Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Havock on March 06, 2004, 03:33:47 pm
-
any of the peeps here do something like that?
no, not marital arts, that is something else
you know, sports, body movement :p
ok, gotta cut that out, anyway.
I'm doing Ninpo Taijutsu richt now, along with some Spetsnaz techniques for the outdoors.
gotta love the "be creative with knives in the dark" lessons we get :p
If you talk about dirty fighting, this is about it.
I have not been in the situation yet that i would have to use it, though i have been in plenty of those situations before that (serve in the army, go for a drink, pick the worst neighborhood cuz the beer is cheaper there, do that once/twice a week)
I hope I don't get into situations like that, though I am prepared to do whatever is required to see myself or any of my friends through that kind of "trouble".
-
I did kickboxing and tae-kwon-do a while back. Had to lay them off though, in favor of keeping riding and swimming. The amount of time I have on my hands is fastly riding towards zero.
-
[color=cc9900]This was discussed in a fashion recently, so feel free to pilfer information:
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,20508.0.html[/color]
-
Wah! Huh! *throws a few kicks about*
Dude, this karate lark is teh fun. And... teh hurty legs as well. Never mind, tis all worth it :nod:
-
what the hell is up with geeks being obsessed with martial arts?
there was this page of "you know a person's a geek if: " and one of the things was "all he talks about is martial arts, yet he always gets his ass whipped" or something like that.
-
Who's obsessed? I attend an hourly class twice a week to help my fitness and to socialise a bit. What's the problem?
-
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Who's obsessed? I attend an hourly class twice a week to help my fitness and to socialise a bit. What's the problem?
He can't do it. :nod:
-
Oh, right. That might also explain the enormous sig, perhaps?
-
*shrugs* who said there's a problem with it. it just struck me (reading this topic) that geeks are always talking about martial arts. nothing wrong with it.
i've practiced baguazhang for almost three years straight now :)
-
chair-fu for me.. :p
(the art of using whatever's close by, particularly furniture)
-
I don't get it. What is the big deal? Karate kicking and so on just seems so... fifth grade. I mean, unless you're really good at it or learning it as a genuine combat practise rather than this dippy **** they teach to insecure women and the sort of guys who got beaten up a lot in grade school, what's the point? You want to be able to hurt people? Carry around a sawed-off shotgun, do a better job, 's more fun to use by half. You wanna leap around flailing your arms? Take a ballet class, there's a potential career path there. You wanna be Jet Li or Neo from the Matrix? Get a goddamn life, you'll feel better afterward and you'll lose fewer fights.
Maybe there's something I'm missing, I dunno.
-
Er, yeah. You missed the part where I said I want to help my fitness and socialise a little. If I got in a fight tomorrow I'd most likely still just whack the guy with a bottle, as per usual.
I'm not trying to make myself out to be Neo by taking some karate lessons. That's what I bought the big black jacket for :nod:
-
Took Aikido long ago, but I sort of fell out of it.
-
although it's a fact, 99.9% of "martial artists" would be better off in a fight without their "skills". unless you're a dedicated and well-practiced martial artist, you're not going to win every fight you enter :rolleyes: ;) :)
-
Stealth mate, you're making a bit of a divvy out of yourself. Do yourself a favour and stop there, eh?
-
I say we sic ninjas on him.
Ninjas!
-
took Karate several years back untill studies came into the way.
-
Originally posted by Stryke 9
I say we sic ninjas on him.
Ninjas!
How ´bout dogs? Or ninja dogs?
Yeah, I think that'd be fun.
-
*recounts the scimitar scene from "raiders of the lost ark" *
-
Jiu-Jitsu for me :)
-
What, you think the folks here who practice martial arts reckon they could take on a fellow with a shooter? Jesus Christ, earlier it was us being accused of being delusional.
According to people posting in this thread, folks who practice martial arts:
a) are geeks
b) get beat up all the time
c) think they're Neo
d) think they can beat a guy with a gun
The list goes on. You people who take the piss - how many of you do anything more physical than walking from your chair to the fridge now and again? I'll reiterate my earlier points - my karate class helps me improve my fitness and is a social activity. And I'll add some more points - it improves my balance, flexibility and timing and, hopefully, might even instill a bit of mental discipline in me. And you know what else? It's fun.
So there - that's what the 'deal' is
-
Plus there's the little thing, that the person most obsessed with martial arts on this board is stealth.
And if he considers replying honestly to a thread about martial arts "being obsessed", then he's a moron.
Which ain't spectacularly new, but hey.
-
Meh, people collect stamps and get enjoyment out of it. Do whatever makes you happy - **ck what everyone else thinks of you.
-
Flamming Razor made me happy, but you lot censored me
-
DG: I merely asked questions, I was not trying to suggest anything. That's the going perception round about these parts, naturally I'm going to base what I know off of that.
Meh. You judo chop stuff, I hit stuff with a machete. I figure my way's more efficient at... whatever, so I was curious as to whether there's any particular reason people prefer martial arts.
Also, this thread should be about the "marital arts". Discuss.
-
Martial arts does provide a certain physical and mental training that firing a gun or using a machette won't provide you with. At least that's the theory. Besides this topic is about martial arts, not "what is your preferred / most effective way of killing a man?"...
-
Well yes. My teacher's approach to a street fight is apparently to smack the other fellow a couple of times so he's off balance and winded, then leg it
-
Who's talking about killing?
You'd be surprised how much coordination it takes to do anything more interesting than just hacking away with a machete, anyway. At least, I was at first. Got an absurd number of scars from being absurdly stupid.
-
Thats why my sword and katana are incredibly ornamental. I could hack and stab if I really had to - but there'd be entirely no skill to whatever I did with them.
DG - I like your teachers approach to street fighting. Basically I'm not the violent type, and most of the 'tards around heres approach to fighting is to wheel in and basically through your entire body at your opponenet, take them down and then beat them when they can't fight back. There's no actual art to it at all. Ergo if you don't want to get into a fight you just kick them in the balls, chest and face and then leave the area. It might not be honorable or whatever, but if you don't actually want to fight - why should you play by the rules.
-
rofl: "Flamming Razor made me happy, but you lot censored me"
lol @ Turnsky
I do TaeKwon Doe... and also got a few tips from a blackbelt ninjitsu dude (or whatever its called :p)
Hehe, I think I'd probably fit into the Geek catagory, but I've never been in a real fight...
I started TKD back in Highschool round G9 or something. Some friends of mine convinced me to come along.
I will say that martial arts does give a HUGE confidence boost, and half the time thats all you need to avoid a fight... :D
But this also reminds me of a recent crime down in Sydney I think it was. 3 thugs picked the wrong house to rob that night, cause it happened to belong to a bouncer whos a blackbelt in karate. lol.
So anyway here this guy is having a beer at 2 in the morning lol after knocking off work and he hears a window smash. So he goes into investigate and here is this thug trying to climb through the window. So he runs at him throws a few punches into his face and puts him on the floor outside. Then another guy hits over the back with an iron bar, he drops, then the thug is about to finish him off when he grabs his arm and breaks it. Then a 3rd one comes out of no where and stabs him in the chest. So this time he's on his knees slowly losing conciousness with the guy who stabbed him standing over him.
So what does he do? Not collapse and give up hell no. He grabs the knife out of his chest and thrusts it up into the thugs groin! Then he collapses from bloodloss, and somehow the 3 thugs stumble off.
The funnier thing still is that they havnt found them yet! so Some where there is a guy with a bruised face, a guy with a broken arm, and another with a knife in his groin region. lol.
Oh, and there's also the one about another fellah who grabbed the nearest thing handy, (like Turnsky ;) ) which just so happened to be a Samurai sword. lol, gave the intruder sever cuts and had to be sent to hospital.
lol Now if that was me, I could only hope I'd fight so valiantly rather than me being the only victim of a crime, share it around a bit, especially on the ones who thought they could get away with it... :D
lmao-Grug
-
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
According to people posting in this thread, folks who practice martial arts:
a) are geeks
b) get beat up all the time
wrong, i said most geeks are interested in martial arts. not the other way round. also, i said that it's funny how geeks are always talking about martial arts (i've seen it first-hand at school) but they always get their asses whipped. it's a fact, don't deny it. you've seen it enough on this board.
also, i said it's a fact that most people who've trained in any external martial art are better off without it when they get in a real fight. i could explain this, but you'll just have to take my word for it
-
Originally posted by Stealth
although it's a fact, 99.9% of "martial artists" would be better off in a fight without their "skills". unless you're a dedicated and well-practiced martial artist, you're not going to win every fight you enter :rolleyes: ;) :)
that is because what you learn in "class" are "basics", you need to improvise depending on situation, and the type of ground you are standing on.
and like i said, there is a lot of difference between being in the ring and on the street.
i have seen kickboxers that litterally kick the **** out of anyone inside the ring, lose to just an average fighter on the street, why?
because they can't adapt.
ring -> usually rules of engagement
street -> no rules.
and about those that "criticize" martial arts and talk about getting a life:
not all the martial arts involve jumping around with your arms flailing and making screams like you are getting 10000 volts on your nuts.
what I am doing right now, taijutsu is extremely effecient: take down an opponent as fast as possible, using as little energy as possible.
it also involves some spetsnaz training stuff and such.
I love it, i consider it a hobby, a hobby that may prove useful someday.
other people collect poststamps, play games or hang around in a bar, how much "life points" does that give someone?
-
yeah you hit the nail right on the head there, also on the street there's a level of adrenaline, which there's not in sparring, and adrenaline can do wonders.
i don't respect martial arts or martial artists of today. that's because most martial arts of today are geared at fast results and/or showing off. i don't believe in that, which is why i quit taekwon do. anyone that says "I've been practicing shotokan for 4 years" i don't even blink an eye, because chances are he's never gotten in a real fight outside of sparring, and behind those fancy show-off kicks and forms, there's no basis. the older, NON-AMERICAN taught martial arts i respect, such as all three internal, and a few external, like ninjitsu, etc.
and for the record, i never criticized ALL martial arts or said "Get a life". it's great that you're interested in martial arts, i just mentioned that i think it's amusing how most geeks are also interested in it. it's hilarious actually. i mean i'm here in this category with you. i'm a geek, and i'm interested in martial arts too, so...
-
Originally posted by Kalfireth
Basically I'm not the violent type, and most of the 'tards around heres approach to fighting is to wheel in and basically through your entire body at your opponenet, take them down and then beat them when they can't fight back. There's no actual art to it at all.
You get in a street fight with a drunken prick and it's not art, it's a messy, ugly situation that a quick pin to the ground and a solid headbutt helps to resolve 99% of the time.
It's only unfair if it's more than 1 on 1 in my opinion.
-
Originally posted by 01010
You get in a street fight with a drunken prick and it's not art, it's a messy, ugly situation that a quick pin to the ground and a solid headbutt helps to resolve 99% of the time.
It's only unfair if it's more than 1 on 1 in my opinion.
Actually, if the headbutt is solid enough, you shouldn't need to pin them to the ground atall.... they'll find their own way there.
That said, contrary to stereotype, i can't actually remember ever hiedering someone. Except accidentally.
-
[q]That said, contrary to stereotype, i can't actually remember ever hiedering someone. Except accidentally.[/q]
Ye never seen it done either.
Anyway, I'm still trying to get a Krav Maga club set up at Caley but it's snail mail time since the International Federation UK's site e-mail don't work. :hopping:
-
Originally posted by vyper
Ye never seen it done either.
Apparently it happened to someone in a 5-a-sides league I was running a few years back at uni. Got 'is nose broken as a big rammy ensued................
-
Originally posted by Stealth
yeah you hit the nail right on the head there, also on the street there's a level of adrenaline, which there's not in sparring, and adrenaline can do wonders.
i don't respect martial arts or martial artists of today. that's because most martial arts of today are geared at fast results and/or showing off. i don't believe in that, which is why i quit taekwon do. anyone that says "I've been practicing shotokan for 4 years" i don't even blink an eye, because chances are he's never gotten in a real fight outside of sparring, and behind those fancy show-off kicks and forms, there's no basis. the older, NON-AMERICAN taught martial arts i respect, such as all three internal, and a few external, like ninjitsu, etc.
and for the record, i never criticized ALL martial arts or said "Get a life". it's great that you're interested in martial arts, i just mentioned that i think it's amusing how most geeks are also interested in it. it's hilarious actually. i mean i'm here in this category with you. i'm a geek, and i'm interested in martial arts too, so...
hehe, everybody is a geek to some degree.
at school most ppl thought "glasses, small posture.... a nerd" when they first got to know me.
Only 2 days after, they knew me as a rather hard-as-nails guy who you don't want to mess with.
...and no, the reason for that did not involve making someone's head bleed on a table in the cantina in front of the whole school.
simply by being the ice-cold person i am.
i am not that bloodthirsty, if I have a fight at school, i prefer to nail their reputation rather than their kneecaps.
Surprising how quiet ppl become after you put em in the trash can.
or the big containers outside, some ppl are just too big for simple trashcans :p
-
Stealth, if you know how to apply martial arts the correct way it is most definately an advantage. Even in street fights. I know, I've been there. My years training and learning Jiu-Jitsu surely helped me out a lot when I got into a fight and I've been in quite a few (not that I'm proud of it or anything, on the contrary really).
It's just that you have to apply it correctly. If you think martial arts is just kicking and punching in some fancy way, you're way off. Most martial arts will allow you to be in control mentally. Which is a very good thing as you can more easily anticipate what your opponent is going to do. Alse, with this you can also more easily dodge incoming blows. On top of that, this also allows you to focus your blows to deal more damage to your opponent.
Martial arts also enhances your accuracy and allows you to deal more critical blows to the body of your opponent. Unlike the standard punch of the nose I always strike the side of the neck with the side of my hand. Takes most untrained people out in one blow.
Also, martial arts teaches you how to protect your body from incoming blows. Unlike your typical 'boxing-defence' with two arms up, which only protects the upper body and only to a certain degree as it is a static defence and not a variable/versatile defence, you learn how to protect your entire body.
These are just a few points on how martial arts is a benefit in any fight that doesn't include a gun or long range weapon. I could write up a lot more about this but its late. If you want me to explain more if you have questions, just ask.
So, Stealth, I take it you never practiced or even remotely studied martial arts and how to apply it effectively? If you ever do, then you can judge it, otherwise just don't.
-
i barely ever even take a real fighting stance, i usually stand with one side to the enemy, hands slightly into fighting position, that way, they have no idea of your combat capabilities:
as soon as you go standing "wooohaaaaaaa *swing arms around*, they know you can prove dodgy.
the way i sand, you keep yourself "hidden".
-
[color=cc9900]The next step is to charge them shoulder-first, of course.[/color]
-
Originally posted by Odyssey
[color=cc9900]The next step is to charge them shoulder-first, of course.[/color]
Ah, a nice example on how martial arts is applied correctly:
Side step, chop in the neck. Charging guy goes down.
Again, you can only do this properly if you have sufficient mental control. If your body is pumping with adrenaline and you DON'T have control you will most like my taken down and have your head smashed in.
Now, this may seem like a simple thing to do, but don't underestimate it. It's actually quite hard.
-
Originally posted by TheCelestialOne
Stealth, if you know how to apply martial arts the correct way it is most definately an advantage. Even in street fights. I know, I've been there. My years training and learning Jiu-Jitsu surely helped me out a lot when I got into a fight and I've been in quite a few (not that I'm proud of it or anything, on the contrary really).
perhaps you're an excception... either that or you're the .1% that martial arts really helps
It's just that you have to apply it correctly. If you think martial arts is just kicking and punching in some fancy way, you're way off. Most martial arts will allow you to be in control mentally. Which is a very good thing as you can more easily anticipate what your opponent is going to do. Alse, with this you can also more easily dodge incoming blows. On top of that, this also allows you to focus your blows to deal more damage to your opponent.
but as i said, most martial arts ARE just kicking and punching in some fancy way. practically all American taught martial arts are solely to get fast results, show off, and look cool.
Martial arts also enhances your accuracy and allows you to deal more critical blows to the body of your opponent. Unlike the standard punch of the nose I always strike the side of the neck with the side of my hand. Takes most untrained people out in one blow.
as i said earlier, perhaps you're one of the more advanced martial artists, but in real life, in a street fight, it's not a sparring situation, there's adrenhaline, you're panicking, and your opponent knows no rules of sparring, he just wants to hurt you. in situations such as this, most "martial artists" forfeit their "training" and use more traditional, instinctive methods (i.e. a punch in the nose). it takes a well trained martial artist to remain calm and rely on his training in a situation like this
Also, martial arts teaches you how to protect your body from incoming blows. Unlike your typical 'boxing-defence' with two arms up, which only protects the upper body and only to a certain degree as it is a static defence and not a variable/versatile defence, you learn how to protect your entire body.
see above
These are just a few points on how martial arts is a benefit in any fight that doesn't include a gun or long range weapon. I could write up a lot more about this but its late. If you want me to explain more if you have questions, just ask.
i'm afraid my opinions differ from yours. perhaps it's because you've stuck with the more external styles, while i prefer internal. if this is the case (which it appears to be) then it just demonstrates the philosophies between external and internal arts
So, Stealth, I take it you never practiced or even remotely studied martial arts and how to apply it effectively? If you ever do, then you can judge it, otherwise just don't.
i took taekwon do for about 2 years, i've studied Baguazhang for the last three years straight, and i've also taken (for very short periods of time) multiple other arts. i started originally in late 1998 practicing martial arts. you think you're speaking from experience, well so am i.
-
Lau Gar Kung Fu here. :) A Southern External style of Kung fu. Been doing it for about 18 months, I'm currently at 3rd Kup (orange sash) level.
I do it for fitness and mental control. Yeah, if some drunken wanker (a fair few of those round here on a weekend :doubt: )tries something on, I can twat him good, but that's a secondary motivation for me. It keeps me fit, gives me better stamina and balance, and it's fun.
I'd also like to try an internal art (maybe Hsing-I or Taijichuan), and I'm reading about some Japanese weapon arts at the moment (in particular Iaijutsu) because they look really good for coordination and focus.
-
TheCelestialOne - I agree with everything you've said mate.
For me Martial Arts have been for mental control and fitness. I was surprised at myself the first time I naturally assumed a 'fighting stance' when I sensed danger. Practicing actually did drive it into my brain lol.
TaeKwonDoe being based on self defense
The TaeKwon Doe I do, is the International TaeKwonDoe Federation (ITF), the Korean one, with the founder of this style passing away only a few years back. The style however is seems much more native, with everything having to be learned in English and Korean, and history of patterns etc being based on Korean history...
I would agree to some degree about some of the 'americanized' or 'westernized' versions of martial arts... Like the TKD you see in the Olympics for example. It seems a shame that they break it away from its roots... but eh thats a different story...
nite.
-Grug
-
Originally posted by TheCelestialOne
Ah, a nice example on how martial arts is applied correctly:
Side step, chop in the neck. Charging guy goes down.
Again, you can only do this properly if you have sufficient mental control. If your body is pumping with adrenaline and you DON'T have control you will most like my taken down and have your head smashed in.
Now, this may seem like a simple thing to do, but don't underestimate it. It's actually quite hard.
*cough*
Sutemi
-
Originally posted by Turnsky
chair-fu for me.. :p
(the art of using whatever's close by, particularly furniture)
Oh, the light and fast varient of what I use: table-fu :yes:
We artists rock, nothing more deadly than trowing a few pen-riken, performing some art-jutsu or fleeing while the opponent tries to get rid of the paint in the eyes :D
-
Originally posted by Havock
*cough*
Sutemi
*twack*
Thats Aikido :D
-
i never really liked Taekwon do. actually, i hated it. too much show, not enough discipline.
pyro: i recommend internal arts to everyone i know. however, if you don't have patience, don't even think about it. that was one side-effect that i had to learn (patience) because no internal art is fast-paced ;)
-
Originally posted by TheCelestialOne
*twack*
Thats Aikido :D
and JiuJitsu.
-
Originally posted by Havock
and JiuJitsu.
Hmmm, I really thought it was Aikido. Well, must've forgotten :p It's not like I know the name of every move in Jiu-Jitsu :p
-
I did Kendo a few years back. Been actually thinking of doing it again, since it was so much fun whacking people over the head with a bamboo stick! :D
-
Originally posted by Stealth
pyro: i recommend internal arts to everyone i know. however, if you don't have patience, don't even think about it. that was one side-effect that i had to learn (patience) because no internal art is fast-paced ;)
Yeah, that's the one problem (me is super-lazy :D). I'm interested in the mind-control apsects of internal stuff - the Lau style is mostly external, so it's something I could do more of.
Ooh, I forgot - I'm a fencer as well. That's great fun. :D Not done it for a year now, 'cos of my stupid job, but I'll get back into it before the summer.
-
Could someone explain the internal/external thing? Are we talking mental/physical - or something else?
-
well basically, there's only a handful of internal martial arts, three to be exact. they include (names shortened) Bagua, Tai Chi, and Hsing-I. (note that since the translation between Chinese and English results in sounds, and not literal words, the names of the martial arts can be spelled differently, according to how they sound when the Chinese word is pronounced. ex: Bagua could be spelled PaGua, Pa Kua, Bagua, etc.). Anyway, so there's those three styles of internal, and literally dozens of external. some of the more common, well known ones include karate, taekwon do, kung-fu styles, jiu jitsu, etc. etc. etc.
External styles generally rely on force, Slow, gentle, calm, etc are the main characteristics of the internal styles. In other words, the external stylists train hard to increase their muscular strength while the internal stylists, their qi (life energy) and jing (internal strength). However, it's unlikely for an art to be classified SOLELY as internal or solely as external, many martial arts have a calm, mediation side of them, and likewise, many internal arts (Tai Chi for instance with its push-hands) have external aspects. Roughly speaking, the difference between internal and external styles can refer to whether the strength is from the torso and legs (internal) or whether the strength is derived from training of the more specific arm and leg muscles (external); whether the strength is primarily mental, or primary physical. The word "internal" often connotes a more pliable martial style.
External styles are generally fast-paced and quick to see results. A good way to think of it is thinking of a well-performed roundhouse or crescent kick of Taekwon do. fairly simple to learn, slightly complicated to master, very easy to use. however, an internal style may be practiced for 10 years before the practicer can "fight". this is because the internal arts aren't dedicated to fighting, as external are. Fighting is just an aspect of internal arts. other aspects include working with the mind, the qi (chi), etc. When mastered, the internal arts are extremely powerful and effective, in fact they're the most effective, but dedication is vital, since many take martial arts expecting to be able to win fights, and such, internal is not about that. it's a completely different system :)
-
[color=66ff00]Dude the internal arts are all about fighting, in fact I'd classify them as far more lethal than most other martial arts. The reasoning behind this is that the internal arts were designed to do the maximum damage with the minimum effort. This is the reason why there is no sporting side to the internal arts, a well executed strike could kill. (well in the non watered down versions anyway)
Also I think it's a good idea now to actually clear up the internal/external terminology. Internal styles are taken as those that were concocted in china, external styles are those that are not native to china. What you are thinking of is the difference between hard and soft styles which not only is more accurate but is also more descriptive. Internal and external have been transmuted from their original meaning most likely because most people identify the arts by these words, they were (mis)used so often that it just became commonplace to call the soft styles internal.
Also I'm not so polar in my opinion of hard styles, many are utterly fantastic arts. Karate for instance deals with a lot of the practices that the soft styles make use of; breath control, flow of Qi and body alignment. Remember that a good deal of the external styles are variations and adaptations of the chinese martial arts and thus contain a number of the practices of the soft styles.
It isn't simple black and white, there's a vast sea of grey between the hard and soft styles. All martial artists strive for the mastery of body in any case, some consider the mastery of mind to go hand in hand with this but all are rooted to the same principles. :nod:
[/color]
-
I disagree Maeglamor. Through experience i can say that internal martial arts are not all about fighting. fighting is an aspect of the internal martial art. sure, they're more lethal than other martial arts, in fact, they're THE most lethal, but that's only after 5-10 years of training; as i said, they take a lot longer than externa sure, they're more lethal than other martial arts, in fact, they're THE most lethal, but that's only after 5-10 years of training; as i said, they take a lot longer than external. i remember us discussing internal martial arts a few years ago... i also remember telling you that internal martial arts are not all about fighting and punching and sparring, etc. there's a deep, "spiritual" side to them, one that many other martial arts just glance over, if even touch. Sure internal martial arts are the most powerful and the most devastating, but that doesn't mean that they're based only on fighting. There's many other aspects to them.
yes, it's true that a Hsing-I teacher once wrote that the reason martial arts are classified as "internal" and "external" is internal are the ones that originated in China, while external have roots outside of China. But, there's a lot of other martial arts that aren't considered "internal", although they originated in China. nowadays, an "external" martial art is one where it's focused more on muscle. "Internal" martial arts, on the other hand, is more focused on the mind and energy. External styles have hard and soft aspects, as do internal styles.
Xing-I, is an internal art, but is considered a "hard" art, because many of the forms ("wood" and "fire" spring to mind) are harder than karate. Tai Chi is primarily a soft art (internal), but it too has hard aspects to it, such as the "step up parry and punch" in Yang style Tai Chi.
Karate for instance deals with a lot of the practices that the soft styles make use of; breath control, flow of Qi and body alignment.
It isn't simple black and white, there's a vast sea of grey between the hard and soft styles.
yes, as i also said in my previous post, the external arts have internal aspects to them, and vice-versa.
The three orthodox internal martial arts have all incorporated Taoist techniques of breathing, meditation and medical theory into their methods of power, development (nei kung) and fighting movements... External arts are typically about power through strength training and internal arts art typically about power through body harmony. it's for this reason that there ARE more than the three 'orthodox' internal martial arts. many consider Judo to be internal, as well as Wing Chun
-
Originally posted by Stealth
I disagree Maeglamor. Through experience i can say that internal martial arts are not all about fighting. fighting is an aspect of the internal martial art. sure, they're more lethal than other martial arts, in fact, they're THE most lethal, but that's only after 5-10 years of training; as i said, they take a lot longer than external.
[color=66ff00]The problem is that you're working from only your experience, you should read more on other arts. I've only scratched the surface of the japanese arts and I can draw many parrallels in their practices to those of the soft styles. I would not claim that the soft styles are more lethal than every other style, that's presumptious and effectively closes you off to the possibility that there are more lethal arts (or that there are not, but either can only be proven by study). I'm not sure if you think that other forms have less value as they are not soft styles or that they have less value because they take much less work, Hsing-I can be learned in a matter of 9 to 12 months with dilligent practice, not long by anyone's reconing and by learned I mean can be used effectively to defend oneself. I don't think how long an art takes to learn dictates how effective it is.
[/color]
you mentioned "hard" and "soft". External is hard, internal is soft. they're synonomous defintions. A respected Hsing-I teacher once wrote that the reason the internal martial arts (as you said) are called "internal" is because they were originated from China, and the external arts have roots outside of China, but that's not the way to think about it. All three internal martial arts are mind-based. External arts are primarily muscle based... Internal = soft = mind. External = hard = muscle.
[color=66ff00]I think you just agreed with me there for the reasons I stated but I'm not sure if you intended to disagree or not. :)
Anyhow, I'm off to bed for now but I'll get back to this rather interesting topic (from my point of view anyway ;) ) tomorrow.
[/color]
-
The problem is that you're working from only your experience, you should read more on other arts. I've only scratched the surface of the japanese arts and I can draw many parrallels in their practices to those of the soft styles.
That's not true. Most of what i've said this far is from research, reading, and talking to people. I remember about two years ago (actually it's probably a little more, i can't remember too well :) ) we had a discussion similar to this, and i corrected you on many points. You (if i remember correctly) study Wing Chun, or at least you were when we were talking a few years ago. Wing Chun many consider to be an internal martial art, because many of its styles are soft, internal-like.
I would not claim that the soft styles are more lethal than every other style, that's presumptious and effectively closes you off to the possibility that there are more lethal arts (or that there are not, but either can only be proven by study). I'm not sure if you think that other forms have less value as they are not soft styles or that they have less value because they take much less work
I would. It's a fact. You know that as much as I do. Sure there's there's other "lethal" styles out there, but the most effective arts in the world are the internal styles. it's a fact, and you know it. the internal styles are the most powerful and effective.
Hsing-I can be learned in a matter of 9 to 12 months with dilligent practice, not long by anyone's reconing and by learned I mean can be used effectively to defend oneself.
there's a difference between "learned" and "mastered". A 10 year old child can learn to play chess, but does that mean he's mastered it? of course not, it takes many more years to master it. I know many friends who've studied (and some who still are studying) Hsing-I, and not one of them has considered himself "learned" within a year. It takes years and years to become proficient in an internal martial art, while (comparatively) it's not uncommon to see someone who's practiced a style of Karate for under a year to already have a 1st degree black belt.
I don't think how long an art takes to learn dictates how effective it is.
it doesn't, it just happens that the internal martial arts all take a long time to learn, and are extremely effective
EDIT: Bah you're quoting what i edited 10 minutes ago :D ;)
I think you just agreed with me there for the reasons I stated but I'm not sure if you intended to disagree or not.
If you're saying that internal martial arts are primarily "soft" and external martial arts are primarily "hard", then yes, i'm agreeing with you :nod: :)
The external martial arts, although engaging the body as a whole in generating power sequentially, do not use the body in a complete unit as do the internal martial arts. The external styles primarily use "sectional power" (ju bu li), which is a primary reason they are classified apart from the internal arts. A variation of this sectional power in the external arts is the special development of one part of the body as a weapon (iron palm, iron broom, etc.). The internal tends to forego these methods in favor of even development of the whole body, which m turn is used as a coherent unit.
Xing Yi Quan, Tai Ji Quan and Ba Gua Zhang all have unified body motion as their root; hence, they are internal styles.
-
Anyhow, I'm off to bed for now but I'll get back to this rather interesting topic (from my point of view anyway ) tomorrow.
yeah, it's good to have a discussion like this again :D goodnight, see you tomorrow
-
Took Kendo a short time a while ago, main motivation was to keep fit. Right now I just weightlift to keep fit.
-
Originally posted by Nico
Oh, the light and fast varient of what I use: table-fu :yes:
We artists rock, nothing more deadly than trowing a few pen-riken, performing some art-jutsu or fleeing while the opponent tries to get rid of the paint in the eyes :D
don't forget Kage-eraser no Jutsu :F
-
the multi eraser duplication? I don't have neough chakra for that one :p
-
[color=66ff00]I'm going to have to let the other points go due to an inability to provide proof or a reliable source at the moment, all but this one:[/color]
I would. It's a fact. You know that as much as I do. Sure there's there's other "lethal" styles out there, but the most effective arts in the world are the internal styles. it's a fact, and you know it. the internal styles are the most powerful and effective.
[color=66ff00]In order to know that the soft styles are the most lethal I would have to have a complete knowledge of every other style that exists, I obviously don't so I can't possibly say with any surity that your statement is correct so I'll have to asume that it isn't until I have enough information overall. So I'm not saying that the soft arts aren't the most lethal, I'm simply saying that the possibility exists that there is a form of hand to hand combat that is more lethal.
Does that make sense?
Oh and yes, I do study wing chun. :nod:
[/color]
-
Note: ALL martial arts can be applied in such a manner that it makes them lethal. There is no "most/least lethal". It's how you apply them.
-
Originally posted by Maeglamor
[color=66ff00]In order to know that the soft styles are the most lethal I would have to have a complete knowledge of every other style that exists, I obviously don't so I can't possibly say with any surity that your statement is correct so I'll have to asume that it isn't until I have enough information overall. So I'm not saying that the soft arts aren't the most lethal, I'm simply saying that the possibility exists that there is a form of hand to hand combat that is more lethal.
[/color]
hey man, i never mentioned an art being more "lethal" than the other! if was you! you said:
Dude the internal arts are all about fighting, in fact I'd classify them as far more lethal than most other martial arts. The reasoning behind this is that the internal arts were designed to do the maximum damage with the minimum effort. This is the reason why there is no sporting side to the internal arts, a well executed strike could kill. (well in the non watered down versions anyway)
and then you started saying:
I would not claim that the soft styles are more lethal than every other style, that's presumptious
you contradicted yourself :)
you were the first person to mention the word "lethal" in this page, and that was in the above quote ;)
so it wasn't me that categorized internal martial arts as the most lethal. it was you
:)
TheCelestialOne: yes, i agree with you on that for the most part :nod:
-
:doubt:
Originally posted by Stealth
hey man, i never mentioned an art being more "lethal" than the other!
Originally posted by Stealth
You know that as much as I do. Sure there's there's other "lethal" styles out there, but the most effective arts in the world are the internal styles.
:rolleyes:
-
note how i put "lethal" in quotation marks (i.e.: " ")... because i was quoting what Maeglamor said:
Dude the internal arts are all about fighting, in fact I'd classify them as far more lethal than most other martial arts. The reasoning behind this is {etc. etc. etc.}
Maeglamor was the first person to categorize the internal martial arts as more "lethal" than others. not me.
-
I think asking which is most lethal is a mute point. Any of you guys really gonna beat a guy to death ?
Also, I believe it's not so much which style you pratice, but how you apply yourself to a particular style, and an individual's general temperment, personality etc.
www.evadeblackbeltschool.com
got a couple of world and UK champions in our ranks no less.:D
(not me though):sigh:
-
yeah i don't really believe in using the word "lethal" too often when it comes to martial arts, but oh well
-
Originally posted by Nico
the multi eraser duplication? I don't have neough chakra for that one :p
Shadow-Eraser actually :D
-
[color=66ff00]At no point did I say that the soft styles are the most lethal. Please consider carefully:
Dude the internal arts are all about fighting, in fact I'd classify them as far more lethal than most other martial arts.
This statement makes no claim that those arts are the most lethal, just that they are more lethal than most I've studied. At most it's a mildly ambigous statement but my intention was never to claim that the soft styles excel all other styles in any case.
I would not claim that the soft styles are more lethal than every other[/b] style, that's presumptious
I don't see where I contradicted myself, moreso I really don't see how you think I contradicted myself. *shrugs*
[/color]
-
Originally posted by magatsu1
I think asking which is most lethal is a mute point. Any of you guys really gonna beat a guy to death ?
Also, I believe it's not so much which style you pratice, but how you apply yourself to a particular style, and an individual's general temperment, personality etc.
www.evadeblackbeltschool.com
got a couple of world and UK champions in our ranks no less.:D
(not me though):sigh:
[color=66ff00]The discussion of lethality is more of a consideration of which art is the most efficient at doing the greatest damage with the minimum effort. (that's how I consider it anyhow).
The soft styles rely on striking critical damage points on the human body (also known as pressure points or acupressure points depending on who you talk to. As an interesting side effect the soft styles also convey health benefits to the practitioner above those normally associated with straightforward physical activity. Still, my point is this: All martial arts (with the exception of those classed as sports and a few that are ceremonial) are designed to protect oneself, hence lethality is a requirement of a good martial art.
Obviously in the modern age martial arts become more of an interesting exercise form and are practiced less for their potential to protect the practitioner from attack.
I study Wing Chun because it's fun, requires no excessive period to master and it's pretty much designed for someone of my build and flexability. It's also a decent way to get fit and teaches me a lot about my body. :nod:
I never pursued it as a method of 'kicking someones head in', as meany other people have said, it's far more likely in this day and age that you'd use a gun. :)
[/color]
-
Originally posted by Gortef
Shadow-Eraser actually :D
isn't "bushin" the shadow part? :p
-
Originally posted by Maeglamor
[color=66ff00]Still, my point is this: All martial arts (with the exception of those classed as sports and a few that are ceremonial) are designed to protect oneself, hence lethality is a requirement of a good martial art.[/color]
and i agree with that. so what are we arguing about? :D :)
i never said anything about an art being more lethal than another though, only after you mentioned it
-
Originally posted by magatsu1
I think asking which is most lethal is a mute point. Any of you guys really gonna beat a guy to death ?
if it would save my butt, or that of a friend: yes.
-
Originally posted by Nico
isn't "bushin" the shadow part? :p
I thought bunshin is the clone part...