Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: Sandwich on April 12, 2004, 05:12:10 am
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Currently the underlying subspace tunnel consists of two tapered cylinders, rotating at a decent clip around their long axis in opposite directions.
What do people think about a new model that has 4 layers? The inner two would be the same as the current ones, but the outer two could be rotating slower, still in opposing directions, and with more subtly colored textures.
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Huh? :confused:
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I say yes. The current model works, but it could be better. And right now you can see the edges of the cylinders.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Huh? :confused:
Subspace is currently two layered, with different textures rotating in opposite directions to each other. Sandwich is suggesting we make a new model which has four layers, which also rotate (perhaps at different speeds), and will add to the richness of the subspace effect. I vote aye, though I'm still not entirely sure why this is in the SCP section. :)
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why not, if it looks better in the end.
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I voted maybe, I would have to see screenies of candidates and an accounting of performance impact would need to be made.
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i voted yes, since it's a mission area, it's in need of an upgrade, and higher-res textures at that.
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A very big yes, Subspace is taken for granted - a lot more could be made of it (not to mention different types etc).
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I'm not sure how this would look different from the current effect - I'd have to see some examples. And I'm not sure how it would be implemented. But I'm open to ideas. :)
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I can't see this causing a huge performance hit. After all, you're really only adding what? 1200 polys maximum (and that's assuming you decided to make the cones really high res along their length and their circumference).
Adding more layers can only improve the look of subspace. I say do it and do it now.
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I'm up for contributing textures. :D
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Originally posted by Setekh
...though I'm still not entirely sure why this is in the SCP section. :)
Oops, I just hit "New Topic" from another thread where I got the idea. :p
But if we're already here.... what kind of SCP enhancements could we give subspace? I'd like to see lightning bolts ala the stormy nebulas.
EDIT: Hmm, I just looked into the VP - the 2 current layers of subspace are actually seperate files, not just rotating subsystems. So SCP help would be required I think.
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Re: Lightning:
I agree, but we really need good lightning. The stuff we have now seems like it could be expanded on a lot better into "proper" lightning... as opposed to colored lines.
Also, it'd be nice if Subspace could be made to have EMP effects and other neat stuff.
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Maybe a long winding and spiralling tunnel instead of just one long..cylinder ? :nervous:
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Just a couple of ideas but..
http://www.7of12.co.uk/backgrounds/warp.jpg
http://ftp.linux.org.uk/mirrors/ftp.gnome.org/teams/art.gnome.org/backgrounds/GNOME-Warp.png (but without the logo in the centre)
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The lightning, they would look cool, but running only on the corridor "walls"
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Yeah, subspace definately needs an overhaul.
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I voted maybe also, but I want to see in-game screenies too in order to make a final decision.
This is definitely worth pursuing.
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I voted yes, but how often does the subspace tunnel actually make an appearance in FS2 or mod missions? Maybe it just my memory, but I don't recall seeing it even once in FS2, even in the missions where the Bastion is supposed to blow up the Capella node. Well, I can't vouch for mods, becuase I haven't played them all.
Not to hijack this thread, but has anyone thought of doing a new and improved jump animation? The current one is showing its age, and its an aspect of the game that is seen very often. Maybe just upping the resolution or even modifying the actual look. Just a thought.
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It shows up for the final mission of the original FS game, but never again - indeed it doesn't work at all in stock FS2, you need a mod to get it running. It's underestimated if you ask me - you could have a lot of fun with it.
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Originally posted by Nico
The lightning, they would look cool, but running only on the corridor "walls"
How about we just find a way to make the game think that the subspace corridor pof is dammaged to 1% health. It should then generate "wall lightning" all by itself. ;)
Just joking mainly.
Later!
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Originally posted by Rictor
Not to hijack this thread, but has anyone thought of doing a new and improved jump animation? The current one is showing its age, and its an aspect of the game that is seen very often. Maybe just upping the resolution or even modifying the actual look. Just a thought.
The vortex is an FS signature. I might support a new one, but only if it improves on the current one without looking significantly different.
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subspace ???? wazat???
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...
:wtf:
...moving on...
Anyone going to attempt it? Or should I do something?
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Subspace is akin to "lightspeed" in Star Wars or "Warp" in Star Trek, although it relies on conduits in space that only occur at certain points (which is where jump nodes are. Two jump nodes are connected by subspace.) A ship enters subspace at one point and travels much more rapidly than would be possible via conventional drives untill it reaches its destination point.
In FS2 you helped the Bastion to detonate one node and make transportation between Capella and the adjoining system impossible. No node - no conduit - no transportation via that route.
Players only ever saw Subspace in FreeSpace: The Great War (the first game) during the last mission where you attempted to destroy the SD Lucifer before it reached the Sol system and destroy earth.
Subspace looks like this:
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UGLY!!!!
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Can someone post a screenie of how it has been implemented in FS2 besides using the port?
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That is FS2... I just created a Subspace mission in FRED2. Granted it's using the SCP - but that doesnt seem to have made any changes to the tunnel.
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Why? There's no difference..
It's a pof, right? I can't remember. If it is, I'll attempt making another version. I had a cool one for Truespace renders, so it's not that hard to make.
Edit: Pooh. Kal beat me to the point.
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Yay, even more disorientation and dyslexia (however you spell it.)
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It's still ugly.
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So vote yes and think up some ideas of how it could be made better :nod:
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Originally posted by adwight
Yay, even more disorientation and dyslexia (however you spell it.)
What do you mean?
Damnit I have class now, so I can't reply to your reply. :doubt:
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Lightning in subspace should be reserved for when you're travelling through an unstable node. ;)
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Originally posted by Kalfireth
Just a couple of ideas but..
http://www.7of12.co.uk/backgrounds/warp.jpg
http://ftp.linux.org.uk/mirrors/ftp.gnome.org/teams/art.gnome.org/backgrounds/GNOME-Warp.png (but without the logo in the centre)
The second one is kinda...funky. The stars aren't moving. Like you said, subspace is traveling faster, right? Stars shouldn't even be there, and if they are..well they should be moving really fast like lightspeed in Star Wars :D
Originally posted by Trivial Psychic
How about we just find a way to make the game think that the subspace corridor pof is dammaged to 1% health. It should then generate "wall lightning" all by itself.
LMAO Funny guy...
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i think it should stay the way it is with two layers, but up the polys.
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It could use a high resolution texture too.
Too bad FS2_open doesn't have any shaders, I'd bet some really cool effects could be done.
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Model made by one of our modelling legends
Textures by Lightspeed please
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How bout overlapping layers of textures that are turning, like what Omni did with his Earth model and its clouds.
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Originally posted by Kalfireth
Just a couple of ideas but..
http://www.7of12.co.uk/backgrounds/warp.jpg
http://ftp.linux.org.uk/mirrors/ftp.gnome.org/teams/art.gnome.org/backgrounds/GNOME-Warp.png (but without the logo in the centre)
Thunder, you've found what I think should be the basis of an updated subspace tunnel. Excellent work finding those.
For those who think a new subspace tunnel is pointless, or you think it should remaind the same, the solution is simple. Don't use it. Don't even discuss it. Just don't use it. Everyone gets what they want that way.
Same goes for an updated jump-vortex. If you like the original, use it. If you want an updated, better looking one, use an updated better looking one.
Some things around here are discussed until they're dead, and it seems like nothing new, interesting, or nice ever gets done.
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I have an idea.
I have no idea as to implementation, or the kind of artwork that would be required, or how many layers or whatnot would be needed, but I just had this idea, and I want to post it before it disappears.
Keep the visible portions of subspace--the blue "walls". Maybe change the color, but that might offend the purists, so put that aside, for now. I want to address the dark "gaps" between the subspace wall itself.
Would it be possible to replace this darkness with another image? Or, to add a lightning-like "flashing" effect that would flicker every so often, to illuminate the darkened region?
I'm envisioning fighters traveling through subspace, engaged in a battle of some kind. The swirling walls rotate around them, spinning and spinning, but beyond the subspace barrier, there's something else. Something briefly lit up by each flash of light... or bathed in low, red, constant illumination:
Silhouettes of Shivan craft. Battleships. Destroyers. An armada of shadows, within sight, and yet out of reach. Drifting. Waiting.
Watching. :nervous:
The classic designs can be seen, the black outline of Sathani, Cains, and perhaps Lucifers against the lighter background.
Along with other craft that dwarf anything previously seen in the Shivan fleet...
Just rambling, I know. But still, I think it'd look cool. :blah:
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well if a new jump animation that could capture the feel of the origonal, I'd be all for it, but makeing some huge visable change is like saying, "hey lets make the orion all smooth and curvy, and I know lets paint it green and white while were at it!".
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Well, possibly the 'travelling without moving' effect from Dune would be more along the lines of what you need? ;)
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I'm all for a better warp.pof, though I like the ones we already have. It's something of a minor effect, and hard to innovate improvements for, barring the addition of some new eye-candy like a rotating vortex or bolts of energy or itty-bitty pieces of debris getting sucked in/expelled or something. :p
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Originally posted by Bobboau
well if a new jump animation that could capture the feel of the origonal, I'd be all for it, but makeing some huge visable change is like saying, "hey lets make the orion all smooth and curvy, and I know lets paint it green and white while were at it!".
Actually, no, its not.
What is the jump animation? Its a swirly vortex that opens and the ship passes through. It captures the 'feel' of a ship jumping out. So does the Babylon 5 hyperspace vortex (in or out). They both "capture the feel".
That's entirely different from, say, putting together a jump animation that involves the ship disintegrting into poly shards and having them disperse (your 'lets make the orion all smooth and curvy'). It doesn't 'capture the feel'.
And like I said before (and I'll even bold and italicise it so you won't miss it this time):
IF YOU DO NOT LIKE NEW EFFECTS THAT PEOPLE PUT TOGETHER, DO NOT USE THEM.
By the same token, don't seek to stifle someone else's creativity, just because you don't think something will look like YOU envision the game. It accomplishes nothing of value, except, perhaps for the person doing the stifling by inflating his or her pathetic self-esteem.
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True, but someone has to decide what to put in the official vp and generally things that look too different aren't accepted.
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Give me a few days, and I'll have a subspace mesh. :nod: I wanna do something constructive for the community.
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Originally posted by ChronoReverse
True, but someone has to decide what to put in the official vp and generally things that look too different aren't accepted.
There's a world of difference between deciding what ends up in an 'official media vp' and say "NO DO NOT DO THIS! IT IS NOT IN THE SPIRIT OF TEH FREESPACE!!!!!!111!1!11111 I DO NOT LIEK IT SUR!!11!". We get precious little of the former and a metric asston of the latter.
It doesn't take more than a few minutes slogging through the history of the SCP forum, or even the FS Modding forum to find examples of people getting abused for suggesting deviations from stock FS.
Its pathetic. Its like now that everyone has the source and has the opportunity to do things with it, they've all forgotten everything they ever wrote into an FS2 and FS3 wishlist.
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Eh? Who was going like that? I see some people stating they don't like the idea of change or that it shouldn't be changed, but I don't see any abuse going on...
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I'm not referring to JUST this thread. I'm referring to a multitude over the history of the SCP. The responses in this thread just sort of annoyed me to the point of *****ing about it.
Let me repeat the pertinent part of my post that you seem to have missed:
Originally posted by mikhael
It doesn't take more than a few minutes slogging through the history of the SCP forum, or even the FS Modding forum to find examples of people getting abused for suggesting deviations from stock FS.
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I see.
But pertaining to this particular thread, it would still be a better idea to improve subspace in a manner that doesn't change it too much. Those pictures of the swirly tunnels fall within the reasonable if they could be done.
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Originally posted by Antares
Would it be possible to replace this darkness with another image? Or, to add a lightning-like "flashing" effect that would flicker every so often, to illuminate the darkened region?
I'm envisioning fighters traveling through subspace, engaged in a battle of some kind. The swirling walls rotate around them, spinning and spinning, but beyond the subspace barrier, there's something else. Something briefly lit up by each flash of light... or bathed in low, red, constant illumination:
Silhouettes of Shivan craft. Battleships. Destroyers. An armada of shadows, within sight, and yet out of reach. Drifting. Waiting.
Watching. :nervous:
I don't think it'd be appropriate for most subspace missions, but as an available option... oh God yes. Would there be some way to allow you to put ships behind the background in order to do this? Or would you have to build it into the background?
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Originally posted by ChronoReverse
I see.
But pertaining to this particular thread, it would still be a better idea to improve subspace in a manner that doesn't change it too much. Those pictures of the swirly tunnels fall within the reasonable if they could be done.
You'll find I advocated nothing else with respect to the subspace tunnel.
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Whether or not the improvement looks much like the original subspace won't really matter, because only mods and the FSPort will be using the improvement. Even if it were flying cows, you could play through the main FS2 campaign without noticing anything different.
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Originally posted by Antares
I'm envisioning fighters traveling through subspace, engaged in a battle of some kind. The swirling walls rotate around them, spinning and spinning, but beyond the subspace barrier, there's something else. Something briefly lit up by each flash of light... or bathed in low, red, constant illumination:
Silhouettes of Shivan craft. Battleships. Destroyers. An armada of shadows, within sight, and yet out of reach. Drifting. Waiting.
Watching. :nervous:
The classic designs can be seen, the black outline of Sathani, Cains, and perhaps Lucifers against the lighter background.
Along with other craft that dwarf anything previously seen in the Shivan fleet...
that would be creepy! :shaking:
that also sounds great for a campaign. somethin like the final incursion by the Shivans.
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About the node ani, I don't have much pb with it, at least, it sure looks better than the Babylon5 one :p
But for the corridor, I have no problem with a complete redesign, coz you can say whatever you want, the only though V put into it was using a photoshop cloud layer and put the tint to blue. Well at least it tiles, so I guess I shouldn't complain too much :doubt:
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I'm all for it, and highter res maps too. Has everyone forgotten about Homesick already? :)
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dunno whats wrong with the current subspace. the wishy washy feeling makes it look nice (at least, IMO) and it serves its purpose.
A better warp.pof would be nice, but nothing something that causes too much of a slowdown please :)
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There's nothing really wrong, but that's the kind of thing that can really be made to look super :)
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I disagree. The res of the textures is wrong. I mean, look at Thunder's pic. Yuck.
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slowdowns? uh...as said, what difference would another 1500 polys make in a subspace mission, not a whole lot I guess, and if you got a halfway decent vidcard (GeForceFX5200Ultra) even an older machine (PII/466Mhz) is perfectly capable of running FS2_Open @1024x768 without too much stuttering...(I know coz I am).
OT. I would also like to see some alternative warps...and now that I got PSP again, might even create a couple myself...no need to create a new warp.pof, I think a lot already can be done giving it just a new ani....same goes for subspace, new textures and perhaps an additional subobject for extra rotation, or one that is curved instead of just an elongated ellips, so the end of the 'tunnel' would not always be in the center (if flying straight)
Re: getting *****ed for wanting to deviate from canon...
Yes, there seems indeed to be a bit of 'coming down' having taken place in the past on canondeviants...
soooo...making myself a target...when are we going to see some actual improvements to FS2_Open? (ducking and running)...now don''t get all excited and steamed up...:) what I mean is...when will engine and scripting features be extended? In the beginning there was a lot of talk on FDL how a lot of things with regards to Alpha-1 could not be scripted with sexp's, such as landing on a surface, or returning to base by docking with the ship you are stationed on, flying in formation, gravitational influence, blackouts
experienced fredders will know what things I refer to...there's stil lots of stuf that could be improved here that does not put all emphasis on visual gadgetry...ooooh I wish I could program in C...
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A lot of that stuff has been fixed. Alpha 1 can be referred to by most sexps now, and there's an end-mission sexp. Dunno what you mean by landing on a surface - that's a mod issue, and still a WIP (Pimp :D (http://www.sectorgame.com/forum/ikonboard.cgi?s=407ba5522660ffff;act=ST;f=11;t=827)). There's also a bunch of new sexpsand the like. Blackouts and gravity hasn't been tried yet, and I doubt they will (proper gravity especially) as this'd pretty much require fundamental changes to the engine, whereas graphical stuff is really more of an upgrade or addition. Buuut, this is a subspace thread, so perhaps a dedicated new topic, or a trip to the wiki or SCP readme is in order (I actually don;t know where this info is to be found to be honest, so I'm kind of just guessing on those last two).
BTW - you're an experienced FREDder? Are you a busy experienced FREDder? Coz if not, TI always has a place :D
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[scp][/scp]
JarC, check that link.
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Originally posted by kasperl
[scp][/scp]
JarC, check that link.
Those are some really good tags. ;)
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Can we make it so that if a fighter breaks off and tries to go through the tunnel wall it explodes?
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isn't the tunnel wall at an infinte distant point or something?
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It's certainly outside the flyable area (deliberately)... I'm not entirely sure if that's deliberate or not - but certainly you could give the walls a "planet" value so that the closer you get, the more damage you take. Of course you'd have to shrink the model so that you could get anywhere near the walls....
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it'd be cool to be torn apart by subspace stresses at the edges. perhaps usefull for newly discovered/unstable nodes?
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um, it's a background model, there is no "closer", the model is something like 100 meters wide
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oh, crap.
you could do something in FRED that when the player goes out behond a certain nav pointed boundary he get's damaged......
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It could be coded that for any instance the "subspace.pof" model is loaded into mission, it's automatically coded that a new set of mission boundrys are created.. you can't fly outside them or you start to take damage from subspace stress? It'd basically apply damage on approach to the boundry... can't be that hard?
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why bother?
lay a line of invisible textured, untargetable ships with don't collide invisble on in the middle of the node, then use some distance SEXP and a give damage SEXP. issue solved.
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I vote aye. Subspace, indeed, needs an overhaul and I think those 2 pictures Kalifreth posted fit the description perfectly.
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@Black Wolf:
Me a FREDer, I wish...! never been able to use it, can start it alright, just don't understand it's mechanisms...but when the FDL was still active, there was a lot of discussion going on about the things I mentioned and lots more...there's a wealth of 'wishes' in their...(@ ml.warpcore.org/fdl/ ) so I basically just drew from memory what things folks wanted added back then...to me it looks as if in the past 2yrs there's only been attention for visual stuff, which in itself is good ofcourse, but not the only area of possible improvement...was just curious what the status was on this...
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Originally posted by JarC
...to me it looks as if in the past 2yrs there's only been attention for visual stuff, which in itself is good ofcourse, but not the only area of possible improvement...was just curious what the status was on this...
I've been meaning to say something along those lines for ages:nod:
Coders, what is the current release date for 3.6? I have a host of *gulp* turret related points that I really would like to draw some attension to.
And yes, subspace could do with an overhaul.;)
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
Dunno what you mean by landing on a surface - that's a mod issue, and still a WIP (Pimp :D (http://www.sectorgame.com/forum/ikonboard.cgi?s=407ba5522660ffff;act=ST;f=11;t=827))
O my gawd :eek2: that looks GREAT!!!
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LOL Thanks :) It's still a WIP, but I have a few ideas in motion about it ;)
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Double post, I know, but I was playing about with rendering, and I got a sort of Subspace effect by accident. It doesn't 'loop' properly like an animation yet, and I didn't realise the texture is tiled 3 times across the subspace model, but it gives a very rough idea of what I had in mind. It's also too big ;)
Please note : This does NOT look good, partly because of the non-looping render and partly because of the way the Subspace thing is drawn, I think, its just an idea, that's all :)
http://www.aqsx85.dsl.pipex.com/SSpace.zip
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I Vote yes because I know that this community can do anything it wants if it puts its software to it. New is always Better! We can make a luminous Subspace without the ugly black spots and visible corners! WE CAN DO ANYTHING
(download my beams and engine glows, and look for my hi-res textures!)
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Originally posted by Raa Tor'h
Give me a few days, and I'll have a subspace mesh. :nod: I wanna do something constructive for the community.
Playing in subspace for the first time, always made me somewhat queezyish if you get what I mean. It seems like you aren't moving at all, and it's really confusing.
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Originally posted by adwight
Playing in subspace for the first time, always made me somewhat queezyish if you get what I mean. It seems like you aren't moving at all, and it's really confusing.
Ditto :wtf:
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Yes, it is a little disorienting. :nod: But it's still fun. :)
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Originally posted by adwight
Playing in subspace for the first time, always made me somewhat queezyish if you get what I mean. It seems like you aren't moving at all, and it's really confusing.
That's the point. When you are in subspace, you are in a spacial dimension with laws that are very different from your own. I would think that would be a disorienting experience.
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It is really confusing and easy to lose your bearings, though that is very much the point. And besides, it needs to look like you're not moving; according to FS canon, a ship will exit from the other side of a subspace node after it enters regardless, short of one of two things happening. To not exit subspace, the ship must either be destroyed or the node itself collapse. Ignore Derelict for the purposes of this argument; it wasn't accurate in a lot of ways.
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With respect to the non-moving thing, I think you'll find that was more a case of life emulating graphics than anything else. i.e., 'we can't make it look 'moving' in game, someone think up some technobabble to cover that?'
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Originally posted by kasperl
why bother?
lay a line of invisible textured, untargetable ships with don't collide invisble on in the middle of the node, then use some distance SEXP and a give damage SEXP. issue solved.
Or use waypoints.
Though coding in an option for maximum-distance-from-center-before-taking-damage shouldn't be too difficult, especially with the engine wash and "planet" code.
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there is a distance from line function, it would be simplistic, probly
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Originally posted by Flipside
With respect to the non-moving thing, I think you'll find that was more a case of life emulating graphics than anything else. i.e., 'we can't make it look 'moving' in game, someone think up some technobabble to cover that?'
probably, but since we can't either, I guess that that technobabble, we have to keep it :p
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Personally I would not want to sustain damage from bumping into the subspace wall (if ever possible) since that feels even more out of place.
OT. does someone have a subspace mission lying around to test with? I've tried my hands at FRED2 on the lucifer mission but can't get it working, FRED always dies when saving...
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Have you tried playing it in game anyway? My copy of FRED2 also crashes when saving but I can still play fine in game (which is how I got that image).
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tried but the file seems corrupted (there's binary gunk in it)....waaaiit a minute...wasn't there something with a palette thingy you had to put somewhere? This crashing with subspace missions seems to trigger a faint memory that there was a workaround for it....although I rather spent my time on experimenting with textures and animation than tryin to get FRED to run properly
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I've got the mesh in the works... I'll check back in later
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When I played FS1 and got into the subspace, my computer had a coronary. It couldn't deal with the subspace model along with the big booty lucifer, plus the other ships. My framerate bottomed out. Made me dizzy, too. That wouldn't happen now, though :)
One thing I didn't understand, though, is how you could go turn around in subspace. I would think you can only go in one direction once you enter subspace. But in that mission you could turn around, do loop'de'loops... anything.
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Originally posted by JarC
Personally I would not want to sustain damage from bumping into the subspace wall (if ever possible) since that feels even more out of place.
OT. does someone have a subspace mission lying around to test with? I've tried my hands at FRED2 on the lucifer mission but can't get it working, FRED always dies when saving...
A) Don't think that was ever possible ;)
B) Just check the "In Subspace" (or something like it) in the background editor in FRED2.
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Originally posted by JarC
tried but the file seems corrupted (there's binary gunk in it)....waaaiit a minute...wasn't there something with a palette thingy you had to put somewhere? This crashing with subspace missions seems to trigger a faint memory that there was a workaround for it....although I rather spent my time on experimenting with textures and animation than tryin to get FRED to run properly
There was a work-around indeed. In FS2 Retail you needed to have a file called gamepalette-subspace.pcx (any PCX renamed would do).
AFAIK that bug was fixed in FRED2_Open but if you suspect it has spontainiously regenerated itself that's what you need to do :D
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Originally posted by karajorma
There was a work-around indeed. In FS2 Retail you needed to have a file called gamepalette-subspace.pcx (any PCX renamed would do).
You're a lifesaver! That was it! Fred2_Open shouldnt have it?
I got Kazan's last release and it indeed still has this problem (besides the other known ones)...wtf!? well prolly not important enough to fix, at least the file is not corrupted ...just glad I remembered...
eeegad! I'd almost forget this is the vFX-enhanced open version...that is one ugly sun of a biatch of a subspace model...
biggest problem is severe faceting, showing as a clearly visible line around the hud...the texture gets mapped cylindrical? along the long axis, which produces a very clear line along the length of the model...so any new texture MUST be tileable in at least one direction...
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I remember reading somewhere that the bug had been fixed and FRED no longer required that file. I could of course be wrong. :)
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as for issues with Kazan's build, he kind of fubared the HTL switch. now, you have to run the -fredhtl command line to get the NO HT&L mode, standard, it runs in HT&L, which is rather buggy.
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Originally posted by Kalfireth
Subspace is akin to "lightspeed" in Star Wars or "Warp" in Star Trek
The correct term for the SW version is "hyperspace".
Subspace looks like this:
http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=450740
Ugly, ugly picture! Turn the ambient lighting up!:ick:
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1: Don't care.
2: See above, I was showing off subspace - not the ships :p
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Ok. Alot of talk, with little results.
I made the polies alot less visible, but without new maps, it's doomed to look Horrid.
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Oops. Forgot the files.
Also, 'Kalfireth', the reason Fred crashes for you is because you're missing the subspace game pallette. I included it in this zip file for everyone. Though I'm sure it's available in atleast three other places.
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that model, Raa: can you post a screen of it untextured? and does it rotate?
It gives me a horrible idea. ;)
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Hmmmm.... Is it me, or does the SCP load PCX's from VP's in preference to .ANI's from the maps folder? I created a Noise01.ani for this but FS2 refuses to see it....wierd!
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wow, that picture made me dizzy.
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The game makes it rotate itself. It has no pof data, but one rotates within the other...
This is just a simple 'chube'. I took it and tapered it, and this is how the chube looks now. (I like typing with an accent, sue me.)
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Originally posted by mikhael
that model, Raa: can you post a screen of it untextured? and does it rotate?
It gives me a horrible idea. ;)
See, if we made each model that the game makes rotate to have a rotating BG subsystem... ;)
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You wanna have a more than 2 levels? I dunno if that'd work... Worth a try though.
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Is Subspace supposed to go backward? It's been so long since I played FS1! Also, a Noise01.pcx will replace the texture, but a Noise01.ani won't for some reason :(
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so how many polys is that, Raa?
This is all leading up to something. ;)
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Heh, I decided to play it safe and up it from 125 to 470-something... and my FPS weren't hit at all. It stayed at 60 the whole time, it's just the screenshot function takes alot of performance...
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Something really needs to be done with the "ends" of subspace. That terminus doesn't look at all good, though it's probably no different from :V:'s method. Maybe leave a hole at the end?
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Just put a sun there, that's what V did...
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I liked the original one, too. My only problem was that the texture looked blurry.
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How about something like this:
(http://home.nc.rr.com/mikhael/subspace.jpg)
Rotate it slightly off the main axis. The twist keeps the terminal points of subspace out of sight. It also allows subspace to occlude itself, which can only help lend a stomach-lurching quality to it. If you give it a partially transparent map, with a couple of surrounding simple cylinders with odd effects on them, you can add the requisite parallax effects. :)
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mmh, that could be spiffy :)
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Originally posted by mikhael
How about something like this:
(http://home.nc.rr.com/mikhael/subspace.jpg)
Rotate it slightly off the main axis. The twist keeps the terminal points of subspace out of sight. It also allows subspace to occlude itself, which can only help lend a stomach-lurching quality to it. If you give it a partially transparent map, with a couple of surrounding simple cylinders with odd effects on them, you can add the requisite parallax effects. :)
I support the straight one. Crvy subspace tunnel?
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I like Mik's model :)
Could we have a in-game capable version of that? :D
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
I like Mik's model :)
...
Yeah, model's good, but the aesthetics ..
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Well, I could get an ANI together, where it not for the fact that FS2 has to load static images before animations :(
Hmmm.... off to try something :)
Hmmm... Crossed a bridge.... found a cliff.
I changed the name of the texture using Modelview to an ANI file I'd created. It only displays the first frame :( So it's static images only I'm afraid.
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Originally posted by mikhael
How about something like this:
(http://home.nc.rr.com/mikhael/subspace.jpg)
Rotate it slightly off the main axis. The twist keeps the terminal points of subspace out of sight. It also allows subspace to occlude itself, which can only help lend a stomach-lurching quality to it. If you give it a partially transparent map, with a couple of surrounding simple cylinders with odd effects on them, you can add the requisite parallax effects. :)
Intresting, but since you don't travel from one end of the model to the other, but instead the model travels with you, it won't be very convincing.
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the model would spin, and the map is scrolling, the effect should be the same, save for the vortex look. Thing is, it's transparent, so I wonder how it'd actually look like ingame.
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Originally posted by Nico
the model would spin, and the map is scrolling, the effect should be the same, save for the vortex look. Thing is, it's transparent, so I wonder how it'd actually look like ingame.
As far as I know, only one way to find out :)
I think that model should be tried out, just to see how it looks and works in game.
*waits patiently for screenies* ;)
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My thinking on this is that the mesh rotates around the player on the long axis. You don't actually travel down the model, per se. The maps on the mesh are animated and flow 'back' along the lenght of the tunnel, giving the appearance of movement.
And if you want an explanation of why a fighter can manuever in subspace, I say its because they're actually in a bubble of normal space that's flowing through the subspace tunnel. Does it make sense? No. Does it fit what we see at the end of FS1? absolutely. :)
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Grab my cheesy subspace model. (http://home.nc.rr.com/mikhael/subspace.3ds)
Its in 3ds format, and its rough as hell. See what you can do with it. Most of all, have fun.
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I'll have it i ngame tomorrow night, if you wish...
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Hmmm...I wanna see Mik's model in action. One thing though...:V: tried to propose the effect of "moving" in the subspace tunnel...and to me, undoubtedly a few others, the subspace missions make you feel like you're not moving at all.
It's like, you punch your burners...but you don't seem to get very far and the only reason that you know you're moving is because your targets get closer. The subspace actually makes you feel...slower. I'm not sure what actually causes the effect, but I'm sure we want to get rid of that. :blah:
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I actually thought that it was a very cool effect :(
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Originally posted by AqueousShadow
Hmmm...I wanna see Mik's model in action. One thing though...:V: tried to propose the effect of "moving" in the subspace tunnel...and to me, undoubtedly a few others, the subspace missions make you feel like you're not moving at all.
It's like, you punch your burners...but you don't seem to get very far and the only reason that you know you're moving is because your targets get closer. The subspace actually makes you feel...slower. I'm not sure what actually causes the effect, but I'm sure we want to get rid of that. :blah:
thats because theres almost no reference because the debris blends in with the backround. If you wanted to get the feeling of subspace ripping past you, you would have to make an animated tex :P
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Originally posted by AqueousShadow
Hmmm...I wanna see Mik's model in action. One thing though...:V: tried to propose the effect of "moving" in the subspace tunnel...and to me, undoubtedly a few others, the subspace missions make you feel like you're not moving at all.
It's like, you punch your burners...but you don't seem to get very far and the only reason that you know you're moving is because your targets get closer. The subspace actually makes you feel...slower. I'm not sure what actually causes the effect, but I'm sure we want to get rid of that. :blah:
I liked that effect. Made it feel like you were in subspace, rather than normal space with a weird blue spinny thing around it.
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It's really a good use of irony, subspace seems slower, when in fact it is a million times faster that anything in normal space.
BTW, a tactical jump, as seen in Inferno, should be near-instantaneous. Given the nature of subspace.
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Originally posted by ChronoReverse
I actually thought that it was a very cool effect :(
Me to, felt like falling.
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Something weird with Raa Tor'h's subspace model; Subspace is going backwards and suns don't appear. I know because I tried using it on a subspace mission I'm working on; it's going the opposite direction to the old model and where used to be a sun, there now is none.
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There's never been a sun, you have to add them manually at each end of the tunnel.
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Yes, I know. What I'm saying is with the old subspace model you could see the sun (yes, it was manually added) but with Raa Tor'h's model it's just not there. Also it doesn't emit any light, even though it is there in FRED.
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Raa, could you convert mik's model for in-game use? :)
I'd definately make a non-blurry texture for it if it looks good :D
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I see what the problem was... I'll fix mine, and make up Mikhael's version next...
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I like the curvy model, but like it was mentioned before, it doesn't feel like you're moving forwards or backwards.
If it's possible, have a starfield outside rotating "drums" that warps based on your velocity. Say if you're sitting still, the stars look normal, if you're using afterburners, have em look like Star Trek stars.
Also I think it'd be cool if the ambient light sorta went from white to blue and back, since most of the subspace skins are blue and white...
and and and have lightning sparks between the innermost two drums :D
most of this probably isn't feasible tho :(
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Bad news all. Mik's subspace is a no go. Heres why:
First, you have to know how the subspace system works; 2 pof files are used, subspace_big and subspace_small. Subspace_big is the light blue one that rotates on the outside. While both models' textures are 'pulled' along the z-axis in game, only subspace_big actually rotates. Also, the textures are transparent, so Mik's mesh makes subspace look like.. well, this:
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oh, poop :sigh:
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Funky...
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i made some hi-res subspace maps, if anyone can give me somewhere to put them, i'll e-mail them to you.
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Nice. I'm really interested.
Bad thing bout mik's model, though :(
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Hmmmmmmm... Well, there no reason the model even has to be that shape as far as I can see. You could make a cylinder round the outside, which is stationary, and put any shape you like inside it, as long as it can rotate within the cylinder? You would at the very least get an interesting cyclone effect ;)
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But as its transparent you can see the outer edges and other bad stuff as you can see on Raa's screenie.
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Hmmmmmmmm... I thought that was just intersecting polys between the inner and outer models, If you made the outer object big enough to encompass the inner model and it's rotation area, I'm actually not sure what it would look like.
If I can be bothered tomorrow I'll make it and take a look :D
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It doesn't matter what size the model is, the game resizes it. The actual pof size is 25x25x334. That's not big enough for how it's used anyway.
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Originally posted by Carl
i made some hi-res subspace maps, if anyone can give me somewhere to put them, i'll e-mail them to you.
...any takers?
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Doesn't jdtcagle usually volunteer to host these sorts of things?
And if not, can you put it on swooh? :p
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don't have the patience to register at swooh, wait for a response ect. i'll wait for jdtcagle or anyone else.
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Actually, I kinda like the way it looks, but I can see why its most people wouldn't.
Ah well.
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Originally posted by Carl
i made some hi-res subspace maps, if anyone can give me somewhere to put them, i'll e-mail them to you.
I won't be able to post 'em, but can you e-mail them to me anyway? I'm interested to see how it looks. E-mail addy is in profile.. would post it, but I'm paranoid about it getting all over the net and sending me pr0n.. :shaking:
Thanks, Carl. :nod:
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Originally posted by Ulala
E-mail addy is in profile..
no it isn't.
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Carl? My 3dap.com account. :)
As for the transparency of the model... doesn't the way the game always positions the model around the player's POV mean that we could actually trim away everything on the POF except for what we have direct line-of-sight on, and the player would never see the difference? So basically it'd SEEM like the tunnel twists and turns beyond our vision, but since the player can never reposition his POV relative to the tunnel model, he'll never be able to actually see "around the corner" to know that the model actually ends right where his LOS on it does.
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Good call sandwich. That would actually work perfectly, provided you get a good approximation of the edges of the visable model. I'd suggest doubling the number of sides around the diameter too, but that's a minor thing.
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Originally posted by Sandwich
Carl? My 3dap.com account. :)
post email address. i e-mail to you it.
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I'm not gonna post my email for all the world to spam. Extrapolate from my username and the 3dap.com part - that's it. :)
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Or send it to ed.xmg@10deepsthgil (if you read it the wrong way round)
:D
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Originally posted by Carl
no it isn't.
Ehhh.... that's odd. My bad. :nervous: :blah:
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Originally posted by Rah Tor'h
Ok. Alot of talk, with little results.
I made the polies alot less visible, but without new maps, it's doomed to look Horrid.
That one doesn't look bad itself. Definitely more to subspace than in the original Freespace 1 model.
Originally posted by Liberator
It's really a good use of irony, subspace seems slower, when in fact it is a million times faster that anything in normal space.
BTW, a tactical jump, as seen in Inferno, should be near-instantaneous. Given the nature of subspace.
Yes indeed. Did anyone ever play that old campaign Boomerang? During the second mission they had a ship jump out and jump back in again without that funny character trick.
Originally posted by Rah Tor'h
Bad news all. Mik's subspace is a no go. Heres why:
First, you have to know how the subspace system works; 2 pof files are used, subspace_big and subspace_small. Subspace_big is the light blue one that rotates on the outside. While both models' textures are 'pulled' along the z-axis in game, only subspace_big actually rotates. Also, the textures are transparent, so Mik's mesh makes subspace look like.. well, this:
Is that necessarily bad? It looks cool in that picture. I guess you have to see it in motion to see the bad stuff, no?
Originally posted by mikhael
Actually, I kinda like the way it looks, but I can see why its most people wouldn't.
Ah well.
It looks sort of cool really.
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Originally posted by Vanguard
Yes indeed. Did anyone ever play that old campaign Boomerang? During the second mission they had a ship jump out and jump back in again without that funny character trick.
I learnt a lot from opening up that mission. The same trick can be used to make a ship enter a docking bay and then leave it later.
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Originally posted by Vanguard
Yes indeed. Did anyone ever play that old campaign Boomerang? During the second mission they had a ship jump out and jump back in again without that funny character trick.
There's an extra space between the SCv and Ima for one of them instead of using the special character trick.
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Originally posted by Carl
don't have the patience to register at swooh, wait for a response ect. i'll wait for jdtcagle or anyone else.
Swooh is fixed, everything works great now.:nod:
Send to me at: [email protected]
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Has swooh been working bad?
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Was, but now nobody seems to know that its fixed:)
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I uploaded at least six files onto swooh this week, but I didn't notice anything.
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it's actually been up for about 3 weeks, but nobody realized it, I guess...
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Well, pictures from me prove that swooh works, and worked, as far as I know :doubt:
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Post it to someone for gawds sake! ;) hehehehe
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lookee here, Raa Tor'h his model with existing textures, nbackblue01.tga from one of the media vp and the cloakmap.
(http://freespace.kicks-ass.net/_images/fs/subspace1.jpg)
edit: image replaced, thanks to AqueousShadow, had started without the launcher and forgotten I cleared the commandline registrykey... :o looks much better now
I think I figured what is weird with the subspace effect...the fact it is going straight...it should be curbed, but because the game makes the textures transparant...you'd see the bending thru the wall of the pof...and since the sense of motion is done by the moving textures, the only influence we really have lies in the pattern of the texture...
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Mmmm, much better. Not quite as good as I imagine it could be (new txtures would be welcome), but still a huge improvement over the vanilla FS2 one.
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now put that tex on mik's model...
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Wow...that looks really nice actually. I like it :D Maybe a different type of subspace. Hmm...it reminds me of that one "hyperspace" or whatnot in Star Wars...one of those in the Rebel Assault 2 cutscenes I believe...
Originally posted by JarC
what puzzles me is the terrible colorbanding...the original texture does not have it...what is also weird is that if you place a tga file in the maps folder, fs_open reverts to the pcx in the vp file...
Do you have the -pcxtga flag on in the FSO launcher? I'm not sure if that's the exact name for it, but there should be one of those flags for converting tgas or something. It might be one of those slowdown flags, though. I'm going home today...need to recheck my performance and fiddle with the flags for awhile...
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Originally posted by AqueousShadow
Do you have the -pcxtga flag on in the FSO launcher?
:o thnx for the reminder. edited msg accordingly...img replaced
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How are these images? They're both perfectly tileable.
EDIT: Oops... see next post. :p
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Oops. Small tiling bug fixed in the first one. Reload. ;)
(http://www.brainzipper.com/fs2/images/subspace_01a.jpg)
(http://www.brainzipper.com/fs2/images/subspace_01b.jpg)
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Originally posted by JarC
(http://www.dsv.nl/~raj/subspace.jpg)
Hmmm, Change the hue for blue to red, darken consdierably, and you'd have the B5 Hyperspace effect:D
Don't suppose one could use Miks model for the OUTSIDE section, which AFAIK, is the rotating one.
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Something like Mik's model and these new textures could be used for a good B5 hyperspace effect.
I like the colors of these new textures, and how there's no longer black in the effect since that always looked a little too weird to me, but as opposed to the lightening bolts I'd rather see something to get the "circely" look of Volition's subspace.
Using parts of Mik's model or something like it for the outside, rotating, section would be a great idea as it'd make the outside of the subspace corridor seem more chaotic.
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I'll upload Mik's pof file if anyone wants, but I'm not fond of the way it really looked rotating.
I will, however, try sandwich's textures.
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Originally posted by Sandwich
Oops. Small tiling bug fixed in the first one. Reload. ;)
http://www.brainzipper.com/fs2/images/subspace_01a.jpg
http://www.brainzipper.com/fs2/images/subspace_01b.jpg
yeah, but mine are more true to the original ones.
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Shivan variety
(http://freespace.kicks-ass.net/_images/fs/subspace2.jpg)
Sandwich's variety
(http://freespace.kicks-ass.net/_images/fs/subspace3.jpg)
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lotsa black squares.
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yeah, dunno what these ares, keep seeing them flying by...probably some star glitch? yep, definitly a glitch, it's stars...should probably have set them to zero in the misson...was just a quick throwtogether...ok that's odd, I changed $num stars to 0 and I keep seeing them wizz by?
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Do the textures move at all, does the model rotate or is it just static?
I love the Shivan one, though the blue-green in the second pic makes it come off as too bright and colourful. Replace it with a darker texture and it will be better, IMHO. The "lighting" texture is excellent though.
Also, notice how the blue-green texture is such that the "streaks" are horizontal along the inner perimiter of the pof. If you simply reversed the direction of the texture by 90 degrees, they would be facing the other way and would thus give off the effect of "speed streaks" like you see in cartoons. That would maybe create the impression of movement, or at least speed.
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Carls Subspace Maps (http://swooh.com/peon/jdjtcagle/subspace.zip)
Here they are :)
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Originally posted by Carl
lotsa black squares.
I know what those are. That's the little tweakage the SCP team did to show particles. Remember how out of nowhere, one build suddenly had alot more space debris particles? They were on little black planes like that.
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Originally posted by Rictor
Do the textures move at all, does the model rotate or is it just static?
Subspace has 2 pofs. One rotates, the other stays static. And on both, the tetures move. They are run along the z (?) axis of the UV mapping.
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Has anyone tried animating the texture maps (i.e. so they oscillate or whatnot)?
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IS that even possible, I mean animated textures? I'm not up on the latest SCP achievements.
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yeah
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Cool, then you could have the speed streaks that I described. I mean, if the textures move along the z axis anyways, just flip the 2nd (green-blue) texture that Sandwich provided and you've got the sense of movement. That is, if anybody wants to have that..
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Flipside tried animated textures, he said it didn't work.
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Originally posted by Rictor
just flip the 2nd (green-blue) texture that Sandwich provided and you've got the sense of movement. That is, if anybody wants to have that..
tried that, didn't look half as nice...
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Originally posted by Antares
Keep the visible portions of subspace--the blue "walls". Maybe change the color, but that might offend the purists, so put that aside, for now. I want to address the dark "gaps" between the subspace wall itself.
Would it be possible to replace this darkness with another image? Or, to add a lightning-like "flashing" effect that would flicker every so often, to illuminate the darkened region?
I'm envisioning fighters traveling through subspace, engaged in a battle of some kind. The swirling walls rotate around them, spinning and spinning, but beyond the subspace barrier, there's something else. Something briefly lit up by each flash of light... or bathed in low, red, constant illumination:
Silhouettes of Shivan craft. Battleships. Destroyers. An armada of shadows, within sight, and yet out of reach. Drifting. Waiting.
Watching. :nervous:
The classic designs can be seen, the black outline of Sathani, Cains, and perhaps Lucifers against the lighter background.
Along with other craft that dwarf anything previously seen in the Shivan fleet...
I'd like to to see something like this, especially in the later portions of any future campaigns as the Aliance get's it's collective butt kicked and then saved in the nick of time by a fluke.
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Originally posted by JarC
:o thnx for the reminder. edited msg accordingly...img replaced
NP! Although...it was actually -jpgtga... but oh well. At least you got it to work. Still lookin' nice...
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Sandwich's makes it difficult to see any directives or text. It's too bright. I prefer Carl's, although the blue is a bit sporadic compared to the original (too much black).
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If you use an ANI, it seems to only use the first frame of it, at least, that's what it did for me :(
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Try using some of Lightspeed's Nebulae, their cool!:) The same tiling issue come up though. We need a model with one texture that runs the length of it, or textures with good alpha blending so the tiling doesn't become an issue.
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Or a good tiling image
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Originally posted by JarC
..
Sandwich's variety
http://freespace.kicks-ass.net/_images/fs/subspace3.jpg
This is the best of all, in my opinion. I find the first image(on this page) a bit too bright, the red subspace is unusual. This cyan subspace looks appropriate. However, it is still not out of the world.
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I think it's generally been accepted that subspace is a blue tunnel with white/blue lightning. The lightning in that (subspace3.jpg) image is spot on - the tunnel outer wall looks a little dodgy?
Edit:
As a thought, Bob was talking about motion blur... perhaps we could work out something impressive with motion blur, glowmaps and what have you applied?
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I suggest using Lightspeed's dark blue nebula images as the background texture, and keeping the "lighting" one in the foreground. That should make it a bit darker and also more true to the original.
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I can adjust the colorization of the cyan BG to be darker and more blue if that's what people want. :)
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How's this?
(http://www.brainzipper.com/fs2/images/subspace_01b2.jpg)
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I think it was used with water.... I like it :)
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much, much better sandwich. now lets see it in-game :)
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doesnt look all too subspacey.
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I think it should look fine, once it's in as the second layer. I actually sort of liked the teal, moreso than the teal afterburners. If people are willing to have that change made, I can't see how this would be any worse.
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I can do pretty much anything you guys want in Photoshop, as long as it's not anything like what Greg Martin does. :p Just say the word. ;)
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http://freespace.kicks-ass.net/_images/fs/subspace3.jpg
:lol: @ the URL
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Please, don't try to make a whole new look, Just give it more features and Hi Res Textures. :)
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I just had a cool idea. You could animate the lighting texture to actually arc and twist like real lightning. Then, you slap on the animated texture and you get something like the effect in B5 hyperspace. I don't know becuase I haven't seen it, but it seems to me that it would look funky to have a static lightning texture that just moves along the z axis. If animating it is too much work, then you could just make several similar lightning textures (or just flip+modify slight the existing one) and just have them static for a few frame then a new one comes along.
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Yea...I'm thinking it'd be kinda odd animated, and a royal pain the ass. Isn't the thing still supposed to be spinning? Or did I get something wrong here...:nervous:
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Originally posted by jdjtcagle
Please, don't try to make a whole new look, Just give it more features and Hi Res Textures. :)
that's what mine are, minus the features part.
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I think any lightning should be scarce. For some reason I don't think lightning fits subspace, at least not as its seen in the nebulas. Basically, I don't think it should be violent looking. Then it's overkill.
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Load the Speeder3k visualization into Winamp 5's AVS(it come's with it) and that's a pretty good idea of what the lightning and flashes in Subspace should look like.
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I think it'd be good if you could choose to have the nebula-style angry lightning for an unstable node, but for a stable one the angry lightning doesn't quite fit. Could it be made an option or something?
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That's not a bad idea. Maybe have it adjustable in FRED2 like the nebulas.
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Originally posted by Carl
that's what mine are, minus the features part.
I know, I just see them makeing different styles, which scared me alittle:p
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Originally posted by JarC
Sandwich's variety
(http://freespace.kicks-ass.net/_images/fs/subspace3.jpg)
Thanks, that's just what I needed. Welcome to the highlights, all of you. :)
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Just wait till I have my fixed pof file uploaded...
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That looks so beautiful... :eek:
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Think so?
I prefer stock FS2 one. These look too 'messy' - I'll try to get the effect I had in mind to work one of these days :)
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Yes, I think so. I believe that the Sandwich Variant is great.
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I'm with Lightspeed on this. I love the foreground texture, and wouldn't change that unless someone pulls off a better one, but the background greenish texture is bothersome. As Lightspeed said, it looks too messy. The whole deal is still better than the vanilla one, thats for sure.
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I'm getting the most amazing sense of deja vu from this thread.
Haven't replacement subspace textures and a fixed background POF been available for years?
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Originally posted by jdjtcagle
I just see them makeing different styles, which scared me alittle:p
you know the saying, pictures say more than words...that's why I only posted the pics, not the textures...
Originally posted by ZylonBane
Haven't replacement subspace textures and a fixed background POF been available for years?
(http://forum.ftd.nu/images/smilies/worshippy.gif) please, let us normal beings share in your wisdom...
k, here the last 3 screenies, and I'm going to call this a bug, coz I can not get rid of that blocked spacedust flyin by, I tried just about every build I could find, Kazan's, Bobbeau's, Taylor's, they all show it, mission specifies 0 stars, if that's what you're thinkin
Sandwich's texture on both layers with one layer rotated 90 degrees.
(lightning doesn't combine well with this one)
edit: after an evening worth of experimenting, I must admit that this is my personal favorite sofar. The image simply just does not do justice to the effect...close second the one below this one
(http://freespace.kicks-ass.net/_images/fs/subspace4.jpg)
Again Sandwich's texture used on a single layer and the texture rotated 90 degress
(http://freespace.kicks-ass.net/_images/fs/subspace4a.jpg)
and a slightly darker version of my first one (reuses already existing textures).
(http://freespace.kicks-ass.net/_images/fs/subspace5.jpg)
here's some notes on the subspace pof.
the outer layer rotates anti-clockwise and is the layer on which the texture (noise01) slowly rotates
the inner layer rotates clock-wise and is the layer on which the texture (noise01b) is moved along the z-axis
Also, what absolutely does not come across in these images, is that brightness in both layers is cumulative...Now, with Sandwich's single texture on both layers and one layer rotated 90 degress, this gives almost the kind of irregular behaviour as one of the previous comments suggested. As a result of the constantly changing positions of the bright spots relative to each other, the pattern that results is very unrepetative.
Basically as you can see from the above images, you simply need a texture on both layers, the outer one to give the impression you are in sort of a tunnel, and the inner one to give the impression of movement. The impression of speed depends highly on the speed at which the texture moves, which we can do nothing about.
There's only one thing what IMHO could enhance the 'feel', and that is if the POF were slightly bend so you would not, or only partially, be able to see the ends, as they would just be around the bend...;)
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I like the first screenie the most.
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agreed
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First one for subspace, a red version of the second for B5 hyperspace:D
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If the new models look nicer than the thing on the first page in the thread, sure :)
I'd really like to see the ability to use a different color portal for warping in and for warping out though more than just seeing a newer design to the portal
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Stuck between the first and the third screenie. Im leaning towards mostly the first one, since it looks the most detailed and good.
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The second one looks better to me. The third one looks as if the player were flying in some sort of electric storm.
One other thing is the FPS value. Only 34? What if you place more ships in it? At most 11 FPS?
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Originally posted by JarC
(http://forum.ftd.nu/images/smilies/worshippy.gif) please, let us normal beings share in your wisdom...
Oh, so arch thou art. :rolleyes:
A POF that fixed the "crinkled" subspace ends has been available for a long, long time (courtesy of Styxx). I believe it's hosted on Volition Watch. They also have piles of alternate subspace textures.
Funny to watch everyone all drooling and tripping over each other as if this has never been done before.
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Originally posted by ShadowDrakken
I'd really like to see the ability to use a different color portal for warping in and for warping out though more than just seeing a newer design to the portal
Bobbau once made a TBP build with this implemented, don't know if it's still possible....probably not. I also would like to see this implemented officialy in FS_open....maybe post-3.6 ?
EDIT: Oh, and the first piccie gets my vote.
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Originally posted by TopAce
One other thing is the FPS value. Only 34? What if you place more ships in it? At most 11 FPS?
If you are referring to my screen shots, the game was at 60 the whole time. Taking screenshots drops the frame rate to 32. :doubt:
Originally posted by ZylonBane
A POF that fixed the "crinkled" subspace ends has been available for a long, long time (courtesy of Styxx). I believe it's hosted on Volition Watch. They also have piles of alternate subspace textures.
That one is 'crinkled' because I made a mistake with it. I have a new version that I'll upload either tomorrow, or the next day...
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Something really has to be done about those little black flecks, they've been an eyesore since about the time of the first env. mapping build. They stand out more in subspace, but they are bad all over the place. They make similar messes out of skyboxes, or anything else with a full, bright background.
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Originally posted by TopAce
TOne other thing is the FPS value. Only 34? What if you place more ships in it? At most 11 FPS?
don't get fooled by that, mine was at 42 and also dropped to 30ish during the screenshots...even froze the game for a blib...
admittedly, I don't have a racemonster (PII466Mhz) so I am not even close to maxing the performance of my card (GeForceFX5200Ultra)
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Originally posted by Flipside
If you use an ANI, it seems to only use the first frame of it, at least, that's what it did for me :(
That's odd.... I have one working. Although I think it may only work when the jpg / tga support is disabled - I'd have to check. Also, the spec & glow maps were a pain in the tits to do.
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Originally posted by ZylonBane
Oh, so arch thou art. :rolleyes:
A POF that fixed the "crinkled" subspace ends has been available for a long, long time (courtesy of Styxx). I believe it's hosted on Volition Watch. They also have piles of alternate subspace textures.
Funny to watch everyone all drooling and tripping over each other as if this has never been done before.
Damn that was a long time ago. About the same time I made close-orbit planet model. I guess it says something about the need to get off my ass and finish that project for once, huh?
:D
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Originally posted by Raa Tor'h
That one is 'crinkled' because I made a mistake with it.
I'm talking about the subspace POF that shipped with FS2 retail.
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maybe its time i redid my version of subspace to a hi-res version.... (nexus space flight in hires whee!)
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well, 'Ouroboros' just yanked the rug from underneath the whole subspace idea...real sobering reading back his comments from 5yrs ago...needs major rethinking over...kinda just wasting time with the current model and features...
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All three of those look really good. I think I like the first one best because the second is a little too dark and the third looks like a cylindrical lightning storm. Maybe that is just the ambient lighting. That second one might be good if you want to simulate being in the middle of a tornado in your mission though. We're not in Kansas anymore, Command, or something to that effect.
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are these to scale with the ship model? cause if so, YUCK! they're TOO DANG HUGE!!!
Granted the normal FS2 ones are a bit small, but come on, maybe a 50% enlargement, but these are just UGLY this huge
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Originally posted by ShadowDrakken
are these to scale with the ship model? cause if so, YUCK! they're TOO DANG HUGE!!!
:eek2: too huge?! man the original is so cramped, two capships in there and you ain't got even room to dodge missiles...
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First one, no contest.
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Originally posted by JarC
:eek2: too huge?! man the original is so cramped, two capships in there and you ain't got even room to dodge missiles...
eh? I could have sworn the original portals scaled based on the ship that creates them...
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The first piccy is awesome :nod::yes:
The second piccy really does remind of the SW hyperspace thingy in Rebel Assault 2....and then
The third piccy is just a bit weird. I like it though, a different feel to subspace. All in all, good job JarC!
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Originally posted by ShadowDrakken
eh? I could have sworn the original portals scaled based on the ship that creates them...
They do, but AFAIK this has no bearing on the size of subspace. Its a seperate pof file with a fixed size.
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ok, I'm lost, just ignore me =^_^= I thought subspace was when ships portalled in and out at nodes and such... thought this was about new artwork for that (which is needed, especially the ability to warp in and out in different colors ;))
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what you're talking about it the entrance to subspace. its just an animation you see when ships warp in and out.
If you've never played FS1, you probably don't know about subspace. You allways just see the ships entering and exiting, but you never see subspace itself. Its like a tunnel that ships travel through to get from point to point. It never appears in FS2, thats why many people don't know about it. The tunnel itself is a model with textures, like a ship. Thats what is being replaced here. Hope that made sense.
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I keep having flashbacks to the inside of that wormhole on Deep Space Nine when I see some of those pictures. That should probably be avoided.
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Originally posted by Rictor
what you're talking about it the entrance to subspace. its just an animation you see when ships warp in and out.
If you've never played FS1, you probably don't know about subspace. You allways just see the ships entering and exiting, but you never see subspace itself. Its like a tunnel that ships travel through to get from point to point. It never appears in FS2, thats why many people don't know about it. The tunnel itself is a model with textures, like a ship. Thats what is being replaced here. Hope that made sense.
I have and have played FS1 (no expansion though), but it's got some seriously tough missions and it's been a long time. I'm not sure I've ever gotten to any of the subspace missions before
As it is, in FS2 I've only made it past the Sathanas once (coincidently, that's exactly where I'm at again now after several years not playing)
I'd love to see improved entrance/exit portals along with the subspace missions :)
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Originally posted by Vanguard
I keep having flashbacks to the inside of that wormhole on Deep Space Nine when I see some of those pictures. That should probably be avoided.
LOL There's budget. :D
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Originally posted by Rictor
They do, but AFAIK this has no bearing on the size of subspace. Its a seperate pof file with a fixed size.
Which is also not relevant here. The size of the subspace models is also not what is displayed in game, as the models in the VP are precisely 25x25x334, much too small to actually fiy anything inside.
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Really? So the subspace model is dynamically re-sized or what? I thought it was fixed-size, guess I never had the opportunity to find out otherwise.
ShadowDrakken: yup, I too would like to see new jump animations. The current ones are low-res and the pof model could also stand to be improved.
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I don't see what's wrong with the current jump animations. And I still prefer the original subspace texture. These new ones just don't feel right to me.
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well then you'll like mine. they're almost exactly like the originals, but higher res.
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Originally posted by ZylonBane
Oh, so arch thou art. :rolleyes:
A POF that fixed the "crinkled" subspace ends has been available for a long, long time (courtesy of Styxx). I believe it's hosted on Volition Watch. They also have piles of alternate subspace textures.
Funny to watch everyone all drooling and tripping over each other as if this has never been done before.
ZB, read back a few pages. I've already mentioned this and a new issue exists. We're no longer aiming for a mere "fixed" subspace (which, as you and I have pointed out, already exists), but one with more layers. It's around page 2 or 3, IIRC.
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Originally posted by Setekh
We're no longer aiming for a mere "fixed" subspace (which, as you and I have pointed out, already exists), but one with more layers. It's around page 2 or 3, IIRC.
and preferably one that does not have all the current limitations (no size constraints so the number of ships is not limited, either a circular tube (so you actually fly instead of the model moving along with you) o just a looooong bended one
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Originally posted by Ransom Arceihn
I don't see what's wrong with the current jump animations. And I still prefer the original subspace texture. These new ones just don't feel right to me.
This is SCP. The 'Improve everything we can' mania is spreading throught the whole community. They are stoned out by their 32-bit and HTL add-ons, and they have turned on their brains.
The only problem with the [V] subspace was that the texture it used was too small. In my opinion, a talented artist could make subspace much better by simply sharpening the texture. Instead, they make models of 250,000 polygons to slow down FS subspace fights as much as possible.
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Nothing wrong with improving everything possible, is there? Look at how apparently simple yet superior the "FLT" effect for IW2 is.. we could easily achieve that.
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That effect works with 31 FPS with HLT. My main problem.
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So do something else, the point is that the original effect has various serious and obviously ugly features.
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If the background editor was enhanced to support placing POFs as well as static bitmaps, the possibility of rolling your own subspace effect would fall out of that automatically.
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Originally posted by TopAce
That effect works with 31 FPS with HLT. My main problem.
Topace, we already went over this. You CANNOT judge how well the game is run by the FPS in the screenshots. EVERY mission I play that runs at my card's max of 60 FPS WILL show a screenshot fps of 32! It's a problem with the image recorder. Not the model.
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that, and as i stated quite a few times, if you don't like it leave it off.
I am not telling you not to make a SW TC because i hate SW and don't want our beautifull engine infested by it's pest. You are not forcing me to play it, and neither am I forcing you to use this model.
So if you don't like it, STFU.
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Originally posted by kasperl
that, and as i stated quite a few times, if you don't like it leave it off.
I am not telling you not to make a SW TC because i hate SW and don't want our beautifull engine infested by it's pest. You are not forcing me to play it, and neither am I forcing you to use this model.
So if you don't like it, STFU.
Erm, did I miss something? Who are you talking to?
ZB, this whole thing originated out of my idea at adding another 2 external layers of rotating subspace goodness outside of the current layers, giving it more of a feel of depth beyond just a psychedelic tunnel.
The texture experimentations have come out of that. :p
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So what was decided on the extra 2 layers, then?
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I think that they were just ignored
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Originally posted by Sandwich
Erm, did I miss something? Who are you talking to?
That was directed towards TopAce
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Originally posted by Turambar
I think that they were just ignored
`by the flood of texture trials :), hey, I am all for a completely new design...but to cut a long story short, as ZylonBane said, this topic is as old as they come, read this Editorial (http://freespace.kicks-ass.net/ed_subspace.htm) from Ouroboros (who some here might remember?) and then rethink your ideas
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He makes some good points, and admittedly nothing was more strange for Freespace than the mission in Derelict where ships are popping out of Subspace left and right (first encounter with the Lucy-class, I'm not looking up it's name). There are some gaps in that though; I can't ever remember running in to subspace in either FS1 or FS2, and I seem to remember the distances around the Lucifer to be more than adequate.
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Originally posted by JarC
`by the flood of texture trials :), hey, I am all for a completely new design...but to cut a long story short, as ZylonBane said, this topic is as old as they come, read this Editorial (http://freespace.kicks-ass.net/ed_subspace.htm) from Ouroboros (who some here might remember?) and then rethink your ideas
Ahem.
[q]Because speed is not very useful in subspace - you're pretty much going in one direction, whether you like it or not, and you can't really move quickly in a new direction long enough to use afterburners and countermeasures - missiles are that much harder to dodge. And as speed is no longer a major advantage, the Hercules is the ship of choice, if available.[/q]
Plain wrong. The moving textures make it seem like you're not moving fast, but that's all they do. As far as the game engone goes, subspace is exactly the same as normal space, with a couple of extra rotating tubes around the player.
I haven't sone thorough testing tho - is it possible for a player to actually reach the side wall of subspace, or are the tubes always centered on the player? If not, can a player fly far enough away from a capship in subspace ("dragging" the tubes along with him) that the capship will cross the tubes' barrier?
Does "forward" motion along the tubes length actually move the player closer to the end of the tube? IMO it can't, otherwise the tube would eclipse the sun at the end.
[q]I will say this, however: The first designer to bring before me a subspace-set mission that I can enjoy will receive the coveted "Kewl Werk" Award from me and Zarathud, created for this very sort of design problem. But I don't think that it can be done. Or maybe I'm just too cynical.[/q]
Oh boy, will the FSU surprise him. :D
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Originally posted by Sandwich
Ahem.
[q]Because speed is not very useful in subspace - you're pretty much going in one direction, whether you like it or not, and you can't really move quickly in a new direction long enough to use afterburners and countermeasures - missiles are that much harder to dodge. And as speed is no longer a major advantage, the Hercules is the ship of choice, if available.[/q]
Plain wrong. The moving textures make it seem like you're not moving fast, but that's all they do. As far as the game engone goes, subspace is exactly the same as normal space, with a couple of extra rotating tubes around the player.
No, not plain wrong, in subspace you measure your speed relative to subspace and not normal space...in a subspace mission, everything is centered on alpha-1, give or take a couple of clicks for playroom, you move one way, everything moves along the same way, whilest at all times the subspace model is pointing in the same direction, relative to you they have the same speed and direction, ergo you're going nowhere fast
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I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. Sandwich is correct in that the game simply plasters a model around the playing field and calls it "subspace." Missiles, fighters, destroyers, and everything else is still measured in game units on a static coordinate system, and move relative to the center of the playfield (also the center of the subspace model IIRC). That article indicates that you are less able to evade missiles, while this is simply not true. If it were, that last mission in FS1 would simply consist of flying in a straight line; you'd be unable to manuver at all around the Lucifer, nor around your wingmates if they got in front of you somehow. Or alternatively, if everything was centered on Alpha 1 as you suggest, you'd be completely unable to manuver at all (as everything else would simply add your velocity to whatever the particular object is traveling at). You percieve yourself as moving because of the way the background is rendered, but from a technical definition of how the game works there is absolutely no difference between "subspace" and "normal space."
I'd ask a coder about how the model is rendered, but as far as it effecting gameplay it just becomes a fancy skybox.
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did you deliberatly ignore the 'give or take a couple of clicks for playroom'?
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it's a sky box, that's all it is, it's rendered before anything else with no zbuffer, it's rendered around the eye_position with an identity orientation matrix, it isn't scaled it isn't moveing, the only diference between a normal mission and a subspace one is the sky box and the sound effects
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exactly! I was just about to say that, but in less technical terms
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You know, the current subspace pof dealie whatever it is kinda reminds me of the Town Portal loading screen from Diablo 1... am I the only one? I haven't seen/played Diablo 1 for years, but the current subspace reminded me of it...
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Originally posted by Bobboau
it's a sky box
voila, and that replies to sandwich's question ( can you reach the edges? no, not more that you can reach those sathanas near Capella ). And subspace works exactly the same as normal space in game terms, like hell V made another physics just for that :p
Shotting primaries backward in subspace never sent my shots back in my face, as far as I can tell :p And if everything was moving at the same time you move, well, how the hell could we reach the lucifer in FS1? :p
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Originally posted by Sandwich
Erm, did I miss something? Who are you talking to?
TopAce, sorry for not quoting.
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It was obvious. And yes! You cannot force somebody who is at least 12,000 kilometers away from you to use this model. ;)
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Originally posted by Nico
voila, and that replies to sandwich's question ( can you reach the edges? no, not more that you can reach those sathanas near Capella ).
Yeah, that was the only part I really wasn't 100% sure about, since I recalled that flying "towards" the closest facing of the subspace tunnel wall was disconcerting in that I seemed to be getting closer, but then again I wasn't. Very disorientating.:shaking:
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Originally posted by Nico
voila, and that replies to sandwich's question ( can you reach the edges? no, not more that you can reach those sathanas near Capella ). And subspace works exactly the same as normal space in game terms, like hell V made another physics just for that :p
Shotting primaries backward in subspace never sent my shots back in my face, as far as I can tell :p And if everything was moving at the same time you move, well, how the hell could we reach the lucifer in FS1? :p
well yeah. The thought that everything is moving away from you in subspace dosnt make sence because everything would be mooving at the same relative speed. Its because of the same reason a fly in an airplane dosnt get smashed into the back of the plane when it jumps up and flies; its moving at the same speed of the plane, and couldnt stop and get smooshed into the back of the plane if he wanted too. Its basic laws of motion right there.
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I know what's missing...the Light at the end of the tunnel....
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Switch on the lamps, then.
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that's a mission thing I think, you have to add suns (this is also why nothing is lit in any of the screens)
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Originally posted by TrashMan
I know what's missing...the Light at the end of the tunnel....
There's always light at the end of the tunnel, they say :p
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With Raa's new model the suns don't seem to appear.
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Is it smaller in size than the [V] version? It may be the problem.
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The original subspace_big and subspace_small pofs both had engine glows attached to their ends. Those were the "suns"
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Oh, yes. I also noticed that suns and engine glows are very similiar. But it didn't come to my mind.
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Beams used to be engine glows too.
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
The original subspace_big and subspace_small pofs both had engine glows attached to their ends. Those were the "suns"
Really? Then that's a super easy fix...
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I know they had it but I'm not sure they were used.
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I'm oretty sure they are. I made a table entry for each pof and put them into a mission. The engine glows shone bright and clear.
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Well, then just use PCS to import the original pof data into the models I made. They're the same exact size...
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How goes this? Anybody working on it?
I found another Subspace pic.
(http://www.lancersreactor.com/images/news/e46.jpg)
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Originally posted by Rictor
They do, but AFAIK this has no bearing on the size of subspace. Its a seperate pof file with a fixed size.
try makeing your textures tranparant, I don't know about the rest of you but in the normal FS Subspace stars can be seen through the energy waves of subspace.
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Originally posted by Starfighter
try makeing your textures tranparant
No need, FS does this automagically in subspace missions.
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Originally posted by Shinobi
How goes this? Anybody working on it?
I found another Subspace pic.
(http://www.lancersreactor.com/images/news/e46.jpg)
now that's just plain awesome, but lets see it actually in game ;)
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I have a horrible suspicion that's done using a mathmatical wave function on the model, making the walls warp and flow :( (Yes, I think that classes as Geomodding ;) )
Gorgeous pic though :D
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Well, make the skins, and a subtley warped mesh may do the trick. :nod:
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just wait until bump-mapping is introduced post 3.6
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Originally posted by Shinobi
How goes this? Anybody working on it?
I found another Subspace pic.
(http://www.lancersreactor.com/images/news/e46.jpg)
Wow, neat. Pity that's not what Freelancer actually looks like. ;)
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It should be possible to get that reflection off the walls in FSSCP though, which would be neat. As for ulundating (whatever) walls, could some smartly-constructted intersecting tunnel walls do the trick?
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You know, I wish I had my computer so I could at least try somthing for this...
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I have a question: What kind of a performance hit is this going to have? Not all of us here (well, at least me) have these ultra powerful video cards.
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I can't answer entirely - but I will say that you have to remember you're not rendering suns, nebulas, background nebulas or anything like that when you have a subspace tunnel. You're just rendering the tunnel (and everything else you'd normally find of course).
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Originally posted by Kalfireth
I can't answering - but I will say that you have to remember you're not rendering suns, nebulas, background nebulas or anything like that when you have a subspace tunnel. You're just rendering the tunnel (and everything else you'd normally find of course).
but what you are doing is full-screen rendering of two rotating models with animated, transparent texturing applied
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Ever seen ".the product"? IIRC they managed it there with minimal performance hits. At any rate.. we won't know how feasable it is untill we try.
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Originally posted by Kosh
I have a question: What kind of a performance hit is this going to have? Not all of us here (well, at least me) have these ultra powerful video cards.
GF2 Mx here, and barely any performance hit up to a ~2900 poly mesh. After that, though, it plummets.
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Isn't HTnL speeding things up Raa?
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Originally posted by Kosh
I have a question: What kind of a performance hit is this going to have? Not all of us here (well, at least me) have these ultra powerful video cards.
It mustn't be significant, since there is HTL, which makes the game 4x faster.
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Two things affect performance more than anything else, at least outside of memory management issues like Page files etc, and that's polycount, and texture resolution. The Subspace tunnel probably takes up around 400 polys (very rough guess). So four meshes would use roughly 1600 polys, hardly a back-breaker on any system. UT2K3 makes very frequent use of 1024 and 2048 textures, without performance problems on most newer cards.
I wouldn't think it would be a problem unless people got totally carried away.
The 'reflection' will be possible at some point after 3.6.
The moving walls are a little tougher, unless some kind of mathmatical function is applied to the vertices each frame, using interlinking pofs, I would have thought, would create clipping and texture problems :( This would, most likely, be considered geomodding, though bobboau has done stuff that jittered vertices about before, so I'm not certain.
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Originally posted by vyper
Isn't HTnL speeding things up Raa?
Well, yeah. That's what I meant. I used a mesh with 2900 polies (and since it uses two, that's 5800) and it kinda killed my frames, but the usual 400-800 poly 'chube' (haha@sarny) it runs at it's peak.
Originally posted by Flipside
So four meshes would use roughly 1600 polys, hardly a back-breaker on any system.
Though you are right that four meshes would be that case, subspace is only two meshes. And I don't know if anyone has messed with multiple layers for the subspace pof...
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Hmmm... sorry, somehow managed to post a reply halfway between 2 different questions ;) I meant 2 meshes and 800 polys, which is even better :)
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Wow, cool pic. That totally looks like ice. Like the inside of an ice-cave.
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models in the thousands of polies range isn't going to be harmful. we can probably get away with 100,000 poly ships for use on high-end cards
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...right. :wtf:
I doubt that. Maybe with the x800, or the 6800 Ultra, but not on the current stuff. I think, atleast.
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I hope you mean 10000, 100000 polies is more than a tad too much methinks.
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That would kill my mobility Radeon 7500......
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Originally posted by Raa Tor'h
...right. :wtf:
I doubt that. Maybe with the x800, or the 6800 Ultra, but not on the current stuff. I think, atleast.
at least? the 6800 can render over one million polys in real time. ON a current high end card like a Radeon 9500, 100,000 polys isnt much at all
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if properly built it probly wouldn't be a problem at all, 100,000 poly ships I don't think would be a problem, you'd need a radeon 9700 or better I'd say, but it could handel it with decent frame rates.
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I think its the ripples as well as the un-texturiness of the texture (well, why dont you think of a better word) that makes it look like an ice cave. There also appears to be some sort of lighting contributing to the effect.
Damn, that looks cool. If only Freelancer had been like that....
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"think of a better word"
subtlety
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Originally posted by PhReAk
models in the thousands of polies range isn't going to be harmful. we can probably get away with 100,000 poly ships for use on high-end cards
you, my good man, have totally lost touch with reality.
unless you want freespace Open to be played by only a handfull of people...I'd rather go for the largest market share and make sure it runs on as many cards as possible...
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Originally posted by JarC
you, my good man, have totally lost touch with reality.
unless you want freespace Open to be played by only a handfull of people...I'd rather go for the largest market share and make sure it runs on as many cards as possible...
which is exactly what we're doing. Your point?
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Originally posted by JarC
you, my good man, have totally lost touch with reality.
unless you want freespace Open to be played by only a handfull of people...I'd rather go for the largest market share and make sure it runs on as many cards as possible...
Well he did say "for use on high-end cards". Although even the Unreal Engine 3.0, which only runs reasonably on an FX 6800, only has 10,000 odd polies for a single model. And I don't think they've released the 6800 yet.
Say we improve it so it still runs on low-end cards. Now the high-end card owners are left with something that, to them, looks sub-standard (compared to new games, like Far Cry). The only solution I can think of is to have two versions of every improved model, a lower poly one (1000 polies or so?) and a higher poly one (5000?). Although frankly I don't think that solution is very workable.
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Ransom: there's another solution that's better than that... continue with the low poly models, and add z-mapping support as an option. Then high end card users can just turn that on and it adds the effect of a higher poly model for them :)
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I got a better Idea, set a minimum requirement and stick to it.
Tell people ahead of time they aren't going to be able to run this on their 5 year old hardware and quit trying to cater to them. Decent Video Cards are cheap these days and there's almost no reason that someone shouldn't have at least GF4 or Radeon 9xxx.
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I got one very good reason, a Mobo that won't give off the right voltage.
I am stuck with R7000 or below, thankyouverymuch.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
which is exactly what we're doing. Your point?
My point already explained, but indeed, you are correct in stating the current development does just that, but once the polycount will be on average 10000-100000 the result will be an elitair game, only playable by a handfull, say bye-bye to (large) community interest.
For a practical example of what it does to a system, try out the demo mission that has all of Omicrons hi-poly Star Trek models in it...
Not that I am against hi-poly models, but I notice a tendency to go overboard here, we are talking about an action-packed shooter here, not a virtual sight-seeing tour. There's no one that is gonna stop midflight/fight to admire the scenery (unless the pilot has suicide tendencies) so in most situations, such hi-poly counts are wasted on 95% of the player public...
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Or copy V's example and do a high spec and low-spec version of your campaigns, the hardest part would be the models themselves, but it's the easiest way to provide maximum flexibility and accessability.
I think it had already been decided that HT&L would probably be a minimum requirement in the end?
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Originally posted by Liberator
I got a better Idea, set a minimum requirement and stick to it.
Tell people ahead of time they aren't going to be able to run this on their 5 year old hardware and quit trying to cater to them. Decent Video Cards are cheap these days and there's almost no reason that someone shouldn't have at least GF4 or Radeon 9xxx.
Cheap? $200+ is hardly what I would call "cheap" (with the exception of a few companies' quality)
I for one can't afford even a $20 video card at this point, and my GF4 Ti4600 is becoming very quickly outdated. I'm sure there's also quite a few kids playing still, who are limited by what their parents are willing to fork out.
Don't presume everyone can afford to keep up, I don't have plans on upgrading until 2006 at the earliest. I'd rather see developers take the time to make their stuff work even on the MX level cards so that more people could enjoy the games. Just use scalable graphics options like the better games out there.
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The GF4 4600 Ti is fine for what we're doing to FreeSpace at the moment... I don't think we're trying to turn this into a Far Cry level game here - but if you're trying to run it on a TNT2 then you should expect a performance hit and seriously consider a hardware upgrade.
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Hell, you should consider an upgrade at the GF2 level. I know I am. *still waiting for ATi's new card to kill pices of last-gen cards*
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It already has, Raa'Torh. I bought an ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB DDR from CompUSA for $250 USD two Sundays ago. Awesome card, can't run the latest and greatest at max speed but its playable. FSO runs great, but suffers from all the performance problems associated with it, including massive texture load. Some of these days I'm going to go into my VP file and make all the sizes of the textures multiples of 2 because I am too impatient to wait for the community to do it for me
The Radeon 9800XT 256MB is holding the title of "ATI's current $400+ buck card". If you wanna wait for THAT monster to drop in price, you may have a long wait.
If you do get an ATI Radeon 9800 Pro, don't install the CD at all, just go to ATI's website and download the latest Catalyst drivers to be hummin right along.
Your mileage may vary.
P.S. My Anti-Aliasing doesn't work with FSO. If you adore your AA your gonna have to lobby the SCP team to fix Radeon AA support with FSO, because I have tried EVERYTHING I know to fix AA and NONE of it works!
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I've got my eye on the 9600XT with 256Mb ram, m'self. It's only 165.00 now, and I'd never buy from compUSA, they are a rip off. (They wanted 200.00 after a 50.00 mail in rebate)
And I'm not concerned about AA. I don't use it now ,and I think it looks great as is.
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FSO is dynamic in minimum system specs.
Ideally, it should run with the same PC that ran FS2 retail, exactly the same. If you've got more power you can turn on some special effects - you can find your own limit :)
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The only reason I bought from CompUSA was because I had no choice: $50 of that card's purchase came from a CompUSA Gift Card (god, it sux when people give you THOSE as presents, eh?) I could have gotten a 9600 XT for quite less, but I decided that if I was going to get a new upgrade, I might as well go the whole extra mile, so I got the 9800 Pro...
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
which is exactly what we're doing. Your point?
If your goal would be this, you wouldn't keen on making models of millions of polies. And now this MakeSubspaceFightsMoreMachineDevouring.
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Topace. They're. 480. Polies. Each.
That's not going over the deep end. Get ahold of yourself, please.
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And how many subspace layers are there?
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two, each useing one texture,
5,000 polys useing the same texture is less expensive than 2 polys each useing a diferent texture.
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Originally posted by Bobboau
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5,000 polys useing the same texture is less expensive than 2 polys each useing a diferent texture.
So does that mean that fighters are displayed more quickly?
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Originally posted by Liberator
I got a better Idea, set a minimum requirement and stick to it.
Tell people ahead of time they aren't going to be able to run this on their 5 year old hardware and quit trying to cater to them. Decent Video Cards are cheap these days and there's almost no reason that someone shouldn't have at least GF4 or Radeon 9xxx.
I don't claim to own a high-end PC, but I agree with you regardless. If someone's got the required hardware, the higher-end of the SCP is there for them. If regular FS2 is about as far as their hardware can go, then they can stick to that.
Nobody ever said this stuff was manditory.
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:welcome:
and TopAce; yes
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Thanks for the welcome. ;)
Given my chronic insanity, I think I'll fit in just fine around here... :D