Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: karajorma on March 11, 2004, 11:22:25 am
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The Americans held them for 2 years! One of them was "captured" by the Americans inside prison cell where he was being held for being a british spy! :rolleyes:
Click me (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3500156.stm)
Now I don't think that Britain can claim any moral superiority for this since we are still holding suspects without trial too but you do have to wonder why the Americans heald them for so long.
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We held them for so long because our current administration considers the Constitution of the United States to be a sort of quick reference guide, not an actual instrument of governance.
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They're supposed to have been caught fighting British and American forces. If this is proven true I will personally bum rape them with a large vegetable of some sort. Don't care what they thought they were fighting for - you live under British citizenship, you don't fight against this country for a foreign power
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
They're supposed to have been caught fighting British and American forces. If this is proven true I will personally bum rape them with a large vegetable of some sort. Don't care what they thought they were fighting for - you live under British citizenship, you don't fight against this country for a foreign power
Actually, I don't think they were.... because the 4 that are still being held were said to have been found 'in the combat zone', implying these ones weren't.
Not that it matters - they effectively can't be prosecuted on anything they said in Guantanamo, because it would be against British law (no lawyer present, for one thing).
It's just a monumnetal **** up. Even if anything useful was learnt from them, it can't be used because of the conditions they were held in.
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So, prisoners get transfered to Britain and two full day later; free to go.
Makes you wonder about the other 700+ prisoners. How many of those are completely innocent? My guess would be: most.
I mean, just look at Canada's Arar case. He did nothing, absolutely nothing wrong, and yet US agents were, in their minds, able to build a sufficient case against him to warrant deportation.
I am deeply, deeply mistrustful of ANY system which is not open to public scrutiny. Cause then, you just have to take the nice man's word for it. And when that man is time and again proven to be a liar...well you still have to take his word 'cause you've got no other choice. God Bless America.
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
They're supposed to have been caught fighting British and American forces. If this is proven true I will personally bum rape them with a large vegetable of some sort. Don't care what they thought they were fighting for - you live under British citizenship, you don't fight against this country for a foreign power
I 100% agree with the sentiments DG. However at least one of these guys wasn't fighting anyone. He may have been incredibly stupid (Going into Afghanistan soon after 9/11 probably ranks as one of the most stupid decsions ever made) but it doesn't appear like he was a fighting for the taliban. In fact as I said before it seems as if he was in prision (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/3498428.stm)
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I have zero sympathy. To quote FS2, "When you sign up for the wrong team, you get what you deserve."
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They werent on the wrong team. Helps if you read whats been posted before you, dont look so stupid then.
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Originally posted by ionia23
I have zero sympathy. To quote FS2, "When you sign up for the wrong team, you get what you deserve."
I felt like that until I learnt that they weren't on the wrong team as Gank says.
The bigger point though is that even if these people were guilty they should have been charged and put on trial. If not for their sakes, due to the fact that detention without trial and the kind of crap that went on in camp X-ray is an insult to Amerca and Britains reputations as free democratic nations.
How can anyone claim to live in the land of the free when something like that could happen?
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Wow, such moral certainty. I wish I had that, really I do.
Its must be wonderful to live life like that. No more pointless logic, reason, discussion or any of those other silly concepts. In the post 9/11 world, they're outdated, haven't you heard? You simply declare your team to be THE team, and everypone ese can kindly go to hell.
Why do they deserve death? Cause they're wrong. How do you know they're wrong? Well, they don't agree with you, do they. Lovely.
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I give the human race 10 years. 20 at the most.
That is all.
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Originally posted by Rictor
Wow, such moral certainty. I wish I had that, really I do.
Its must be wonderful to live life like that. No more pointless logic, reason, discussion or any of those other silly concepts. In the post 9/11 world, they're outdated, haven't you heard? You simply declare your team to be THE team, and everypone ese can kindly go to hell.
Why do they deserve death? Cause they're wrong. How do you know they're wrong? Well, they don't agree with you, do they. Lovely.
Well, actually, yes.
"You cannot reason with a terrorist. All you can do is cut his head off." - James Woods
It is that cut and dry.
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not to mention "due process" ofcourse
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the 9/11 victims didn't get due process. tit for tat.
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So what, you just keep killing each other till theres none of you left? Great.
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Originally posted by ionia23
Well, actually, yes.
"You cannot reason with a terrorist. All you can do is cut his head off." - James Woods
It is that cut and dry.
You can't reason with a terrorist. You also can't reason with people like you, cause you're just as set in your narrowmindedness as they.
When you start down the "don't try to understand them, just kill em all" road...well you might not like where you end up. What you are advocating, more or less, is might makes right. Which will suit you just fine, until you are no longer on the "right" side. And then, then you'll be wishing there was more people who tried to understand the problem instead of simply throwing bullets at it.
I was inclined to start yelling, but there's really no reason. Before long, Stryke or anon or someone will show up, and they'll be more than happy to oblige.
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Originally posted by ionia23
the 9/11 victims didn't get due process. tit for tat.
Nietzsche.
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Originally posted by Gank
So what, you just keep killing each other till theres none of you left? Great.
Well, that's one possible solution I suppose.
The hard reality is there is no solution, there's only what is done. The two sides in this matter will never, EVER be able to co-exist peacefully. Sooner or later there will be a decisive conflict to end it one way or another.
So, basically, people can yell all they want about how horrid Americans (or American policy) or our "allies" are regarding the handling on 9/11 and beyond. That's fine. You go right ahead with that. We didn't ask to be in this situation, and simply lying down and "taking it" is out of the question.
I wonder what people in the world would have thought of us if there had been no response whatsoever to 9/11....
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didn't the victims of 9/11 get money. If they did they should be ****ing happy!!! if i where president they wouldn't have gotten ****! You heard me. :stare:
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Originally posted by Gank
So what, you just keep killing each other till there's none of you left? Great.
I assume that's what'll happen in the Middle-East :nod:
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Originally posted by Kalfireth
I give the human race 10 years. 20 at the most.
Because now it's starting to act foolishly?
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Originally posted by ionia23
The hard reality is there is no solution, there's only what is done. The two sides in this matter will never, EVER be able to co-exist peacefully. Sooner or later there will be a decisive conflict to end it one way or another.
Well,
Originally posted by ionia23
So, basically, people can yell all they want about how horrid Americans (or American policy) or our "allies" are regarding the handling on 9/11 and beyond. That's fine. You go right ahead with that. We didn't ask to be in this situation, and simply lying down and "taking it" is out of the question.
Umm, it was the US's actions which got it in this position in the first place, supporting Israel unconditionally in its land grab, stationing troops in Saudi Arabia, supporting oppresive regions in the middle east and generally interfering continously in the region to further its own ends, not to mention training and funding Bin Laden and co to be terrorists in the first place. You made the mess in the first place, now your bent on making it worse.
I wonder what people in the world would have thought of us if there had been no response whatsoever to 9/11....
As opposed to what they think of you when your response is contrary to the ideals and beliefs you claim to be defending?
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
I assume that's what'll happen in the Middle-East :nod:
With the crusades mentality thats floating about with fundamentalists and the ignorant I'd say it wont be limited to just there.
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So it's no response or an utterly imbecilic response that destroys what's left of the reasons America was a country one could be proud to be a citizen of, no other option. Well **** me sideways with a cold grapefruit spoon.
And I think ****ing over a good third of the entire god-damned planet to push an ignorant and utterly unworthy agenda during the Cold War qualifies as "asking for it", in the most emphatic way possible.
Funny how the "hard realities" never have anything to do with reality at all. There really is a solution, it's very simple- at this rate, the US doesn't have very long to do something, or the problem will be solved for all of us, and we'll all be right ****ed. Two decades at best, doing just what we do now, and the US won't be around any more. The terrorists, who operate on nothing less substantial than basic human hatreds, will be doing just fine then, and forever afterwards. They win, good job, you lot had the upper hand, the power to end all this **** for at least a few decades, and you ****ed it up chasing a chimpanzee on wacky adventures around the world.
On the other hand, undercut the ****ers in a manner that's actually effective (validating every accusation bin Laden and his ilk ever made against us isn't), make a working plan for the long term instead of just postponing all the **** that's gonna come crashing down a few more years and making it the worse for that, you've got a power that could last centuries, and even (oh idealistic me) one that could actually make the world a better place rather than poisoning everything it touches. But no, much more fun to let the cowboy jackasses run things, live in this us-and-them delusion, and secure our name in the history books as the shortest and ugliest empire ever.
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Originally posted by Gank
Umm, it was the US's actions which got it in this position in the first place, supporting Israel unconditionally in its land grab
1. Unless you come from a country that didn't sign the Geneva Convention, hush. You are as much to blame for the situation as we are.
2. We are also the people who persuaded Israel to give up land for peace, which the Palestinians balked at at the last minute. So, again, hush. We've held Israel back on countless occasions when they have had every right to defend themselves. Look at a map, for chrissakes! Israel is SURROUNDED! Would you feel better if we just walked out and said "You're on your own"?
stationing troops in Saudi Arabia
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You don't see the Saudi Arabian Royal Family asking us to leave, now, do you?
supporting oppresive regions in the middle east and generally interfering continously in the region to further its own ends not to mention training and funding Bin Laden and co to be terrorists in the first place.
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Of course, no examples provided other than the Soviet-Afghan war and what may or may not be a loose dig at Saddam Hussein. Just a blanket statement. Fine, I'll address it.
The Soviet-Afghan war: Our "interference" served two purposes. On one hand, it allowed the two superpowers to have a serious smackdown without sending the rest of the planet back to the stone age. Two: Our "interference" gave the Afghans the extra edge they needed to beat the most powerful army on the face of the planet. By all right, Al-Quaeda (sp?) should be our allies!
You'll also notice we're on signifgantly better (not perfect) terms with the former Soviet empire.
As for Iraq, now it's a mess. You've got 1/2 the country loving him, 1/2 the country hating him, and pretty much all of them hating us. So much for gratitude I suppose. We put a turncoat in power. Bad idea. Close to 600 US soldiers have already been killed in the process of defending a group of people who hate the very people trying to protect them. A little gratitude would be nice.
You made the mess in the first place, now your bent on making it worse.
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You're right. We believe that kids should be educated on something besides a fanatical translation of the Quran and hating Americans.
As opposed to what they think of you when your response is contrary to the ideals and beliefs you claim to be defending? [/B]
First off, you didn't even answer the original question. mmmkay.
But if you're referring to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Gods, man, what exactly do you think we're doing?
Ask an Aghan woman who grew up under the Taliban what she thinks of American intervention. Don't just talk to the kid who got hit by a stray bomb.
Call me closed-minded, whatever. I don't see you opening up to my side of the argument either.
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You do know the Saudi royal family is one of the biggiest sponsors of terrorisim right ?
And was anyone surprised to see US troops defending the oil ministry first and foremost ?
And what about all those rebuilding contracts going to US firms.
Britian (and others I think) fought too. And Tony B was Bush's biggiest ally, for better or worse.
How about some gratitude ?
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ionia23, here are some of the reasons why Americans are almost universally hated. Please feel free to correct any factual errors.
1. Military bases in 130 foreign countries, They don't want you there any more than you want say, Uzbek, military bases in America. The only difference is, they don't have the power to stop it.
2. A history or supporting dictators, tyrants and murderers to push America's political and economic agenda. In short, you made life hell for millions of people so that Americans could have it their way.
3. An economic empire used to rape the world for the profit of American corporations. People suffer so that Bechtel and Shell can line their pockets. A "comply or die" economic policy forced on the world by America (oh forgive me, they're called the WTO and IMF these days) for the profit of international corporations.
4. You pollute the Earth with a blatant disregard for the effects that it has on developing nations or on future generations. The environment is going to **** cause you want to drive a Hummer.
5.Forcing America culture, which sucks, down the world's throat. Reality shows, McDonalds and Britney Speers. America is actively working to remake the world in its own image. I won't get into corporate policies here, but the WalMarts and Starbucks of the world are spreading to every corner of the planet, regardless of whether locals want them there or not. And these actions are backed by America's political and economic influence.
6. Rampant military intervention in places where you have no business being. Global cops. What gives you the right and authority to militarily intervene in regional conflicts that have nothing to do with you. Latest case, Haiti.
When someone blows themselves up to harm Americans, they must have a VERY good reason to do so. And please don't tell me that its because "they hate our freedom". Thats a convenient lie meant to keep you from the having to face the truth. The day when the above list is no longer true is the day that you stop being targets for terrorists. Simple as that.
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Unfortunately, American culture needs no forcing. The lowest common denominator is both so low and so common it seems to be a universal. Wal-Mart may undersell with the advantages size brings, but there's a reason people prefer McDonalds to something recognizably organic, incomprehensible as it may be. The only "forcing" I've ever seen was that absolutely horrid propoganda campaign in Afghanistan, for which somebody shoulda been killed.
And actually pretty much anything that happens to Haiti would be an improvement, albeit not much of one. You could nuke the place and probably improve the average quality of life, last I heard.
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**** with people and they shalt ****eth with you.
I really don't see what the 'terrorists' are fighting for. The only goals I can see are: To remove American influence from all other countries, but if that happened America would collapse so they're never gonna do it; Or to start some kind of mass, global uprising by the Islamic religion, in which case they're completely retarded.
If it ever turned into a Holy War, most people assume America and Britain would get ****ed, but they'd have no qualms about removing the entire religion from the face of the Earth. Which for the terrorists is self-defeating (obviously).
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
Unfortunately, American culture needs no forcing. The lowest common denominator is both so low and so common it seems to be a universal. Wal-Mart may undersell with the advantages size brings, but there's a reason people prefer McDonalds to something recognizably organic, incomprehensible as it may be. The only "forcing" I've ever seen was that absolutely horrid propoganda campaign in Afghanistan, for which somebody shoulda been killed.
And actually pretty much anything that happens to Haiti would be an improvement, albeit not much of one. You could nuke the place and probably improve the average quality of life, last I heard.
Well, I think that Europe for example is less fertile grounds, if only marginally so, for Whopperization. There, and in most other places, you need some lobbying to even get permits to build behemoths like Walmart.
And regarding Haiti, the point is that, think what you may, you can't intervene unless in becomes *very* serious (we're talking Holocaust proportions here). You may be intervening with the best of intentions, but it will probably turn out bad in the end. And needless to say, intervening to prop up a dictatorial regime is not the best of intentions, go you can see where that will end up. The basic jist of it is that its not your country and you are not allowed to invade. Right or wrong, its their conflict, not yours.
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Originally posted by karajorma
I 100% agree with the sentiments DG. [/URL]
I don't, depending on the circumstances.
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Speaking as an American, I have to ask a very important question here:
Why are so many Americans so dead set against accepting responsibility for the United States of America's actions? Yeah, we're a great nation and yeah, we do help people, and no, we're not the evil empire that a lot of people like to make us out to be. But neither are we the noble, benevolent, democratic, just place we like to claim, either.
We've made a metric asston of mistakes in our foreign policy, and we've had some successes. Our successes have been grand, and our failures have been anything from minor to pretty damned serious. And yet, somehow, my fellow Americans refuse to believe that the people who disagree with us might--just might--have a case.
I love my country, you see. That's why I give a damn about what we do, and just as importantly, HOW we do it. Giving a damn about that, one HAS to question the justice of our actions AND the justice of the repercussions of those actions.
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Originally posted by magatsu1
And what about all those rebuilding contracts going to US firms.
They stepped back on that.
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Could you maybe provide some links? I have heard nothing of this, and I'm understandably a bit skeptical.
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Originally posted by ionia23
1. Unless you come from a country that didn't sign the Geneva Convention, hush. You are as much to blame for the situation as we are.
What in gods name has the Geneva Convention got to do with anything? And why is anybody who signed it responsible for Al-Quada? Please explain this nonsense or else hush.
2. We are also the people who persuaded Israel to give up land for peace, which the Palestinians balked at at the last minute. So, again, hush. We've held Israel back on countless occasions when they have had every right to defend themselves. Look at a map, for chrissakes! Israel is SURROUNDED! Would you feel better if we just walked out and said "You're on your own"?
Look at a map yourself, one of Israel in 1948 and one of Israel today. It occupys more land now than it did then. Due largely to US funding and support. Annexing land is not really considered defense.
You don't see the Saudi Arabian Royal Family asking us to leave, now, do you?
Not publicly, but funnily enough you are leaving.
Of course, no examples provided other than the Soviet-Afghan war and what may or may not be a loose dig at Saddam Hussein. Just a blanket statement. Fine, I'll address it
Supported the Shah of Iran for one,
Lebanon, US intervened as peacekeepers and promptly took sides.
Lots of other stuff, saw a list somewhere that I could dig up, got better things to do though.
The Soviet-Afghan war: Our "interference" served two purposes. On one hand, it allowed the two superpowers to have a serious smackdown without sending the rest of the planet back to the stone age. Two: Our "interference" gave the Afghans the extra edge they needed to beat the most powerful army on the face of the planet. By all right, Al-Quaeda (sp?) should be our allies!
It was your interference that put the taliban in power. Who you claim the Afghans are better of without. See the problem with what your saying here?
As for Iraq, now it's a mess. You've got 1/2 the country loving him, 1/2 the country hating him, and pretty much all of them hating us. So much for gratitude I suppose. We put a turncoat in power. Bad idea. Close to 600 US soldiers have already been killed in the process of defending a group of people who hate the very people trying to protect them. A little gratitude would be nice.
The problem here is the US put Saddam in power in the first place and backed him for decades. If I was an Iraqi I'd be pretty sceptical of any US plans for the country.
First off, you didn't even answer the original question. mmmkay.
It was so naive I though it was rhetorical, . To answer it, I suppose people would think fair play to the US, they didnt let the terrorists provoke them into bombing somewhere or starting a war with someone and killing more innocents. but there wasnt much chance of that happening.
But if you're referring to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Gods, man, what exactly do you think we're doing?
And a concentration camp where you can throw anyone suspected of being against you is the way to go about this?
Ask an Aghan woman who grew up under the Taliban what she thinks of American intervention. Don't just talk to the kid who got hit by a stray bomb.
Fair play to ya, Afghans are no longer under the rule of ruthless religous fanatics, they're under the rule of ruthless drugdealing warlords. Such an improvement.:rolleyes:
Call me closed-minded, whatever. I don't see you opening up to my side of the argument either.
Cutting off the heads of anyone you think is a terrorist?, no I'm not going to open up to that "arguement"
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Originally posted by Rictor
ionia23, here are some of the reasons why Americans are almost universally hated. Please feel free to correct any factual errors.
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Ahh, snide rhetoric ahead. This should be easy. First factoid: "almost universally hated" is a rather gross estimation.
1. Military bases in 130 foreign countries, They don't want you there any more than you want say, Uzbek, military bases in America. The only difference is, they don't have the power to stop it.
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Again, gross misrepresentation. I hate to break this to you, but Al-Quaeda (sp?) does not represent the opinion of the planet, which is the argument you're going for. Not everyone likes us, not everyone hates us. Maybe in your neighborhood.
2. A history or supporting dictators, tyrants and murderers to push America's political and economic agenda. In short, you made life hell for millions of people so that Americans could have it their way.
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'Have it their way', okay that's cute. A history of, from time to time, supporting people who turn out in the end to be very bad news. It happens. We also have a history of crushing quite a few of your examples.
3. An economic empire used to rape the world for the profit of American corporations. People suffer so that Bechtel and Shell can line their pockets. A "comply or die" economic policy forced on the world by America (oh forgive me, they're called the WTO and IMF these days) for the profit of international corporations.
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See, now you're just being a crybaby. "Rape the world". Okay there. You're right, expecting to get paid for your work and your products is so devilish. It's called "capitalism". Or "greed", if you want to be that way. And we're subject to the same rules everyone else is.
4. You pollute the Earth with a blatant disregard for the effects that it has on developing nations or on future generations. The environment is going to **** cause you want to drive a Hummer.
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And this is coming from a computer user. Right. How many toxins in that precious little box of yours? Right. Stop wasting my time.
Btw, where did you get the idea I endorse SUV's/Hummers in any way? I drive a small Toyota Sedan. Does that make me only slightly less evil? If a Hummer driver "finances terrorist training camps", does this mean I paid for a few bullets?
Do YOU drive a car?
The environment is going to s*** because PEOPLE exist. IN the next 20 years it won't be Europe or the Americas polluting the planet, it'll be all the third world nations entering their own respective industrial ages. You mark my words on that.
We are collectively responsible.
5.Forcing America culture, which sucks, down the world's throat. Reality shows, McDonalds and Britney Speers. America is actively working to remake the world in its own image. I won't get into corporate policies here, but the WalMarts and Starbucks of the world are spreading to every corner of the planet, regardless of whether locals want them there or not. And these actions are backed by America's political and economic influence.
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Now we get to the hub of the matter. Just as I figured, you assume everyone believes as you do. Take a look around. If you have such an issue, either leave (assuming you're here), and/or stop buying American made or associated products. If you want to beat the system, that's how you do it.
Blowing up our buildings just makes us mad.
6. Rampant military intervention in places where you have no business being. Global cops. What gives you the right and authority to militarily intervene in regional conflicts that have nothing to do with you. Latest case, Haiti.
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Because sometimes it's the right thing to do, and because you lack the courage to do so.
As far as Haiti goes, by the way, what was the alternative?
And sometimes (vietnam) we're wrong.
When someone blows themselves up to harm Americans, they must have a VERY good reason to do so. And please don't tell me that its because "they hate our freedom".
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No. They simply "hate". It takes a lot of rage to walk into a coffeeshop of normal everyday people and flatten it. We don't believe in keeping women covered head to toe. We don't believe they are property who exist only by permission of a man. We don't believe not wearing your hair a certain length is a crime against the state. We don't believe blowing up big statues of Buddha will destroy it's memory forever.
And we don't believe flying commercial airliners into buildings, or releasing gas into subways, or executing people on football fields without trial, or blowing up shops is an acceptable way to resolve a political difference.
Tthey are laboring under the assumption that it will work. It won't. You will never sell me on the concept that there are any good reasons for a terrorist attack anywhere. Ever. If we were like them our response to 9/11 would be a general nuclear strike against Afghanistan geared to inflict the maximum possible civilian casualties. Remember that.
Thats a convenient lie meant to keep you from the having to face the truth. The day when the above list is no longer true is the day that you stop being targets for terrorists. Simple as that.quote]
Reality: We will always be targets of terrorists until their cause is a forgotten memory. And it's not just us, we just happen to be the new kids in the club. Spain got hit today. I dare you to tell me they had it coming.
Why does it happen? It's called the "zero sum" theory. You should look it up sometime.
The last person to commit a terrorist attack in this country prior to 9/11 was an American. We forget Oklahoma City too easily.
Good arguments, all. Time for the daily grind home.
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If it ever turned into a Holy War, most people assume America and Britain would get ****ed, but they'd have no qualms about removing the entire religion from the face of the Earth. Which for the terrorists is self-defeating (obviously).
There's one billion Muslims, including millions in the UK and US, in the world, you realise the idiocy of what you're suggesting?
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'Have it their way', okay that's cute. A history of, from time to time, supporting people who turn out in the end to be very bad news. It happens. We also have a history of crushing quite a few of your examples.
Umm, no actually you dont.
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[q] There's one billion Muslims, including millions in the UK and US, in the world, you realise the idiocy of what you're suggesting?[/q]
Ye gotta love that forward thinking in our old immigration policies.
[q]We also have a history of crushing quite a few of your examples.[/q]
Ye, and creating them. :lol:
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1. Military bases in 130 foreign countries, They don't want you there any more than you want say, Uzbek, military bases in America. The only difference is, they don't have the power to stop it.
Again, gross misrepresentation. I hate to break this to you, but Al-Quaeda (sp?) does not represent the opinion of the planet, which is the argument you're going for. Not everyone likes us, not everyone hates us. Maybe in your neighborhood.
huh?
What does Al-Quaeda have to do with America having military bases in 130 countries? And who says it is only terrorists who dislike America?
2. A history or supporting dictators, tyrants and murderers to push America's political and economic agenda. In short, you made life hell for millions of people so that Americans could have it their way.
'Have it their way', okay that's cute. A history of, from time to time, supporting people who turn out in the end to be very bad news. It happens. We also have a history of crushing quite a few of your examples.
You wouldn't have "crushed" those tyrants (and lost lives on both sides while doing it) if America hadn't put them to power in the first place.
Again, while you might to try to prove these arguments wrong, think. These are some (yes, a few actually) of the reasons why there is a majority of people who "hate" America. Hate must be triggered by something after all doesn't it?
If only the Borg would speed up their jorney here... :D :nervous:
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Oh and for all you "They've got better human rights now" people, I refer you to a quote I heard on BBC News.
"Yeah, it's great I can speak my mind without having to worry about who's listening, but at least under the old rule my daughter was safe walking down the street"
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Originally posted by Gank
There's one billion Muslims, including millions in the UK and US, in the world, you realise the idiocy of what you're suggesting?
You realise how hard British citizens would fight if they thought their soil was being invaded, right?
I could take 300 men, some guns and some petrol and raise a city full of Muslims to the ground without much trouble.
Now imagine 15 million Britons doing just that.
If there's one thing the British Empire does good, it's committing genocide against towel-heads.
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Originally posted by ionia23
Ahh, snide rhetoric ahead. This should be easy. First factoid: "almost universally hated" is a rather gross estimation.
I think so, you don't. Fine. Opinions can't be proven. Next.
Originally posted by ionia23
Again, gross misrepresentation. I hate to break this to you, but Al-Quaeda (sp?) does not represent the opinion of the planet, which is the argument you're going for. Not everyone likes us, not everyone hates us. Maybe in your neighborhood.
I never said they did. Remeber the recent "Who represent the biggest threat to world peace" survey? Bush won.
Originally posted by ionia23
'Have it their way', okay that's cute. A history of, from time to time, supporting people who turn out in the end to be very bad news. It happens. We also have a history of crushing quite a few of your examples.
You seem to think that you support them and then they turn out to be bad. This is not the case. You support them because they are bad people, because they are dictators. Becuase democratically elected governments are an obstacle to unfettered economic exploitation.
Originally posted by ionia23
See, now you're just being a crybaby. "Rape the world". Okay there. You're right, expecting to get paid for your work and your products is so devilish. It's called "capitalism". Or "greed", if you want to be that way. And we're subject to the same rules everyone else is.
And this is coming from a computer user. Right. How many toxins in that precious little box of yours? Right. Stop wasting my time.
Btw, where did you get the idea I endorse SUV's/Hummers in any way? I drive a small Toyota Sedan. Does that make me only slightly less evil? If a Hummer driver "finances terrorist training camps", does this mean I paid for a few bullets?
Do YOU drive a car?
The environment is going to s*** because PEOPLE exist. IN the next 20 years it won't be Europe or the Americas polluting the planet, it'll be all the third world nations entering their own respective industrial ages. You mark my words on that.
We are collectively responsible.
I agree, but its hard for the 3rd world to pollute when a large portion of them don't drive. As I said, 4% of the world's population uses 25% of the energy. DO you think this is fair? And how long do you think the world will last if everyone held to this standard? But I agree, we are collectively responsible.
However, what I was getting at is that U.S. companies (Britain being a close second) are the people who are out there, changing environmental laws to make more money. Its Exxon and Shell and Ford who bribe (what else do you call 1/2 a million in campaign donations) the government to loosen environmental restrictions. Face it, these companies don't give two ****s about the Earth, the bottom line is, well, the bottom line. Multinationals have your government eating out of their hand. And not just yours, most of the world's governments. the US just has the biggest capacity to do harm.
Originally posted by ionia23
Now we get to the hub of the matter. Just as I figured, you assume everyone believes as you do. Take a look around. If you have such an issue, either leave (assuming you're here), and/or stop buying American made or associated products. If you want to beat the system, that's how you do it.
Blowing up our buildings just makes us mad.
Well, thats one way, yes. But another would be to stop the lobbyists and the corporations they represent from making the gov't dance to their tune. And for the record, I think this issue is secondary to the other ones listed.
Originally posted by ionia23
Because sometimes it's the right thing to do, and because you lack the courage to do so.
As far as Haiti goes, by the way, what was the alternative?
And sometimes (vietnam) we're wrong.
The alternative is ackowledging that you are not smater or better or more civilized than anyone else. You can never enforce peace at the end of a gun. People have to work it out themselves. Its not your place to interfere. Its this sort of "holier than thou" crap that pisses me off. You think you have a monopoly on freedom and tolerance and dignity. Bull****.
To use the Haiti example, a Haitian rebel fighting Aristide knows more about freedom than your ever will. To you, its just a fancy word. You say the word and everyone falls to their knees and shouts "God Bless America". You know nothing of freedom because you have never had it taken away.
Originally posted by ionia23
No. They simply "hate". It takes a lot of rage to walk into a coffeeshop of normal everyday people and flatten it. We don't believe in keeping women covered head to toe. We don't believe they are property who exist only by permission of a man. We don't believe not wearing your hair a certain length is a crime against the state. We don't believe blowing up big statues of Buddha will destroy it's memory forever.
And we don't believe flying commercial airliners into buildings, or releasing gas into subways, or executing people on football fields without trial, or blowing up shops is an acceptable way to resolve a political difference.
Tthey are laboring under the assumption that it will work. It won't. You will never sell me on the concept that there are any good reasons for a terrorist attack anywhere. Ever. If we were like them our response to 9/11 would be a general nuclear strike against Afghanistan geared to inflict the maximum possible civilian casualties. Remember that.
Lets see. You bomb, starve and shoot people. Civilians.
They fly a 747 into the WTC and kill 2700 civilians. You bomb Iraq and kill 10,000 civilians. Explain the difference to me?
You say you don't believe "flying commercial airliners into buildings, or releasing gas into subways, or executing people on football fields without trial, or blowing up shops is an acceptable way to resolve a political difference."
Sure you do, you just never admit it, not even to yourselves. Since the end of WW2, the CIA has installed and supported a dozen dictators who have done exactly these things. These are facts. You can't just wash your hands of that. History doesn't go away just because you pretend like it never happened.
Originally posted by ionia23
Reality: We will always be targets of terrorists until their cause is a forgotten memory. And it's not just us, we just happen to be the new kids in the club. Spain got hit today. I dare you to tell me they had it coming.
Why does it happen? It's called the "zero sum" theory. You should look it up sometime.
The last person to commit a terrorist attack in this country prior to 9/11 was an American. We forget Oklahoma City too easily.
Good arguments, all. Time for the daily grind home.
I don't know enough about the Spanish situation to comment.
But what I do know is that people don't just "hate". I mean, think about that. What you are saying is that someone just gets up one day and for no reason at all, decides he's going to fly a jet into the WTC. That doesn't happen. Obviously, there are reason for it. You and I can dispute them all we want, but there are reasons.
The US is acting like a global bully. Excpet bully is a kids term. IN the grown up world, its called an Empire. And people resent that Not hard to imagine why.
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Originally posted by ionia23
the 9/11 victims didn't get due process. tit for tat.
That is probably the single most stupid statement I have ever seen on all my time on the internet.
Let me get this straight. Just because terrorists killed people in an attack on America you think that gives America the right to lock anyone away for 2 years without trial, without legal recourse and without even having any proof they actually did anything just because of the colour of their skin?
I've already stated that one of the Brits released was arrested by the Americans in jail for spying for the Brits. That pretty much lowers the odds that he was fighting for the taliban to close to zero. Yet you feel it's okay to lock this guy in jail for two years?
Originally posted by ionia23
Of course, no examples provided other than the Soviet-Afghan war and what may or may not be a loose dig at Saddam Hussein. Just a blanket statement. Fine, I'll address it.
You want the list? Fair enough.
1) America overthrows prime minister Mossadeq of Iran and installs the Shah in his place. The Shah is eventually deposed resulting in a theocratic system of government in Iran.
2) America overthrows the democratically elected president of Guatemala. This results in 200,000 civilian casualties.
3) Fearing that viet cong are hiding across the border America first bombs, then invades Cambodia, leading to the destablising of the country and 2 million deaths at the hands of the khmer rouge.
4) Americans back a coup in Chile to overthrow Salvador Allende the democratically elected president. They do this because they are worried about the effect having a maxist leader may have on Pepsi-cola's business in the country. The coup allows Pinoche in to begin his reign of terror. Thousends of people are disappeared.
5) America pursuade Osama Bin Laden to leave his life of luxury and fight against the russians in Afghanistan. Whn the war is over and the russians retreat having gotten what they wanted they abandon Afghanistan to fall into civil war.
6) America gives help to Saddam Hussein so that he can solve the problem they caused themselves in Iran. The ensuing 7 year war results in millions of deaths but doesn't result in the conquest of Iran further fueling the hatred the Iranians feel for America.
7) America back wanted war criminal Jonas Savimbi in his war against the communist backed government of Angola. When free elections are finally called after many years of bloodshed the MPLA win a landslide victory over UNITA. Jonas Savimbi refuses to accept defeat and starts the war over again. To this day children continue to die from landmines planted during the war.
And that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure I could find more if I tried. I'm not being anti-american here. I could compile a similar list against the UK if I choose to. But what many Americans don't realise is that if Iran and other countries are jealous of your freedom it's only because you insist on keeping that freedom to yourselves and bombing the hell out of any democracy you don't like.
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WW2 would also be a good example.
But I suppose that was mostly down to American weakness against the French than any imperialistic ambitions on the part of the USA.
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Originally posted by Kalfireth
I give the human race 10 years. 20 at the most.
That is all.
At least thirty. You know, when the oil runs out.
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I'll give them 5 years.
If they're not on the way towards a Utopia I'm putting Operation Urizen into effect and 'disappearing' some countries.