not true (the remote possibility of which I am willing to admit, as I expect the same attitude of everyone else to whom I speak and reason with), then further thinking will expose untruth.
Now, aldo. I do see validity in a lot of what you say, particularly the "making no impact" bit, but I'm going to sleep soon. ;) However, I'll put this to you: is 'having an impact' the purpose of life, do you think? (Completely rhetorical. You can say yes if you like, I just know a lot of people who assume this without thinking, which bugs me.)
Secondly, how do children, many of whom we could arguably say have no real conception of what genuine sorrow is, have a concept of happiness? And additionally, do you suppose that you have to be simultaneously experiencing sorrow to have a true measure of happiness? Because as far as my understanding goes, heaven does not make you suddenly become asinine and make you lose your comprehension of what sorrow (which people in heaven will no doubt have experienced in this world) is like.
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Originally posted by karajorma
One other thing steak I doubt that most christians believe that cause I doubt that a lot of them have thought about it that deeply :) You hear most people talk about heaven and it just sounds like Earth++
I usually abstain from threads like this because they usually end up in name calling, but yes most christians believe that the marriage relationship is dissolved after death. Not all christians are morons and never think about it at all. Some churches are very serious about teaching the bible and often go very deep with the meaning of things such as the disolution of marriage. But your first comment is right, also, karajorma, marriage is death do you part. It is a verbal contract. Unofrtunatly, no one looks at it the way :(
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Originally posted by Setekh
HotSnoJ, as much as I appreciate your position (and I do), for now at least let's keep this thread thoughtful and not too personally confronting. I understand your motives, but really, what have you to gain by slapping aldo in the face with this sort of question? Besides, if what we believe is really true, then, thinking about it more will definitely help. If what we believe is not true (the remote possibility of which I am willing to admit, as I expect the same attitude of everyone else to whom I speak and reason with), then further thinking will expose untruth..
Maybe I shouldn't have added "You'll end up in hell?!". But my main point was, "What if you're wrong?" Obviously if I'm wrong, depending on what aldo believes (not sure what it is), but if it's atheism, I'm going nowhere fast. I'm just dead.
But your first comment is right, also, karajorma, marriage is death do you part. It is a verbal contract. Unofrtunatly, no one looks at it the way
Dude! Great why to sum it up!
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Well the idea of this thread is disuss beliefs not whether they are correct or not. I'm an atheist personally but I don't see any harm in knowing what other people believe. I'll leave the debate about whether those beliefs are correct or not to another thread. :)
I'm trying to put into words the problem I have with heaven the way Steak has discribed it. My big problem is this. If heaven is supposedly a place where the fact you have several wives doesn't matter then it seems to me that any familial bond is similarly worthless.
Originally posted by HotSnoJ
Maybe I shouldn't have added "You'll end up in hell?!". But my main point was, "What if you're wrong?" Obviously if I'm wrong, depending on what aldo believes (not sure what it is), but if it's atheism, I'm going nowhere fast. I'm just dead.
You miss out the possibility that you might also be wrong and the Hindus or sikhs or any other religion. Casting the "What if you're wrong" stone is a dangerous game for anyone with a faith because it just as easily bounces back onto them. Remember that if the Jehovah's Witnesses are right you're going to Hell in the handbasket next to Aldo's :D
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Originally posted by HotSnoJ
But what if you're wrong? You'll end up in hell?!
What if you're wrong and should be muslim, or sikh, or hindu, or buddhist - etc? There are more religions than christianity.
Personally, I've hedged my bets - I just try to live the best life I can, and morally that's not particularly different from what most holy books would say.
The only difference is that I'm not an active worshipper - and I wouldn't worship any God who valued praise of Himself so highly as to judge a persons sole (or souls'?) worth by it.
EDIT; Secondly, whether someone goes to Hell or not, is not something anyone can judge. Basically it's God's judgement, yeah? And all we have are books- written by the hands of men, and thousands of years old - as an indication of the conditions for that judgement.
Originally posted by Setekh
Now, aldo. I do see validity in a lot of what you say, particularly the "making no impact" bit, but I'm going to sleep soon. ;) However, I'll put this to you: is 'having an impact' the purpose of life, do you think? (Completely rhetorical. You can say yes if you like, I just know a lot of people who assume this without thinking, which bugs me.)
Secondly, how do children, many of whom we could arguably say have no real conception of what genuine sorrow is, have a concept of happiness? And additionally, do you suppose that you have to be simultaneously experiencing sorrow to have a true measure of happiness? Because as far as my understanding goes, heaven does not make you suddenly become asinine and make you lose your comprehension of what sorrow (which people in heaven will no doubt have experienced in this world) is like.
Now, as a semi-aside...i'd never really though too deeply about why reincarnation appeals to me more than other interpretations of the afterlife... one of the things is that, at every moment in your life you make decisions.
Every now and then, you'll do the wrong thing, or just wonder what would have happened the other way. And reincarnation is a way of discovering that - even though it'd be subconscious, it's a comforting though to think that not every door is closed.
And secondly, i've always felt that life should be measured by who you are and what you do... and that the best way to live life is to have a positive impact. i.e. try and be a fair, honest person, not judge people, etc.
Basically, I neither believe nor disbelieve in God. I simply think it doesn't, and shouldn't matter - if I die and that's all there is, then i'm not going to know. If there is an afterlife, then good. But I don;t think I need the bible or any other holy book to dictate to me how to live.
finally, RE: sorrow. Children understand sorrow or, more accurately, suffering. Hence, obviously, the crying when a baby is hungry or whanot, or separated from the mother. It's something that's genetically inbuilt to us, to recognise what is good (happiness) and bad (sorrow) in terms of both physical or emotional events.
Whether you view this inbuilt 'judgement' as something which is a genetic, biological necessity or something more (namely the work of God), is something that is up to your own beliefs. but I don;t think you could argue that, the more you suffer in your life, the more you appreciate it when you're happy.
EDIt; Incidentally, i'm using God / the Bible as an example because most people (who are religious) here will likely be Christian. You can insert any diety or holy book here and the point should still be the same one.
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So, if marriage is not important in the long run, why did the Catholic church forbid divorcing back in the 1600's?
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Originally posted by Stunaep
So, if marriage is not important in the long run, why did the Catholic church forbid divorcing back in the 1600's?
Cos they're wierd.
Catholic church also helped cause the bubonic plague by telling worshippers to kill cats (as they were creatures of witchcraft) - thus skyrocketing the black rat population in europe.
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For that matter if marriage is supposed to be the closest you can have on Earth to heaven why is there such reluctance to allow people to divorce if their marriage is the closest thing to hell?
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I gotta say that I'm completely with Venom in this.
I'm an individual. I take comfort in being me. I am not defined by my relationship to God. If going to Heaven is giving up all the things I value--like my wife--in favor of a closer relationship to God, give me hell. To misquote: Better to be me in Hell, than to serve in Heaven.
That said, I will welcome the end of "me" that comes when I die. I'm quite happy not to have an afterlife, to return to the universe that made me. That's really all a person can expect, in my opinion.
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Originally posted by karajorma
The reason why I mentioned Jehovah's witnesses was cause they actually believe that they will remain on Earth after it's been upgraded following armageddon. Which does make me wonder what they will do about remarriages.
Actually, although I haven't researched this nor do I think we can know for sure how things will be, indications are that we're not going to reside "up" in heaven, but that Jesus will come "down" and reside with us on a new Earth. But that's really getting OT. :p
Originally posted by karajorma
The famous explaination of Islamic heaven has a pretty good explaination though too. You get 20 virgins to keep you company. Who needs the wife? ;7
72 virgins... and that's the reason why the suicide bombers always wear extra protection around their nether regions - they want to remain fully functional when they get there. Understandable, in a demented and sick way. :p
Originally posted by aldo_14
but I don;t think you could argue that, the more you suffer in your life, the more you appreciate it when you're happy.
Actually, I've experienced this to be the case, I hated high-school. Couldn't stand it - most of my classmates were the pick-on-the-person-who's-different kind, and since I was the American who spoke bad Hebrew, I got picked on often. Couldn't wait to get out of there and get home.
Anyway, then I got recruited into the army. And all of a sudden, I found myself returning home on weekend leave, and valuing SO MUCH just being home. I recall looking back at my school days and thinking, "What the heck was so bad about those days, anyway? No matter how bad the day, I got to return home every afternoon, sleep in my own bed, etc... what was I thinking?" :p
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hehehehe Alas Nostalgia is a great teacher ;)
As for marraiges etc, well, if you feel you need one, feel free to get one. Personally, I have my own, somewhat unusual beliefs about the universe, but it all functions around the fact that you are who you alone choose to be, for better or worse, to coin a phrase. I also believe the only 'true' sin is to not treat other people like they also have a 'you' looking out from behind their eyes.
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Seeing both viewpoints displayed here... I have to say, I'm all in favor of oblivion...