Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: AlphaOne on March 30, 2004, 07:08:46 am
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Look i'm having trouble figuring out what the size of the GTVF(former GTVA) fleet size should be.
Heres what I think should be the size of the whole Federation FLEET:
-1 SCarier
-18 Fleet/escort carriers they are 4.5 km long
-6 SD (1 of federal design,1 of shivan terran design and 4 of shivan origin(captured ones)
-6 battleships (these are 5 km large behemonts armed to the teeth with huge and heavy beam cannon weaponry and only a squadron of interceptors)
-8 dreadnoughts(4 km large ships with masive amounts of armour and weaponry no fighterbay).
From here the numbers are ADDED GTVF+Sol ships:
-60 destroyers(GTVF destroyers as well as soll destroyers)
-55 friggates
-70 corvettes
-98 cruisers
+ some 10 advanced "Ascendent" class destroyers with an advanced A.I. matrix these things are 3.1 km long and have a crew of almost 5000+ 1000 soldiers on board.This class of warships are mostly automated that is why they require so few people on board.In fact these new capships could run all by themselfs but a skeletal crew was decided to be on board just in case.These warships benefit from a new adv.vasudan antimater reactors as well as new antimater beam weaponry etc.In fact everithing on these ships is new and of adv. versions to the normal equipment.
I must specify that the GTVF controles now all of the GTVA former space + 12 new sistems+ 1 nebula nad will get hold of even more as the Third shivan war starts.
6 of these sistems are highli rich in resources most of them not being sutable for habitation.
I would like to know if the figures are somewhat realistic keep in mind that they have 50+ years of improved technology and manufacturing capabilities you can imagine how many ship yards were built during this time etc.
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It would seem (more than) a bit high..... in FS2 there were only about 5-10 destroyers mentioned (I'd assume maybe 2 heading each of something like5-7 fleets), so 60 would seem excessive.
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Actually they are quite close to what I'd expect from someone paying attention to [V]. The NTF lose about 10 destroyers during the course of FS2 (not counting [V] multiplayer missions) from the 3 fleets involved in Bosch's rebellion. That averages out to about 3 per fleet.
We know that the Terrans had at least 12 fleets and that the vasudans had at least 13 because fleets with those numbers were mentioned. So at least for destroyers the numbers sound spot on.
Does make you wonder what all those ships were doing during FS2 doesn't it? :D
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Getting blown up :D
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Probably. The Saths smashed through blockades several times and we never heard any ship casualty figures. It's quite possible that the GTVA lost a whole bunch of destroyers that we didn't hear about. In fact it's probable.
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also, keep in mind that many destroyers would be assigned to other systems, or could be into maintenance.
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Meh. The Shivan's couldnt even blow up the Aquitane. Let alone get any further then the Capella in the storyline, we didn't really loose much in terms of ships. Think about it. The Colosus was destroyed because it had already gotten the **** beat out of it, as well as fighting a Demon, and THEN a Sathanis. The rest was evactuation, and no destroyers except the Meson-loaded ones were destroyed. So then, if you add it up, we lost maybe about 3 or 4 destroyers during their campaign against us. Maybe even less.
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:wtf:
I don't mean to offend you but... we're you drunk when flying "Into the Lion's Den"? Or when any ship engaged the Sathanas? Tell me, how many destroyers engaged the Aquitane?
Please go play the damn game again... :doubt:
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I will as soon as my computer is fixed. :p
But since you know better then why dont you tell me the instances that we lost a gajillion destroyers to the hands of the Shivans, eh?
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When the shivans decimated (wrong word) the forces guarding the Gamma Draconis jump node for one.
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I wasn't talking about ships "we" lost but instead this:
The Shivan's couldnt even blow up the Aquitane. Let alone get any further then the Capella in the storyline
But even so I will tell you some of the ships we lost.
Psantik, Colossus, the-capship-stupid-enough-to-put-itself-in-front-of-the-Sathanas-in-Bearbaiting, etc...
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That was 2, and the ship that was sent to "Hold the Node" was the Phonecia, and when I played (Every Time) it escaped. As for the ETC, that seems rather unclear to me... elaborate a tad more...
And yes, I finally remember the Psamtik. As for the rest, all I recall were corvettes and cruisers and so on.
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
the-capship-stupid-enough-to-put-itself-in-front-of-the-Sathanas-in-Bearbaiting
The Phoenicia...and there's a slight chance that it may not be destroyed in that mission...
[EDIT] Tin beat me to it, apparently... [/EDIT]
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There is a GOOD chance it survived. It always did, UNLESS, the Sathanis only powered up 3 cannons, shot, and then it powered up the fourth. But the rest of the times, it said
"This is Phonecia. 25% of our crew is down. Authorization or not, we're getting out of here command"
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:wtf:
The Phoenicia is supposed to die, it doesn't die because of a "bug". As for other ships you have the Bastion, the Nereid, and possible others you don't fly with (Alpha 1 doesn't have to know everything the fleet is going through, and doesn't see all the ships of the 3rd Fleet)... and for the last time I didn't even said that the terran lost a gajillion destroyers. What I was doing was telling you that you were understimating a lot the shivans. Over 80 Sathanas is more than enough to destroy 3 or 4 times as much Colossus and Terrans did lose many ships during the 2nd great war.
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And Tin Can gets the award for the DUMBEST argument ever made...according to him, the Shivans were super weak and could've EASILY gotten their ass whupped by the GTVA :rolleyes:
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If you're going to count GTVA destroyers you have to count all of the ones in briefings, as well as all of the NTF destroyers as well as they were commissioned GTVA but deserted. So that should bring the total up to near 30, plus the assumption (a safe one) that you really don't see much of what's going on in the grand scheme of things. You're attached to the Aquitane, so you're naturally going to spend more time in missions involving it. But if you want to go into naming, there is the Aquitane, Carthage, Psamtic, Memphis, Nereid, Bastion, Messana, Phoenicia, etc, plus the Repulse and all of the other Orions you destroy of the NTF; the destroyers in the cutscenes, the Vasudan destroyer that can be seen blowing up in the background of the end game cutscene, etc. There are lots more than 10 destroyers mentioned in the campaign, and many more implied. The 60 figure sounds fine. I do have a problem with a cruiser/corvette/frigate ratio to the destroyers though, you'd expect the fleet to have a good number of smaller support craft to the larger destroyers.
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I believe there's a thread back somewhere where I and a few others listed each and every one of the capital ships in FS2.
EDIT: Then again, there's probably a document floating around somewhere too...
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As I said the NTF alone lose 10 destroyers. That's from counting all the destroyers mentioned in the briefings as well as the ones killed in missions.
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How do we know the Terran & Vasudan fleet numbers are not inclusive? After all, it'd get confusing referring to the 1st Terran fleet and 1st Vasudan fleet during a battle, even if the commands weren't unified.
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Because IIRC there are references to a Terran 12th fleet and a Vasudan 12th Battlegroup. Could be wrong about that but I think it's mentioned in the briefings.
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I would be guessing that the term "Fleet" refers to a combined Terran-Vasudan group, while "Battlegroup" refers to a small division of the Fleet assigned to a specific task. For example, the 13th Vasudan Battle Group may have been part of the 3rd Fleet, and the Aquitaine was being sent to the Battle Group to reinforce the initial wave.
And I would guess now all Fleets are referred to without "Terran" or "Vasudan" in front of the others (3rd Fleet, 4th Fleet), and the names are reserved for the battlegroups (13th Vasudan, 21st Terran).
And here's the listing for all capital ships killed in FS2 (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,11230.0.html) (check my post).
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
And Tin Can gets the award for the DUMBEST argument ever made...according to him, the Shivans were super weak and could've EASILY gotten their ass whupped by the GTVA :rolleyes:
I'd expect something idiotic and childish like that to be said from someone like you.
I didn't say they were super-weak, I just said they didn't get very far. Major Shivan battles/offensives took place in the Nebula, Gamma Drax, and Capella. Thats as far as they got. Also, if you read the Shivan Manifesto, then you would learn a lot from what he has to say about the last levels few levels of Freespace 2.
IIRC, the Carthage was not destroyed (hence, the battle in which our first view of the Astaroth is presented, and they compliment you on your gallient defence) Secondly, I didn't say "NTF Destroyers Killed by GTVA". You guys put too many words in my mouth on too many occasions. I said GTVA Destroyers lost to the hands of the Shivans who only made it to Capella. :lol:
Now, learn to read what I have to say and validly translate it.
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The Phoenicia died.
The two Meson Destroyers died.
The Colossus died.
All the ships within the blockades died. (presumeably. It's also presumeable that at least a few destroyers would have been here)
As for per fleet counts, 30 - 60 seems reasonable to me.
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Some ships may have been cleaning up remaining NTF rebel activity and policing systems for pirate activity. Others may have developed simple malfunctions. Others may have been in drydock, or were on leave when fighting started. The last is most unlikely, though.
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The Phonecia shouldn't be considered an option because it can die, and it also can live. So, using it as an example would just put up more controversy. As for the two Meson Destroyers, they were intentionally destroyed by the Alliance. They were "stripped down" and "were not much use to the Alliance". So, they sent them off as the first candidates for Subspace Explosion. As for the rest, I know the Collosus died because that was tragic. As for the Psamtik, that is about the only other destroyer I saw destroyed BY Shivan forces in action. If there were other occurances, I dont recall... I think I'll have to take a list of all the destroyers I saw taken out of action when I reinstall FS2 when my computer is, as I said, fixed...
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I think the Phoenicia option is still perfectly valid, because even if it lives you are still looking at a minimum of 7500 crew dead and a Destroyer effectively taken out of action for the remainder of the conflict. We don't even know if the Phonecia (if it lived) could have limped back through Capella to secure space before the shivans nuked the place. Also, there is the destroyer lost fighting the Ravana (it is mentioned in a briefing I believe) and you must also take into account the fact that the Shivans were not interested in taking out our ships after a point. Remember, just because you didn't see the mission doesn't mean it didn't happen in the story arc, and for the most part fighters would only be scrambled from another destroyer if the one they were going to assist a) had no fighter compliment (the Bastion), b) no ability to launch fighters (Colossus), or c) no time to adequately prepare a defense (King's Gambit and Bearbaiting). As all destroyers should have their own fighter screens, getting scrambled to assist a destroyer that isn't also your base is only going to happen so often. To argue that the Shivans either didn't try to destroy GTVA capitals has no evidenciary basis whatsoever.
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I said I would go through it again didn't I? :D
But the Phonecia I think CAN survive. It was a while until we got to the start of that 72 hour countdown. That means that at least a few days passed after that incident, because then we had the Psamtik destroyed, the SOC reconnisanse, and several other missions before finally they said "80+ shivan juggernaughts have gathered around the capella star". So, I say, we dismiss the Phonecia.
But like I said, I'll re-play the entire campaign for the 3rd time and write down my findings just for you, ok?
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also: "lost" can be interpretated in different ways:
if you see it as "destroyed", the number is not as high as: "beaten up enough to be useless in the remainder of the conflict"
which is most likely the way how the phoenicia went:
it survived on my game, just jumped out with a BFred on "following it" when it entered subspace.
it's crippled, and would most likely:
A- made it home, and subsequently got scrapped or repaired, depending on the damage
B- be evacuated
C- Be destroyed anyway, sicne when it jump out of subspace, Alpha 1 is no longer around.
I say we use the: "taken out for the rest of the conflict" interpretation.
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Originally posted by nuclear1
I would be guessing that the term "Fleet" refers to a combined Terran-Vasudan group, while "Battlegroup" refers to a small division of the Fleet assigned to a specific task. For example, the 13th Vasudan Battle Group may have been part of the 3rd Fleet, and the Aquitaine was being sent to the Battle Group to reinforce the initial wave.
And I would guess now all Fleets are referred to without "Terran" or "Vasudan" in front of the others (3rd Fleet, 4th Fleet), and the names are reserved for the battlegroups (13th Vasudan, 21st Terran).
And here's the listing for all capital ships killed in FS2 (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,11230.0.html) (check my post).
I agree with this..... it's not 100% relevant, but I checked the dictionary meaning;
battle group
n.
- A U.S. army unit usually composed of five companies.
- A naval force composed of a variable number of warships, escorts, and supply vessels, depending on the nature of the mission.
- An improvised force, usually of battalion or brigade strength, drawn from different units for a particular operation.
- Chiefly British. A tactical force of battalion strength formed by attaching infantry and armored companies.
fleet
n.
- A number of warships operating together under one command.
- A group of vessels or vehicles, such as taxicabs or fishing boats, owned or operated as a unit.
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According to some FSURP research i made there were 26 fleets in GTVA, 13 for each race.
What you are not taking into account, is that NTF destroyers most likely does not add up to that number, but subtracts.
Also, you do not have to count the fleets when talking about NTF, because it's more likely that single ships defected instead of whole fleets.
That would also explain some things like NTF fleet composition...
So, taken into account 26 (let's say 30 for reserve purposes) fleets, each with one destroyer per fleet you have (numbers may vary) 30 - 10 = 20 GTVA destroyers at game start, 10 NTF ones plus the Colossus.
So, subtract GTVA vs NTF lost destroyers and you will obtain some figure that explains why the Shivans made so much damage even though not many destroyers were lost against them...
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Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.
I'd expect something idiotic and childish like that to be said from someone like you.
Someone like me, huh? At least I'm not some prick who comes into a community, rants and raves, and expects everyone to simply fall over his so-called intelligence. Shall we go back to our last thread, oh so young Tin Can? Apparantly we should, because, even though you may be 14, you're intelligence level suggests a two-month old cow, who can't seem to figure out that walking into the electric fence will always hurt it.
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Calm down... both of you.
Tin Can, you did understimate the Shivans in one of your previous posts. By saying that the Shivans barely got to Capella you're only showing you didn't pay attention to the storyline.
About the modified destroyer that carried the meson bombs, they were destroyers in either cases. An Orion is still a very valuable asset to the GTVA and takes a sizable portion of the existing fleet. They were meant to be "sacrifices" to save the GTVA!
Like Stratcomm said, Alpha 1 is not omnicient therefore, just because you don't see it ingame doesn't mean it didn't happen.
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You cant substitute FOR the destroyer, because it stated that it required an "explosion of sizeable force" in order to demolish a node. Though yes, they could have been of use, they still stated they were scrapped down destroyers, whos parts were used in the creation of other ships. Although, I do feel sad that they destroyed my legacy from FS1 and used my home base in order to blow a node. Sad, sad, sad...
As for you, UT, you claim supperiority over everyone by critisizing the supposed newbie of the board in order to make yourself look more mature, and frankly no one is impressed. I didn't demand everyone "obey my will and my intelligence!". I just put up what I thought was right and then accepted answers that could be given by more considerate and mature people who would rather discuss instead of jump in and say "OMG YOUR STUPID!".
If anyone needs to be growing up, its you UT. I dont care if you get kicks off insulting everyone on internet forums, I just dont have time for your ****.
As for the storyline, I did read it. Can anyone list the Shivan's getting THROUGH our jump nodes, past Capella and into other systems? They got into Capella where we destroyed their first Sathanis, and then she just pushed through with 80 more as well as a good portion of their fleet. However they did not invade any more territory then that, and, when reading the Shivan Manifesto, I found out why.
As for the statistical count, again, I didn't ask for destroyers, sacraficed even, to be used in the count. Just destroyed by Shivans. Destroyed.
SIDE NOTE: Im not 14 anymore UT. Goes to show how little you pay attention and how much MORE you run your mouth.
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Very well then, I told you 3 and I believe there art more they destroyed either Alpha 1 wast watching or not, that I cannot sayeth as I haven't played the campaign in a loooooong time, I'm sure people here haveth or wilt point you to more destroyers, but be warned that the 3rd fleet dost haveth a limit on the number of it's destroyers.
The Shivans could haveth invaded the rest of allied space with ease, as to why they didn't do it, no one can be sure, only the writter of the plot. And even he may not haveth thought of it and just decided t'was more "epic" or "cool" to haveth them gather their "main fleet" (or is it? :drevil: :devil: ) around Capella and supernovae it.
SIDE NOTE: You're not 14, you were a few weeks ago, congratulations on the aniversary and please try to restrain thy attitude towards other people, if they insult you either try to calm them down, or ignore them completely. A few insults art normal now and then, but try not to make it too frequent. This goes for all of us.
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Rebuttal originating from the wisdom of Ghostavo
The Shivans could haveth invaded the rest of allied space with ease, as to why they didn't do it, no one can be sure, only the writter of the plot. And even he may not haveth thought of it and just decided t'was more "epic" or "cool" to haveth them gather their "main fleet" (or is it? :evil: ) around Capella and supernovae it.
i agree with you there ghostavo. the only person who can be sure of what's happening else where is the writers of the plot. and at his/her whim could have sent a nearly endless wave of shivan juggernauts to greet the GTVA at their home systems sun.
regarding the Pheonica, it could be a bug that lets it live/ it could be skill, even if one BFred hits her she's still going to be out of the fight. she could be dead from the supernova or trapped in Gamma Draconis. No one will ever know what happens to her only the writer's will. so you should all relax and eat somethin.
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Rebuttal originating from the wisdom of .::Tin Can::.
SIDE NOTE: Im not 14 anymore UT. Goes to show how little you pay attention and how much MORE you runnethyour mouth.
Congrats, does thou dost get thy first pubes as of the current time? :p
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Im just going to ignore your childish comments herin, UT. So, keep them to yourself and thats one less problem we have to worry about. But to answer your question: no...
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Ah, then thou dost have the squeaky voice of d00m?
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Guess that means he is still bald. :lol:
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Thou dost talk in crude terms, dear Knight. :D
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That number isn't BAD (I like the rare ship classes. ^ ^), I think it's a bit too high. Cut it in half for the bigger ships. Alpha 1 needs to feel important. If you have 90 destroyers and one blows up, you have 89 more. So that's a bit too much. However, if you say they HAD 90 and got their asses kicked down to about thirty, it'd be great.
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No UT, it came BEFORE 14, not after. :lol:
I don't think the Shivans killed 2/3 of the fleet within 3 systems in a matter of 20 sorties. It would sort of make the player feel kind of worthless seeing as how theres nothing he can really do...
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Rebuttal originating from the [l]wisdom[/l] moronism of .::Tin Can::.
No UT, it came BEFORE 14, not after. :lol:
I don't think the Shivans killed 2/3 of the fleet within 3 systems in a matter of 20 sorties. It would sort of make the player feel kind of worthless seeing as how theres nought he can really do...
There also happened to be a lot happening between those sorties, such as the Sathanas decimating the Capella blockade, which more than likely consisted of a few corvettes and cruisers, and maybe a destroyer. Then there's the end cutscene, another example, where half of the GTVA Capella Fleet goes down not only from the supernova, but from the Shivans as well (hint: look at the Hatshepsut biting the big one in the background).
And another thing: wise up, buddy. One thing you do not do is walk in after maybe a few months on the boards and flame/bash the older members. It's heavily frowned upon (unless, of course, it's against Stryke, an0n, or ZB) and doesn't earn you a lot of friends in the community (again, unless any of the above is involved, in which case you get sarcasm and insults heaped upon you). UT has made more contributions than you ever have, so shut up.
And UT's reply wasn't "childish". You are childish. You fit under the definition of n00b: a forum member who never grows out of flaming and bashing other members.
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What the hecketh hath hapeneth to the forum that hath causeth sucheth stupideth speaketh aboundeth?
Nevermind, April 1st (except it didn't dawn on me since it's not that time yet)
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Quiteth Stableboy :D
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I love our new designations.
Alright then nuclear, I can always understand the rage of someone defending an idiot when I see it, and in this case, I see it. You can view all the previous posts, and see that since UT can't keep his god damned trap shut and do something besides ***** at everyone else to make himself look better. I get tired of it. This is the only board where someone is stupid enough to go after someone for something as stupid as presenting his idea, and no one likes it. I talked to UT and he said he just likes to piss people off to see what they do. Does this mean I have to fit in an extra hour on my time in order to listen to his stupid-ass insults every time a subject comes up? Hell no. If I were the MODs, I'd do my job as they do on every other forum, and anything that looks stupid, insultive or vulgar just gets deleted. Anyone who continuously barrages someone with insults non-stop and refuses to quit gets suspended. Everyone else has 0 tollerance, and so do I. People say they are mature, then act that way. Goober said he doesnt even know why they act as they do online. It seems the older you get the stupider.
I'm willing to make peace with UT just so long as he can stop observing everything I say, rip it to shreds, make me look like some idiot who hates everyone, and then gloat over the fact that he did something right. It's utter bull**** and everyone knows it. Instead, they would rather hide behind the fact that he is a "Veteran, and your just a foolish and stupid n00b". Where did all the respect go nowadays? Where did people stop to talk something over instead of bluntly putting bull**** into their posts? I only get pissed when idiots like him piss me off, and I'll only post messages as long as this when someone makes me mad enough to do so. I couldn't give a flying **** if he was the president. If he acts like an ass hole then I'm going to treat him as such in return.
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Tin Can he is only human.
Now, what if you chose to be different and IGNORE him and not make yourself look like and ASS.
Of course, I don't see where excactly he made you so mad.
How many times are you going to piss people off until you learn to just drop it and actually stop to think about where this will end up??
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Rebuttal originating from the wisdom of .::Tin Can::.
I love our new designations.
Yeah I though I wast still a Fenris, but the Admins are still hard at work for April Fools.
Anyway, I would really appreciate it if everyone would take this localized flame war somewhere else, like the PM system. It's not cool.
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Well I could cut down on the SD classes to lets say about 4 rather then 6.
And regarding the fleet/escort carriers I could cut down from 18 to about 10 or 12.
As for the battleshipslets say from 6 to 5 but the dreadnoughts stay in place.
As for the smaller cap ship/big cap ship ratio the way I figured its just about right.
Because you have a total of 70 destroyers from which almost 25 of them belong to special units such as the Federation's Preatorian Guard's Fleets,The Madjai Elite Fleets,and SOC/GTVFI fleets.
The Federation's Preatorian Guard's Fleets were created to ensure that someone watches over the Federation and all of its assets,in desperate times this new force can hold down a enemy fleet 3 times its size.The Madjai were created to succed were GTVF forces would fail.These 3 Madjai Fleets can take on some 5 Sathanos Class juggernaought and win not only disposing of the threat but capturing enemy ships.These guis are the elite of GTVFI/SOC elite.There are no better pilots in the GTVF.
The fleets were conceived in mi campaign story like this:
-1-3 destroyers per fleet
-1-5frigates per fleet an some would get 0 as these ships are quite expensive and dificul to produce and are relatively new some 4 years into existence.Theyrcreation brought the GTVF big cap ship building to almost 0,so that they concentrated on these things and on new corvettes cruisers and stuff like that.
-1-6 corvettes per fleet
-1-8 cruisers per fleet.
The Fleets sizes vary on the home sistem on the duties it has to perform etc.
And I must say that by now the GTVF has almost mastered the usage of Knossos devices by this I mean they can force open nodes to new sistems they can stabalize nodes,reopen colapsed nodes enlarge nodes so that a juggernought can pase not just a probe or a fighter.The only node remaining unopened was the sole nodebecause there were complications from the NTVA and unique technical problems specific to the Sol node they didnt encounter enywhere else.
+ they have Hyperdrives,they can travel through hyperspace.
Thys means of travel is much slower the subspace travel but its a lot more safer then traveling through the weak jumpnodes.
Did I mention they get controle of several shivan shipyards and drydocks..???? well they do....!
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This discussion has degraded quickly.
Um, fleet stuff. Yeah. Anyway, whats the point of knowing what the fleet statistics of the GTVF would be after 50+ years of development? First of all, no one knoweth beyond a reasonable guess what the fleet statistics of the GTVA art in the Capella age, so there's no way to calculate what they might be half a century later. Second of all, the game is about Alpha 1. The only thing the player needs to knowest is what Alpha 1 knows. Alpha 1 only needs to knowest what Alpha 1 needs to know, and Alpha 1 doesn't need to knowest the exact fleet statistics of the GTVF. So just make a story, use whatever ships you need, leave out the ridiculous stuff (uber-destroyers), and just use what the story needs to be fun for the player.
And remember, if the galaxy is full of uber-destroyers everywhere you look, Alpha 1 becomes pretty insignificant, and players don't like being insignificant.
I suspect the GTVA fleet wast built around the story, not the story built around the fleet.
(By the way, whats with the funky ship classes? Freespace already has its ship classes: Fighter, Bomber, Cruiser, Corvette, Destroyer, Juggernaught. Where did these Frigate, Battleship, Carrier and Superdestroyer classes come from? If you want a Carrier class, just make the GTD Quimby class destroyer and sayeth it carries a lot of fighters. Poof! its a Carrier.)
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Frigate Class as well as superdestroyer classes are canon (Iceni, Lucifer), while the other classes would bring some confusion imho...
Freespace scale to real scale:
Cruiser= Destroyer, Corvette= Cruiser, Frigate = Battle Cruiser, Destroyer= Battleship and so on...
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Rebuttal originating from the wisdom of Arculis
This discussion has degraded quickly.
Um, fleet stuff. Yeah. Anyway, whats the point of knowing what the fleet statistics of the GTVF would be after 50+ years of development? First of all, no one knoweth beyond a reasonable guess what the fleet statistics of the GTVA art in the Capella age, so there's no way to calculate what they might be half a century later. Second of all, the game is about Alpha 1. The only thing the player needs to knowest is what Alpha 1 knows. Alpha 1 only needs to knowest what Alpha 1 needs to know, and Alpha 1 doesn't need to knowest the exact fleet statistics of the GTVF. So just make a story, use whatever ships you need, leave out the ridiculous stuff (uber-destroyers), and just use what the story needs to be fun for the player.
And remember, if the galaxy is full of uber-destroyers everywhere you look, Alpha 1 becomes pretty insignificant, and players don't like being insignificant.
I suspect the GTVA fleet wast built around the story, not the story built around the fleet.
(By the way, whats with the funky ship classes? Freespace already has its ship classes: Fighter, Bomber, Cruiser, Corvette, Destroyer, Juggernaught. Where did these Frigate, Battleship, Carrier and Superdestroyer classes come from? If you want a Carrier class, just make the GTD Quimby class destroyer and sayeth it carries a lot of fighters. Poof! its a Carrier.)
Deciding on the fleet sizes has something of a knock on effect on your plot. One of the first things I did for TMA after coming up with a good idea of the plot was decide how big the GTVA fleet would be. Since I decided to keep it small it had an effect. Since I had an idea how quickly the GTVA could respond the the crisis they face in TMA I had a good idea what ships would become available and when. I coud then work that into my proposed plotline.
The result is that (at least in my opinion) the plot for TMA doesn't leave the player wondering why the GTVA doesn't throw 10 destroyers at the problem (something I frequently wondered about FS2).
I do however agree with you about leaving the player sitting around doing nothing while watching the big ships fight. If Alpha One isn't central to the battle then games become somewhat boring as the player can slack off and still finish the mission successfully.
As for the ship designations I see no harm in adding new classes. Many campaigns have done it. My own SoR features a 1km long capship which carrys 50 fighters but would lose a beam fight to a Deimos. What on earth would you classify that as? It's obviously not a Corvette as it carries too many fighters but to call it a destroyer when a corvette can beat it is obviously foolish too.
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Rebuttal originating from the wisdom of aldo_14
I agree with this..... it's not 100% relevant, but I checked the dictionary meaning;
Might be an idea to look up cruiser, Corvette and Destroyer while you're in there Aldo :p
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This thread is now about correct namings of FS2 ship types, scale and what carriers should be called.
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Come on! This is completely irrelevant but your just a squadron leader and are not going to be informed of every loss. Plus the actual timeline from the juggernaught fleet entering cappella to its destruction is only a matter of days. Plus its a game, we're not going to be told everything that an actual person in that position would hear.
On another point, in the final mission were told by Petrarch that the third fleet has been, I believe PULVERISED is the term used, and that was by conventional shivan battleships, the saths were occupied with the sun. However he also goes on to say that the shivans must be stopped in cappella because of the fact that there is very little left to stop them. It has to be assumed that once the knossos was opened reinforcements began pouring into cappella.
As well as that, thered been a war going on for months no doubt leaving the non frontline fleets to be scoured for spare parts and ships. AND another thing. There were two blockades, one at the cappella - epsilon pegasai and cappella - vega node. Another reason to multiply the death toll.
Thats me spent for a while.
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The 6 basic ship classes make it easy for the player to understand what they're up against. If I'm told in a briefing that we're going up against two carriers, the TRC Fiend and the TRC Haven (Terran Rebellion Carrier), it doesn't draw up any pictures in my mind. Is a Carrier a reasonably small 500 meter ship that carries an abnormal number of fighters, or is it a towering 5 kilometer ship that'll be a major threat, not to mention being paired. If you refer to them as cruisers, corvettes, destroyers or juggernauts, then I knowest what scale/threat factor we're talking about here.
And for the record, the Iceni model is labeled as a corvette :P Corvettes cover the size scope from around 500m to 1km in length. So it would be reasonable to label karajorma's 1km long capship with 50 fighters as a large corvette. Since Freespace 2 doesn't bother to keep its ship classes true to their dictionary defenitions, I descry no reason why a corvette couldn't be loaded down with fighters.
Fighters: thy average fighter
Bombers: fighters capable of using more powerful bombs.
Cruiser: ships ranging from around 200-400 meters.
Corvette: ships ranging from around 500-1000 meters
Destroyer: ships ranging from around 2000-3000 meters.
Superdestroyer: an abnormally large/powerful destroyer
Juggernaut: ships that art considerably larger than destroyers :P
Any new size class: ships that make sathanas and colossus looketh small (Gigas in Inferno).
This is probably pretty pointless, but I'm picky. There may not be anything wrong with adding new ship classes, but it tends to disrupts the feel of the game for me.
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That would be superjug...
Or maybe mothership or mobile C3
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Rebuttal originating from the wisdom of Arculis
The 6 basic ship classes make it easy for the player to understand what they're up against. If I'm told in a briefing that we're going up against two carriers, the TRC Fiend and the TRC Haven (Terran Rebellion Carrier), it doesn't draw up any pictures in my mind. Is a Carrier a reasonably small 500 meter ship that carries an abnormal number of fighters, or is it a towering 5 kilometer ship that'll be a major threat, not to mention being paired. If you refer to them as cruisers, corvettes, destroyers or juggernauts, then I knowest what scale/threat factor we're talking about here.
And for the record, the Iceni model is labeled as a corvette :P Corvettes cover the size scope from around 500m to 1km in length. So it would be reasonable to label karajorma's 1km long capship with 50 fighters as a large corvette. Since Freespace 2 doesn't bother to keep its ship classes true to their dictionary defenitions, I descry no reason why a corvette couldn't be loaded down with fighters.
If the briefing doesn't give you an idea of the level of threat from a ship then the briefing was poorly written.
Simply calling my ship a corvette would have a similar effect. Next time you were told you were going up against a corvette you wouldn't know if this was a fighter killing machine like the Deimos or a simple fighter launching platform like my carrier.
Besides your designation has a big hole in it for ships around 1.5 km in size. What on Earth do you call them?
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Bigger is Better.
Big ships are of course far cooler and more important than the little things, like scout capships, AWACs, point-defense ships, reconnaissance fighters and every little cool piece of tech FS universe lacks/has only in small irrelevant quantities/is only available in some MODs, rarely on a regular basis.
The superjug/superdest/LOOK AT MY COMPENSATION thing still hasn't died, and I, for one, eagerly await for something smaller and more delicate to become a smash hit.
I mean, jesus. Is it because of Inferno which, while :coal: and :kewl: and fun to play, went berzerk and introduced a ****load of BFShips? And because it's the only major campaign which has at least part of it completed and crew/fanbase devoted enough to actually make some progress AND SHOW IT TO THOSE WITHOUT ACCESS TO INTERNAL FORUMS[/i]? I only lurked in VBB for a while, and VWatch is dead, but here in HLP it seems to be a trend to make ships which are T H I S too huge.
/end rant,
what
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Not everyone is building super ships. There are quite a few campaigns that don't have any.
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I still find it peculiar that there art so many custom destroyers out there, but not so many custom cruisers, considering how much more common cruisers art (or should be).
Cruisers are going to end up getting phased out sometime soon. Who needs 'em when you've got just as many destroyers?
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Here's a custom cruiser:
(http://www.duke.edu/~cek6/hpcruise1.jpg)
(http://www.duke.edu/~cek6/hpcruise2.jpg)
(http://www.duke.edu/~cek6/hpcruise3.jpg)
Cruisers have their place, if only as escorts for transports (as they are faster than the larger ships) and as anti-fighter platforms. There should be more of them in a larger fleet.
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That thing has Taiidan Destroyer written all over it.
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I love it!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I agree completely. Looks like an almost exact copy :D
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I'd be absolutely forced to give it a better texture job if I was able to procureth such a model.
(sorry, but since that stupid template, I've been unable to stop the -eths)
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Classifying ships by size insted by size AND function is wrong from the begging.
The biggest ship you have in the gmae, heavily armed and DOESN'T carry fighter/bomberrs - that's a Battleship
The biggest ships you have that does carry fighter/bombers and is not uber-armed - that's a (heavy) Carrier...
Now, proceed clasyifying all other ships compared to these (since you can call a standard FS2 cruiser a destroyer or a cruiser, and I'll not get into that)...
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Except every ship destroyer size or above in FS carries fighters and bombers...
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Trashman's got his own classification system that probably doesn't relate to most people's works or any reference from :V:. I'd think that the most logical system is to establish a naming convention, which :V: did seemingly on the basis of size alone, and stick with that. If the GTVA is introducing a new Frigate class into the mix, then new alien ships similar to this new class would be designated "Frigates". The Moloch has a fighterbay, but it is a corvette; if the GTVA built a light strike carrier with the size of a corvette, somewhat undergunned, and a fighterbay, then the Moloch would probably be reclassified as a Strike Carrier. The GTVA, aside from the Colossus, has nothing larger than a Destroyer, so when a systematic class of vessels appears that falls well above the criteria for destroyers they are labeled Juggernauts, a non-technical, non-milatary term meaning essentially "really powerful." If the Colossus was standardized as, say, a Dreadnaut class, then the Sathanas would probably be reclassed a Dreadnaut. Truth be told, no one knows enough about the Shivans to give a quantative analysis to their categorization of ship types, so the ones used by the GTVA are applied. Now the introduction of classes into the classification scheme should be kept to a minimum I think, but if you're going to add one or two into the fleet you're fighting for, then by all means feel free to do so. Just don't expect other people to use your classifications outside of your project.