Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: aldo_14 on April 02, 2004, 03:31:13 pm
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3593927.stm
:sigh:
NB: the same tactic (specifically, threats of bombs on lines) was used by a French terrorist group to try & hold the country hostage a few weeks ago - it ended after police found several (?) devices, and the group withdrew it's threats.
Scary stuff, though - Imagine the security problems of monitoring and securing the transport system of any city.....
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Did they ever officially decide who did the other bombings? So far I've heard it was the ETA from the old government, and a Morroccan group with ties to Al Quaida from the new.
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Al Queida
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When are you people going to realize that terrorism is not a law enforcement problem. THEY ARE AT WAR WITH US. They seek nothing less than the complete obliteration of our way of life and it's subsequent replacement by theirs.
The only way to stop them is through the undeniable force.
If you put them in jail, they will eventually get out and start up the bombings and shootings and everything else again.
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What do you suggest then? That we summarily execute every 'proven' terrorist? Or would you prefer the easy route of just wiping out all Muslims on the planet?
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Liberator, might I point out that you also "seek nought less than the complete obliteration of their way of life and it's subsequent replacement by yours." Thats what you did in Afghanistan, and thats you art trying to do elsewhere. For my money, Al Queda is not trying to destroy my way of life, thats to broad and vague a statement. They art after specific goal, not just "bwahaha destroy everything".
But yeah, it sucks. Toronto has quite an elaborate tran/subway transportation system and, well, you knowest whither I'm going with this. I can't imagine why Canada would be a target, but nevertheless....
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The bus bombs will start in NYC this summer.
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No I don't. I would be quite happy to allow them to live in peace so long as they leave us in peace, as would everyone else in the world. They are the ones forcing our hand, not the other ####ing way around. You're fooling yourself if you believe otherwise.
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There is a good point in that this is not a criminal/law enforcement issue per say...its more like a war and people have to start recognizing it.
In many ways the parallels to various events before and during WWII are evident. Before WWII there were numerous smaller conflicts which were starting to boil over...the Spanish Civil War, the Russians and the Japanese, the Chinese and the Japanese, not to mention the movements of Nazi Germany in the late 1930's...I wonder and worry that we have all kinds of seemingly unconnected hotspots (Taiwan & China, Iraq, bombings and nearly successful bombings in Europe, trouble along the Russian border in several places now...so on and so forth) that may eventually connect themselves and lead to a much more significant conflict...hard to say who the players would be since its not the kind of state conflict of the past.
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'Our way of life' involves the fair trial and - for lack of a better term - fair punishment.
The closer we move to executing terrorists out of spite, the closer we move to the world they want to live in.....the closer we come to abandoning that system of law that they want to destroy.
First it's simply the death penalty for terrorists... then for terrorist sympathisers, then for those who disagree with the governement. Or we move in a different direction, and start to massacre civillians to send a 'message'.
We're better than them. But when we start killing people to make a point, then we risk becoming the same as them.
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Well, forgive my cynicism, but if you ask me the terrorists won long ago. They've been running the world for a while now. These guys planting the bombs, they're not *the* terrorists, they're just another terrorist group. They've got no chance whatsoever of siezing any real power, but then again, neither do normal people.
The people of the world aren't fighting this war, they're just caught in the crossfire. This isn't my war, I don't make the decisions, I don't have any say in the matter, I don't reap any of the rewards. Let Dubya and Osama shoot at each other all they want, just keep the hell out it. Thi isn't Us vs Them, this is Them vs Them. Dubya doesn't represent me, neither does Osama.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
...fair punishment.
What if things were changed so that it was viewed as 'fair' to execute them?
Though yeah, i agree, killing them is what they want - if they're motivated enough to carry out suicide bombings for their cause, the electric chair is just another path to becoming a martyr.
Whats the current sentencing for "terrorism" anyway? In Britain? USA? Anywhere else, out of interest?
Life in jail seems fair enough. And I mean life, not 25 years, so they don't "eventually get out and start up the bombings and shootings and everything else again." - Liberator. You'd have to keep it pretty low key though (however you'd do that...), don't want to inspire more 'martyrs'.
I doubt the rest of your life in a cell with a 400 lb ex-wrestler who "likes the brown" ;7 is that glamourous in the eyes of Allah.
Two more light hearted points:
- Thats the good thing about Britains Railways - not worth blowing up... and
- http://forum.asiaco.com/cgi-bin/forum/forum.cgi?c=msg&fid=pakistan&mid=18419
Found this while searching for the spelling of Allah. Intresting reading. Anyone for Caps Lock? :lol:
[/list]
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Originally posted by beatspete
Life in jail seems fair enough. And I mean life, not 25 years, so they don't "eventually get out and start up the bombings and shootings and everything else again." - Liberator. You'd have to keep it pretty low key though (however you'd do that...), don't want to inspire more 'martyrs'.
I doubt the rest of your life in a cell with a 400 lb ex-wrestler who "likes the brown" ;7 is that glamourous in the eyes of Allah.
That's my opinion too. Toss them in jail and forget where you put the key. It denies them the glory of being martyred, as well as being a rallying figure (especially if they are place in life inprisonment practically in secret, i.e. not making a huge noise about it) for their group/cause.
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I actually rather dislike the death penalty in general. It seems simultaneously inhumane and not strong enough a penalty. How is getting poison injected into one's veins the appropriate punishment for things such as mass murder?
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[q]Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events.
Sir Winston Churchill[/q]
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Everyone wants an end to terrorism, but that is a war that will not end.. It cannot be stopped because, the nature of the beast you speak of has no fear and is willing to die a horrible death to make, in my view, a stupid point..
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Terrorism has been present for centuries. Why would it end now?
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Because the USofA has decided to get rid of it.
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And how does that really make much of a difference? You can take terrorists out with an army, but you can't take out terrorism itself. The best you can do is cause it to go underground for a while. Then it will resurface, with a different group with a different cause, possibly even different tactics.
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Well, there is one way to end terrorism for good, but no one seems to be very nterested in that approach.
Take away the terrorist's reason to exist. Stop acting like an Empire, and you will stop being attacked like one.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3598219.stm
Madrid 'ringleader' dies in blast
The alleged ringleader of the Madrid attacks is named as one of the suspects who blew themselves up in a police raid.
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Originally posted by Liberator
No I don't. I would be quite happy to allow them to live in peace so long as they leave us in peace, as would everyone else in the world. They are the ones forcing our hand, not the other ####ing way around. You're fooling yourself if you believe otherwise.
Want to hear something funny? They did leave us alone, until the USA stuck their nose in everyones business, now we got terrorism problems.
Why is this happening? because the US is acting like the big bullies on the block, only problem is they cant even protect their own soil, and now have CAUSED THIS ENTIRE PROBLEM SINGLE HANDEDLY!
US foreign policy the last 4 years alone has made terrorism the western hemisphere's worst threat.
Should of just left the arabs and their oil alone, but you just couldnt do it could ya.
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Wrong Lonestar.
It wasn't US policy in the last 4 years that led to terrorism. It was the complete ineptitude of the Clinton Administration at Mogadishu and in responding to the first attack on the WTC and the attack on the USS Cole that led to the attacks on 9/11/2001.
We didn't do anything except threaten their little ego-maniacal "empire" with the concepts of liberty and by showing the populace of the region that they can have more than what the bastards at the top deign to let them scrape together.
You and your kind are exactly the kind of people the terrorists(all of them) want, the kind who will give them what ever they ask for just so they won't attack you. This is the wrong way to deal with them.
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Originally posted by Liberator
It wasn't US policy in the last 4 years that led to terrorism. It was the complete ineptitude of the Clinton Administration at Mogadishu and in responding to the first attack on the WTC and the attack on the USS Cole that led to the attacks on 9/11/2001.
BLAME IT ON TEH CLINTONS!!!! YAYS! RHETORIC!!! YAYS!!!
Liberator's canned rebuttal: OMFG J00 EVIL LIBERALL!!!!
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Ye that sums it up I'd say Ace.
The mistake the US made was trying to treat the world populace like idiots by one minute saying they were out to democratise countries like Indonesia, Iraq, et al and then another minute admitting things like the new american century project.
People can take attempts at global domination at face value and go - fair play we'd do it too given the chance, we'll just have to make sure you don't achieve it.
However, when you pretend to be doing something completely different and treat any nation that opposes you as irrelevant and "old europe protecting it's interests" like you have moral authority to do so - there begins the problem.
Altho I should say: To hell with the arab terrorists - do what you like to them IF THEY ARE GENUINELY TERRORISTS AGAINST DEMOCRACY.
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Info on New American Century please, I am unaware of it.
The only reason Euros and Leftist like Clinton is because he Brown-Nosed his way around. The reason Euros and Leftists don't like the current American President is because he's not a brown-noser who kisses butts to make people happy.
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Mad dog Liberals, Mad dog republicans, Mad dogs.
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Originally posted by Liberator
Info on New American Century please, I am unaware of it.
The only reason Euros and Leftist like Clinton is because he Brown-Nosed his way around. The reason Euros and Leftists don't like the current American President is because he's not a brown-noser who kisses butts to make people happy.
What made Clinton a brown nose? What makes **** not?!
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
And read the details Lib, preferably without screaming the words "leftist" at anyone who inteprets it badly while doing so.
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Main reason Euros don;t like the current president is because he has all the intelligence of a toasted crumpet.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Main reason Euros don;t like the current president is because he has all the intelligence of a toasted crumpet.
Nah, the act of toasting gives the crumpet more intelligence through osmosis...
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Ok I'm about to open a huge can of worms but if it wasn't for Americans laying down their lives in two world wars then where would the world be? I dont agree with everything my goverment does but I sure as H*** dont like what the UN does when they beg us to help keep the peace in places like Bosnia and other places and then basicly say that were a sorry goverment when some back water third world dic*head wants to make trouble for us. As far as I am concerned the US should kick out the UN and shut our borders til another dictator threatens the world and tell them you got yourself in this mess so get yourself out, we are not about to send our sons and daughters to get them selves killed for a bunch of ingrates. We have taken so much sh** just because we decided to help people and others countries are too damn greedy or jealous for the attention.
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Clinton..hmm lets see:
Bombed and sent troops into Bosnia
Bombed and sent troops into Kosovo
Bombed Iraq
Sent troops into Mogadishu
Bombed Sudanese asprin factory
Presided over Iraqi and Cuban sanctions
Continued support for Israel, running counter to numerous UN resolution
Presided over unprecedented expantion in "globalization" style capitalism
Continued support for dictators from Uzbekistan to Saudi Arabia
oh yeah, a real dove. With friends like him, who needs enemies.
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Forgetting the typical ww2 comments for now.... Zeon, the _UN_ doesn't actually ask for US help - we're "given" it whether we want it or not.
About the toasting.... does that mean we should shove tony and george in a Toastie maker? :lol: Who likes cheese filling?
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Zeon, during the Clinton years, America WAS the UN. No one ever came begging to America to go into Bosnia, it was a US initiative. Same thing with a number of other military interventions. Only now that Dubya has taken over, do we see the UN disagreeing with America. This doesn't mean Clinton's policies were significantly different than Dubya's, its just that he knew how to manufacture consent among the "unruly masses" of the UN.
And, excuse my ignorance, but wasn't there also one or two other countries involved in WW2, other than America. I vaguely remeber the Russians sending a few troops, and Britain may or may not have dedicated a few planes to the cause. Probably just my memory playing tricks on me.
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Actually Zeon to address your point about the sacrifice made in ww2 by US troops.
Yes the US was a key ally of the UK and occupied mainland european nations. However, by your logic let's look at an analogy.
I save a group of young school girls from a burning building. I am teh **** hot hero. Now, years later they're 18 and I take one out, date rape her and then claim she was just too drunk to remember consenting. Oh and btw I have so much power no one can question my story.
Replace me with the US and the girls with the rest of the world and well.... you see where I'm going.
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Originally posted by Zeon
Ok I'm about to open a huge can of worms but if it wasn't for Americans laying down their lives in two world wars then where would the world be? I dont agree with everything my goverment does but I sure as H*** dont like what the UN does when they beg us to help keep the peace in places like Bosnia and other places and then basicly say that were a sorry goverment when some back water third world dic*head wants to make trouble for us. As far as I am concerned the US should kick out the UN and shut our borders til another dictator threatens the world and tell them you got yourself in this mess so get yourself out, we are not about to send our sons and daughters to get them selves killed for a bunch of ingrates. We have taken so much sh** just because we decided to help people and others countries are too damn greedy or jealous for the attention.
Yes, and there wouldn't be a US if the French hadn;t provided support to them colonists during the civil war. What makes this less relevant than WW1 or 2, i wonder?
Also, have you ever considered the Us has taken '****' because it was just_plain_wrong? Especially over Iraq, a country now gone to hell in a handbasket?
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I seem to remember our most significant contributions being in WW2, with us not even getting into Europe until a few months before the Armistice for WW1. And our main support in WW2 being in manufacturing capacity in the first few years.
Also, let's play "Find the **** Administration" on this page (http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm).
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The short list of countries involved in WWII:
- Czecheslovakia
- Austria
- Hungary
- Romania
- Italy
- Poland
- Germany
- France
- Great Britian
- Canada
- Australia
- New Zealand
- Russia (the Soviet Union)
- China
- Japan
- Brazil
- Mexico
- United States
The list goes on...
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Hence the therm 'World War' :)
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I'd never heard of mexico's involvement in WWII. What did they do?
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Originally posted by karajorma
I'd never heard of mexico's involvement in WWII. What did they do?
not much, probably :)
Hitler did offer support to a Mexican invasion of Texas / New Mexico, though - he sent a message offering financial and even military support when it was looking increasingly likely that the Us would join in the fighting (to distract the Us and open a second front, obviously).
the south amercian allies were, IIRC, allied with the Axis even though they never fought. Hence why the Nazis fled to Argentina, in particular. I think the Royal Navy destroyed a German cruiser in a port in neutral Uruguay (who wouldn't let it repair and soforth because of their nuetrality).
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Not to mention the resistance movements in practically every occupied country. I am personally only familiar with the one in Yugoslavia, but there were others throughout occupied Europe.