Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Stealth on April 26, 2004, 06:30:56 pm
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I'm having an argument with a friend... He says that in all fights, speed is what wins, regardless of how physically strong or big the opponent is. I say that's not true, physical size and strength is a very, very big deal. I obviously agree that with martial art training, the odds will be evened more, but he insists that speed is what will win a fight.
I.e. the average big guy vs. the average fast guy, the fast guy will win.
What do you think?
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Definitely semtex.
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Pure animal agression. Crazy man psycho violence. Well, that or semtex...
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it depends.
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:lol:
Speed is most useful when avoiding a fight, I always find :)
Stamina, it's as simple as that, it's not a question of who does the best looking punch etc, etc, at the end of the day, the winner of any fight is the last man standing :)
And an ability to realise you are not in the movies and kick them in the groin before they've finished their 'line' works rather well, as I found out once whilst in the city ;) I suppose that counts as speed :D
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a sub-machine gun. it gets your point across rather well
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whenever i'm in a fight i usualy use my bat with barbed-wire.
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Originally posted by Stealth
I.e. the average big guy vs. the average fast guy, the fast guy will win.
totally correct, here's why...
the smaller guy has less weight to throw in a punch, he can therefore deliver a blow with greater speed. Since energy*speed==mass, the small guy's blows can deliver a greater impact over time as he suffers less from energy loss during the production of the blow than the big guy who tires earlier.
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But, the small guy has to be lucky enough to avoid the larger mans blows all the time, if he gets hit once, for every, say, five punches, and takes 6 times as much relative damage, he'll go down first, not to mention he 'may' have less stamina in the first place ;)
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umm, i think he means big as in strong, and therefore the strong guy would deliver faster blows.
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Well with speed you it doesn't matter how strong you are...
you can still chop through brick with speed, while it helps to be strong:D
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guys guys guys, please. keep it either one or the other. i'm sure most of you would rather have a loaded gun in a fight than speed or strength, but just for my point, can you pretend it's 1v1?
and whoever said stamina... wtf? one hard punch and you're knocked out, stamina or no stamina.
the smaller guy has less weight to throw in a punch, he can therefore deliver a blow with greater speed. Since energy*speed==mass, the small guy's blows can deliver a greater impact over time as he suffers less from energy loss during the production of the blow than the big guy who tires earlier.
so wait, the small, fast guy, with no martial arts skill (see my first post) will either block or dodge each and every punch the big guy throws at him? highly unlikely. and one punch from the big guy will do a LOT more damage than one punch from the small guy
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and yes, Carl... the argument is:
Small, Skinny, FAST guy vs Big (not fat), Strong guy
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Stealth, in fighting, Stamina means your ability to absorb hard punches, so excuse me if I smile at your comment :D
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Originally posted by Stealth
one hard punch and you're knocked out, stamina or no stamina.
Funny, you should say that
Here is a story :D
In the cafeteria at school, my friends were throwing little sausages at people and I have my head down, almost asleep (Its morning and I’m tired). A couple minutes later someone huge guy taped me on the soldier and said.
“Why were you throwing little smokies at us” I told him I wasn’t but he still pressed my buttons, as a rresult being really stupid, ignorant, and big headed, I got up and pushed him, he pushed me back towards the cafeteria’s double doors and the swung again. I never felt the punch, ONE HITTER QUITTER!!! He hit me right on the sweet spot on my chin and as soon as he hit everything was dark, never even felt it, although I could hear various noises while I was knocked out, Awwws.. And OOOOOhhs....and a big explosion. Then I woke up with a tacher in the hallway, shaking my @$$ off and the first words that came out of my mouth were. “ OH S***” confused and asking questions. 3 minutes later I was pulled out on the stretcher by the local EMS. Witnesses say that I hit the steel pole between the double doors of the cafeteria.
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Skill
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That is what you get when you have reflexes of sloth :D
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Uh...karma?
I'd say determination/will is most important myself...
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I'd say an even mix between the two...
Though, as you said, I'd much rather prefer a loaded rifle... :p
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Speed.
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I didnt pick either, cause neither of the choices guarantess a win. Speed equals power as well which skews results further.
Fighting depends on more then physical ability as well, cause a smart slow man has a good chance against a powerful slow man, however the powerful slow man might get lucky (a factor you cannot calculate BTW) and knock the smart fast man down in one shot.
This is why fights are fought, to see who wins there is no guarantees with reality, and fighting is one of the more gruesome realities of life. :D
As a martial artist ive seen many fights and been in many, and know that you cant say for certain who will win or lose and each time you get involved in one your better to be careful the confident no matter what power, speed or smarts you may have there is always one guy better. Ultimately the most powerful people are those who can talk their way out of a fight, that takes gaul and smarts more then anyone who just throws a punch IMO.
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Originally posted by JarC
Since energy*speed==mass, the small guy's blows can deliver a greater impact over time as he suffers less from energy loss during the production of the blow than the big guy who tires earlier.
That formula doesn't apply at such low speeds, especially to fights.
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you people (particularly you Lonestar) are forgetting that in real fights, whether you've had 2 days of martial arts training or two years, it usually doesn't make much (if any) of a difference... because when adrenhaline starts being pumped, you're super strong, and you don't think logically, you just think linearly. you don't think "wait a second, be calm, block his punch, then attack to the solar plexus"... you just go at them.
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I didnt pick either, cause neither of the choices guarantess a win. Speed equals power as well which skews results further
so if i go out to the streets, pick a skinny, fast little asian guy, then i go to the gym, pick a 6'4" 280 lb weight-lifter... the skinny asian guy's going to win? you're forgetting something...
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Speed counts if you know the right spots to hit. Stamina counts if you're just gonna start flinging punches left and right. If you hit someone in the right spot, it's friggin hell. I honestly dont know how someone can still be conscious after being hit smack dab in the nose. (at least for me) In my childhood, I was walking out of the front doors of my school, I think I was in 3rd grade or something, and slipping on some icy steps outside, almost literally taking a bite out of a metal pipe handrail. that hurt like hell. Recently, someone hid behind a door, and while walking through the door, this guy tried to tackle me, at least wrestle me to the floor, and accidentally flung the heel of his palm right into my nose. I havent seen that many stars since I smacked that handrail in my youth.
So, I would think that speed, with intent to go after someone's known weakness, or a generalized weak spot like a kidney shot, would result in the last man standing.
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The most important thing is not being where the fight takes place. Let your enemy fight your proxies whilst you sit back and watch from as far away as possible.
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yeah well mikhael, and everyone else: please remember this thread is not trying to get advice on what to do to win a fight, or how to beat your opponent. it's a simple question...
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Would be boring to just have a string of replies saying "Option 1" or "Option 2", wouldn't it.
mik: how cowardly. Smart, but cowardly. Also, we're not talking about governments here, most people don't have "proxies" to fight it out for them.
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Bull****. I can hire someone to do any fighting I'm likely to do, Rictor. I'm not in the armed forces anymore. If the fight is something I can't prepare for, I can always run. If I can't run, my only option left is to force my opponent to make a mistake. Speed, skill, strength, etc, are all tools to achieve that one end. Once they've made a mistake, I will win that exchange. All I have to do is make sure he makes more mistakes than I do.
Avoiding the risk of a fight does not represent cowardice, or a lack of courage. It represents a willingness to win in the least risky manner possible.
- cowardice
- the trait of lacking courage
- courage
- a quality of spirit that enables you to face danger of pain without showing fear
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I'd say speed... and no, the fact that I'm fast, but not big and strong has nothing to do with it.. ;)
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wow. you're all saying it's speed.
either it's ignorance, or none of you are "big and strong".
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speed is only useful when you have to skills to use it
fortunately I have both - i have subdued people significantly larger than me the moment they become agressive
lol.. one time a guy was getting agressive with me verbally, brought his hands up - reflexes went off - next thing i know i have him bent over a table arm twisted behind his back completely subdued - i don't remember moving, i remember his hands coming up and then the next thing i remember i have him bent over the table - needless to say I was rather suprised it was the fastest my reflexes had ever worked (and now i'm all the faster and more effective due to training)
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Originally posted by Kazan
speed is only useful when you have to skills to use it
Exactly!
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Power and strenth are only useful when you can land a strike.
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and speed is only useful when you've got the training to use it correctly
no one said the strong guy was a ****ing mental retard... it's not that hard to deliver a strike on someone with absolutely no martial or combat training, regardless how "fast" they are. they may (with luck) be able to dodge or block the first few punches, but one punch connected, and it's over.
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Yeh, if the speedy guy is dodging all the power, what good is it? But if you're saying Big Guy with Big Power and fast guy with speed punch eachother at the exact same time, who would win? In that case, I'd guess big power, since big power is um... powerful.
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For every argument you make one way or the other, there's a reciprocal argument that is pretty much EXACTLY as sound:
No one said the fast guy was a ****ing kleenex.. .its not that hard to deliver dodge a stike thrown by someone with no martial or combat training, regardless of how "strong" they are. They may (with luck) be able to hit onece or twice, but after missing enough, they'll run out of endurance, and it's over.
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Hmm, generally if you're stronger you're also quicker. Unless you're so bulky it slows you down.
Rather silly to say all power versus all speed since they rarely exist completely separate anyways.
A sickly skinny guy isn't going to be that quick. Even a quick guy won't be so much faster that the person with power can't land a blow.
If you're going add training into the equation, then the strong guy still has the advantage since training increases the speed as well as the strength of both the combatants. The quick guy still isn't going to be able to really dodge blows or land so much more.
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An assault bazooka... which fires poisonous acid piranhas!
I use either the old "run away"-trick or ugly "kick it into stomach, then beat the **** out of it with something hard".
And skinny guys are quick. I'm skinny, and all girls say I'm really quick. :(
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Kazan is right. Spped or strength don't matter if you don't know how to use it.
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Neither. The first one who hits wins. Well, I guess that can qualify as speed. A good kick in the shin-bone or the balls, and I tell you, no matter how fast or strong the dude is, he's history, period.
All the rest is nerd crap.
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The smarter guy... :nervous:
The one who spent time in the army long enough to know how to behave himself in a fight.
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Originally posted by Nico
Neither. The first one who hits wins. Well, I guess that can qualify as speed. A good kick in the shin-bone or the balls, and I tell you, no matter how fast or strong the dude is, he's history, period.
Depends, I remember a time when I told a guy in a bus to shut up. Guy punched me in the face. Instinctic reaction : I punched him too. Results : Me enjoying the quiet for the rest of the travel, he enjoying a little nap courtesy of myself :drevil:
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well, he didn't mean to harm you, then. Even a very weak guy, he punches you right in the nose, you won't fight back for half a minute. We ain't in movies, and you needn't punch hard so it hurts an awful lot, if you aim at the nose. Anyway, nothing beats the kick in the tibias, especially when you have Caterpilar shoes :p
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I'm no ninja but I have seen quite a lot of fights between regular guys and they always end up grappling each other, slamming themselves on the wall or on the floor with one guy (usually the bigger guy) on top of the other punching the guy under in the face.
I don't know about other situations but from what I noticed - it's the bigger and stronger guy who gets the upper hand.
On the other hand, among trained martial artists, the closest I ever saw kung fu and Jujitsu masters go at each other is watching matches of Ultimate Fighting Championships. These guys both have SPEED and POWER and I have seen some huge guys move fast - its scary.
But I noticed that good grapplers usually beat the punchers and kickers most of the time.
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[color=66ff00]Stealth are you talking generally? i.e. neither party is in any way trained to fight? If so I'd say the outcome will be coin toss material. As Nico said, whoever gets the first dig in.
If they're trained I believe that timing has a far greater influence on a fight than speed or strength.
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Sorry, no expertise over here. ;)
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I voted the first option.
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No expertise over here (that's what I voted), but I would think speed and stamina would win. If someone could dodge enough and take enough punches, then the other guy would get tired out, while the more stamina-gifted person would not be as tuckered out.
And, of course, the amount of speed you have would also allow you to land more punches than the big guy, because you have that opportunity to move quicker than he does.
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How is what i say wrong? I said that a fight must be fought to determine the winner, and you cant prejudge a fight. I dont care if you got 20 years martial arts vs a no good bum, they fight to see who wins cause its not a certainty no matter your training.
And yes a little skinny asian guy could be a 6'8" 280 pnd body builder easy, hell anyone here 280 pnds and wants to spar with a 160 pounder? Ill gladly do it and provide the place to do it to show you size and power mean nothing.
As far as adreniline is concerned it gives NO EDGE as both participants are filled with it, therefore its not a factor you can include in the equation at all.
I dont see how anyone can sit here and say that they can tell who will win a fight based on size, speed and power, saying that shows how inexperienced and wet behind the ears you really are.
Stamina is great and all, but ive seen guys who can fight ten minutes go down in 1 minute from a punch or kick they didnt quite expect which knocked them the f out. Ive also seen powerful guys get beat from getting too tired of punching, and ive seen small skinny guys get pummelled by slow big guys. Ive seen it all pretty much and guaranteed you cant determine an outcome in a fight, you must let them fight first.
Before youb ash me again, if your a big guy, and think you can win any fight, go pick a fight right now and tell me if you won. And you skinny weak folk, go pick a fight with a big guy, and watch how you can dance circles around them, all the same dont let them grab you or your dead meat.
Moral of the story? Fights are fought to determine a winner, size, power, speed, stamina and mind mean nothing, what you do is what means something. Until something is done you cant judge a winner. Even boxing pro's concede a fight is fought to determine a winner, and if it was as easy as guessing who would win there would be no boxing association, they wouldnt fight and they would just vote in the best fighter. They dont do that do they? No they get guys to fight it out to see who wins. So sitting here debating what is better when any one of those features could be the deciding factor for any one fight is ridiculous.
Who will win the fight between the fast skinny guy and the big strong slow guy? Cant answer that, cause the skinny fast guy might get 100 shots in before the slow strong guy, or the slow strong guy might grab the skinny guy and bend him in half, cant tell what will happen thought, cause mind and reaction have a play in this whole scene. So who will win? Gonna have to watch and find out.
Anyone ever spar? Anyone ever fought someone smaller or bigger then them? If you answer yes to either of these then you know for a fact a fight cant be predicted period.
Bash me all you want, fact is im right.
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
No expertise over here (that's what I voted), but I would think speed and stamina would win. If someone could dodge enough and take enough punches, then the other guy would get tired out, while the more stamina-gifted person would not be as tuckered out.
And, of course, the amount of speed you have would also allow you to land more punches than the big guy, because you have that opportunity to move quicker than he does.
what if the small fast guy tripped, or missed? Then the big guy grabs him in his moment of weakness and crushes him like a fly? Fight is over, small guy loses.
it could go either way, hence why a fight is fought.
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Sucks that I have no beef with anyone around where I live, I can't go get in any fights :D
EDIT: And Lonestar's right, a fight can go either way. That's why I'd prefer to fight against some big, muscular and fast guy who has no idea what he's doing, than some quick little guy who knows jujitsu. It's all about experience and skill.
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
Sucks that I have no beef with anyone around where I live, I can't go get in any fights :D
EDIT: And Lonestar's right, a fight can go either way. That's why I'd prefer to fight against some big, muscular and fast guy who has no idea what he's doing, than some quick little guy who knows jujitsu. It's all about experience and skill.
There is some small percentage of luck and circumstance that could change a fight quickly as well as the other more obvious circumstances and specs.
As for getting into fights, its not hard. You would be surprised how many willing fighters you can find in your neighbourhood.....however the best fighter knows how to walk away without ever having to fight. If your real good you can defend yourself whithout hurting your enemy, nothing more demoralizing then someone trying to hit you but is unable too. That is ultimate defeat in my eyes, not beating a man physically but beating him mentally is ,IMO, the best way to beat any man. Ive made people cry cause they couldnt hit me, only then did i realize the power of defense.
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My neighborhood? Try middle-class white suburbia, with one entrance and almost no kids within 10 minutes walking distance of me :D (most of the houses here are really spread out, after all, it is an island :D)
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I agree with Cabbie, I've seen a fair few fights in my time, and most of them involve a lot of shouting, followed by pushing, usually followed by possibly one or two punches and then onto the wrestling match usually, where hair is being pulled, people are biting, headbutting and punching anything that isn't attached to their own bodies.
Ah yes, the Gentlemanly art :D
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**** speed and power shoot the ***** to death.:p
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yet you guys (particularly you Lonestar) are still forgetting that speed is useless if it's got no training. go pick the average fast guy off the street, and punch him 10 times, and see how many of those punches (with no martial arts or fighting experience mind you) he blocks. i'll bet he won't even block 2.
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Ive made people cry cause they couldnt hit me, only then did i realize the power of defense.
hehe. that's funny. amazing how this board is so full of martial artists
and Lonestar... i never knew you were a martial artist. c'mon, let's have some stats: arts trained in, experience, etc.
EDIT:
the skinny fast guy might get 100 shots in before the slow strong guy
just because he's big does not mean he's slow. you should know that, being a martial artist and all
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I hate to say it, but a big huge buff guy with one punch would end the fight, but it take the little guy about 50. Get my drift?
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Shotokan - Sensei was Mick Billman, 6th Dan, and some guy called Rick, who was 8th Dan, can't remember his surname now. Got to Brown and White belt, they have these wierd mini-stages between brown and black.
Wing-Chun - Studied with the Risen Arts foundation, my trainers included Spencer Devine, and old friend of mine, one day, I'll give him a call and see if he can send me one of his promo VCDs :) They never gave out any accolades, you just got as good as you got. Also did 2 8-hour training seminars with Master Sken, I had bruises for days :(
I guess I know enough to know that fights aren't like they look in the movies, and that you cannot dodge punches like Neo dodges bullets. Wing Chun has a technique called 'Sticky Hands' that allows you to continuously block opponents, for longer periods of time, the trick is timing your attack, it doesn't have to be a hard punch, it just has to be in the right place ;)
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The most important thing in any fight is intelligence and calm.
Things happen slower when you're calm because you can think quicker.
So regardless of how strong or fast you are, you can realise an opportunity and end any fight with a single punch to the throat.
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Speed is nothing if the guy doesnt have the power to do any real damage, and its kinda hard to single out a specific weak point to your opponent. And big guys can often move just as fast the as the "fast guy" in a closed in area (most fights ive ever seen have been that way).
Im reminded of, well, just about every time someones hit me (generally chest or gut). Im a pretty big guy, and the result is virtually every time that they hurt their hand more than me.
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Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
Speed is nothing if the guy doesnt have the power to do any real damage
No...not really
If you know where to hit him then and can do it fast enough...
From personal experience, like Anonsaid "The most important thing in any fight is intelligence and calm." and it helps to be cooridinated <==== Beleive me, it does
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Originally posted by jdjtcagle
No...not really
If you know where to hit him then and can do it fast enough...
From personal experience, like Anonsaid "The most important thing in any fight is intelligence and calm." and it helps to be cooridinated <==== Beleive me, it does
I never said calm and coordination werent helpful, they are absolutely. But, not everybody has these particular qualities, and this is a comparison of size/power vs speed.
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I have some natural talent
but my instructor is Grandmaster Yong Chin Pak - 7th Dan in Tae Kwon Do, 6th Dan in Hapkido and 6th Dan in Judo
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I can agree with that
just look at that one dude from Oklahoma, can't remember his name tho
But, I know he died from AIDS
Anyway, he dominated with strength :nod:
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If it's a choice between strength and speed, my personal choice is strength.
Because speed is for people who are scared of getting hurt.
I can take one HELL of a beat without it even fazing me, so my priority in a fight is being strong enough to pick someone up, throw them to the ground, then jump on their heads and kick them in the throat till they stop twitching.
Works like a goddamn charm.
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quite recently, a really big friend of mine was the victim of a little joke. i saw the whole thing. a guy i know, real fast, ran behind him, shouldered him into a bunch of lockers, and dashed off down the hall. it took my friend from 5 to 7 seconds to close the distance and nearly break the poor guy over his knee.
Goes to show what a really good flow of adrenaline can do for you.
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I once chased someone down with a mildly sprained knee.
Once I gets meself into a fightin' mood, I tend to ignore all pain until whomever caused it is thoroughly bleeding.
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Bruce Lee : D