Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: aldo_14 on April 07, 2004, 07:25:27 am
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3606845.stm
Um...pretty astonishing, this.
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Astounding.
That's photo's a bit troubling, as it looks like the baby's legs aren't attatched to anything.
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What an extraordinary act. :eek: People will go to great lengths to save life.
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Way to go, mexican senorita!
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Originally posted by aldo_14
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3606845.stm
Um...pretty astonishing, this.
If she had died, she would have deserved a Darwin award. To put it gently, I generally consider opening yourself up with a knife on purpose to fall under the definition of "stupid".
If your baby dies, you can have another unless you've reached menopause. If the baby's mother dies during delivery, the baby itself will likely die as well.
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really, how the bloody **** do you suggest to walk around with a half born baby in you?
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It might take hours to get to the hospital, by which time the baby would probably be dead, but YOU would likely have a far greater chnce of surviving by waiting those hours than if you cut yourself open in a decidedly nonsterile environment. There's a reason why surgeons take such extreme precautions to make sure themselves and the operating room and equipment are completely 100% clean.
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Wow.
Good job mexican lady. :)
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
If she had died, she would have deserved a Darwin award. To put it gently, I generally consider opening yourself up with a knife on purpose to fall under the definition of "stupid".
If your baby dies, you can have another unless you've reached menopause. If the baby's mother dies during delivery, the baby itself will likely die as well.
Do you know anyone who's had a miscarrige?
do you have any idea how emoptionally painful it is for the (would be)mother? How much they would want to avoid it again? Not to mention that it increases the risk of another miscarriage later one?
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Originally posted by mikhael
Wow.
Good job mexican lady. :)
Really unique.
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I support her A-1 idea, 100%! Woolie, you obviously don't know the emotional attachment a mother has to the life growing inside her. You may think it's simple to say, "If I lose the baby, oh well, I'll have sugar daddy knock me up again..." But you're just plain loco. You deserve to be peed on. Babies aren't things that grow on trees or you can put on lay-away (well, I guess you can in certain countries) that you can go pick up when your old one breaks.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Do you know anyone who's had a miscarrige?
do you have any idea how emoptionally painful it is for the (would be)mother? How much they would want to avoid it again? Not to mention that it increases the risk of another miscarriage later one?
But what about the husband (if there is one)? I would imagine that the death of a wife is far more traumatic than the death of a baby. And if the mother is the only parent and by some "miracle" the mother dies and the baby survives, what future is there for the baby? I highly doubt they have the kind of orphanages and foster homes that we have in the boondocks of Mexico.
You have no idea how dangerous a surgical procedure is in the conditions of a normal house, especially the kind of house you'd find belonging to a poor person in rural Mexico. It's like playing Russian roulette, except with four rounds in the cylinder instead of one.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
But what about the husband (if there is one)? I would imagine that the death of a wife is far more traumatic than the death of a baby. And if the mother is the only parent and by some "miracle" the mother dies and the baby survives, what future is there for the baby? I highly doubt they have the kind of orphanages and foster homes that we have in the boondocks of Mexico.
You have no idea how dangerous a surgical procedure is in the conditions of a normal house, especially the kind of house you'd find belonging to a poor person in rural Mexico. It's like playing Russian roulette, except with four rounds in the cylinder instead of one.
You obviously have no idea of the emotional bond between a parent and child.....the number one concern of this mother was to save her child, regardless of her own wellbeing. I think that should be applauded, not condemned. I know fine well how dangerous a 'procedure' it is - that's what makes it all the more impressive to me.
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It worked, so in the end she was right. If she desereves an award, it's certainly not the Darwin one.
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[color=cc9900]Lucky gal.
Y'know, only last week I was looking at a serrated Kitchen Devil knife and, after cutting an orange in one fell swoop with no juice loss, thinking how unnaturally easy it would be to mortally wound myself with it.[/color]
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Originally posted by aldo_14
You obviously have no idea of the emotional bond between a parent and child.....the number one concern of this mother was to save her child, regardless of her own wellbeing. I think that should be applauded, not condemned. I know fine well how dangerous a 'procedure' it is - that's what makes it all the more impressive to me.
It's laudable to risk your own life for an infant who's doomed without you (this is the middle of Mexico. There are no nice, loving foster parents to take an abandoned baby in)? The line between courage and idiocy is thin, but an act like this steps over it. She was very lucky not to have gotten a horrible, horrible infection. She may well have been infected with something nasty, but the disease is still incubating.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
It's laudable to risk your own life for an infant who's doomed without you (this is the middle of Mexico. There are no nice, loving foster parents to take an abandoned baby in)? The line between courage and idiocy is thin, but an act like this steps over it. She was very lucky not to have gotten a horrible, horrible infection. She may well have been infected with something nasty, but the disease is still incubating.
Because obviously Mexico is full of single parents with no money, and they have no hospital service capable of treating people?
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THE HOSPITAL IS EIGHT GODDAMN HOURS AWAY. THAT'S WHY SHE DIDN'T GO TO THE HOSPITAL IN THE FIRST PLACE. And no, Mexico is not really filled with single parents, but most families in Mexico ARE dead broke by our standards. It would be really hard for a single father to raise children in a hellhole like rural Mexico. Whole families have to work long hours in Mexico JUST TO GET ENOUGH FOOD TO SUSTAIN THEMSELVES. Mexico is a third-world country, especially the part of Mexico where this woman lived. Per-capita income is in the low four figures. Education is virtually nonexistent. Living conditions are squalid. The hospitals are few in number, small and crappy. Most Americans would probably not want to drink the water. These kinds of places are the absolute armpits of the Earth.
You can't just buckle down and "pull through" when one of the adult members of the family dies.
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I suppose woolie also believes that people on remote farms who get an arm caught in farm machinary should just wait for help rather than hacking the arm off :rolleyes:
There are a large number of birth complications that can also be fatal to the mother. How do you know this wasn't one of them?
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Meh, my mistake. Although she did make it into hospital anyways
Anyway, my point stands - She saved the babies life.
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WTF?
Its two floating legs, not attached to anything.
:wtf: :wtf:
oh and, woo! the mother had some nerves of steel
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Getting your arm mangled in a piece of farm equipment is completely different.
Since most labor complications involve the head not fitting through the vaginal opening, there is a relatively safe (compared to slicing your abdomen open) method of ending those complications: kill the baby and crush or remove its brain, which is effectively a partial-birth abortion. It's easier than you think, because babies' bones are soft and there's a hole in the top of a baby's skull where the bones haven't knit together.
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Originally posted by Rictor
oh and, woo! the mother had some nerves of steel
And some tequilla, by the sounds of it :D
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Getting your arm mangled in a piece of farm equipment is completely different.
Since most labor complications involve the head not fitting through the vaginal opening, there is a relatively safe (compared to slicing your abdomen open) method of ending those complications: kill the baby and crush or remove its brain, which is effectively a partial-birth abortion. It's easier than you think, because babies' bones are soft and there's a hole in the top of a baby's skull where the bones haven't knit together.
Right.... so your reaction in her positions would be "I know, I'll kill my kid!"?
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Originally posted by aldo_14
And some tequilla, by the sounds of it :D
Oh, yes, she must have had plenty of strong drink to have pulled that off.
Originally posted by aldo_14
Right.... so your reaction in her positions would be "I know, I'll kill my kid!"?
Most human beings would gladly kill ANY other human being to continue their own existence if things got desperate. Ever heard of those stories about shipwrecked sailors sustaining themselves through cannibalism? They're true. The survival instinct is perhaps the most powerful instinct of all in a normal person.
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While she should be applauded for bravery, she should also be told to never consider doing something like this again and to go on record discouraging this kind of behavior.
that was extremely dangerous and could have easily ended up in her killing herself and thereby killing the child as well - i bet she was trying to give birth on her back, ala stupid tradition which has been extended to many countries -- that is the hardest position to give birth in - the easiest is squatting
(PS: you know really where on-the-back came from - some king of england liked to wank off while watching his wives give birth)
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Oh, yes, she must have had plenty of strong drink to have pulled that off.
Most human beings would gladly kill ANY other human being to continue their own existence if things got desperate. Ever heard of those stories about shipwrecked sailors sustaining themselves through cannibalism? They're true. The survival instinct is perhaps the most powerful instinct of all in a normal person.
"Dr R Valle, of the Dr Manuel Velasco Suarez Hospital in San Pablo, Mexico, said: "She took three small glasses of hard liquor and, using a kitchen knife, sliced her abdomen in three attempts and delivered a male infant that breathed immediately and cried." "
You seem to get confused between the human survival instinct and the paternal instinct that drives a parent to put the life of a child above their own.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Most human beings would gladly kill ANY other human being to continue their own existence if things got desperate. Ever heard of those stories about shipwrecked sailors sustaining themselves through cannibalism? They're true. The survival instinct is perhaps the most powerful instinct of all in a normal person.
See, you're talking about individual-individual interactions. You're not talking about mother-offspring interactions. The general instincts for the two are completely different.
If you ever needed proof of this, this woman is it. Better yet, read medical literature discussing emergencies involving mother/child pairs. Mothers, regardless of species, will almost always place themselves in longt-term danger for the short-term survival of their offspring.
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Originally posted by Kazan
While she should be applauded for bravery, she should also be told to never consider doing something like this again and to go on record discouraging this kind of behavior.
that was extremely dangerous and could have easily ended up in her killing herself and thereby killing the child as well - i bet she was trying to give birth on her back, ala stupid tradition which has been extended to many countries -- that is the hardest position to give birth in - the easiest is squatting
(PS: you know really where on-the-back came from - some king of england liked to wank off while watching his wives give birth)
Given that she'd already lost a child due to labour complications, I think it's likely she was aware of the best position to give birth in - or at least would be aware of the signs of a miscarriage.
I react very badly to critism blaming the mother for a miscarriage, because both my friends wife and my own mother have suffered from them - and as such i have a pretty strong feeling of empathy.
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That instinct is really obsolete and detrimental to us (and more evidence against the religious idea of an intelligent designer) because unlike the young of many species, human infants and small children are COMPLETELY helpless without their parents. In the case of humans, the parent's life should really be considered more important than the offspring's, because the child cannot survive without the parents and only the parents have the ability to produce more children.
We have that instinct because many of our ancestors became self-sufficient within a year or less of their birth. However, it really doesn't work for humans because it takes a human being 11-16 (sometimes more) years to become self-sufficient and sexually mature.
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Nice redirection: arguing against the Darwinian fitness of an instinct rather than admitting you were wrong about the instinct in the first place. ;)
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Most mothers would gladly give their lives for that of their children. You can argue that this shouldn't be so, but the fact remains that it is.
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aldo: i didn't say anytihng about miscarages being her fault
however SOCIETY is a different thing, and encouraging improper birthing position that we have been doing for several hundred years has not helped the miscarriage rate
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You really don't know about mothers and children do you Woolie. A parent will die defending it's child, that's written into almost all of us. You are expecting a mother to crush her birthing childs head and pull out the brain? And this seems like a logical thing to do?
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It is the rational thing for a still reproductively viable mother whose life is at stake to do.
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oh, its perfectly logical, Flipside. Just not perfectly reasonable or practicable.
It really does make sense, in a cold, calculating, lucid, self-centered state of mind.
Fortunately, there's not a human being on the planet that exists in such a state of mind all the time (or for longer than a few minutes at a time really). Certainly not one of the pregnant women I've ever met has been in anything resembling a cold, calculating, lucid state of mind. ;)
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[color=cc9900]I don't know about you Woolie, but I don't have pointy ears. My society hasn't suppressed emotion yet.[/color]
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Woolie: generally I am the all-logical heartless one here - however i do know that human instincts will override rationality any day of the week - and maternal instinct is the single hardest one to overcome - stop being a nit
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It's not logical anyway, the logical thing is for the child to live and the mother to die if there is a choice. The child is the future after all. Of course, this also assumes it's 'logical' to have proper fostering/nursery facilities etc. You can't just say one thing should be logical when everything else affecting the situation isn't.
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Originally posted by Kazan
aldo: i didn't say anytihng about miscarages being her fault
however SOCIETY is a different thing, and encouraging improper birthing position that we have been doing for several hundred years has not helped the miscarriage rate
I know :) (just in case someone picked up on it and did)
I was really just saying why i feel somewhat strongly about this..
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
But what about the husband (if there is one)? I would imagine that the death of a wife is far more traumatic than the death of a baby. And if the mother is the only parent and by some "miracle" the mother dies and the baby survives, what future is there for the baby? I highly doubt they have the kind of orphanages and foster homes that we have in the boondocks of Mexico.
You have no idea how dangerous a surgical procedure is in the conditions of a normal house, especially the kind of house you'd find belonging to a poor person in rural Mexico. It's like playing Russian roulette, except with four rounds in the cylinder instead of one.
No, the death of a child is much more traumatic, because the mother has lived a lot of her life, the child has not yet even begun. The mother did what she was supposed to, have kids. The kid's done nothing yet.