Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kazan on April 16, 2004, 08:08:53 pm
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http://www.townhall.com/columnists/ollienorth/on20040416.shtml
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hmmm, your siteing a conservitive site...
hmmm...
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conservatives don't _always_ lie
i figured we needed some opposing views for once -- i'm liberal but i see rabid liberalism here
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I just see rabid rabidness for the sake of being rabid. Hell, why not?
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well i'd like to see some stories like this reported. but since its not sensationalist bull****, its not news
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Idiotic ambulance-chasing media. Someone should drive some sort of emergency vehicle past the office of each and every media outlet in America. Whichever ones come out and follow should lose their publication/broadcasting rights for at least a year. That'd set things straight.
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His prose reeks of the disengenous lie.
Revolting fellow actually.
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I was just saying it's odd, usualy things like this present the left bias on these boards, it's just... unusual, as you said, rabid liberalism here.
...Oliver North, that's gona get some people going :D.
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Anti-Iraqi forces
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
edit: if by Liberal, you're reffering to me I think you should know that I agree on many issues with not only Libertarians but also straight-up conservatives like Buchanan. Hell, one of the columns which I read regularly has recently recommended I get a subsciption to the American Conservative cause its a really great mag.
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This is going to be so interesting to study in 50 years time.
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I wasn't refering to _you_ but rather the general atmosphere, but yes, I do consider you to be one of the hardest left in here, it's not suprizeing that you'd agree with some libertarians as libertarian polocy is neither right or left, so there would be pollocies that you would have no problems with and some you probly would.
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And since when are conservatives for Big Government or an American empire (call it what you will). Some of the staunchest conservatives around are proponents of a non-interventionist foreign policy.
Here is alink I ran into today, pure coincidence.
http://www.independent.org/tii/content/pubs/review/tir84_hayes.html
Finally, Taft was prescient in warning that even well-meaning internationalism would necessarily degenerate over time into a form of imperialism that would breed resentment against the United States around the globe, eventually endangering U.S. national security.
Seem familiar? And this guy died in the 50's, wonder what he'd think of today's America.
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did I say conservatives are for Big Government inherantly?
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Hey, I'm a leftist. Or a pragmatist. Or something inbetween.
However, the article seems to make a hell of a lot of blanket statemets
["They don't just go in, drop artillery and kill everyone, including civilians. They surgically remove the terrorists and limit the damage to the infrastructure, which makes a big difference to the population."], while barely giving any evidence for or against. Though anecdotal evidence is generally loathed upon, it can sometime provide us with at least general picture as of what's going on. All the statements about US forces causing civilian casualties can't be false. Civilians do die in battles, but this guy's basically denying it.
He is also overusing the term "terrorist". The term is getting weaker all the time, labelling all insurgents/resistance fighters/whatever as "OMG TERRISTS" does not help the cause. Also, huge rolleyes to "Anti-Iraq forces". Praising the soldiers - from whereever they are - also disgusts me. I was in the goddamn Finnish army, yes. I know a lot about military, yes. But I am a bit suspicious as to how the Marines' families and previous lives have helped them earn respect from "majority of Iraqis" [a statement which seems a bit weird, as AFAIK ~17% of the Shiites and 30% of the Sunnis resist the occupation].
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The problem with the article is, IMO, that it refuses to recognise that some ordinary Iraqis are very unhappy.... it looks to shift blame onto Baathist loyalists and terrorists, and by implication tries to create the impression that there is no 'home-grown' insurgency as a result of the occupation. The second thing i noticed is that it mnentions friendly Iraqis assisting the Us in a firefight - yet not the entire battalion of the Iraqi army who refused to participate in the fighting / siege in Falluja.
It's a political article, though. And these never give a true picture - either black or white, when the situation is gray. Yes, there are terrorists, etc, in Iraq - but there are also ordinary Iraqis taking up arms. And when this sort of partisan-ship creeps in, it stops the problems being properly solved - it's about solving the Us poliitcal problems, not the problems of Iraq.
Finally, the issue over Iraq is not over the military/ It's over the politics - not just how the military is being used as a vastly over-stretched police force, but also in the lies that brought the war, and in the seemingly doomed attempts to bring a stable democracy. Oh, and the whole cronysim issue over rebuilding contracts, the damage done to the Un, etc.
And the guy's selling a book on the Iraq war - he's hardly going to be anything but glowing in praise, based on his blurb at the bottom.....
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Originally posted by Setekh
This is going to be so interesting to study in 50 years time.
Hehe, oh so true. ;)
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Oliver North?
LOL
Couldnt you find an opposing view with a bit more crediblity Kazan?
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Originally posted by aldo_14
The second thing i noticed is that it mnentions friendly Iraqis assisting the Us in a firefight - yet not the entire battalion of the Iraqi army who refused to participate in the fighting / siege in Falluja.
Apparently Kurdish Peshmergas are fighting alongside the americans.
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Once again, Kurds are not "Iraqis" proper. They're a sessesionist (sp?) faction, who have no great love for the Iraqi people and vice versa.
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They live in Iraq they're Iraqis. Doesnt matter if they dont want to be, they are.
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argh.....politics.....
I hate politics......
If any of you become president, promis to just let me beg on the streets and sleep in the gutters in peace please....
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Fine, according to the dictionary definiton they are Iraqis. But in the context of "Iraqis are fighting alongside the US", they are not "Iraqis". The majority of US efforts are concentrated on areas inhabited by the Shia and Sunnis, not the Kurds in the north. So, if you are trying to say that the locals are helping out, people are helping out but they are not the locals.
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Where did I say they were locals? I thought using the term KURDISH PESHMERGAS would have made it ****ing obvious they weren't locals helping out.
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Originally posted by Singh
argh.....politics.....
I hate politics......
If any of you become president, promis to just let me beg on the streets and sleep in the gutters in peace please....
:rolleyes:
Please. Politics is what runs the world. Despising all kind of politics and labeling all politicians as liars is not very adult of you, is it? :p
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Originally posted by Rictor
Fine, according to the dictionary definiton they are Iraqis. But in the context of "Iraqis are fighting alongside the US", they are not "Iraqis". The majority of US efforts are concentrated on areas inhabited by the Shia and Sunnis, not the Kurds in the north. So, if you are trying to say that the locals are helping out, people are helping out but they are not the locals.
Thats a circular arguement. Have you considered that the US aren't concentrating on the North precisely because the Kurds are their allies?
Don't start re-writing what Iraqi means just because you want to say all the iraqis hate America.
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Thats not what I said, and thats not what I intended to say. Nevermind.
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Originally posted by Janos
:rolleyes:
Please. Politics is what runs the world. Despising all kind of politics and labeling all politicians as liars is not very adult of you, is it? :p
I hate politics cause of its sheer complexity and near uselessness when it comes to getting things done properly.......plus it only confuses me.....
And I didnt label all politicians as liars.....you just put those words in my mouth, which might I point out, is not very adult of you.