Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: Antares on March 17, 2004, 07:39:39 pm
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With FS_Open being improved as it is, it's also growing more demanding for system resources. My current system is pretty low-tech (P4 1.8 Ghz, onboard graphics (32 MB), 128 MB RAM) and while it could once run FSO pretty well, some enhancements are just too hefty for it to handle. My video isn't compatible with HT&L, playing in 32-bit mode makes things sluggish to the point where I have to turn off things like background effects to make up for lost framerate, and I can't even consider using extras like Lightspeed's planets and nebulae. It's reached the point where I've stopped using FSO, until the purchase of my new system in June.
My question is this: provided I wanted to play FSO with all the bells and whistles (Lightspeed's stuff, HT&L, fully-rendered modeled-to-scale Shivans that drift out of damaged ships, and so on), what kind of system requirements would I be looking at to ensure that everything runs smoothly?
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I would say the main weakness in your system there is the graphics card, it's that which is taking most of the strain, especially since the introduction of HT&L.
I run a 1700XP, which is roughly 1.4 Gigs, and I recently changed cards from a GeForce4 MX440 to a FX5600. The difference was very noticeable. I would say the game would run sweet as anything on a 1Ghz pc, probably slower, as long as it had a good amount of memory and a good graphics card.
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FS2 Vanilla Minimum Requirements:
Pentium 200Mhz
32 Mb RAM
Win 95/98/ME/NT
3D Graphics Accelerator (supports Glide or D3D)
250Mb Hard Drive Space
8X or faster CD-ROM Drive
Direct Sound compliant sound card
100% Microsoft-compatible mouse (joystick recommended)
FS2_Open RECOMMENDED Requirements:
Pentium 733Mhz or Athlon equivalent
128MB RAM
3D Graphics CARD (supports OGL or D3D)
300MB Hard Drive Space
8X or faster CD-ROM Drive
Direct Sound compliant sound card
100% Microsoft-compatible mouse (joystick recommended)
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I would put Fs2_Open's minimum requirements higher with respect to the amount of RAM needed in the system as well as on the video card. [like 256MB of Ram as an absolute minimum, and 32MB absolute minimum on the videocard]. Although, I for recommend requirment would put more than 256MB of ram and a 64MB graphics card.
As far as hard drive space goes, i would add like 500MB, because when I play, the memory usage goes up to like 700MB's, though I haven't checked on recent builds.
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My specs are as follows.
--------[ Summary ]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer:
Operating System Microsoft Windows XP Professional
OS Service Pack None
Internet Explorer 6.0.2600.0000 (IE 6.0 - Windows XP)
Computer Name EAPPLE
User Name Eric
Logon Domain EAPPLE
Motherboard:
CPU Type Intel Pentium IIIE, 733 MHz (5.5 x 133)
Motherboard Name Intel Cayman CA810 (4 PCI, 2 DIMM, Audio, Video)
Motherboard Chipset Intel Whitney i810E
System Memory 384 MB (SDRAM)
BIOS Type AMI (09/05/01)
Communication Port Communications Port (COM1)
Communication Port Printer Port (LPT1)
Display:
Video Adapter NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 (128 MB)
3D Accelerator Intel i752
3D Accelerator nVIDIA GeForce FX 5200
Monitor Dell E770s (2010V07VB7RY)
Multimedia:
Audio Adapter Creative SB PCI128 (Ensoniq ES1371) Sound Card
Storage:
Floppy Drive Floppy disk drive
Disk Drive Maxtor 6E040L0 (40 GB, 7200 RPM, Ultra-ATA/133)
Disk Drive QUANTUM FIREBALLP LM10.2 (10 GB, 7200 RPM, Ultra-ATA/66)
Optical Drive AXV CD/DVD-ROM SCSI CdRom Device (Virtual DVD-ROM)
Optical Drive LG CD-RW CED-8080B (8x/4x/32x CD-RW)
Partitions:
C: (NTFS) 9718 MB (1127 MB free)
D: (NTFS) 39205 MB (26911 MB free)
Input:
Keyboard Standard 101/102-Key or Microsoft Natural PS/2 Keyboard
Mouse Logitech-compatible Mouse PS/2
Game Controller Microsoft PC-joystick driver
Network:
Primary IP Address 192.168.1.100
Primary MAC Address 00-04-5A-8B-D5-2C
Network Adapter PCI 10/100 Fast Ethernet Adapter(9513) (192.168.1.100)
Peripherals:
Printer Auto HP DeskJet 895Cxi on JAPPLE
Printer HP DeskJet 930C/932C/935C
Printer Microsoft Office Document Image Writer
USB Device USB Human Interface Device
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we didn't need to know
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integrated graphics chipsets are a big no-no with any new game coming out these days. I'd also recommend adding another 128MB of RAM just to speed things up
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absolute minimum memory would be 128, recomended would be 1 gig
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SCP will also hopefully become more efficient and fix the memory leaks and speed things up so virtual memory wouldn't be needed. I'm getting VM usage using 512mb of RAM. Usually it is the builds that test new features that are slow.
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when you have 100 ships each one haveing an average of 2.5 materials, each of them haveing three textures averageig 768^2 with 32 bits per pixel, there is only so much memory you can clean up
textures alone is takeing up, 442 megabytes of ram
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maybe that is the problem then? The number of textures need to be reduced....my poor old 64Mb card wont stand up against the onslaught of features for very much longer :(
FS2 used to be a game for the poor......now its becoming one designed only for those with $$ :P
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When DDS is fully implemented we could possibly look at including the various effects textures into one or two files instead of five. That should be a major memory savings.
I know this is possible because they do it in HW2.
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You know, all those textures are floating around uncompressed right? Is there any way to use some sort of compression on them? Even a "light" compression would help a lot.
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that's less developer frendly though, this is a game used mostly be people who know how to mod the hell out of it.
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However, it's meant to be played, by as many ordinary people as possible. Currently it isn't too appealing due to the growing requirements and resource hogging. It's an area that always calls for improvements, everywhere (except at Redmond).
Btw, Bob, for the sake of our sanity, please try to conjugate "having", "taking" and others right! *bangs head on wall*
I haven't tried several of the latest builds, but the general feel I have is that 256 megs of RAM is the minimum (which is what I have, running Win2k, and GF2 with 32 megs). I wouldn't want to imagine running FS2_Open with half of that!
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@bobboau
I meant internally; it may take more time to load in the load screen, but in-game it may be a lot better (the little pauses when a new texture is loaded may be reduced and overal memory usage may be reduced).
I'd imagine using light DXTC compression (to avoid artifacts) would help if the game did it internally for formats that aren't already compressed.
Of course, this is based on a vague recollection of someone saying that DXTC compression isn't uncompressed into memory in-game while everything else is.
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I don't think we can compress other textures on the fly
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By "on-the-fly", do you mean "during-the-loading-screen"?
Darn. But now that I think about, it'd take far too long to load anyways :(
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Originally posted by Singh
maybe that is the problem then? The number of textures need to be reduced....my poor old 64Mb card wont stand up against the onslaught of features for very much longer :(
FS2 used to be a game for the poor......now its becoming one designed only for those with $$ :P
I can feel your pain, but all these new features do come with a price... I bought my GFX 5200 PCI just to play Halo PC...
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i have a Radeon 7k and can run the SCP at a framereate of about 30-40 wiht everything except pcx32 enabled. spec mapping doesn't work on my card, so that might be it.
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Originally posted by kasperl
i have a Radeon 7k and can run the SCP at a framereate of about 30-40 wiht everything except pcx32 enabled. spec mapping doesn't work on my card, so that might be it.
try living with 3-4 FPS when all the eyecandy is on....and then having it go to 1 FPM (Frame per MINUTE) when something loads on. SCP should be playable as well as look good - right now its sacrificed too much of the former for the latter. I'm not asking for much - just let us play a bit!
Perhaps adding a mode called 'original' will allow us to have most of the Vanilla fs2 graphical stuff in, but retaining the ability to play FS_open missions and stuff?
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by turning of -spec -glow -jpgtga -pcx32 and all in the launcher?
just keep HT&L on, but about everything else of, and you'll be fine.
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Well, you can make it loads more efficient.
Last time I tried it with -stats, about 170 MB of memory were being wasted. poof, away, useless.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
Last time I tried it with -stats, about 170 MB of memory were being wasted.
I intend to fix that :)
I also intend to try and get fs2_open to run as fast as it did in retail FS2 with default data and visual features turned off.
However if you are expecting to run fs2_open with visual features on or with new data that has bigger memory requirements but you are using an old system thats just not realistic.
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I know, I just wanted to show that indeed a lot memory optimisations can be made, even more so with dynamic data arrays.
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170 MB is a big wastage amount though, the most I've ever racked up was about 50. Could you give me details of the options and data you were using?
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Yeah, when I've used Lightspeed's VPs in the past my wastage has easily gotten that high, even if none of the new files are used in mission, and even if -glow and -spec aren't on.
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Ok, to summarise the minimum requirements I think we are looking at :-
Minimum P600 processor, recommend 1Ghz+ (Was 1Ghz min before edit)
Minimum : 128 ( Was 256 before edit) MBytes of Ram, Recommend at least 512MBytes
Minimum : HT&L Graphics card with 32 Meg, Recommend 64+Meg
Directsound compatible soundcard, recommend EAX.
56k Internet connection, recommend Broadband or better.
Does that sound about right?
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A 667MHz processor is sufficient. I was running a Celeron 667 for a while and FS2_open still runs fine (of course I had to turn off some eyecandy, but we're talking about minimum requirements here). At least specular works.
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Yes, I thought I might have erred on the high side for the processor, as long as the graphics card can take it, I don't actually think the Non-graphical part of FS2 is any more demanding on the processor, and a lot of the graphical strain is taken up by the card, thus freeing up the processor even more. I suppose that if there is a motherboard that supports a P200 and an AGP 8x you could effectively play FS2 Open on it ;)
I'll edit my post, but leave the old value as well so your reply makes sense.
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My current system:
Athlon 800 (200 bus)
A7V
256MB SDRAM-133
ASUS V7100 GF2MX 32MB AGP
Creative Labs SB-Live! Value
Samsung 17 inch 755DF
I currently use FSO in HTL with Glow, Spec, and jpgtga, although I've taken to only extracting some of the tga effects (not the nebulas) and I use Lighty's updated V2 planet pack though with the 3 larger planets relpaced by the DDS versions. I used to fly with all the bells and whisles on, but it would often slow my framerate to a chug, chug, chug 4 fps. The key seems to be in the shinemaps. Without shinemaps I can fly at a reasonable framerate (for me... usualy between 30 & 50 unless there's too much action). If anyone is gonna use the shinemaps and the environment map stuff (once it becomes an official feature), then the min. system requirements should be bumped up to the reccommended specs.
[rant]
I't be cool if we had a little piece of software for the eventual more large scale release of the SCP. During initial setup of say FSO-4.0 (by that point perhaps) and all the media for it, there would be a popup that says "for those who aren't good at computers, we reccommend running this little porgram that will examine the critical specs of your computer and reccommend what features you should or shouldn't install for the best gameplay vs. eye-candy ratio." OK, maybe by 3.8, but it would still go one step closer to user friendlyness than the Launcher currently is. Don't get me wrong, the Launcher is a great improvement over what we had before, and it is still WIP, so this is not meant as any kind of put-down, but there are features (particularily in the command line flags) that say "use this for better eye-candy" or "this will speed things up", but the launcher doesn't know if someone has a system like mine, or a Killer Gaming Rig. Something to fill this gap needs to be in place when the SCP makes its more public launch sometime in the future.
[/rant]
Later!
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are we talking DDR or SDRAM memory BTW ?
(I'm running 1gz of SDRAM)
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Possibly something could be done using the CAPS data that the launcher captures, but I am certain the Launcher will grow with the SCP itself, just bear in mind that I'm sure RT doesn't want to be spending all his time on the launcher with all the fun they plan to have with the main game ;)
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minimum RAM: 128 MB
If you turn off some extra stuff it *will* work properly.
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Edited, though I don't think I'd want to play FSO on the minimum system ;)
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Since we're talking about minimum requirements, it's FS2_open with HTL. (and no special effects).
In which case, it'll run faster than vanilla FS2 on the same system generally.
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Now it sounds about right, Flipside :)
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Ok, I'll look at putting that on the WIKI tomorrow if everyones happy with that (or at least everyone who reads this before tomorrow)
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I was just working on my model, and I was thinking about memory requirements.
Now, the texture for the ship is 1024x1024, which comes out to a 3,073KB tga.
Now, what is I were to make the glowmap and shine map both dds files, since they don't have to be as detailed as the texture map?
That could help alleviate memory.
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It will IF your card supports DDS textures without having to decompress them, otherwise it will not make a difference unless you use, for example, 512 x 512 maps for the shine and glow :)
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Ya, that's what i was thinking, using smaller 512x512 .dds textures for the glow and shine maps.
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Most cards support DDS and in D3D if they dont they will uncompress so it will still work.
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uncompressed, a 1024^2 32 bit texture will take up 4,194,304
bytes of memory, bout 4 megabytes, regardless of what file type you use (excludeing the compressed texture formats obviusly)
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How do I know if my Vid card supports DDS (without uncompressing)? I have a GeForce4 TI4200
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probly suports it, it's been around long enough
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Of course it does, even my GF2 supports it! People with GF4 cards complaining or being hesitant about their performance... sheesh. Understandable if you aren't into technology, but there are those who aren't happy with anything as well.
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I play FSO with a Duron 600, 128 Mb Ram, and a 32 Mb GeForce2Mx PCI.
I think I qualify for the minimum requirements. :D
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Originally posted by Sticks
Yeah, when I've used Lightspeed's VPs in the past my wastage has easily gotten that high, even if none of the new files are used in mission, and even if -glow and -spec aren't on.
I know freespace *loads* all the planets when it starts, perhaps it locks them as well?
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Oh and I hope you guys arent adding "Wasted memory" and "D3D Texture mem" together to get those totals because only the fist is wasted memory.
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
Oh and I hope you guys arent adding "Wasted memory" and "D3D Texture mem" together to get those totals because only the fist is wasted memory.
We aren't.
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
I know freespace *loads* all the planets when it starts, perhaps it locks them as well?
I'm fairly sure it does. I remember back in the Golden days when I was doing a lot of skinning and table modding, I tried editing stuff while the game was running, with disastrous effects. The game locking all its data files at runtime would explain that.
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If so thats something we can fix. I've also just done some coding that shaves 20 meg on standard missions.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
We aren't.
I believe I have now squashed that wastage from PCX files.
The ani waste will still be happening but sorting the ani stuff isnt trivial so I'll leave that till after 3.6.
I'll probably be sending out a build to the tester list soon.
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compile it with working multiplay, if possible :)
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
compile it with working multiplay, if possible :)
Not sure how.
Might be in there by default.
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how bout asking kazan? :rolleyes:
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Too late, I've made it now.
If you have a good system its likely you wont notice the difference anyway.
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:confused:
The difference in what? It either works, or not... no? Or are you referring to the difference in this build and last build?
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He's talking about the squashing of meg hogs.
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Oh.. well, then let him post it! I have the weakest setup her. Let me see how well it runs. ;)
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Absolute minimum requirement: HTL graphic card
Without it you cannot use HTL (whatever you say, either D3D and OGL are ****ed up with my TNT2) and without HTL you need a P4 to hope to run things in a decent way (P3 1GHZ 512mb RAM and i can barely play, when there are 5+ ships on screen i get less than 10fps)
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Originally posted by Zarax
whatever you say, either D3D and OGL are ****ed up with my TNT2
Have you put full details of your problems in mantis?
I was playing it on a TNT2 a week weeks agao and it messed up bad. It was fairly slow then everything disappeared, then it crashed.
I'll see if I can get some dev time on a TNT2 at some point.
That isnt likely to happen any time soon.
Send me an e-mail and I could send you some tests to run.
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Frankly, it's time to bump the specs up to at least Geforce class video cards anyways.
BTW the Radeon 7000 doesn't support HTL. The Radeon 7200s and higher do.
But if it can be made to run on a TNT2, there's not harm there...
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it requiers a DX7 capable video card, strongly recomends a HTL capable and DX9 card
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i currently have a R7k, everything but spec runs fine..
my dad confiscated my old TNT2 (AGP), to throw in my brothers PC, but due to my dad buying a new comp, and computers swapping all over the house, that thing might not be used.
anyhow, the game didn't work so well on my TNT2, but it did, kind off, work, untill you looked at anything big.
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
Have you put full details of your problems in mantis?
I was playing it on a TNT2 a week weeks agao and it messed up bad. It was fairly slow then everything disappeared, then it crashed.
I'll see if I can get some dev time on a TNT2 at some point.
That isnt likely to happen any time soon.
Send me an e-mail and I could send you some tests to run.
I reported the problem in Mantis quite a bit of time ago...
D3D is fairly stable in showing the problem, while OGL has gotten worse with the more recent builds...
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Originally posted by Zarax
I reported the problem in Mantis quite a bit of time ago...
And because you did your problems are in mind and I've made the effort to replicate them on a TNT2 and see the problem for myself.
D3D is fairly stable in showing the problem, while OGL has gotten worse with the more recent builds...
Send me an e-mail and I'll give you some tests to run.
I know we can get fs2_open working nicely on a TNT2, its just a matter of how much effort it takes and how much help people are willing to give.
Fixing problems that dont occur on your system are very difficult and not terribly rewarding since 90% of the community has DX8 or better cards.
One thing that would really help would be if I added code to turn all textures as they loaded (which would slow down loading) into dxt compressed images.
Do you know what level of support your TNT2 has for DXT / DDS?
I can put together an exe to tell you if needed.
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Thanks RT, i just received the latests test build and i'm going to check it out...
About DXT the launcher tells me it's not supported at any level, but the DDS test you did some times ago worked without problems for me (software conversion on the fly by DX?)
[OT]Meanwhile, i would like to try fiddling with the code myself, since i got Visual Studio... can someone give me the link to CVS?[/OT]
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Originally posted by Zarax
Thanks RT, i just received the latests test build and i'm going to check it out...
I doupt it will make much difference performance wise unless you were on the edge.
About DXT the launcher tells me it's not supported at any level,
Crap, thats a real shame.
The cards that need it the most dont have it.
but the DDS test you did some times ago worked without problems for me (software conversion on the fly by DX?)
Yep
Meanwhile, i would like to try fiddling with the code myself, since i got Visual Studio... can someone give me the link to CVS?
If you have VS, then theres no end of tests and stuff you can run to help solve this!
Getting fs2_open running in VS:
You will need to download the DX8 SDK and setup the dirs.
Tools:Options:Dirs, add DX8 include and lib paths:
C:\DXSDK\include
C:\DXSDK\Lib
To get a copy of the code
cvs -d :pserver:[email protected]:/home/fs2source/cvsroot login
password: anoymous
cvs -d :pserver:[email protected]:/home/fs2source/cvsroot checkout fs2_open
Give me a shout if you need anything explained or have any problems.
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Can i use the DX9 SDK instead of the 8?
I'm working with DirectShow stuff and i don't want to mess with it...
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Not sure, dont think so, not without fiddling with stuff.
Last time I tryed I think there were missing DX8 files it needed.
If it doesnt work just install DX8 under a different dir name (DXSDK8), your OS will relise that DX8 is older and it shouldnt stuff anything up.
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Ok, i will get DX8SDK and try getting into the code.
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Try DX9 first if you like.
I suspect it wont work.
I could be wrong.
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What level of coding ability do you have?
What do you want to look at when you are in there?
I might be able to give you a few directions.
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I know C and Java at a fair level, so with a C++ book i shouldn't find too much trouble...
Well, about what i would like to look at it's AI and FRED campaign management, even though they are well known to be a coding nightmare :)...
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Most of it is actually just C.
AI and FRED campaign management...... coding nightmare.
Would you be willing to try some stuff out for me using VS debugging?
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Ok, just give me the time to download code and SDK...
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OK
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
I doupt it will make much difference performance wise unless you were on the edge.
Crap, thats a real shame.
The cards that need it the most dont have it.
Yep
If you have VS, then theres no end of tests and stuff you can run to help solve this!
Getting fs2_open running in VS:
You will need to download the DX8 SDK and setup the dirs.
Tools:Options:Dirs, add DX8 include and lib paths:
C:\DXSDK\include
C:\DXSDK\Lib
To get a copy of the code
cvs -d :pserver:[email protected]:/home/fs2source/cvsroot login
password: anoymous
cvs -d :pserver:[email protected]:/home/fs2source/cvsroot checkout fs2_open
Give me a shout if you need anything explained or have any problems.
Can you give me a direct link to CVS?
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http://www.cvshome.org/
I've had problems with some of the newer versions.
I could upload my version if you dont have any luck.
Most people seem to use wincvs, apparently its a lot easier.
http://www.cvshome.org/
I wont be able to help much with wincvs, I've never used it.
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Ok, it seems i need your version :)
BTW, i testing the latest test version, and with D3D it keeps showing the problem...
I suspect it's somehow a buffering problem...
I mean, the crash always happens when there is an explosion, but the weird thing is that it happens regardless of the fact the player has the explosion on screen or not...
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Originally posted by Zarax
I mean, the crash always happens when there is an explosion, but the weird thing is that it happens regardless of the fact the player has the explosion on screen or not...
Thats just the kind of thing that a debug runthrough in VS will help out with.
You need to set environment variables homedrive and homepath I think. Read cvs docs for setup info.
http://www.randomtiger.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/freespace/cvs.rar
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RT, are you sure that the command line text you gave me is correct?
I'm also available via msn messenger at [email protected] if you want
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anoymous, anonymous
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Is it ok to use the 8.1b SDK?
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fyi, I use the DX9 sdk, and I've not run into any problems.
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the current code is designed to use 8.1b I beleve, anything later than that should also work