Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: redsniper on March 26, 2004, 03:56:46 pm
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I must know. Is it safe to do to a new SATA hard drive?
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Don't Low Level Format unless you've got a damned good reason to.
Low level formatting lays out the tracks and sectors on the drive. There's no reason for you to do this unless you've horked it hardcore.
You want to do a REGULAR format.
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In other words, do a format using the FORMAT command.
Don't do anything else that feels complicated or is called low-level formatting in any way.
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Welcome to one of the scariest moments of your life ;) hehehehe
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I thought a low-level was when it just 'removed' all the file info. A normal was when it screwed all the data. And a thorough was when it went through and completely re-did the surface of the drive.
?
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Format erases all data ... lowlevel kills data clusters ETC and remakes em" - " ofcourse :p
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Quick format: just zero out the file allocation table
Full Format: Quick Format, plus some other stuff that I can't quite remember
Low Level Format: What the FACTORY does to set up your hard drive for you. Only applies to fixed disks (IE Hard drives). Usually done from within software supplied only on the boot disk that came with the hard drive or, in the case of a SCSI drive, a program contained within the SCSI BIOS. This type of format will take you, at a minimum, several hours, usually more like ten to twelve hours for larger drives, and is absolutely the wrong thing to use 999999 out of 1000000 times you need to do a format of any sort.
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Hmmmm. Come to think of it I think it might be worth trying a low level format with that old laptop I have lying about (It doesn't work at the moment and I think the hard drive is royally screwed so it won't hurt to try :) )
If I don't have the disk that came with the laptop where could I get software to do it from?
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well, it's a good thing I didn't low level format it then...
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Whats this pussy sh**... A low level format is just wiping your hard drive clean.. and when I mean clean I mean it! No Windows, no DOS, not even a piece of the recycle bin left on. It does not or should not damage your hard drive.
When I first put my computer together several weeks back, I had problems setting up software and partitions, just the general setup of things and how conflicts arise and the rest of that sort of stuff I had to figure out. Through this process of mine I done this low-level format about 6 times if not more until I got the damn thing setup right :D. The format took me less than an hour for my Samsung 80GB SATA 150 hard drive. If I think about it this format is the most simple one I've done in my life. It asked me roughly 2-3 times if I was sure to format and warned me just about as much what happens: 'you will lose all data on this hard disk' blah.. :blah: So I don't think its something to be worried about
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That wasn't a low-level format then.
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Samsung (http://www.samsung.com/Products/HardDiskDrive/technicalinfo/tech_l.htm)
This is a low-level format: The process of creating sectors on the media so that a drive can store information.
and thats what I done!
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Hmm... Something seems wrong here. Either the program lied, or something rather interesting is going on inside your drive.
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Do children these days even go to school anymore? Jesus. Don't argue with people who were working with hard drives before you were born. Xelion:
Low-Level Formatting
Low-level formatting is the process of outlining the positions of the tracks and sectors on the hard disk, and writing the control structures that define where the tracks and sectors are. This is often called a "true" formatting operation, because it really creates the physical format that defines where the data is stored on the disk. The first time that a low-level format ("LLF") is performed on a hard disk, the disk's platters start out empty. That's the last time the platters will be empty for the life of the drive. If an LLF is done on a disk with data on it already, the data is permanently erased (save heroic data recovery measures which are sometimes possible).
If you've explored other areas of this material describing hard disks, you have learned that modern hard disks are much more precisely designed and built, and much more complicated than older disks. Older disks had the same number of sectors per track, and did not use dedicated controllers. It was necessary for the external controller to do the low-level format, and quite easy to describe the geometry of the drive to the controller so it could do the LLF. Newer disks use many complex internal structures, including zoned bit recording to put more sectors on the outer tracks than the inner ones, and embedded servo data to control the head actuator. They also transparently map out bad sectors. Due to this complexity, all modern hard disks are low-level formatted at the factory for the life of the drive. There's no way for the PC to do an LLF on a modern IDE/ATA or SCSI hard disk, and there's no reason to try to do so.
Older drives needed to be re-low-level-formatted occasionally because of the thermal expansion problems associated with using stepper motor actuators. Over time, the tracks on the platters would move relative to where the heads expected them to be, and errors would result. These could be corrected by doing a low-level format, rewriting the tracks in the new positions that the stepper motor moved the heads to. This is totally unnecessary with modern voice-coil-actuated hard disks.
Warning: You should never attempt to do a low-level format on an IDE/ATA or SCSI hard disk. Do not try to use BIOS-based low-level formatting tools on these newer drives. A modern disk can usually be restored to "like-new" condition by using a zero-fill utility.
Low Level Formatting is NOT just 'erasing' the data, you schmuck.
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I wish I had a digital camera to prove what I just said, because in the SATA RAID utility it says "Low Level Format" :p if I could take a screenshot I would. And this utility is outside of Windows XP! mikhael I know most of what you said is true already and all I said was that it does wipe all data on the HDD, there wasn't a need for saying anything else. :)
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Yep. There's a "Low Level Format" option in the SCSI bios on my wife's computer and in the SATA utility for my motherboard. That doesn't invalidate anything though.
"rm -rf /" or "del /y /s c:\" will wipe all the data on your hard drive too, but neither of those things is a "Format". Using a bulk tape eraser will wipe all the data on your drive, but again, that's not a 'format'. There's a difference between 'low level' formats, 'quick' formats, 'high level' formats, and just erasing the drive. Ignorant people seem to think that a plain formatting of your drive is a 'low level' format, and that is exactly WRONG, as in NOT RIGHT, not even SORTA RIGHT. ITs dead, 100% wrong.
So yeah, there WAS a need to say something else, because stupidity needs to be corrected.
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As I'm not 100% with all this, whats the best way to format a hard drive including windows? (Thats not quick)
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Right click on the drive in question and select 'format'.
If you prefer, on Win2k or XP, go to the drive manager and right click on the volume and select 'format'.
In either case, there will be a checkbox for a quick format. Make sure its cleared and click OK.
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What exactly would that do mikhael?
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Originally posted by mikhael
Right click on the drive in question and select 'format'.
Thats what I done after installing Windows XP Professional for each partition
So your saying you can format windows within windows?
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nope.
in that case, boot from a DOS disk, and type format C if it's a FAT drive. Otherwise, you'll need a different OS bootdisk, for windows: XP, NT or 2k. *nix probably could do it as well, but i am not sure about NTFS support of some *nix systems, and i know nothing about most of them.
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I'm familar with Windows 98 having a Dos but I thought Windows XP doesn't??
On another note I built my computer from scratch so there is not a boot disk or cd, it has only one Hard Drive, and its a SATA. This complicates matters because current boards don't support plug'n play with SATA drives. This means that drivers are required for installation before being able to install Windows XP. I think this makes the format options available different to IDE drives.
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That doesn't mean plug'n'play doesn't work with them, simply that the drivers for the SATA controller aren't included on the WinXP CD.
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During the WinXP setup, it gives you the opportunity to load drivers for RAID, SCSI, and other drive controllers. You need to give it the floppy (or CD) with the driver at that point.
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The format took me less than an hour for my Samsung 80GB SATA 150 hard drive. If I think about it this format is the most simple one I've done in my life. It asked me roughly 2-3 times if I was sure to format and warned me just about as much what happens: 'you will lose all data on this hard disk' blah.. So I don't think its something to be worried about
low leveling usually takes hours and hours. days sometimes.
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Originally posted by Stealth
low leveling usually takes hours and hours. days sometimes.
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I did say earlier...
Originally posted by Xelion
The format took me less than an hour for my Samsung 80GB SATA 150 hard drive. AND because in the SATA RAID utility it says "Low Level Format"
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and things do progress...
Originally posted by SadisticSid
That doesn't mean plug'n'play doesn't work with them, simply that the drivers for the SATA controller aren't included on the WinXP CD.
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I meant hot plug support :D Sorry
A7N8X-E Deluxe User Guide Book
Important notes on Serial ATA solution:
- Hot plug support for Serial ATA drive and connections are not available in this motherboard
- Install Windows XP Service Pack 1 when using Serial ATA
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Originally posted by mikhael
During the WinXP setup, it gives you the opportunity to load drivers for RAID, SCSI, and other drive controllers. You need to give it the floppy (or CD) with the driver at that point.
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Thats what Asus told me as well :nod:
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Originally posted by Xelion
and things do progress...
Yeah, but they don't progress to the point where something that takes a dead minimum of SEVERAL HOURS, POSSIBLY DAYS takes less than SEVERAL HOURS, POSSIBLY DAYS.
See, its a "DEAD MINIMUM" for a reason. If you're doing a low level format in a few minutes, or even less than an hour, your drive isn't doing a low level format. Period.
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Originally posted by mikhael
Yeah, but they don't progress to the point where something that takes a dead minimum of SEVERAL HOURS, POSSIBLY DAYS takes less than SEVERAL HOURS, POSSIBLY DAYS.
See, its a "DEAD MINIMUM" for a reason. If you're doing a low level format in a few minutes, or even less than an hour, your drive isn't doing a low level format. Period.
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Have you considered the fact that the 'Low-Level Format' for SATA drives may have been revised somewhat or perhaps the fact that a SATA 150 would be FASTER to a ATA66 or even ATA100. Remembering that IDE cables work differently to SATA cables. If you know the difference between those two technologies you would be surprised :nod:.
All I'm saying is what the hardware is saying, it says a 'Low-Level Format' so I believe that and it takes under an hour. So I've contacted one of my friends I used to go to college with, he currently works at Samsung in Sydney, so I'll await his response. :p
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Yes, I've considered that. If you know how a hard drive works, you'd know that the limiting factor is NOT the interface. The limitation is in how fast you can give order to a bunch of iron oxide particulates on the substrate.
Low level formatting does not involve slinging around data: its a single bitcode passed to the integrated electronics telling THEM to do the format.
If you're getting a low-level format done in under an hour, you are getting a no-op or the LLF programming is hamstrung in some way:
Modern hard drives are low-level formatted at the factory for the life of the drive. A PC can not perform an LLF on a modern IDE/ATA or SCSI hard disk, and doing so would destroy the hard disk. Older MFM drives could be low-level formatted to extend the life of the disk, but modern hard drives no longer use MFM technology.
Or perhaps this will explain things a bit better for you:
Low-level formatting an older hard disk could be a rather complicated procedure, particularly for one who was not very familiar with PCs and hard disks. Various factors needed to be taken into account, such as defect mapping and setting the interleave factor. The particular conditions of the drive when formatting were also important: due to the vagaries of stepper-motor actuators, doing an LLF when the drive was very cold or very hot could lead to errors when the drive returned to a more normal temperature. Even the orientation of the drive when it was formatted was an issue.
As I have said (probably too often, sorry) modern drives do not need to be low-level formatted by the end user, and in fact cannot be LLFed outside the factory due to their precision and complexity. However, it seems that the need to LLF hard disks on the part of users has never gone away. Like some primordial instinct, many PC users seem to have a fundamental desire to LLF their modern disks. Maybe it is built into the genetic code in some way yet undiscovered. ;) In fact, even if it were possible, the vast majority of the time that someone "needs" to LLF a hard disk today, it is not really necessary. Many users jump quickly to wanting to try an "LLF" whenever they have a problem with their hard disk, much the way many jump to re-installing their operating system whenever it gives them trouble.
Hard drive manufacturers have created for modern drives replacements for the old LLF utilities. They cause some confusion, because they are often still called "low-level format" utilities. The name is incorrect because, again, no utility that a user can run on a PC can LLF a modern drive. A more proper name for this sort of program is a zero-fill and diagnostic utility. This software does work on the drive at a low level, usually including the following functions (and perhaps others):
- Drive Recognition Test: Lets you test to see if the software can "see" the drive. This is the first step in ensuring that the drive is properly installed and connected.
- Display Drive Details: Tells you detailed information about the drive, such as its exact model number, firmware revision level, date of manufacture, etc.
- Test For Errors: Analyzes the entire surface of the hard disk, looking for problem areas (bad sectors) and instructing the integrated drive controller to remap them.
- Zero-Fill: Wipes off all data on the drive by filling every sector with zeroes. Normally a test for errors (as above) is done at the same time.
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Originally posted by mikhael
If you're doing a low level format in a few minutes, or even less than an hour, your drive isn't doing a low level format. Period.
yeah. particularly if you're doing a 150GB hard drive.
if it takes you anywhere less than 12 hours, you're not doing it right :p
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I could do an LLF at roughly 45-120 mins.
This was with an old dirve of 650-850 Mbyte capacity.
150 Gbyte - under an hour? NO F***N WAY. Period.
However it's good the issue came up since some of us lesser PC Gurus were given a good lecture about the state of hardware in hour technoshocking age.