Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: Bobboau on March 05, 2004, 08:23:40 am
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ok, there have been a lot of people talking back and forth about this, so I just wanted to know what the majority of people wanted, ambient light set to the normal FS2 level or turned completely off by defalt,
there is a comand line for changeing it, but I want to find out how to inconveinience the smallest number of people posable
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FS2 default, everything should look and feel like normal FS2, remember?
and you might want to make a FRED multiplier, if it isn't already there..
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yes well it looks better if you turn it off
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Turn it off by default. Faster, more stable.
More stable?
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It depends on our earlier approach: leave FS2 vanilla untouched and offer an enhanced version, or abandon FS2 vanilla and go all out. If possible I'd go for the first, but it is more work. We have to answer this question before we answer the one above, I think. :nervous:
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Originally posted by Bobboau
ok, there have been a lot of people talking back and forth about this, so I just wanted to know what the majority of people wanted, ambient light set to the normal FS2 level or turned completely off by defalt,
there is a comand line for changeing it, but I want to find out how to inconveinience the smallest number of people posable
Well, can you (or someone) show how it looks like with ambient light turned off? I never bothered changing this, so i don't really know how it looks like, and maybe i'm not the only one.
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Originally posted by kasperl
FS2 default, everything should look and feel like normal FS2,
Ah, we want it to look outdated?
Off, off, off.
Or put a slider in the options, something like the brightness slider, but for ambiant light.
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Something like this. :)
(http://www.penguinbomb.com/omniscaper/Screenshots/Env06.JPG)
Without glowmaps and environment mapping, a lot darker. ;)
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Originally posted by Nico
Ah, we want it to look outdated?
Off, off, off.
Or put a slider in the options, something like the brightness slider, but for ambiant light.
uhm, Nico, the official SCP rule is simple: don't change what ain't broke, and every option that somewhat makes the standard campaign look or act different, optional with default of.
not my decision btw.
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Originally posted by Nico
Or put a slider in the options, something like the brightness slider, but for ambiant light.
Ideally, though, I think it should be decided per mission. Some systems have less lighting, it should be darker. Some systems have binaries, they should be brighter, etc. But it is a buttload of more work.
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FRED multiplier plus command line/slider.
that seems to be what everybody wants, really.
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Should the FRED per-mission multiplier override the command line/slider option? It's not much good putting a slider inthere if the mission overrides it and specifies a different level - or visa versa - since you'd think you're getting something that you're not.
I'm actaully all for abandoning the original FS2 as far as settings go. It's easier for people to see the work done if - out of the box - the SC modifications work as soon as you run the EXE. No fussing around with command lines and such, just fire up and forget.
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Off.
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Originally posted by Setekh
Something like this. :)
(http://www.penguinbomb.com/omniscaper/Screenshots/Env06.JPG)
Without glowmaps and environment mapping, a lot darker. ;)
Except that the subobject shading is completely FUBAR-ed, so any large subobjects look awful under non-ambient lighting...........
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I'm not sure about off, but certainly having it tuned down a bit wouldn't hurt?
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Originally posted by Setekh
Without glowmaps and environment mapping, a lot darker. ;)
mmm, maybe it's me but i don't see how this could be better than the standard lighting, it's just darker and more difficult to see.
I tryed myself using a lower ambient light setting and everything just looked darker, not better.
I don't still get the point of all this. Is this only about having nicer glowmaps?
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Originally posted by kasperl
uhm, Nico, the official SCP rule is simple: don't change what ain't broke, and every option that somewhat makes the standard campaign look or act different, optional with default of.
not my decision btw.
It's only changes cannot make the standard campaign play differently or unplayable.
Otherwise every single change made cannot be used since they make the campaign look different.
Having played through the main campaign twice and Derelict once with ambient lighting off, I vote for "off".
The darkness takes a little getting used to, but you can't always see what's going on since specular is on.
Actually, I'd prefer the default to be "low" ambient light. This way people who aren't used to it can still see the outlines.
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I would say standard by default.
This really needs to be set on a per mission basis, good lighting can make just about everything look better ;) I get that problem with Subsystems too.
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It would indeed be much better if it could be adjusted per mission. Any mission located near a large celestial body such as a planet would give a lot more ambient light than if you were simply in space.
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There is a setting called Ambient Light Level that has been in the mission files since the original 1.2, but I don't think it does anything at the moment and there are no freds that let you edit it directly. Is this the mission setting you people are talking about?
Anyway, the best solution is obviously to include both command line and mission-based settings, since that would satisfy everyone. I personally would like something between the two extremes though (I thought the original setting was too bright and the newer one was too dark). The only question is whether to make them absolute numbers and/or multipliers on existing values.
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Originally posted by kasperl
uhm, Nico, the official SCP rule is simple: don't change what ain't broke, and every option that somewhat makes the standard campaign look or act different, optional with default of.
Exactly. The official rule is to leave everything the same as it was in retail FS2, except for engine upgrades such as DX8 and HT&L. That means all graphic bells and whistles are off by default.
This shouldn't even be a poll, as it's not up for debate.
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Originally posted by CP5670
Anyway, the best solution is obviously to include both command line and mission-based settings, since that would satisfy everyone.
Anyone using recent OGL fred builds might have noticed greyed out slider bars intended for this purpose in the background dialog.
Just be patient.
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Things look SOOO much better without the ambient light. Can't see the harm in leaving it off by default though...
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I can, it means someone running with supposely default options has to play freespace in the dark, only able to see ships polys directly lit by the sun.
It clearly unbalances V's original intended lighting for all missions in the game.
Fs2_open policy is all options off by default, in the launcher I have added a new menu to allow to instantely set all your favourite options on, this could include a ambient factor to compliment env mapping.
Enabling env could even trigger its own ambient factor change if needed but by default it should work the same way as retail FS2.
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Originally posted by SadisticSid
Things look SOOO much better without the ambient light. Can't see the harm in leaving it off by default though...
This is YOUR opinion, I for example i don't like that at all, i like ships to be brightly lighted, like they always were, not crash against a 2km destroyer i can't see because it's pitch black...
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A good solution in the light of this would be to have two things: a default setting and a per-mission setting.
Any mission without an ambient light level set would use the default.
The default ambient light setting is activated by the command line. If it's not specified, then it's full ambient lighting (just like normal FS2).
Then those who prefer no ambient lighting in the main campaign can turn it off by changing the default ambient lighting in the command line.
FS2 main campaign and pre-existing campaigns all have full ambient lighting (unless changed in command line).
New missions can be set to whatever ambient lighting the mission designer chooses.
This way, everybody is satisfied, there's no confusion about lighting multiplier levels, and the wishes of the mission designer is met.
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it's one or the other. you can't have a mission option and a command line parameter.
If you were going to have one or the other, I'd go with a mission option, because that changes the "feel" of a mission, therefore shouldn't be left up to the player if a particular feel is intended.
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Originally posted by Anaz
it's one or the other. you can't have a mission option and a command line parameter.
Of course you can! It just need a little more complicated coding...and so far seem the best solution
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Why can't you have both? Did you read what I said? The command line changes the DEFAULT ambient lighting.
A default has to be there because the main campaign doesn't have ambient lighting set properly.
This way FS2_open always respects the setting in the mission unless it's not specified.
(This is moot though, if the source-code people decide to use the currently non-functional ambient lighting parameter in the missions right now)
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Hmmmm... I'm wondering, is it possible to define the colour of ambient light?
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Originally posted by Flipside
Hmmmm... I'm wondering, is it possible to define the colour of ambient light?
Isnt' it already determined by the kind of sun you use?
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Not sure, but it might be nice to be able to define an ambient colour that is different to the colour of the sun, for example, having a Red spectrum star and a Blue spectrum star as Binaries would result in somewhat purple ambient light. Just wondering whether it's possible to reproduce that kind of effect?
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People who want ambient lighting left on are obviously dangerous, liberal, subhumans who have little in common with real humans.
*ahem*
Ambient lighting should be off because it just looks better.
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Originally posted by mikhael
People who want ambient lighting left on are obviously dangerous, liberal, subhumans who have little in common with real humans.
*ahem*
Ambient lighting should be off because it just looks better.
:yes:
and I'm OK with it if the mission definition over-rides the command line.
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
I can, it means someone running with supposely default options has to play freespace in the dark, only able to see ships polys directly lit by the sun.
It clearly unbalances V's original intended lighting for all missions in the game.
Fs2_open policy is all options off by default, in the launcher I have added a new menu to allow to instantely set all your favourite options on, this could include a ambient factor to compliment env mapping.
Enabling env could even trigger its own ambient factor change if needed but by default it should work the same way as retail FS2.
Agreed. By official SCP policy, this a non-discussion topic really. We need per-mission settings to allow classic FS2 to co-exist with enhanced FS2.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
That means all graphic bells and whistles are off by default.
Well excuse me, but that's plain idiotic.
Feel free to flame me all you want for my opinion, I'll stand on it.
Oh, you better do a good txt for newbies who wanna try the SCP builds someday, coz they will install it, launch it, see nothing cool, and desinstall it.
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Originally posted by Nico
Well excuse me, but that's plain idiotic.
When was the last time you bought a game and every option was at highest by default?
Consider the other side, everything on by default, low spec user loads it up and it runs with a poor frame rate, cant play it and uninstalls it. Surely thats worse?
Also "see nothing cool"? Your not much of a FS2 fan then?
I see something cool every time I load it even with all features off.
Also fs2_open isnt all about visuals, and I believe once we hit a certain level gameplay will become a more important factor again.
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Originally posted by ryuune75
Of course you can! It just need a little more complicated coding...and so far seem the best solution
Correct, after we are out of the feature freeze theres no reason we cant have mission controlled coloured ambient lighting which is further influenced by the ambient_factor command line should you choose to use it.
That was always my plan and as I said theres 3 slider bars greyed out in Fred to prove it.
Please be patient and trust us.
I would have thought we had earned some trust by now.
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I realy would like to get back into the gameplay codeing feild, I wan't to completly over haul the fighter beam system.
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
When was the last time you bought a game and every option was at highest by default?
last game I bought didn't need me to learn a whole list of commands to add after typing the exe ( you can, but usually, the tags are, guess what? -nosomething, -nothatotherthing ). Besides, have you bought a game recently? Coz yeah I did, half of them are set on full by default, the other half launches an autodetect hardware prog.
Consider the other side, everything on by default, low spec user loads it up and it runs with a poor frame rate, cant play it and uninstalls it. Surely thats worse?
It's more logical to remove one, two features until it doesn't lag anymore. You also already see what effect you wanna get rid off.
On default, lower spec users are USED to remove options, not add them. I should know well, I've been one for ten years, and after an upgrade 4 years ago, I'm back to being one :doubt:
That's kind of an habit, you see?
Also "see nothing cool"? Your not much of a FS2 fan then?
I see something cool every time I load it even with all features off.
geez man :rolleyes:
Also fs2_open isnt all about visuals,
yeah right :p
and I believe once we hit a certain level gameplay will become a more important factor again.
we'll see how you manage w/o alterring how the vanilla FS2 feels :p
Ah, but why do I digress, that "100% backward compatibility/ if it ain't broke don't fix it" philosophy brought us so many perfect progs like the Windows series, I trust it's the best way?
what can I say, I like being a pain :nervous:
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well, we have to mantain backward compatablility with the origonal data, if only so we have a controle data that we know everyone has
I disagree with the have everything off by defalt pollicy myself
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Well, how about, an enhanced FS2 campaign being the one that is opened up by default, with a 'classic FS2 campaign' available for the people who want to see what it was like before. That way you won't have the issue of newbies opening it up and saying "this is just like what it was before... this is pants", but additionally the people who want it as it was before have the option to go to back to it just like switching a campaign.
Ironically, this was inspired to me by your comment on Windows, Venom. :p This is the way they have the GUI set up in Windows XP - the shiny new one by default, but you can switch back to the old look and the old start menu with a few clicks, no trouble at all for the... purists. ;)
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Originally posted by Nico
last game I bought didn't need me to learn a whole list of commands to add after typing the exe ( you can, but usually, the tags are, guess what? -nosomething, -nothatotherthing ). Besides, have you bought a game recently? Coz yeah I did, half of them are set on full by default, the other half launches an autodetect hardware prog.
The last game you *bought* was made by a professional company with payed staff. While thats a good standard to aim for you *have* to except that our project by its nature has its limitations.
I have implemented easy setup in the launcher to try and meet your concerns. If you have any suggestions to help make the launcher more useful and user friendly then Im certainly listening.
Pehaps the launcher should be more visual to give you an idea of what you are choosing.
Heres a few reasons we use command line flags:
1. It would take a fair bit of effort to have a ingame selection screen, it would be a pain to have to update it every time something changes and would require new art which in itself would cause back compatibility issues.
2. To fix problems its really good to have a tester able to say my options on are "-whatever -whatever" rather than users having to describe the feature in their own words. So it really does help with idenfying problems and solutions easily.
3. Time spent on *any* other solution would take time away from bug fixing and feature developement.
4. I would hope that anyone who owns FS2 and still wants to play or is willing to download it of abandonware or pay an excessive amount to get one of the limited copies is intelligent and patient enough to tick a few boxes and read a few small explanations.
If you want an autodetect feature (which would be great) why dont you stop complaining go off an do something about it? Do research, surveys and polls to gather the satistics we would need to make such a feature.
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
The last game you *bought* was made by a professional company with payed staff. While thats a good standard to aim for you *have* to except that our project by its nature has its limitations.
What? I'm just saying that nowadays the options are turned on by default :wtf:
I have implemented easy setup in the launcher to try and meet your concerns. If you have any suggestions to help make the launcher more useful and user friendly then Im certainly listening.
I've nothing to complain about the launcher for now, I think yu get the wrong idea about me :p
Pehaps the launcher should be more visual to give you an idea of what you are choosing.
that said, to be honest, I think all those graphical options should be... in the graphical options tab in FS :p
then again:
Heres a few reasons we use command line flags:
1. It would take a fair bit of effort to have a ingame selection screen, it would be a pain to have to update it every time something changes and would require new art which in itself would cause back compatibility issues.
2. To fix problems its really good to have a tester able to say my options on are "-whatever -whatever" rather than users having to describe the feature in their own words. So it really does help with idenfying problems and solutions easily.
3. Time spent on *any* other solution would take time away from bug fixing and feature developement.
4. I would hope that anyone who owns FS2 and still wants to play or is willing to download it of abandonware or pay an excessive amount to get one of the limited copies is intelligent and patient enough to tick a few boxes and read a few small explanations.
fair, fair, fair, fair, but then again, that's never been my concern :p
As for the SF2 owners thing: put bluntly, no. Moders tend to forget that usually, games are for gamers, not moders. Yeah, it's fun making mods and all, but isn't all that meant to be played by lambda players, still? To me, same applies to the SCP.
If you want an autodetect feature (which would be great) why dont you stop complaining go off an do something about it? Do research, surveys and polls to gather the satistics we would need to make such a feature.
Rah, I don't, who really needs that? Was just what I saw in the latest videogames I bought, since you asked me. You're drawing too many conclusions from what I say :p
Sometimes I feel its all want want want from some people, then when you need help testing or with anything else where are they then?
I don't want anything, excepted that what's ALREADY done is turned on, coz after all, the point of something coded is to be used?
I don't think THAT was such a crazy request so I'm regarded as being a complete ass just for asking :blah: ( I suppose idiotic is stronger in english than in french, coz seems that post triggered it all :doubt: )
Ah well.
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Load launcher(4.2):Flags:Select "All features on" in easy setup.
Isnt that easy enough? If not perhaps it could be on the front screen. Launcher:Features:All on.
The launcher can always be improved, I have no doupts about that. Its the first thing a new user sees of fs2_open so its an ideal place to perfect the issues that are raised.
I guess changing 'flags' to 'features' would help. For now at least our policy is off by default and I would ask you to respect and work with that.
On a sidenote I've just ran Deus Ex 2, just about everything was at minimum and theres no autodetect. I turned up all the features and then had to turn them all down again because they were too slow. Make of that what you will.
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just let the modders release the exe with the config they think is better for their camp.
Maybe a config.txt or something like that, so they don't have to release an exe but only an external configuration file, which will configure the exe with the options that they think will make their camp look better or that will be needed (for example, FOV setting for SW conversion)
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btw, RT, when i set flags for FSO, and click the thingy for "use these flags when running fso directly" FS retail will use them too, and won't start properly (it hangs my system )
i'm using 4.0, is this a bug, a faulty feature, has it been fixed?
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kasperl: Is it in Mantis? Im going to start ignoring most problems that are reported outside Mantis.
The only way to fix that problem is change the file it saves and fs2_open looks to. I will have a think about that, bit of a backcompatibility issue.
KARMA: In the short term you can give them a config file to copy over the existing one (cmdline.cfg in data dir).
Perhaps when you select a mod in the launcher it could take a config file in the mod dir and up that to setup the launcher options.
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
Perhaps when you select a mod in the launcher it could take a config file in the mod dir and up that to setup the launcher options.
I was thinking exactly at something like this, mod specific
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It would be a one time only thing though (each time they select the MOD). Afterwards they would be free to add remove flags.
If thats OK then I'll put it on my todo list.
Edit: Hmmm, I think this might be flawed, depends on people using the launcher too much.
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
kasperl: Is it in Mantis? Im going to start ignoring most problems that are reported outside Mantis.
The only way to fix that problem is change the file it saves and fs2_open looks to. I will have a think about that, bit of a backcompatibility issue.
KARMA: In the short term you can give them a config file to copy over the existing one (cmdline.cfg in data dir).
Perhaps when you select a mod in the launcher it could take a config file in the mod dir and up that to setup the launcher options.
not in Mantis yet, because i wasn't sure if it was a real bug.
and that solution would be awesome.
should i put it in Mantis still, or is it something you'll need to discuss with other's first?
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No, Im aware of the problem but no-one has brought it up before.
Put it in mantis.
I just need to change the filename but it means if someones build and launcher are out of sync version wise it will not opperate correctly. I might have to have an overlap period were it saves to both files.
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Just change everything it once - less hassle that way. Everything is fluid right now and the latest build we "officially" support is 3.5.5, so don't worry about breaking stuff temporarily.
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Allow ambiemt light to be inserted via FRED, but let it turned out by default. I was happy as hell when ambient light got removed.
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
Load launcher(4.2):Flags:Select "All features on" in easy setup.
Isnt that easy enough? If not perhaps it could be on the front screen. Launcher:Features:All on.
The launcher can always be improved, I have no doupts about that. Its the first thing a new user sees of fs2_open so its an ideal place to perfect the issues that are raised.
I guess changing 'flags' to 'features' would help. For now at least our policy is off by default and I would ask you to respect and work with that.
On a sidenote I've just ran Deus Ex 2, just about everything was at minimum and theres no autodetect. I turned up all the features and then had to turn them all down again because they were too slow. Make of that what you will.
For now, I can't use it at all, fs2 won't run on my PC ( to my greatest despair, should I add ). Seems to run fine on my new laptp tho, so maybe I'll have some luck there.
As for deus ex, it's just an exemple, an exemple proves nothing. I don't have a list in mind, but at least Thief 2 starts with everything to max ( save resolution, obviously ). And to prove my point, one game is enough :p
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FS2 won't run, or FSO won't run?
and if FSO how far do you get?
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Moved to SCP. :)
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why?
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Goober asked. :)
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you have -ambient_factor so wth are you all complaining about? :rolleyes:
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ppl are lazy and stupid... to get that to work I have to do all that typing... :p
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Originally posted by Bobboau
FS2 won't run, or FSO won't run?
and if FSO how far do you get?
FS2. Well, to be exact, it runs, won't crash, but is basically unplayable. It used to work, but I changed hardward parts, and I have no idea which one is the problem.
Originally posted by Grug
ppl are lazy and stupid...
Sorry about being lazy and stupid :rolleyes:
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so FSO works fine?
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it works the same: very choppy sound, slow and laggy game ( when I mean slow, I DO mean slow, like some inversed time compression. weird, odd, annoying. When there's little in the mission, it runs at normal speed, when there's action, the thing slows down. Funny, innit? ).
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wait, you mean it's not bad frame rates it's like the clock is running slower?
that is bezar
maybe it's a sound card driver, what are your specs?
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Definitely should allow ambient lighting to be set PER MISSION, and while at it, be able to be differently colored, too (for when a lit background sun or skybox just cant cut it)
that is how most other games do it. Freelancer is an example, for one. I can probably think of others, but they've slipped my mind for the time being.
To fix the problem of some people having fits over this,
ADD a new "ambient_ignoremsn" to make devs and debuggers happy.
INTENDED USE: tells FS2 to IGNORE all mission parameters for ambient lighting and use its default ambient light levels.
keep ambient_factor
IF user specifies a factor and it isn't 1.00,
AND IF ambient_ignoremsn is OFF,
THEN multiply mission-specified ambience by ambient_factor.
*****result: ambient_factor scales up/down mission-specified ambient light levels, so players can adjust to their taste.
OTHERWISE,
IF user specifies a factor and it isn't 1.00,
AND IF ambient_ignoremsn is ON,
THEN FSO use only default FS2 ambience levels,
AND multiply default FS2 ambience levels by ambient_factor.
*****result: ambient_factor scales up/down only standard FS2 light levels, bringing the same effect ambient_factor currently has on FSO and making developers or purists very happy.
All we need is a simple disabler for the potential mission-specified thing, and a modfication of current method of ambience scaling. Sounds good logically, but can it be done in code?
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Originally posted by Bobboau
wait, you mean it's not bad frame rates it's like the clock is running slower?
that is bezar
maybe it's a sound card driver, what are your specs?
I thought about that too, since I did change the soundcard around the time it started messing up ( switching from a SB16 to a SB128 -no choice: ISA to PCI ). but seems it's not it.
It's been like that for a couple years, tried many things, that's a lost cause.