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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Drew on March 14, 2004, 08:56:14 pm

Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Drew on March 14, 2004, 08:56:14 pm
http://news.com.com/2100-1028-5172948.html

*wonders i he should start looking for good proxy*
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Stryke 9 on March 14, 2004, 09:04:21 pm
Such old news it isn't even funny.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Liberator on March 14, 2004, 09:05:21 pm
It will probably never happen, the Cable Industry is a strong lobby in Washington.  Besides, they can already get access to suspicious E-Mail and web-sites the same as everybody else.

That's the whole purpose of that legislation, to lock down the free speech that the Internet represents.  If somebody on some obscure website that gets forty hits a week says something suspicious they would be scrutinized heavily, when such speech is protected.

I urge all American citizens to contact their congressmen and senators and explain what this bill would actually do.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: mikhael on March 14, 2004, 10:08:55 pm
Yes, we SHOULD contact our Congressmen and let them know exactly what this bill would actually do.
[list=1]


In short, this proposal, when combined with the already onerous USA-PATRIOT Act will make it even easier to spy on John Q. Public. Further, adding backdoors into every network protocol lowers the security of EVERYONE and EVERYTHING on the internet to effectively nothing as soon as even one of the backdoors is found by a hacker.

So absolutely: contact your Congressman and let him know that this is the LAST thing the American people need shoved down their throats.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Thorn on March 14, 2004, 10:37:47 pm
The joys of not being an American Citizen.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Stryke 9 on March 14, 2004, 10:45:42 pm
Yeah, you get to see what'll be happening to you three years down the road.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Rictor on March 14, 2004, 10:47:47 pm
You said it Thorn.

Maybe its just me, but I always assumed that they already had this power, it was just never official. I mean, call me paranoid, but if I send an email with "suspicious" subject matter, I'm assuming some government data miner or some such thing will pick it up. Since when has the FBI/CIA/NSA/DOD done only what is currently legal? The only difference is, now they won't have to deny they do it.

However if this got passed, it would add a layer of legitimacy to the whole thing, and thats certainly not good.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Bobboau on March 14, 2004, 11:05:18 pm
and you realy think that your not being american is going to help you in the slightest
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Thorn on March 14, 2004, 11:09:53 pm
If the FBI does get some sort of evidence against me that I've done something illegal, they'll have obtained it by methods that are illegal in Canada...
FAIL
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Stryke 9 on March 14, 2004, 11:14:39 pm
Echelon. Open secret that they were scanning public Internet areas for suspect words and flagging them at one point, word got out and people started trying to overload the system by sending loads of messages with "bomb" "jihad" and the like in 'em. Apparently, they succeeded, and the program was supposedly shut down.

It's pretty much an equally open secret that they never really did end it, though. The whole point of the NSA's existence is electronic spying, and they make no bones about it.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Bobboau on March 14, 2004, 11:35:39 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Thorn
If the FBI does get some sort of evidence against me that I've done something illegal, they'll have obtained it by methods that are illegal in Canada...
FAIL


and this helps you how?
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: mikhael on March 15, 2004, 12:48:52 am
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
Maybe its just me, but I always assumed that they already had this power, it was just never official.

Well, not really, no. There's some things they could probably do unofficially, but there's some practical limits on what they can do just by the nature of the mathematics of cryptography. Right now, the FBI, for example, can't read my email in any kind of reasonable time. I use fat, deep encryption. Sure, they COULD break it, but by the time they do, I'll be dead and I simply won't care. Thus, their only alternative is to sieze my machine. THAT would take a court order, which they can already get. There's absolutely no reason to make it easier for them to screw with private citizens. And if they trot out the 'safety and security' horse, or the 'terrorists!' horse, fuck'em. I'd rather be FREE than 'safe'. I'd rather have my privacy than be 'safe'. I can take care of my own god damn safety thanks. If this passes, then my encryption software will have to have a backdoor for them to use.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Rictor on March 15, 2004, 01:13:17 am
/is replaying Deus Ex

Echelon IV was never shut down, just got upgraded into Daedelus. Of course, we don't have to worry about the governement spying on us anymore, 'cause after Daedelus merged with Icarus, and subsequently became Helios, it was promptly destroyed.

...errr, yeah.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Rictor on March 15, 2004, 01:21:52 am
I'm probably in some governement database. I figure I've gone to enough antiwar websites to get atleast that. The books I'm buying probably don't help either. Ah well, as long as I'm in Canada, the NSA can't nab me....unless they ask nicely. But hey, they're Americans, they'll never think of that, so I should be pretty safe.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Nico on March 15, 2004, 01:46:37 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau


and this helps you how?


Hmm, Bob, is telling you the FBI has absolutly no power outside of the States enough for you?
They tend to forget that the web doesn't belong to any country anymore, and USA has no right on it :o
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Turnsky on March 15, 2004, 01:52:12 am
Quote
Originally posted by Nico


Hmm, Bob, is telling you the FBI has absolutly no power outside of the States enough for you?
They tend to forget that the web doesn't belong to any country anymore, and USA has no right on it :o


:nod:
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Stryke 9 on March 15, 2004, 02:10:38 am
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael

I'd rather be FREE than 'safe'.


The problem being that you and I seem to be in the minority.

Nico: Welcome to Camp X-Ray, population 600+ and rising! Don't worry about inconveniences like international law, legal jurisdiction, or actual charges, we've dispensed with all the trivialities to bring the best of service to YOU, the probable terrorists populace! Now, if you'll just step this way we'll lead you to your outdoor cage...
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: kasperl on March 15, 2004, 02:12:21 am
if anything US based wants to sue me, they'd first have to get a Dutch court order to gather the evidence, and then they'd have to get a conviction from a Dutch judge.

bottom line: as long as i don't do anything except talk about bombs, i'm fine.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Bobboau on March 15, 2004, 02:16:20 am
if they realy wanted to **** you up do you think any of that's going to stop them, granted, you havn't done anything to have them to want to **** you up, and they know this, becase they'v read all of your e-mail :)

think about it, they have ten boxes full of printouts of you and your frends' plans to do something, there not (as styke just pointed out) going to let a little thing like the law get in there way.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: kasperl on March 15, 2004, 02:20:34 am
uhm, right.

there'd be this little practical issue of getting here to take me out, and of course, they could just hire a hitman to do the job, but so could you lot.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Zarax on March 15, 2004, 02:25:24 am
After the EU version of the DMCA i don't feel so safe...
They are starting to copy the damned US laws, so expect something like it in a few years here too...
Damn right wing governments...
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Bobboau on March 15, 2004, 02:27:20 am
but I'm not in the busnes of hireing hitmen, I probly would lose interest before I found one, the government on the other hand has about 3 dozen diferent agencys on ther speed dial that could have you dead before they hung up the phone.


am I comeing off as being serius? the last three post have been getting progresivly higher and higher levels of BS and I just want to make sure it's comeing out clear.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Nico on March 15, 2004, 04:23:14 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
if they realy wanted to **** you up do you think any of that's going to stop them, granted, you havn't done anything to have them to want to **** you up, and they know this, becase they'v read all of your e-mail :)

think about it, they have ten boxes full of printouts of you and your frends' plans to do something, there not (as styke just pointed out) going to let a little thing like the law get in there way.


Yeah, sure, the Black Helicopters™ would come and get me :p
If I had any plans to do stuff like that, I think the french anti-terrorism sections would find out way before your FBI peoples, anyway.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Zarax on March 15, 2004, 04:30:31 am
It's much more simpler and safer to hire someone near the target...
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Bri_Dog on March 15, 2004, 05:00:11 am
OMFG!!!!!!11111oneoneoneone t3h SkeYe iZ pHaLLINNG!!!!!1111oneoneoneoneone
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Rictor on March 15, 2004, 08:16:06 am
Quote
Originally posted by kasperl
if anything US based wants to sue me, they'd first have to get a Dutch court order to gather the evidence, and then they'd have to get a conviction from a Dutch judge.

bottom line: as long as i don't do anything except talk about bombs, i'm fine.


You think so? Ask a Canadian named Maher Arar what he thinks of that statement.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: kasperl on March 15, 2004, 08:26:02 am
mm, by the time the Dutch government made up it's mind about the legislation, i'd be dead, really.

edit:

this seems to be my 3000th post, how noteworthy.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Thorn on March 15, 2004, 08:29:34 am
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor


You think so? Ask a Canadian named Maher Arar what he thinks of that statement.

Yeah.. but he wasnt in Canada at the time though....
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Stryke 9 on March 15, 2004, 11:50:52 am
It's not the people who are planning attacks who have to worry. Any reasonably intelligent person planning to do something illegal will take the time to cover their tracks to some extent, making themselves less of a suspect. You and I, however, don't generally worry about how suspicious we might look to some government agency, and hence are more likely to be very much so.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Flipside on March 15, 2004, 12:02:36 pm
Meh, I'm not really that bothered, once again, if this happens, someone in Lithuania will write a freeware set-up, everyone will download that and the FBI will be at square one again.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Zarax on March 15, 2004, 12:05:20 pm
They usually discover thing when it's too late...
BTW fooling them is pretty simple, just use a dialect instead of a common tongue...
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: kasperl on March 15, 2004, 12:08:37 pm
or be smart and only discuss these thins IRL in some disco/noisy pub.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: mikhael on March 15, 2004, 12:46:15 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
Meh, I'm not really that bothered, once again, if this happens, someone in Lithuania will write a freeware set-up, everyone will download that and the FBI will be at square one again.


The next logical step--even before our friendly neighborhood Lithuanian hacker writes software without backdoors--is to make using non-backdoored software illegal in the US. Its not that difficult to imagine. If they catch an encrypted packet coming out of your machine and they can't backdoor it, they can serve a warrant and just confiscate the machine and/or arrest you.

That's the sort of thing you have to guard against when you see legislation like this.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: kasperl on March 15, 2004, 12:51:18 pm
it'd open some interesting episodes for industrial espionage. and pay-per-view sites as well.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: aldo_14 on March 15, 2004, 02:28:13 pm
Civil rights?  What's that?
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Zuljin on March 15, 2004, 02:52:54 pm
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
Civil rights?  What's that?


if things keeps going the way they are now, that statement will be just too true..
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Jiggyhound on March 15, 2004, 03:12:24 pm
isnt the world screwy ehy :rolleyes:

oh well, im pretty sure sometime during this century or the next, civilisation will probably implode because of own arrogance and destructive nature, so, hah. What are the goverments gonna do then, well whats left of them after angry mobs have lynched the majority of public figures once socirty breaks down. Take oil, once it runs out, what are we gonna do then? Oil makes the world go round, and im sure the fabric of society will break apart with its passing. Basically were screwed, what a lovely world.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Zuljin on March 15, 2004, 03:16:12 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Jiggyhound
isnt the world screwy ehy :rolleyes:

oh well, im pretty sure sometime during this century or the next, civilisation will probably implode because of own arrogance and destructive nature, so, hah. What are the goverments gonna do then, well whats left of them after angry mobs have lynched the majority of public figures once socirty breaks down. Take oil, once it runs out, what are we gonna do then? Oil makes the world go round, and im sure the fabric of society will break apart with its passing. Basically were screwed, what a lovely world.


we will find some sort of substitute for the oil, we just have to, or develop systems that doesn't run on oil.

But yeah, I agree...I give humanity 20-30 years
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Rictor on March 15, 2004, 05:10:19 pm
Well, thats the hope anyway.

It seems logical that up-and-comming superpowers like China would pour a ton of R&D money into alternate energy sources, seeing as how America already contrls the oil and they don't seem to be overly keen on letting go.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: aldo_14 on March 15, 2004, 05:18:14 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
Well, thats the hope anyway.

It seems logical that up-and-comming superpowers like China would pour a ton of R&D money into alternate energy sources, seeing as how America already contrls the oil and they don't seem to be overly keen on letting go.


It's probably more useful for them (China, principally) not to..... if in 10-20 years time there is a global oil shortage, then controlling the scarce supplies will make the Chinese government even more powerful.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: adwight on March 15, 2004, 06:58:14 pm
We always have the oil in Alaska if we ever need a supply.  That's another thing our damn government doesn't care about.  Gas prices.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: aldo_14 on March 15, 2004, 07:29:41 pm
Quote
Originally posted by adwight
We always have the oil in Alaska if we ever need a supply.  That's another thing our damn government doesn't care about.  Gas prices.


Or.... you could just cut down power and gas use for the sake of the rest of the world and yourself?

More efficient cars = Less petrol use = less demand = cheaper prices
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Solatar on March 15, 2004, 07:30:54 pm
Don't we pay taxes on gasoline? To the government?
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Rictor on March 15, 2004, 08:00:42 pm
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14


Or.... you could just cut down power and gas use for the sake of the rest of the world and yourself?

More efficient cars = Less petrol use = less demand = cheaper prices


Heresy! Everyone knows that

a)The world's oil supply is unlimited.

and

b)Americans are the only ones who really deserve it. The rest of the world is either terrorirsts or terrorist appeasers.

Besides, don't they use donkey's or something? I can't just "use less gas" like you suggest. If I did that, I would no longer be able to have the biggest, baddest SUV on the road. And that's a sacrfice I'm simply unwilling to make. I mean, if my car can't run over a standard size road blockade, then whats the point of even driving? My kids will be too ashamed to show their face at school, knowing that other kid's moms are richer and own a more luxurious car. I'm sure you understand.

And if you don't, just what precisely the hell are you going to do about it?

Thought so.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: elorran on March 15, 2004, 08:24:30 pm
Fortunately for the rest of us mistakes of nature like the above poster don't happen all to often :D
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Knight Templar on March 15, 2004, 08:42:55 pm
Fortunately, I'm not a mom, so I don't have to worry about those kinds of thing.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Drew on March 15, 2004, 08:49:28 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Solatar
Don't we pay taxes on gasoline? To the government?

about half of the cost of gas is taxes :(

Quote
Originally posted by Rictor


Heresy! Everyone knows that

a)The world's oil supply is unlimited.

For the time being, we really dont have much to worry about. The world oil reserves are largely intact, some regions havnt even been drilled yet. WIth new tech like hybrid engins (i see 1 out of 15  cars on the streets around here) in about 50 years cars will be getting like 80mpg.  

Quote
b)Americans are the only ones who really deserve it. The rest of the world is either terrorirsts or terrorist appeasers.

Besides, don't they use donkey's or something? I can't just "use less gas" like you suggest. If I did that, I would no longer be able to have the biggest, baddest SUV on the road. And that's a sacrfice I'm simply unwilling to make. I mean, if my car can't run over a standard size road blockade, then whats the point of even driving? My kids will be too ashamed to show their face at school, knowing that other kid's moms are richer and own a more luxurious car. I'm sure you understand.
[/B]


:wtf:  

Thats one of the most pointless things i have ever heard you say.  Try using more objective information and less subjective, biased, sarcasm. Make a point for gods sake.

Gas prices effectivly keep the SUV population in check. On the west coast it costs like $2.60 per gallon, incidentilay(sp) when my freind went to san diego he (literaly) didnt see one large size SUV. Included with other living expenses (siginificantly higher on the west coast), normal people dont have that kind of money. But if someone actually has the money to out $80 bucks per fill; who can sblame them for what they do with there money. of money.    On the east coast we have to pay like 1.60 + the cost of living here is significantly lower and there is a massive SUV population. (alot of families *need* the room)
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Grey Wolf on March 15, 2004, 08:54:55 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
/is replaying Deus Ex

Echelon IV was never shut down, just got upgraded into Daedelus. Of course, we don't have to worry about the governement spying on us anymore, 'cause after Daedelus merged with Icarus, and subsequently became Helios, it was promptly destroyed.

...errr, yeah.
Was that serious, or were you referring to Greek myth?
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Rictor on March 15, 2004, 09:08:25 pm
Sometimes I make a point using logical arguements backed up by credible proof. And sometimes I just like to bull****. I try to make it obvious which is which, though perhaps I ought to try a bit harder? Eh, see. Thats me ranting and/or being sarcastic and/or making broad generalizations to illustrate a point. Collecticely known as bull****ting.

As for the number of SUVs and Minivans on the road, I would guess that where I live, around 50% of vehicles are either SUVs, Minivans or pick-up trucks. I could reasonably see that number jumping to maybe 70% in 6-8 years. And with both the Clinton and Bush administrations failing to impose more efficient fuel economy regulations on the auto industry, I don't see the amount of gas used by these types of vehicles miraculously dropping overnight.

As for hybrids, it is more than likely that their technological progress and acceptance into society is intentionally being thwarted by parties with a vested interest in maintaining oil as the car fuel of choice. With oil being the single biggest industry in the world (as I recall), it would take a real push by someone, to counter the combined influecne of the US government, the oil industry, the auto industry and the governments (and lobby groups) of various oil-rich countries.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Rictor on March 15, 2004, 09:11:25 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
Was that serious, or were you referring to Greek myth?


Dead serious man. The stuff that going on, you would not believe.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Grey Wolf on March 15, 2004, 09:13:53 pm
I wasn't quite sure, considering the crazy things they name government programs. The "*snicker*" kind of gave it away though.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: mikhael on March 15, 2004, 09:16:28 pm
Man, I want a Toyota Prius SO bad. :) I drove one of those babies during the week I was in Florida... I filled up the tank ONCE and drove like 600miles (and it wasn't even empty when I filled it, I was just taking it back to the rental agency). They're quiet, accelerate and ride well, they corner beautifully and they're pretty close to one of the most comfortable cars ever. :D

I am not believe, for a moment, that the rest of you didn't realize that Rictor was being sarcastic. You guys been drinking?

For the record, people: we pay very little for our gas. As I recall, Japan and Australia pay nearly four times what Americans pay for gasoline. In fact, the only countries I was ever in where the gas prices were LOWER than the US were Bahrain, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Oman. A cookie to whomever can guess why.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Grey Wolf on March 15, 2004, 09:25:35 pm
No, not drinking, just out of it.

Meanwhile, I don't quite get the obsession with SUVs, especially considering the vast majority on the market. You all want cars based on minivans with less interior space and worse mileage?
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Ace on March 16, 2004, 12:18:53 am
Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
No, not drinking, just out of it.

Meanwhile, I don't quite get the obsession with SUVs, especially considering the vast majority on the market. You all want cars based on minivans with less interior space and worse mileage?


Because they're like... so like... awesome... and the Jones have one... and like I soooo can't let them out do me. Mrs. Jones is like such a poser, she has four American flags and like that whole "I won't be here during the rapture" bumper sticker. I need three crosses and like a bald eagle sticker, that is like sooo much more sophisticated than she is.

Seriously though, a fuel efficient diesel seems like a good idea to me. Afterall, you can put biodiesel in it and a few gas stations around here are providing that.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: mikhael on March 16, 2004, 01:04:17 am
Hybrid Biodiesel. Even better. :D
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Nico on March 16, 2004, 01:45:37 am
Quote
Originally posted by Ace


Because they're like... so like... awesome...  

Aren't they just big, fat and unuseful? I don't like monospaces, but I'd rather have one than those big, stupid things. Coz it's big too and you actually have room IN it :rolleyes:

For the record, oil in France, about 1€ /L
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: mikhael on March 16, 2004, 01:49:48 am
For all you undereducated sorts, that works out to about 4€/gallon, or US$4.93/gallon. I pay US$1.75 MAX. American don't pay hardly ANYTHING for their gas. We've got absolutely no leg to stand on when we whine about the cost of gas.

I'd like to the US gas prices spike up to $5/gallon. Make those morons in their Hummer H2s  (13mpg highway, 11mpg city) REALLY pay for what they do to my air.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Drew on March 16, 2004, 04:04:40 pm
ever driven a Honda CRV? My (dad) bought one of those; it gets like 30(somthin 30-36 maybe)mpg gots great handling, small rollover risk etc. + theres a foldout picnic table in the trunk :D
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Zarax on March 16, 2004, 04:08:25 pm
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
For all you undereducated sorts, that works out to about 4€/gallon, or US$4.93/gallon. I pay US$1.75 MAX. American don't pay hardly ANYTHING for their gas. We've got absolutely no leg to stand on when we whine about the cost of gas.

I'd like to the US gas prices spike up to $5/gallon. Make those morons in their Hummer H2s  (13mpg highway, 11mpg city) REALLY pay for what they do to my air.


Not sure, but didn't president Carter try to rise the fuel prices "some time ago"?
You won't get something similar from bush, this is granted...
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Liberator on March 16, 2004, 04:55:31 pm
Europeans only pay so much for gas because of your VATs and you let the gas companies get away with raping you.  You should investigate them for gouging.

BTW, I am never going to drive a Rice Rocket.  If you can show me something that I can drive in comfortably for long periods of time(I'm 6'3" and weigh 300 lbs.), has good power and can survive a wreck without being turned inside out, I'll consider it.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Jiggyhound on March 16, 2004, 05:03:39 pm
As for alternate feuls sources, the japanese are developing the feul cell technology which runs off hydrogen ions, basically meaning processed seawater can be used as a feul. Ive only seen this work in a car, and it looked pretty cool. Seemed to handle similar distances and some what lower, but high speeds well.

And then theres fusion power. God knows when the goverments gonna pull its finger out of its arse and put much more research into this, but apparently a bunch of breakthroughs have been made in the past few years. It just might end up costing more with all those research and development costs though, even though it is also supposed to run on seawater.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Liberator on March 16, 2004, 05:17:46 pm
The problem with any hydrogen centric fuel source is it requires a large source of electricity for the processing of water for hydrogen.  The largest source of electricity in the world currently are Oil-fired power plants, so you aren't removing the oil from the equation, only the location where it factors in.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Flipside on March 16, 2004, 05:20:40 pm
What concerns me is that it may be too little too late. We have maybe 30-40 years now to effectively find a new power source, replace all our oil and coal and gas based ones, of which there are a HELL of a lot, and alter all vehicles, not just cars, but aircraft, boats, anything that uses an engine. The easiest steps are the cars, 30-40 years should be long enough to just stop making one kind and start making the other, however, replacing/refitting all oil & gas power stations in the world, I would say, is impossible in that time.
There ARE going to be countries left entirely without power, I'm pretty sure of that, not the rich ones, of course.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Liberator on March 16, 2004, 05:29:20 pm
You are forgetting Nuclear power sources.  If the weak-willed Enviromentalist Wackos will pull their collective heads out of their asses, they would realize that Nuclear power is actually very safe and produces a minimal amount of byproduct.  Granted that byproduct is leathal but there are ways to get rid of it, besides burying it.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Flipside on March 16, 2004, 05:31:42 pm
Yes, but Nuclear Power is actually pretty rare, and building a Nuclear station would be vastly expensive. Besides, Uranium isn't Americas' favourite substance to see bouncing around the third world right now :(
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Grey Wolf on March 16, 2004, 05:33:36 pm
Yes, nuclear is good. No, not all enviromentalists are wackos or weak willed. Yes, that was off topic, as we were talking about such things as cars, plains, and ships, and only vehicles at least the size of a nuclear submarine could hold a military grade nuclear reactor, which is far smaller than the commercial grade nuclear reactors. Also, I sincerely doubt the government would let common people power their cars with nuclear reactors even if it was feasible.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Hunter on March 16, 2004, 05:49:54 pm
Cough President Clark cough Nightwatch cough Ministry of Peace sigh cough Ministry of Truth

Anyone following? ;)
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Grey Wolf on March 16, 2004, 05:52:31 pm
1984?
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Flipside on March 16, 2004, 05:59:11 pm
hehehehe Yep, but no Minbari to save our butts this time ;)
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Zuljin on March 16, 2004, 06:21:02 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
hehehehe Yep, but no Minbari to save our butts this time ;)


yet, you mean ;)
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Rictor on March 16, 2004, 07:33:35 pm
Liberator, why would you think that people concerned with the environment are wackos? Isn't it better to care than not to? I mean, the figures are right there, and they're backed up by a great many scientists. Oil is not going to last forever, and even if it did, its wreaking havoc with the planet. 50 years down the road, I don't want my grandkids dieing at age 15 due to cancer or breathing air thats about as pure as the crap that comes out of you exhaust pipe.

I can't say I'm personally very knowledgeable in alternative energy methods, but they do indeed seem to be slow to catch on. Ofcourse, this has nothing to do with the oil industry. Nope, not a thing.

The trouble is, plastic is also an oil based product. So even if we were to simply stop using oil as a fuel, we would still have plastics to conend with.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Liberator on March 16, 2004, 07:42:59 pm
They are wacko bacause they don't actually care about the enviroment as much as they would lead you to beleive.  They use it as an means to power.  I don't don't delude myself into believe that humanity is capable of destroying the enviroment, damaging yes, but not destroying.  To do so is a grandiose power trip.

Good stewardship is all that is requied.  The "Third World" needs to be educated in and assisted in implementing modern agricultural techniques.  I mean America's agricultural output alone could feed half the world if it didn't sit in warehouses and docks rotting.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Grey Wolf on March 16, 2004, 08:11:25 pm
We easily have the capability to destroy the entire biosphere. Two words: Strategic Arsenal. Also known as nuclear weaponry.

Even without using nuclear weaponry, we're dumping massive amounts of toxins into the system. Do you consider it normal for eating fish to cause people to become poisoned by mercury?
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Rictor on March 16, 2004, 08:15:21 pm
The only want power

Power to do what? They have no real power, and even if they did its would only be the power to be consulted in matters of environmental policy. Its not like they're getting rich off it. So again I ask, power to do what? Obviously, if they want to have the power to influence environmental policy, they must care for the environment, so there goes that arguement.

We can't destroy the environment, only damage it.

Depends on your definition. If you're thinking in absolute terms, the total destruction of the environment is equal to the destruction of the Earth. Obviously, thats not going to happen any time soon. But if you don't think that we can make the Earth a living hell, you are sadly mistaken.

Just look at any one of the problems facing us today.

-Pollution, which leads to highly increased risk of cancer. Cancer, as you may or may not know, kills people.

-Rampant logging, which eliminates trees and fails to plant new ones. In case you are not aware, we need trees because they convert carbon dioxide into oxygen. Without trees, humanity can not survive.

-Global warming. Cold areas get colder, warm ones get warmer. Humans need moderate climates in which to live. If Canada gets much colder or Florida much warmer, they're going to be uninhabitable.The ice caps are melting, which means that in a century or so, costal cities are going bye bye.

-We are quickly running out of oil. We use oil in pretty much everything. Plastics are made from oil, oil is used to power your car. I'm sure it doesn't bother you, you live in America and are thus reliatively wealthy. But oil shortages are seriously going to affect poorer countries. With America using 25% of the world's energy, your (your as in the U.S's) overconsumption will directly lead to their misery. Also, oil used in combustion (cars) produces copious amount of pollution. See #1.

Can we outright destroy the Earth? Hell no. Nothing short of a few dozen nukes can do that. Can we make it virtually uninhabitable and kill off many millions if not billions of people. Sure can, just watch us.

The Third World needs to be educated

Eh? Didn't you just say that half of America's agricultural output is rotting in warehouses? What does that have to do with the third world. The International Monetary Fond, thr World Bank and the World Trade Organization are working very, very hard to keep the Third World from every getting out of the gutter. Why do you think they're so poor to begin with? They work harder and for less money than anyone in America. So shouldn't they be richer, or atleast on a level comparable to the First World?

Or do you believe that the IMF only wants to help the poor starving Africans and shower them with kisses and rainbows? For every billion in foreign aid that the Third World gets, they pay back double in cheap labour, tax havens and deregulation.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Liberator on March 16, 2004, 08:24:07 pm
You hate me don't you?
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Rictor on March 16, 2004, 08:27:44 pm
Confucious says: I hate you as much as you hate me.

And if that isn't a satisfactory answer, than no, I don't.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: mikhael on March 16, 2004, 10:23:23 pm
Go get 'em Rictor. Save me the trouble. ;)
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Nico on March 17, 2004, 02:40:43 am
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
Confucious says: I hate you as much as you hate me.


That's crazy how many things people make the poor folk say.
I have a nice one from him:
"The man who drops his watch in the toilets will have a ****ty time."
:p
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Bobboau on March 17, 2004, 02:56:05 am
chineese don't use the word 'the'

"man who drops his watch in toilets will have a ****ty time."
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: kasperl on March 17, 2004, 03:01:36 am
neither does latin, so i don;t  get all the idiotic translations.

and ancient greek only used "the" half of the time, IIRC.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Bobboau on March 17, 2004, 03:06:10 am
'the' is a weird word
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Nico on March 17, 2004, 03:45:30 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
chineese don't use the word 'the'

"man who drops his watch in toilets will have a ****ty time."


When you translate something, you don't give a literal translation, or else you'd get absolutly nothing. The chinese "words" aren't in that order either, if you wanna be truthfull to what he said :doubt:
I should talk using direct translation from french, that sure would be fun to understand ( we don't even use "the" either since we don't have neutral gender ).
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Fractux on March 17, 2004, 10:39:59 am
Agent 1: Agent Smith, why have you been staring at Fractux's download stream for the past 2 days?  Agent Smith?

Agent 2: I think we've lost another one. No one can survive for that long.

Agent 1: Damn, he must be hiding some secret information in all that Pornography.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Drew on March 17, 2004, 12:19:04 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
-We are quickly running out of oil. We use oil in pretty much everything. Plastics are made from oil, oil is used to power your car. I'm sure it doesn't bother you, you live in America and are thus reliatively wealthy. But oil shortages are seriously going to affect poorer countries. With America using 25% of the world's energy, your (your as in the U.S's) overconsumption will directly lead to their misery. Also, oil used in combustion (cars) produces copious amount of pollution. See #1.

actually, no.

http://www.frbatlanta.org/invoke.cfm?objectid=AB4F965E-E58D-4568-BCA4889D6E63C374&method=display#chart2

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1511/6_20/55926786/p1/article.jhtml

The Third World needs to be educated

Eh? Didn't you just say that half of America's agricultural output is rotting in warehouses? What does that have to do with the third world. The International Monetary Fond, thr World Bank and the World Trade Organization are working very, very hard to keep the Third World from every getting out of the gutter. Why do you think they're so poor to begin with? They work harder and for less money than anyone in America. So shouldn't they be richer, or atleast on a level comparable to the First World? [/B][/quote]
err? work harder? the uneplyment in those countries is more than %30-40 (ill have to ceck on that tho). Ever been to mexico? or romania? or hungary? or poland? or turkey? I have visited them all and its pretty self-apearent why they arnt out of the gutter. Its not cuz of the WTO.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Zarax on March 17, 2004, 12:45:08 pm
They have such high unemplloyement rates because of the very weak internal market...
It's akind of vicious circle...
People has no money, so they cannot sustain an high level internal market, which in turn cannot grow enough to create new jobs... Plus the fact that most third world countries resources are harvested by foreign companies, leading most of the income away from the local population...
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: aldo_14 on March 17, 2004, 02:20:24 pm
Or that third world countries are crippled by repayments made on interest, on loans to our Governments.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Zarax on March 17, 2004, 02:25:20 pm
This one is also true, although in Europe many countries cancelled or substantially reduced many third world countries debt (until the king of morocco used the money to buy 300 Ferrari... no kidding!)
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: mikhael on March 17, 2004, 04:05:11 pm
Looks like Time Warner (my ISP) is getting ready to get in on this and provide backdoor access for the FBI. Joy.
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Flipside on March 17, 2004, 04:13:39 pm
Time Warner are usually the first to give the government access to their back door I'm afraid :(
Title: FBI trying to get permission to wiretap internet
Post by: Drew on March 17, 2004, 06:25:53 pm
eh, if comcast allows the FBI to hack my computer..... there will be hell to pay.

we should all learn teh skillz and join Cyberarmy :rolleyes: