Hard Light Productions Forums

Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: vyper on April 15, 2004, 06:41:41 pm

Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: vyper on April 15, 2004, 06:41:41 pm
Suggestions?
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Grey Wolf on April 15, 2004, 06:48:26 pm
I rather like my Logitech Cordless Freedom, but most of the people here seem to swear by the HOTAS setups.

If you're cheaper, the Logitech Wingman series is always good.
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Odyssey on April 15, 2004, 06:54:32 pm
[color=cc9900]Or, if you're cheap and like a HOTAS setup, get a Saitek X45.[/color]
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: mikhael on April 15, 2004, 10:27:29 pm
Get a HOTAS setup. X45 if you're cheap, CH Products if you want decent hardware, Thrustmaster HOTAS/Cougar if you've got money to burn.

Whatever you do, don't by a garbage game stick like a logitech or gravis or microsoft.
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Liberator on April 16, 2004, 12:48:18 am
As a control freak, your biased, mik.

Logitech makes good hardware, just not as complex as mik likes.  He forget's that the keyboard is there for a reason.

Get something you are comfortable with, you won't use it if you are uncomfortable using it.  I bought one one time to see if I could use it and I could get out of the third training mission in the original FS, and I've used a mouse ever since, and the stick sits in my bedroom at my parents gathering dust.
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Sandwich on April 16, 2004, 12:51:54 am
I like my old Microsoft Precision Pro - 'tis an optical mechanisim, and the advantage over the second version of the Precision Pro is that it has a "shift" button that doubles the amount of functions the buttons can perform. :)
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: mikhael on April 16, 2004, 01:18:56 am
Quote
Originally posted by Liberator
As a control freak, your biased, mik.

Logitech makes good hardware, just not as complex as mik likes.  He forget's that the keyboard is there for a reason.

Get something you are comfortable with, you won't use it if you are uncomfortable using it.  I bought one one time to see if I could use it and I could get out of the third training mission in the original FS, and I've used a mouse ever since, and the stick sits in my bedroom at my parents gathering dust.

Remember, boys and girls: HOTAS != Quality

As a control freak, I'm biased toward HOTAS. This includes the three HOTAS setups I mentioned. Saitek makes a low quality HOTAS, CH Products makes a decent quality HOTAS, and Thrustmaster makes a high quality HOTAS.

As a person who likes to get value for his money, I'm biased against badly made gear. Logitech, Microsoft, Saitek, Gravis, etc make horrible plastic pieces of trash. Not only are they made of--essentially--the same thing the plastic cups in my cupboard are made of, but the gimbals and the potentiometers are absolute bottom of the bucket.

Microsoft's Sidewinder series of sticks are somewhat of an exception. They're still made of the crappy plastic, but they used that nifty optical mechanism, thus avoiding the curse of the bad pots used in most sticks.

Just thought that should be cleared up.
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Unknown Target on April 16, 2004, 06:40:00 am
Saitek Saitek Saitek Saitek Saitek Saitek Saitek Saitek Saitek Saitek Saitek Saitek Saitek Saitek Saitek Saitek Saitek Saitek ! :D

Logitech sucks, because their sticks are famous for breaking within a month. I had my Wingman for about 2 months, 4th button broke, and I had my next Logitech stick (forget the name), and the throttle stopped working after about the same amount of time, and then the whole stick broke about a month later, when the thing that kep the whole thing centered broke. When I looked it up for help, I found out that the sticks breaking was a common thing.

Anyway, I have/had my Saitek Cyborg 3D Gold for about four months now, and no problems (until it got thrown against the floor by an angry family member, now the throttle and one of the buttons is busted :D But that's still better than Logitech! :D)
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Gortef on April 16, 2004, 03:37:30 pm
One vote more to Saitek x45
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: TopAce on April 16, 2004, 03:47:32 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Liberator
As a control freak, your biased, mik.

Logitech makes good hardware, just not as complex as mik likes.  He forget's that the keyboard is there for a reason.

Get something you are comfortable with, you won't use it if you are uncomfortable using it.  I bought one one time to see if I could use it and I could get out of the third training mission in the original FS, and I've used a mouse ever since, and the stick sits in my bedroom at my parents gathering dust.


It is always good to see that not only I don't like FreeSpace with Joystick.
I am also about to buy a new one(since the older one is at least 6 years old!). I deeply doubt I would play FreeSpace with that, only X-wing Alliance(this game is a reason why I want to buy one).
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Grey Wolf on April 16, 2004, 05:05:29 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Unknown Target
Logitech sucks, because their sticks are famous for breaking within a month. I had my Wingman for about 2 months, 4th button broke, and I had my next Logitech stick (forget the name), and the throttle stopped working after about the same amount of time, and then the whole stick broke about a month later, when the thing that kep the whole thing centered broke. When I looked it up for help, I found out that the sticks breaking was a common thing.
You must be far more abusive than I am. My first Logitech (Logitech Wingman Extreme 3D) lasted me about 2.5 years before the rX axis started going, and my second (the Freedom 2.4) has functioned quite well for the year since I replaced the Wingman. Really wish it used Lithium Ion batteries or something though.
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Xelion on April 16, 2004, 10:08:17 pm
By the sounds of it most of us seem to have aggressive tendencies towards Joysticks. I would think that precision and accuracy don't involve ripping the joystick out of its socket to the left or right when your trying to avoid a missile hitting your fighter.

Although mik's opinion might be biased it might have some truth in it, but don't certainly trust ones words entirely. I have a Logitech Freedom 2.4 Cordless joystick, I have had it for several months now and it works fine but I don't treat it like s*** especially when it cost $150 bucks (AU). Some people think when you buy products you can treat it like crap and thats when they end up breaking, the same goes for all computer parts.

As I've only ever had Logitech Joysticks, I think there adequate :yes: enough, there really isn't a decent Joystick out there for a space simulation like Freespace unless you rip the ones out of a NASA Space Shuttle. Anyway my suggestion would be to shop around and see what is best for yourself :nod:.
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Deepblue on April 17, 2004, 03:11:41 am
Um... yeah, there are... Its an arcade ss. Precision Pro 2 works fine.
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: TopAce on April 17, 2004, 11:38:20 am
If you 'show mercy' to your joystick, it will live far longer. Even cheaper ones! And if you want to evade a missile: COUNTERMEASURES, sir! If you are at good angle, you only have to push a single button. In FS, countermeasures have better use than doing sudden maneuvers. Especially in snail-slow fighters like the Hercules, or the Ares.
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Xelion on April 17, 2004, 11:42:11 pm
Quote
Originally posted by TopAce
And if you want to evade a missile: COUNTERMEASURES, sir! If you are at good angle, you only have to push a single button. In FS, countermeasures have better use than doing sudden maneuvers. Especially in snail-slow fighters like the Hercules, or the Ares.

After launching a countermeasure u still want to manoeuvre out of the way using afterburners or you might be caught in the blast effect of the missile :D
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Fineus on April 18, 2004, 06:55:22 am
I echo the recommendation of Saitek - of all the Joysticks I've ever owned my Cyborg 3D lasted the longest and was also ideal for my left handed-ness. However I've now upgraded to the Cyborg Evo which is just as good in terms of response and feel... I've not had any problems with control with it.

Of course, I'm not a die-hard sim fan or control freak...
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: 01010 on April 18, 2004, 07:00:56 am
Quote
Originally posted by Kalfireth
left handed-ness


BURN THE INFIDEL!
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Fineus on April 18, 2004, 07:13:57 am
Naff off ;)
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Nico on April 18, 2004, 07:21:17 am
I've had my SW precision 2 for quite a few years, still works great. Pb is, I found myself a real killer using mouse+keyboard in FS2, rather than with the stick, so she went under the table to collect dust :p.
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: aldo_14 on April 18, 2004, 07:25:38 am
I had a Logitech wingman extreme for about 7/8 years *probably longer, I'm not sure) - never had any complaints.  'twas well built, comfy and the one time I did have a problem (about 5/6 months after bringing it home from the US), the customer support was excellent - all I had to do was snip the cable off, send it to them, and I got a brand new one (joystick) in the post.  That joystick is the one which has listed for the last 7/8 years - the only reason I don;t still use it is because my new Pc doesn;t have an old style gameport to plug it into.

EDIT - infact, I'm surprised to hear Logitech getting slagged for lifetime of their sticks, because the one I have has served me so well.

(I'm using a Saitek cyborg one - the older model - which is nowhere near as good - a lot lighter, a lot less tension, and just not as good all round)
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: TopAce on April 18, 2004, 02:37:45 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Xelion

After launching a countermeasure u still want to manoeuvre out of the way using afterburners or you might be caught in the blast effect of the missile :D


Keyboard ...
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Cabbie on April 18, 2004, 08:41:19 pm
Hi, new here! Great to see the Freespace community still alive and kicking. :)

As for joystick, I recommend CH.   A bit pricy up front, I got my set up around 200 bucks but saves you the hassle of buyng and setting up a new one everytime your stick breaks. I have been using a CH flightstick and Pro Throttle for about 4 years now with no problems so far :). I just wish it was made of diecast metal like the cougar but you can't have everything.
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Xelion on April 18, 2004, 09:54:25 pm
:welcome:

Some worthwhile links to check out while your here are the Source Code Project (http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=50), The Wiki (http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/fsdoc/index.php), the Inferno Mod (http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=20) and the Highlights (http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/hlp/category_show.php?cat=22&pro=24)  :thepimp:

Have a Nice Day :D
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Cabbie on April 18, 2004, 10:48:01 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Xelion
:welcome:

Some worthwhile links to check out while your here are the Source Code Project (http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=50), The Wiki (http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/fsdoc/index.php), the Inferno Mod (http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=20) and the Highlights (http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/hlp/category_show.php?cat=22&pro=24)  :thepimp:

Have a Nice Day :D


Thanks for the welcome, I'm checking those links out. I never knew that there so much stuff to add on to good ole Freespace :)


Quote
Originally posted by Nico
I've had my SW precision 2 for quite a few years, still works great. Pb is, I found myself a real killer using mouse+keyboard in FS2, rather than with the stick, so she went under the table to collect dust :p.


Funny thing is, I finished the game several times already on with a mouse and keyboard setup before I went out and bought my HOTAS.  But it's so much more fun playing with a Flightstick and Throttle. :)
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Xelion on April 19, 2004, 03:09:10 am
Quote
Originally posted by Cabbie
Thanks for the welcome, I'm checking those links out. I never knew that there so much stuff to add on to good ole Freespace :)

actually theres quite a lot more :nod: I don't think a single person around here has manage to keep up :shaking:
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Nico on April 19, 2004, 03:16:37 am
Quote
Originally posted by Cabbie
Funny thing is, I finished the game several times already on with a mouse and keyboard setup before I went out and bought my HOTAS.  But it's so much more fun playing with a Flightstick and Throttle. :)


I did the other way around :D
really, I do about everything with the keyboard ( even piloting the ship ), the mouse is used to pinpoint ( so large turns with the keyboard, and I adjust with the mouse, works during turns too ), that's deadly, FPS-like accuracy :)
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Cabbie on April 19, 2004, 03:31:54 am
Quote
Originally posted by Xelion

actually theres quite a lot more :nod: I don't think a single person around here has manage to keep up :shaking:


Just blew 3 hours of my life checking all the stuff out, and your right,  it's overwhelming. I think I'll download the update patch first. :)


Quote
Originally posted by Nico


I did the other way around :D
really, I do about everything with the keyboard ( even piloting the ship ), the mouse is used to pinpoint ( so large turns with the keyboard, and I adjust with the mouse, works during turns too ), that's deadly, FPS-like accuracy :)


I hear ya. I usually steer with my mouse ala Freelancer before. It was great, you can easily follow the target rectacle whereever it goes. But with a Stick and throttle I can easily do some really nice stunts, besides I need to fulfill my geeky desire to drive my starship with a HOTASS ;).
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: TopAce on April 19, 2004, 02:41:29 pm
This mouse trick is new to me. It has never come to my mind to use the damned rodent pest. :D
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Cabbie on April 19, 2004, 03:41:26 pm
I don't know about Nico's style but one of the problems of mousing I encounter was usually running out of mouse pad during huge turns or when trying to follow a really fast ship zipping around off screen. :ick:
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Nico on April 19, 2004, 04:22:14 pm
That's why I turn with the keyboard :p The mouse is used for accurate moves ( or to slow down the keyborad turn rate, coz, you know, my keyboard is no analogic one , so if you counter the keyboard move with the mouse, it just turns slower :p -> yeah, you got it, I turn with the mouse AND the keyboard at the same time. And my mouse has enough buttons so I don't need to bring my left hand back to the keyboard at any time. I play it like a FPS, sort of ).
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Ghostavo on April 19, 2004, 05:06:44 pm
Bah... after you get used to the keyboard is not that bad... you can still become very good at playing the game. This has nothing to do with the fact that I have never played FS and FS2 with a joystick or a mouse. :nervous:
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: mikhael on April 19, 2004, 05:29:48 pm
Venom, you're a deeply scary man.

If I had the money, I'd buy you a good proper stick, throttle and rudder pedal set, just so you know what you've been missing.
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Cabbie on April 19, 2004, 07:04:31 pm
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Venom, you're a deeply scary man.

If I had the money, I'd buy you a good proper stick, throttle and rudder pedal set, just so you know what you've been missing.


Not very knowledgeable about avionics but what does exactly rudder pedals do. I'm now thinking of getting those CH pedals just to complete my set, I just wonder what can it add to my Freespace piloting (more cool flying tricks, I'm sure but what exactly). :blah:
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: mikhael on April 19, 2004, 10:50:09 pm
Well, they do whatever you program them to do. By default in most jet  and space sims, they handle the roll axis. In most propeller sims, they handle turning left and right (the stick handles up/down and roll).

Of course, in good pedals, you not only have a rudder axis, but also toe brakes (either as buttons or as honest to goodness axes of their own). Those can likewise be programmed.

For me, if I had a set of pedals, they'd control my roll axis in most games, while the left toe-brake would handle afterburner and the right toe-break would handle some commonly used function like shield balancing or something.
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Cabbie on April 19, 2004, 11:01:54 pm
Ah thanks, now I really want those peddals :)
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Thorn on April 19, 2004, 11:15:49 pm
In a real airplane, the stick controls pitch and bank (rolling and nosing up and down), the pedals control yaw (the tail rudder, left and right turning)
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Nico on April 20, 2004, 01:32:04 am
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Venom, you're a deeply scary man.

If I had the money, I'd buy you a good proper stick, throttle and rudder pedal set, just so you know what you've been missing.


I know them, it's cool and all, but I get more kills per minute with thge mouse+keyboard combo than the joystick, so :p
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: TopAce on April 20, 2004, 10:00:20 am
You didn't get used to playing with Joysticks.
Same here, and I don't want to get used to it, even after I manage to grab a joystick.
I believe good PXO players played with joysticks.
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Cabbie on April 20, 2004, 10:13:45 am
Talking about accuracy. I  use that thumb pointer stick on my CH throttle for those precision shots. Very nice. But I have to try mousing like what Nico suggested.
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Havock on April 20, 2004, 01:41:07 pm
I've got a Thrustmaster op gun stick thingy with vibro-stuff, could be better, but it handles well and it's fairly cheap.
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Sandwich on April 20, 2004, 03:37:29 pm
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
For me, if I had a set of pedals, they'd control my roll axis in most games, while the left toe-brake would handle afterburner and the right toe-break would handle some commonly used function like shield balancing or something.


Toe-brakes? Wha...? :shaking:

*watches Mik twitch seizure-like while playing FS2*
Title: Requires new Joystick >>
Post by: Nico on April 20, 2004, 04:08:47 pm
toe brake: the end of the rudder pedal acts like a car pedal ( the pedal is articulated in the middle, if you want ), that's how real plane rudders are too.