Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nico on March 11, 2004, 06:15:06 am
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Madrid, this morning, the main railroad station and 3 other trains at other places of the city have been hit.
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_888345.html?menu=news
There was 4 bombs, and the death toll is now of 173.
The ETA denies being responsible for those attacks.
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Ouch. Madrid, Madrid...
I hope justice will be served.
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if it was the ETA I doubt they would deny it, since that wouldn't really serve their purpose...
but horrible just doesn't fit to describe this.
I hope that whoever was responsible for this will be brought to justice.
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I saw this on the news this morning, something about Basque seperationist?
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Originally posted by Zuljin
if it was the ETA I doubt they would deny it, since that wouldn't really serve their purpose...
but horrible just doesn't fit to describe this.
I hope that whoever was responsible for this will be brought to justice.
The only thing is that this sort of attack is a massive step up from ETA's usual tactics.... I think last year the total count of deaths from ETA terrorism was (!) 3. ETA tends to focus more on disruptive attacks (i.e. on tourist areas, but with coded warnings), and assasinations IIRC.... certainly nothing I can remember in the last few years that has been targeted at killing as many as possible.
So a lot of people have been suggesting that Al-queda has some form of involvement, either with or without the assistance of ETA. Certainly it bears their hallmarks - i.e. precisely timed multiple attacks intended to kill - murder - as many as possible. And al-queda has threated US allies before, and in particular in relation to the Iraq war (having already attacked the British embasy and bank in Istanbul).
Either way, it's worrying. Lets hope they get the ****ers responsible.
EDIT;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3500452.stm
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Originally posted by aldo_14
The only thing is that this sort of attack is a massive step up from ETA's usual tactics.... I think last year the total count of deaths from ETA terrorism was (!) 3. ETA tends to focus more on disruptive attacks (i.e. on tourist areas, but with coded warnings), and assasinations IIRC.... certainly nothing I can remember in the last few years that has been targeted at killing as many as possible.
So a lot of people have been suggesting that Al-queda has some form of involvement, either with or without the assistance of ETA. Certainly it bears their hallmarks - i.e. precisely timed multiple attacks intended to kill - murder - as many as possible. And al-queda has threated US allies before, and in particular in relation to the Iraq war (having already attacked the British embasy and bank in Istanbul).
Either way, it's worrying. Lets hope they get the ****ers responsible.
EDIT;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3500452.stm
aye, thats precicely the thing, the spanish government blames the ETA.
But this kind of thing, is just not their style.
Not in a public train, which would kill as many people as possible.
And as you said, it does bear the hallmarks of Al-queda, wheter it actually IS them remains to be seen though.
Someone will probably take the blame during the next days or so...
And with luck, they will be caught
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Been a bit of tension between Spain and Morroco in the last couple of year iirc.
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Originally posted by Gank
Been a bit of tension between Spain and Morroco in the last couple of year iirc.
Over a pissy wee island, natch.
NB: More stuff on speculation over the perpetrators.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3500452.stm
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Aye, though I think its more over the fact that Spain occupies two northern Moroccan towns Sebta and Melillia. That and the war on Iraq and Islamic terrorists would seem to be the most logical culprits. Spain seems fairly sure its Eta though.
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Originally posted by Gank
Aye, though I think its more over the fact that Spain occupies two northern Moroccan towns Sebta and Melillia.
And then has the cheek to turn around and complain at Britain over Gibraltar. :rolleyes:
Anyway I think a lot of people are jumping the gun over this one. Lets find out for certain who it was first. ETA have been getting somewhat more militant of late so it could be them but as others have said it is a departure from their usual style.
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This is really a massacre. 173 dead and in addition 600 others wounded?
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so terriple
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Ouch
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indeed... double ouch
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What makes you think: Why terrorists never attempt to attack military targets?
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The IRA has been known to bomb British army barracks, IIRC. On the whole, though, a terrorist is going for a soft target which will cause terror amongst the population of his target governement :nod:
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I seem to recall that ETA holds little support among the basques, who were quite happy with their autonomy until ETA started to mess things up and Spanish goverment hardened their grip on Basque Land. But how separated "ETA" is, i say, are there many subgroups inside it or is ETA just another umbrella organization รก la Al Quaeda?
If performed by ETA, such a terror strike could backfire on Spanish goverment quite badly. If they harden their grip on the regime, the population propably starts to support more aggressive means to get rid of "too much goverment control".
But this seems to be not ETAish type of strike. Normally they have attacked against political and juristical targets, like judges, police officers and politicians. Attacking this large amount of civilians looks quite weird IMHO.
Oh, and the first one to say "**** THEY'RE ALL TERRISTS NUKE EM TO HELL" will face the wrath of animated .gifs [not derail].
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Inportant facts:
1 - ETA practically always strikes military and government units (Though one of the worst strikes was in 1986 (I think) in Hipercor shopping center Barcelona with more than a dozen of deaths) It's the place I go shopping twice a week.
2 - ETA has always given phone calls before the strikes (That is a true fact) though the toll of civil victims is always high although they claim tactical objectives. (IE - Hipercor Barcelona)
3 - ETA hasn't claimed officially YET being the responsible group for those attacks (And they always do). The government is specially interested in blaming ETA because of the increasing number of people against the intervention in IRAK.
That means that if AL-Qaeda is responsible of this, there could be a very inportant movement against the actual government (though elections on Sunday) for involving Spain into dangerous political decisions that threat population safety.
Since we don't know who has done this still....... many things could still happen.
There's not easy judgement in all this, it's too difficult.
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Considering that Spanish police recently arrested two ETA members with 500kg of exposive I'm leaning towards thinking this is their work.
You don't use 500kg of explosive to make a bomb and then telephone the police to tell them about it. You could make the point just as easily with 1/10th the amount.
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Yes you're right.
Anyway I just wanted to point the fact of a difference in the usual behaviour and the possibility that there could be other options.
It is also true that due to recent events with Catalan politicians, ETA is really interested in destabilizing the elections but with no clear motive.
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I wasn't actually responding to you SnakeEyes. You managed to sneak on in before me :)
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Originally posted by TopAce
What makes you think: Why terrorists never attempt to attack military targets?
Go after a military base and get caught and/or gunned down before you get close enough to do any significant damage. Go after a train station, where you can pretty much walk right in unhindered.
These guys arent that stupid.
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Just cowardly.
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It's sad when something like this happens...
This isn't ETA style at all... there were explosives set to blow after the actual strike. ETA wants to get support, not kill it, so all we're left to wonder is... who was it?
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ETA has used bombs in the past, but always has called in advance to warn that bombs were going off so civilian deaths and injuries would be minimized. ETA has always been politically sensitive to the fact that if it started killing large numbers of civilians many Spaniards would turn against ETA -- as would many Basque nationalists -- because wholesale massacres would hurt Basque hopes for autonomy and independence from Madrid. These attacks, and the fact that Madrid rushed to blame ETA, already have hurt Basque nationalist hopes. The Batasuna spokesman blamed Arab Resistance, a little-known group that Osama bin Laden reportedly has mentioned in tapes, so the possibility that this was Islamic militants is high. Spain did support the war on Iraq, as did Italy, so if this was Islamic militants then we should anticipate attacks of this kind in Italy as well.
http://www.stratfor.com/
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Sorry for slipping too fast Kara.
History shows that ETA has always mainly attacked Police, military personel and politics.
Though as DiamondGeezer said before... from time to time striking regular civilian population keeps fear in their hands......
ETA is mutated from the original beliefs in 1968 when the group was originally formed to fight against a Dictatorial Government.
As they say, now they only seek the independence of their region.
But also the behaviour of the group is changed with time and If they are finally the responsable group for these attacks..... It's difficult to know what something else, apart from fear, they are intending to gain (good words IncendiaryLemon).
192 deaths and more than 1000 wounded in March the 11th 2004. (and still counting for what it seems...):sigh:
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Granted I don't know anything about the ETA(what the hell does that stand for anyway) being from the States and all, but if they are a politically focused group, regardless of their tactics, this action doesn't do their cause any good. The Spanish government is foolish for declaring them the enemy so early, or maybe, now that I think about it, they aren't. If the Spanish government can pin this to the ETA, they can stir public opinion against the ETA and use this as an excuse to take the ETA out.
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There is a big mix of interests in all this......
ETA is a basque acronym and stands for "Euskadi Ta Askatasuna" wich means "Euskadi (wich is the basque name for the basque region) and liberty"
I was mistaken before...ETA was born in 1958
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Originally posted by Gank
Aye, though I think its more over the fact that Spain occupies two northern Moroccan towns Sebta and Melillia. That and the war on Iraq and Islamic terrorists would seem to be the most logical culprits. Spain seems fairly sure its Eta though.
i did not know that.
Oh, and don't rule out ETA working with an Islamic fundamentalist group......
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Originally posted by SnakeEyes
History shows that ETA has always mainly attacked Police, military personel and politics.
I would expect someone from Barcelona to know quite well that ETA hasn't only attacked those types of target though.
With their support rapidly dwindling this could be a desperate move to make them not look like the sort of idiots in America who go on about how the south will rise again.
As for the style of the attack the last two attacks by ETA were designed to stop tourism into the country by attacking holiday resorts and a commercial airport. It looks as though they are shifting tactics.
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The South doesn't need to rise again, we're quite content to know we're the center of the nation.
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Originally posted by Liberator
The South doesn't need to rise again, we're quite content to know we're the center of the nation.
Which, if true, makes them even bigger idiots then doesn't it? :D
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Oh, and don't rule out ETA working with an Islamic fundamentalist group......
Or a splinter group like the Real IRA deciding things werent bloody enough for them.
I'm inclined to believe it wasnt Eta though, most terrorist organisations claim responsibilty for what they've done unless something goes wrong and in this case the aim seems to have been to kill as many people as possible.
Lib, the south is the centre of the country?
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The south is the center of the US like the US is the center of the universe....
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Spain was/is one of the biggest supporters of Bush's foreign policy. This seems to be someone paying them back for that. Pure speculation of course.
Hmm, from what I know, Spaniards were largley ciritical of their government's stance of Iraq. Sucks it had to be the people that got retaliated against
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Originally posted by TopAce
What makes you think: Why terrorists never attempt to attack military targets?
Military targets can fight back.
Give a terrorist a choice between blowing up a miliary barracks with 50 solidiers inside and a nursery with 200 preschoolers, the choice will be obvious.
It's about body count and shock value. People aren't often "shocked" by a bunch of soliders getting killed as that's unfortunately part of what they get paid for.
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=4&u=/nm/20040311/ts_nm/security_spain_qaeda_dc_1
Al-Queda claiming it.
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Originally posted by Gank
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=4&u=/nm/20040311/ts_nm/security_spain_qaeda_dc_1
Al-Queda claiming it.
Any evidence yet to back it?
what a damned shame....
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Originally posted by karajorma
I would expect someone from Barcelona to know quite well that ETA hasn't only attacked those types of target though.
Geeeeezzzz Karajorma... I said mainly not only.......
About the turist "possible attacks" there's been a lot of speculation on that matter and also....
I've studied history, I've been in the basque region a couple of times and also I listen to the news often. Be sure I know what I'm talking about.
Anyway......It seems now that Al Qaeda is probably the author of the attacks so.... maybe...you might find that some things I said before have meaning.
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*sigh*
this only adds fuel to the flame..
If they are going after the supporters for the Iraq war, there are many other possible countries that might have terrorist acts against them in the near future, as said earlier, Italy for example, or even Britain or the US again.
meh...this could get really ugly (as if it wasn't already)
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Something tells me Lib never lived in the South... if you do, I challenge you to go one day without meeting at least three people who will, if prompted, go on at length about the War of Northern Aggression, and how Lee was second only to Jesus in the history of great men.
And... why can't we just have a designated "blowing **** up area" of the planet where all the militant political types can go and shoot the **** out of each other, and the survivors from that are officially declared the "winners"? Somewhere nice and remote. Be nice for the terrorist types 'cos then they don't have to worry about, y'know, everyone percieving them as total bastards and uniting to get 'em and hence they can focus on what they're good at, be nice for everyone else 'cause you'd still get all the great dramatic news footage without the hassle.
Yeah, it's impractical 'cause it's not so much fun to kill people when it's okay to do so, but still. I like the image.
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Me and Aldo want to use the Isle of Wight for just that purpose :nod:
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you think it's big enough ?
how about Wales ?
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--> ISLE <-- of Wight
Emphasis on 'Isle'
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Me and Aldo want to use the Isle of Wight for just that purpose :nod:
No.... we were going to wall up the Isle of Wight and use it for anarchists, weren't we?
We'll give the militant nutcases Milton Keynes - it'll improve the area. Or Bognor Regis, cos the name sounds crap.
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Seriously dude, I'm gonna make 'em do this **** on an island. Like the Isle of Mann, for example
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Seriously dude, I'm gonna make 'em do this **** on an island. Like the Isle of Mann, for example
Well, you could always use controlled nuclear explosions to create and island. :nod:
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
Something tells me Lib never lived in the South... if you do, I challenge you to go one day without meeting at least three people who will, if prompted, go on at length about the War of Northern Aggression, and how Lee was second only to Jesus in the history of great men.
For your information I live in Alabama, Athens to be specific. 25 short miles from Huntsville, the Rocket City, down US Hwy 72.
Most people have the misguided impression that the South is the same as it was following the Civil War. In point of fact we moved on long ago, we are technically advanced, industrially independant and quite content. I have yet, in my 25 years, to encounter anyone who believes as you say we all do, and I take offense to the implication. Why don't you come down here and live for a year and see if you think the same way.
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Manassas, Virginia, which is actually relatively cosmopolitan compared to most places, all but five years of my goddamn life. Been around the rest of the region, seen if anything far more of the same. Dunno what Yankee-sympathizing aberration part of the South you live in, but everywhere else is, well, I was being downright charitable in my summation. Perhaps you should take a look outside your state, the rest of the region's always looked crosswise at Alabama for one reason or another anyways so it's hardly representative. The very fact that you can "take offense" at the idea of Confederate symps in the South shows how wholly disconnected you are from the area.
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Aldo, the trick is to put them all on Skye, THEN use the Nuclear Weapons ;)
Actually, no, use the Isle of Wight, Skye's quite nice :D
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I wonder do the spainish people connect this to Spain's suport for the US? I would imagine they do, but I would hope they would think better than that
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Caught a headline on CNN.com said some al Qaeda sattelite had taken credit, but there wasn't anything more than that I don't think...
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yeah, Brigade of Abu Hafs al-Masri
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Originally posted by SnakeEyes
Geeeeezzzz Karajorma... I said mainly not only.......
About the turist "possible attacks" there's been a lot of speculation on that matter and also....
I've studied history, I've been in the basque region a couple of times and also I listen to the news often. Be sure I know what I'm talking about.
Anyway......It seems now that Al Qaeda is probably the author of the attacks so.... maybe...you might find that some things I said before have meaning.
I'm not disagreeing over whether ETA did it or not. I'm mearly saying people shouldn't be so quick to rule them out.