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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tiara on May 01, 2004, 05:36:20 am

Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Tiara on May 01, 2004, 05:36:20 am
Quote
From CNN.com.

EU welcomes 10 new members

Prodi: Largest-ever expansion heals Cold War divisions
Saturday, May 1, 2004 Posted: 12:39 AM EDT (0439 GMT)

(http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/europe/04/30/eu.enlargement/vert.malta.fireworks.jpg)
Fireworks and searchlights light up Malta's harbor Friday night.

BRUSSELS, Belgium (CNN) -- Capitals across Europe celebrated Friday night and into Saturday morning as the European Union marked the largest expansion in its history.

Ten new members, eight of them formerly under communist rule, joined the EU at midnight CET (2200 GMT), but celebrations began earlier in countries farther east. The accession unites Eastern and Western Europe, patching rifts left by World War II and the Cold War.

The new member states are Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia. The additions bring the EU's population to 450 million, making it the world's largest trading bloc.

At the Italian-Slovenian border, European Commission President Romano Prodi presided over a reunification ceremony in the Italian town of Gorizia and the Slovenian town of Nova Goricia, divided by an iron fence since the end of World War II.

Prodi said, in Italian, "Today's enlargement is the fifth and the largest in the history of the union, and I am convinced that it will not be the last. Other European countries and nations will decide to join our undertaking until the whole continent is unified in peace and democracy," Reuters reported.

In Poland, the largest new EU member, a chorus sang in a Warsaw square and a video screen showed scenes of Poland's climb from post-World War II destruction through communist domination to democratic rule.

President Aleksander Kwasniewski told the crowd, "Ladies and gentlemen, we are making history ... Today our dream is becoming reality. Poland is returning to its European family," Reuters reported.

At the German-Polish border, the hoisting of the EU flag was accompanied by fireworks and the "Ode to Joy" from Beethoven's Ninth Symphony.

A two-hour concert at the Berliner Konzerthaus and an open-air stage in Warsaw symbolically linked the two cities, and featured performers from the newest EU states.

In Malta, part of "Ca Ira (It Will be Fine)," a new opera by former Pink Floyd singer Roger Waters, was accompanied by lasers, floodlights and fireworks. Giant images were projected on the city's historic fortress walls, and boats with sails representing EU members' flags floated below.

The Berlin, Warsaw and Malta concerts were part of the celebration arranged by the EU, and were carried on live television in 30 countries.

"We are not expecting charity," one Lithuanian reveler speaking English told Reuters. "We are hard-working people, and we will work, we will catch up with the rest of Europe, and quite soon we will do it."

In Cyprus, Greek Cypriots celebrated the event, but Reuters reported that reaction was muted in the island's north, where the breakaway Turkish cypriot state was left behind after a reunification vote failed last week.

On Saturday, the leaders of all 25 EU countries will gather for a largely ceremonial summit in Dublin. The Republic of Ireland holds the six-month rotating EU presidency.

On the eve of the celebrations, Prodi declared that the divisions of the Cold War had been removed once and for all.

"We are bringing into the EU family 10 new member states and 75 million new EU citizens," the UK Press Association quoted Prodi as saying.

"Five decades after our great project of European integration began, we are celebrating the fact that Europeans are no longer kept apart by artificial ideological barriers.

"We share the same destiny and we are stronger when we act together. I urge all Europeans to join in celebrations of this astonishing achievement."

The commission is spending about 6 million euros ($7 million) on the enlargement celebrations.

The EU began with six member states, becoming nine in 1973 with the arrival of the UK, Ireland and Denmark.


(http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/europe/04/30/eu.enlargement/story.eu.cake.hungary.ap.jpg)
Hungarian confectioner Lajos Kopcsik decorates a giant EU cake next to sugar euro coin for weekend festivities.


Greece followed in 1981, and Portugal and Spain in 1986. Austria, Sweden and Finland made in 15 in 1995.

"May 1 will be a milestone in the history of Europe," EU Enlargement Commissioner Guenter Verheugen said.

"It is Europe's response to the end of the Cold War and an opportunity to heal the wounds of the past, wounds of war and dictatorship," Reuters quoted Verheugen as saying in Warsaw.

The enlargement crowns efforts by Poland and Germany to overcome the past. They are the largest old and new members of the EU, with about 80 million and 40 million citizens, respectively.


Just thought i'd mention this :)
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Assassin on May 01, 2004, 05:55:07 am
:D
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Xelion on May 01, 2004, 06:20:23 am
Preconceptions aside, I think this is a good sign for Europe as a whole :D. Hopefully some good will come out of these relations in the next decade or so as well :nod:.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Janos on May 01, 2004, 06:30:33 am
No it isn't.

Now we can't decide anything over even the simplest things. We need more federalism (which I hope the new countries will head for) and less Franco-German-Italo nationalist stupidity.

Soon we can't even decide whether sea water is salty or not, because as Portugal declares sea water perfectly good, Lithuanians tell us that it has ATOMS and Sweden wants to negotiate. Italy declares that all sea water in the world belongs to it. France and Germany pull a stunt and announce that they will dry the seas once and for all. Estonia proceeds to ban Russian seawater. Finland tells that "while draining all the seas could have some influence for our international stance, we still should just stay aside and be quiet".
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: vyper on May 01, 2004, 07:12:07 am
Crassly put arguments aside, this is not what I'd call a day to celebrate. Well it is if you're in those countries, but not if you're in the country that'll foot the bill for most of this - the UK.

Of course, that will mean a substantial tax hike because every penny UK tax payers put into Europe, Spain takes the exact same amount out.

I suddenly have the desire to vote conservative.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Ghostavo on May 01, 2004, 07:16:59 am
:lol:

Hopefully it will bring something good for Europe.

25 members... it has a nice "ring" to it doesn't it? :D
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Stunaep on May 01, 2004, 07:19:14 am
Yep, we're in the EU now.

Of course, you've already started harassing us, by signing trade treaties with Russia, which state that both sides must respect the human rights of minorities (again I state, a TRADE treaty with RUSSIA), and only thanks to the stern NO!'s of the baltic states, weren't we mentioned by name in the pact.

For those unaware (which probably would be the most), Russia has since the fall of the Soviet Union accused Estonia for requiring a language exam for those Russians without Estonian citizenship, who live here (because they were brought here by the soviets during the 50 years of occupation), should be given citizenship. This comes from a country, whose citizens prefer to live here without a citizenship, than there with one.

So now, this new treaty with the EU, even though it annuls the double-tolls with russia, that Russia forced on us after the break of the USSR, they still can harass us about not respecting the human rights of russian citizens living here (because the life in Russia sucks to much for them to actually go back).

Mostly, the new countries need a bit more backbone to stand up to all the standardised **** EU is forcing on us (such as not allowing to call milk with less than 3.5% fat in it 'milk'.)

Otherwise, it's great. I can now go to study in Sorbonne and pay a whooooolleeee lot less than I should have 3 years ago.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Tiara on May 01, 2004, 07:20:22 am
Quote
Originally posted by Janos
No it isn't.

Yes it is. Maybe not in the short-term but most certainly in the long run. Thats the whole point of them joining. Sure, in the beginning they have very little to contribute but with the free trade within the EU it won't take very long before those countries start to contribute themselves. It's a trade-off. A good one from my perspective.

On their own they are crap (I apologize to anyone living there :p). They have little to no outside help besides when it suits those who want to 'help'. Now they have a chance to thrive themselves.

Besides, if anything they serve as a nice shield and early warning system against any Communist invasions :D
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: vyper on May 01, 2004, 07:23:40 am
[q]free trade within the EU[/q]

My dear Tiara, if all this was, was a matter of  trade then I'd be perfectly happy. Unfortunately we know what it's about - a unified Europe as one nation. Which, I should tell you, is not a popular idea here in Britland. Well, unless your name is Tony and you plan to be a key player in it.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Tiara on May 01, 2004, 07:28:24 am
Quote
Originally posted by vyper
[q]free trade within the EU[/q]

My dear Tiara, if all this was, was a matter of  trade then I'd be perfectly happy. Unfortunately we know what it's about - a unified Europe as one nation. Which, I should tell you, is not a popular idea here in Britland. Well, unless your name is Tony and you plan to be a key player in it.

Well, why should I care what you Brits think? Really, after the past few years of arrogance towards the mainland it means exactly **** to us if you want to be excluded from the EU in its entirety for all we care.

Really, the EU isn't that old yet. It's bound to have serious flaws like any nation has the first few decades of it's existence. You can't expect an entire continent of different nations to magically conform to a single nation. It's not like we are a recently colonized continent like the US was.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Janos on May 01, 2004, 07:29:15 am
Tiara and vyper: Free trade is one thing. Whether this makes EU strong and politically capable is another.

I am a federalist, and have now more problems than ever. How can we possibly elect a governing element that is democratic and pays attention to 25 different countries? Can the good of the union surpass good of a single country (which would almost inevitable happen to be someone minor one)? Actually, I would be all in for somekind of Scandinavian/Fennoscandian Union, and let's take Baltic states in it also.

edit:
Quote
Tiara sprouted this out
Well, why should I care what you Brits think? Really, after the past few years of arrogance towards the mainland it means exactly **** to us if you want to be excluded from the EU in its entirety for all we care.

:rolleyes: Well, Britain is part of EU. If EU focuses on nitpicking and sassing each other over trivial things (maybe this isn't such, but whaever), a strong unified policy and harmony can never be found. You have actually stated why current EU is at this moment unable to operate. Why should France care what Estonians think? Well, maybe because they now share the same basics France works on!
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Tiara on May 01, 2004, 07:31:17 am
Quote
Originally posted by Janos
Tiara and vyper: Free trade is one thing. Whether this makes EU strong and politically capable is another.

Quote
Originally posted by Tiara
Really, the EU isn't that old yet. It's bound to have serious flaws like any nation has the first few decades of it's existence. You can't expect an entire continent of different nations to magically conform to a single nation. It's not like we are a recently colonized continent like the US was.


Quote
I am a federalist, and have now more problems than ever. How can we possibly elect a governing element that is democratic and pays attention to 25 different countries? Can the good of the union surpass good of a single country (which would almost inevitable happen to be someone minor one)? Actually, I would be all in for somekind of Scandinavian/Fennoscandian Union, and let's take Baltic states in it also.

That would so work against everything that would make Europe even a little bit powerfull :p It's all or nothing.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Janos on May 01, 2004, 07:36:26 am
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara

 That would so work against everything that would make Europe even a little bit powerfull :p It's all or nothing.


what

I mean, what. Free trade is all and well, but steadily increasing the number of different countries in an union that should work even somehow can't but just backfire. The pre-enlargement status of the EU was already quite poor, as everyone just played the domestic issue card all the time (Italy shooting down WRITTEN PROMISES and so on). Even though I believe that this propably will benefit everyone economically, I think that politically this will further weaken the EU. Noticed the breakdown in inter-EU relations before the current Iraq quagmire? Imagine such things on larger scale. Ugh.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: vyper on May 01, 2004, 07:41:08 am
[q]Well, why should I care what you Brits think? Really, after the past few years of arrogance towards the mainland it means exactly **** to us if you want to be excluded from the EU in its entirety for all we care.[/q]

Because we do more trade with mainland Europe, than mainland Europe does with us. :D

As for our past few years of arrogance, I'd like you to explain what you are referring to? We're the ones having our fishing fleet raped for the sake of mainland Europe. We're the ones who's own government can be over-ruled by a mainland european court. We're the ones who have ended up with asylum seekers that france let through so they wouldn't have to deal with them.

I think we're the ones up **** creek to be honest. Britain will quite happily have nothing to do with your new "nation", because we cherish some ideals Europe doesn't. I'd start with freedom for one. (and this is absolutely NO reference to any allegiance to the US, the war on terror (!), the invasion of iraq, or another ****e that Europeans have a go at the Brits over)
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Tiara on May 01, 2004, 07:42:46 am
Quote
Originally posted by Janos


what

I mean, what. Free trade is all and well, but steadily increasing the number of different countries in an union that should work even somehow can't but just backfire. The pre-enlargement status of the EU was already quite poor, as everyone just played the domestic issue card all the time (Italy shooting down WRITTEN PROMISES and so on). Even though I believe that this propably will benefit everyone economically, I think that politically this will further weaken the EU. Noticed the breakdown in inter-EU relations before the current Iraq quagmire? Imagine such things on larger scale. Ugh.

I think you are looking at it a bit too... shallow.

And again; I say that the EU needs time to find its place, to grow. Nobody even gives it a chance. They EU acts on so many fronts you really can't expect them to be perfect in a matter of years. A few of these fronst are:

Agriculture
Budget
Competition
Consumers
Culture
Customs
Development
Economic and Monetary Affairs
Education, Training, Youth
Employment and Social Affairs
Energy
Enlargement
Enterprise
Environment
External Relations
External Trade
Fisheries
Food Safety
Foreign and Security Policy
Fraud
Humanitarian aid
Human rights
Information Society
Internal Market
Justice and Home Affairs
Public Health
Regional Policy
Research and Innovation
Taxation
Transport  

Now, if you have a plan to get all this correct within the next 20 years without stepping on too many toes tell me. Or if you have a good plan to 'unify' Europe within the next decade, TELL ME.

It isn't as easy as it sounds. You don't 'just form a world power'.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: vyper on May 01, 2004, 07:47:36 am
[q]You don't 'just form a world power'.[/q]

You aren't meant to be forming one in the first place you're supposed to be forming a market place. :lol:
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Tiara on May 01, 2004, 07:49:15 am
Quote
Originally posted by vyper
Because we do more trade with mainland Europe, than mainland Europe does with us. :D

So... you trade more with us then we with you... Ok, then we don't need you. Basically, the EU is a trade-bloc that can function perfectly on its own and even overpowers the US in trade power. We sure as hell don't 'need' Britland in this to sustain us.

Quote
As for our past few years of arrogance, I'd like you to explain what you are referring to? We're the ones having our fishing fleet raped for the sake of mainland Europe. We're the ones who's own government can be over-ruled by a mainland european court. We're the ones who have ended up with asylum seekers that france let through so they wouldn't have to deal with them.

Fishing fleets raped? Gov.. blablablabla? So, you should try to compete with us if you really don't like us. Ow, wait, you can't... you don't have the power to do so. Or join us if you want to have it too. Don't wanna be with us, tough f'ing luck. Thats life.

Quote
I think we're the ones up **** creek to be honest. Britain will quite happily have nothing to do with your new "nation", because we cherish some ideals Europe doesn't. I'd start with freedom for one. (and this is absolutely NO reference to any allegiance to the US, the war on terror (!), the invasion of iraq, or another ****e that Europeans have a go at the Brits over)

Ok, the mere mentioning that we don't value freedom is unsulting to the extreme and I won't dignify that with a response.

The fact that you don't like us is because you don't have the power to compete. The British 'world-power' is no longer a real 'world-power'.

It's ironic really. Because many say that Europe has no power. Yet thats the reason why many hate the EU... Go figure :doubt:
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Tiara on May 01, 2004, 07:50:59 am
Quote
Originally posted by vyper
[q]You don't 'just form a world power'.[/q]

You aren't meant to be forming one in the first place you're supposed to be forming a market place. :lol:

You just misinterpeted my arguments. This is the START of a world power. You don't just start out with a world power you need a FOUNDATION. Which is exactly what we have. And even that foundation makes Britland look really really small.

That clear enough?
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Janos on May 01, 2004, 07:51:50 am
Hey, I just said I don't think all these problems could be solved even in smaller union, let alone this behemoth we now have. I would be in for smaller unions with localized goverment. If I go optimistic, I say that maybe easing on the national rights could help a lot (it's essentially against the mood of current EU and does not help it at all).

Also, happily bunking the stability pacts, GG Germany, has not increased my trust on EU. If we punish small countries for democratically electing maybe repulsive leader and let a certain large country slip on towards some kind of semi-fascist goverment, where PM also controls most of the mass media, we [EU are stepping on dangerous lines. Hypocricy disgusts me.

While I am more than happy to give EU a chance, I do not believe it will work as anything else than a trade zone much longer.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: vyper on May 01, 2004, 07:55:20 am
:lol: Tiara it's a cultural thing - Britain would rather **** itself in the wind than give up it's sovreignty to a foreign power. We value the sacrifice our grandfathers and such made during two world wars too much to just throw it away.

If you think, btw, that the EU will be a "superpower" capable of taking on America you're delusional. 40 years of establishing power bases in ways you and I cannot even comprehend (nor probably want to) gives the US a strategic economic advantage that the EU will never be able to compete with.

Britain might miss the short term gains, but we'll take the spoils when all the dust settles.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: vyper on May 01, 2004, 07:57:46 am
[q]That clear enough?[/q]

You just dont. get. it.

The EU was never meant to be anything more than a free market bloc - nothing more, not the foundation for a superpower.

Jesus, talk about delusions of grandeur.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Janos on May 01, 2004, 07:59:05 am
I see great things rising of EU when three citizens of three member countries can't even communicate clearly or find a common point about what they think EU should be... ON AN INTERNET DISCUSSION BOARD! :lol:
Spoiler:
As representives of thouse contries as long as anyone else steps to take part on the discussion we are thus also representives of EU citizens, lol
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Stunaep on May 01, 2004, 08:00:39 am
Well, yeah, actually the thing that the EU doesn't seem to understand, is that you cannot force standards on 30 countries of *very* different backgrounds. Naturally that causes problems. Standards on this big a scale don't work. The interests of all the countries are too different.

So, IMO, the EU needs to find the line, where the common laws start conflicting with every nation so much, that they stop trying to compromise. If they push over that, either the EU will fall, or some of the smaller nations will die out. Either way, it could get ugly, so I'll hope the EU politicians find out where to draw the line.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: vyper on May 01, 2004, 08:00:55 am
[q]As representives of thouse contries as long as anyone else steps to take part on the discussion we are thus also representives of EU citizens, lol[/q]

I feel violated.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Stunaep on May 01, 2004, 08:02:08 am
Quote
Originally posted by vyper
[q]That clear enough?[/q]

You just dont. get. it.

The EU was never meant to be anything more than a free market bloc - nothing more, not the foundation for a superpower.

Jesus, talk about delusions of grandeur.


It wasn't meant to be nothing more than a free market bloc *when it was founded*. It's gone past that a long time ago.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: vyper on May 01, 2004, 08:04:00 am
Yeah but the people of this country or any of the member states voted to back a free market bloc, when it goes beyond that a new choice should be offered to them - not rammed down thier throats by MEPs.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Tiara on May 01, 2004, 08:08:42 am
Quote
Originally posted by vyper
[q]That clear enough?[/q]

You just dont. get. it.

The EU was never meant to be anything more than a free market bloc - nothing more, not the foundation for a superpower.

Jesus, talk about delusions of grandeur.

*sigh* :sigh: You're the one who isn't getting it. Well, maybe neither of us gets it (over a mesage board :p). Anyway, I'm not going to discuss this any further cuz it'll only end up in a fight. Neither of us can really explain what they mean over a message board anyway :p
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: vyper on May 01, 2004, 08:14:46 am
S'all right I want a cuppa anyway. At least thats something most people in the EU have in common.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: castor on May 01, 2004, 08:31:15 am
Everything is always moving and changing, including cultures in larger scale.
Steps forward or steps backwards.. I think this is the way to go.
May take a lifetime or two of struggle to get it half working, but anyways.

Welcome to all new members :)
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Janos on May 01, 2004, 08:34:03 am
Well, I am happy that Baltic states finally joined. Even though I am a bit worried about their enviroment - they have retained a small and very idyllic piece of old European agriculture, which serves as a safe haven for many bird species' northern populations.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: kode on May 01, 2004, 08:38:56 am
yeah, great for the baltics, I guess. of course, had I been old enough to vote ten years ago, I'd have voted against sweden joining.

oh, and yay for the czech republic and slovakia too.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Rictor on May 01, 2004, 09:19:30 am
The beast grows.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Nico on May 01, 2004, 09:54:18 am
Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep
Well, yeah, actually the thing that the EU doesn't seem to understand, is that you cannot force standards on 30 countries of *very* different backgrounds. Naturally that causes problems. Standards on this big a scale don't work. The interests of all the countries are too different.


:wtf:
The countries that want to join the EU are not forced to do so. They know what they'll be asked to do, they know both the pros and the cons of the deal. Force standards? No: the countries CHOOSE those standards. Colossal difference, my friend.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: SadisticSid on May 01, 2004, 10:42:29 am
Funnily enough if Britain left the EU we would still have the advantages of free trade with member states. If Labour promised to secede from it at the next election I'd probably vote for them; for now, however, the Tories are the safest bet, ideologically and policy-wise. I wish they'd cull all the old Europhiles like Heseltine, Clarke and Portillo, though.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: an0n on May 01, 2004, 11:18:29 am
Well, there goes the neighbourhood.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Stunaep on May 01, 2004, 11:28:21 am
Quote
Originally posted by Nico


:wtf:
The countries that want to join the EU are not forced to do so. They know what they'll be asked to do, they know both the pros and the cons of the deal. Force standards? No: the countries CHOOSE those standards. Colossal difference, my friend.


Yes, only a good deal of those standards were made *after* the decisions to join the EU were made, signed, and delivered. Same thing as with vyper's problem - once you're in, there's pretty much nothing you can do, if the EU screws you over.

Well, actually, there is, most of the more stupid limits can safely be ignored (I'd like to see the bloke who comes to check, if we've renamed our 2.5% milk to "a milky drink", or some such stupidity).

Same with, for example, the Euro. Swedes were given the option to choose whether they want the Euro or not. We? Our politicians don't have the spine to hold a referendum. So they simply take it matter-of-factly.

But don´t get me wrong here, I'm still pro-EU. It'll definately enrich the cultural diversity of Europe, even if it messes up the life quality here in Estonia for a few years. And this at least gives us some degree of certainty, that the russians won't just come in 5 years and screw us over (with their "attack and liberate the neighboring countries that treat russians badly" statement they've made and all), and travelling certainly becomes easier. To me it's choosing between a bad option, and a mediocre option, with the possiblility of becoming a good option.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Nico on May 01, 2004, 11:56:52 am
Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep


1) Yes, only a good deal of those standards were made *after* the decisions to join the EU were made, signed, and delivered. Same thing as with vyper's problem - once you're in, there's pretty much nothing you can do, if the EU screws you over.

2) Well, actually, there is, most of the more stupid limits can safely be ignored (I'd like to see the bloke who comes to check, if we've renamed our 2.5% milk to "a milky drink", or some such stupidity).

3) Same with, for example, the Euro. Swedes were given the option to choose whether they want the Euro or not. We? Our politicians don't have the spine to hold a referendum. So they simply take it matter-of-factly.

4)  But don´t get me wrong here, I'm still pro-EU. It'll definately enrich the cultural diversity of Europe, even if it messes up the life quality here in Estonia for a few years. And this at least gives us some degree of certainty, that the russians won't just come in 5 years and screw us over (with their "attack and liberate the neighboring countries that treat russians badly" statement they've made and all), and travelling certainly becomes easier. To me it's choosing between a bad option, and a mediocre option, with the possiblility of becoming a good option.


1) No. There's been additions, but the goals are pretty clear, and so it's pretty clear to guess how the exigences will evolve. The UE has not been defined right after all those countries decided to join, you know.

2) I don't know anything about that, to be honest :). I con't care less anyway, that's just butt ****ing flies. There's more anoying deals, believe me ( You know somebody working in the... don't know in english, any job that has to do with building buildings ), or public recreation. Check the safety requirements. I know they're important, but there's ines not to cross, when overdone requirements threaten the future of said company/association/whatever. THAT is more annoying. Believe me, some are really crazy and stupid.

3) Well, even if you say so, the Euro is a good thing, the strongest currency nowadays, btw. I just don't get people who are against it.

4) I'm pro euro too, to an extent. That aside, the main fact that many people don't really get is that the UE stuff is/will be a pain for many years to come. Because that's a long process endeavour. It can't be perfect from the begining, and to get a working thing, yo HAVE to make choices that will benefit the UE setup, but will make people unhappy.
I'll take the France exemple, coz that's the only one I know. France is a special case, much like Germany. Because we have a strong part of our economy based on farm products ( cheese, butcher's meat, stuff like that, which is massively exportated ), we kind of suffer a lot from many of the EU decisions. On the other hand, like Germany, we're kind of a leading country of the EU, and we often enforce our own politics over the EU ones. For exemple, the government we have now is working a lot on cleaning the social and economical problems we have ( clearing debts, stuff like that ). And there's very drastic decisions made that don't please many french people ( that's new to me, to be honest, coz usually, french politicians suck up to people to stay in their positions as long as it is possible, which leads to stuff getting worse, and worse ). All that costs a lot, so we don't exactly meet the EU requirements for annual budget balances and alike ( by "not exactly", I mean we're completly off :p ). But wether they like it or not, they can't say much, after all :p
The general consensus here is that EU objectives should be adapted to the country and the times. If we were to follow the directives to the letter, France economical situation would only get worse. The EU deal works fine for an economicaly sane country. Which is not the case right now for about all the members of the Union.
All that to say that you can't expect things to get brighter right away, you can't expect, maybe, any good outcome out of this for the time being. It's a long due process that will probably disgust most people, but I do believe it's going the right way, we just have to be patient.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Bobboau on May 01, 2004, 12:07:13 pm
"any job that has to do with building buildings "
construction? masonry?
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: SadisticSid on May 01, 2004, 12:12:45 pm
Actually France benefits a lot from the EU's common agricultural policy and its subsidies - it's the British farmers who get screwed by it. Our chancellor isn't a competent economist but even he sees that it has to be torn up.

It's perfectly logical to be pro-Europe in a climate where the EU would benefit you and your surroundings. But in Britain all we see are countless EU regulations on things like metric measurement and the number of vitamin pills people can sell in one bottle. As for the Euro argument, particularly the smaller countries are now part of a stronger currency held up by Germany and France. In the UK, whose economic interests lie mostly in the tertiary sector, and whose most influential assets are tied with financial services, the Euro is a very bad idea. The pound is already strong and hasn't really fluctuated since the disaster of the ERM.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Shinobi on May 01, 2004, 12:19:07 pm
Quote
Originally posted by vyper
[q]free trade within the EU[/q]

Unfortunately we know what it's about - a unified Europe as one nation. Which, I should tell you, is not a popular idea here in Britland. Well, unless your name is Tony and you plan to be a key player in it.


"Tony Blair for President!" :doubt:
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Stunaep on May 01, 2004, 12:24:57 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Nico


3) Well, even if you say so, the Euro is a good thing, the strongest currency nowadays, btw. I just don't get people who are against it.



The only problem is, that even though the Estonian economy is growing faster than the EU average, the hit that a currency reform will take on prices (averaging the sums, the capitalist way, etc.) will take a major toll on the living quality, which is already borderling horrible, especially since the prices will go up anyway, now that we've joined the EU, we just can't afford MORE price rises in 5 years. Believe me, we know, we just went through a currency reform 13 years ago.
Quote

The general consensus here is that EU objectives should be adapted to the country and the times. If we were to follow the directives to the letter, France economical situation would only get worse. The EU deal works fine for an economicaly sane country. Which is not the case right now for about all the members of the Union.
All that to say that you can't expect things to get brighter right away, you can't expect, maybe, any good outcome out of this for the time being. It's a long due process that will probably disgust most people, but I do believe it's going the right way, we just have to be patient.


My sentiments exactly, only thing is, that our goverments don't have the balls to adapt the EU normatives. That's the problem with being a small nation, you get used to being pushed around.

PS: UE? Union Éuropean? I should probably hone my french skills.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Nico on May 01, 2004, 12:28:04 pm
Quote
Originally posted by SadisticSid
Actually France benefits a lot from the EU's common agricultural policy and its subsidies


You're crazy. All your argumentation is shot down by the simple fact that this statement is so very wrong it becomes funny. Ask José Bové about it. If you don't know him, lucky you, tho.
Just as an exemple, EU policy on, say, cheese, is completly killing the exportation business because of lots of stupid limits and requirements. Cattle raisers in France are completly crushed by their eastern colleagues. Crop producers have to face cheaper producers from, again, eastern countries, which are favorized by the UE policies and which comepltly holds France down on that matter. etc etc.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Jiggyhound on May 01, 2004, 12:29:38 pm
just one step closer to a unified world goverment if you ask me :D

think about it. The east will someday form their own superpower too. Then we got problems. And if Russia ever pulls its finger out...

maybe its a new trend in world politics :p
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Nico on May 01, 2004, 01:02:34 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep

PS: UE? Union Éuropean? I should probably hone my french skills.


Yeah, Union Européenne. Sorry, didn't pay attention.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Stunaep on May 01, 2004, 01:13:54 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Nico


You're crazy. All your argumentation is shot down by the simple fact that this statement is so very wrong it becomes funny. Ask José Bové about it. If you don't know him, lucky you, tho.
Just as an exemple, EU policy on, say, cheese, is completly killing the exportation business because of lots of stupid limits and requirements. Cattle raisers in France are completly crushed by their eastern colleagues. Crop producers have to face cheaper producers from, again, eastern countries, which are favorized by the UE policies and which comepltly holds France down on that matter. etc etc.


Yeah, and we get our sugar exportation handed to us on our collective asses. But you gain new markets where to export your goods to, privileged, in comparison to Asian markets, as do we. You may lose now, but in the long run, Europe is the winner.

And Russia loses. Which is good in any way.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Nico on May 01, 2004, 01:34:27 pm
New markets? Not quite, let's take Poland, we were already the first foreign contractors there, before even the States. It doesn't change anything to us.
And I don't share your hatred for Russia, I'm kindda saddened by the rampent poverty those people suffer from.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: an0n on May 01, 2004, 01:38:02 pm
EU != Good for Britain.

It's only good for nations with no political, economic or diplomatic power. It's for ****ty little nations who want to feel important.

If Britain or France or Germany wanted to, they could withdraw from the EU and dictate terms of trade to them, but no, we've all got to pretend we aren't all looking out for our own interests. We've got to play nice and circle-jerk each other because the false happiness detracts attention from the ****ty state of affairs just about every country in the world is in.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: vyper on May 01, 2004, 01:40:27 pm
I love you an0n. :)

In a male bonding way.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: an0n on May 01, 2004, 01:43:43 pm
*coughs gruffly and shakes vyper's hand without looking him in the eye*

Yeah, thanks.

*quickly makes his way out the thread to get some manly beer, play some manly sports and have sex with some manly hookers*
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Stunaep on May 01, 2004, 01:50:40 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Nico
New markets? Not quite, let's take Poland, we were already the first foreign contractors there, before even the States. It doesn't change anything to us.
And I don't share your hatred for Russia, I'm kindda saddened by the rampent poverty those people suffer from.


However, let's take us for example, or the baltic states in general. 80% of the imported electronics have come from Asia, the construction efforts are from either russia or local, etc. Just be there and take it up. Build a citroen factory in estona. or something.

Quote
It's only good for nations with no political, economic or diplomatic power. It's for ****ty little nations who want to feel important.


It's not that we want to feel important, it's just we want to live reasonably well, and not be annexed every thirty years or so.

Of course, then there's britain.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: an0n on May 01, 2004, 01:54:44 pm
Britain has abso-friggin-loutely no need to be allying itself with anyone for any reason.

There's no chance of use every being invaded because of the fierce nationalism, we'd make the Iraqi 'rebels' looks like little kids throwing a tantrum. We're geographically secure (no border runners and such). And if need be we can totally insulate ourselves from the rest of the world. The only problem being Ireland, but no-one gives a **** about Ireland.

Seriously, has anyone ever heard of Ireland actually doing ANYTHING? I've not heard a peep about their diplomacy or economy......ever.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: vyper on May 01, 2004, 01:54:50 pm
[q]Of course, then there's britain.[/q]

Yeah we started off wanting to get some cheap booze on holiday and what happens? We end up worryin about Poland's neighbours again...
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Flipside on May 01, 2004, 01:56:27 pm
I must admit to some trepedation about all this, but only because in the UK we have been dosed on horror stories of planes and boats crammed with immigrants heading for our shores. It does appear to be true that emergency measures have been put in place by the government, so I do have some concerns.

However, regardless of that, it is actually good to see Europe gaining the partners, and that growth is inevitable, regardless of my own personal feelings. So I will wait and see on this, being a free press in the UK seems to give you license to use terrorism to sell papers.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Stunaep on May 01, 2004, 01:57:36 pm
well, why not be generous for a change? Except of course, because the EU screws you over a dozen times or so, but shouldn't we all get along or something?

You could always migrate to Estonia. Because now you can. We own now officialy the cheapest booze in the EU.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: vyper on May 01, 2004, 02:00:09 pm
[q]We own now officialy the cheapest booze in the EU[/q]

Whats your border control like? :drevil:
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Bobboau on May 01, 2004, 02:03:44 pm
as I understand it, there are no borders between EU nations (slight exaggeration)
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: vyper on May 01, 2004, 02:06:41 pm
Sorry Bob, there are.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Stunaep on May 01, 2004, 02:07:58 pm
Yeah, there is border control if you want to go out of estonia, or if you want to go anywhere in the EU and are estonian.

However, if you're a brit and wish to come here.... nothing whatsover.

Also you can buy an unlimited amount of alcohol.

To give you an idea of our cheapness, the average price of a bottle of beer (and good one, mind ya): about £0.30.

That's right. Thirty pence. 1/2 litres a bottle.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: vyper on May 01, 2004, 02:12:33 pm
So now I know where I'm going on holiday this year, continue the political discussion.... ;)
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: vyper on May 01, 2004, 02:18:10 pm
Eyy Stu I just saw Estonia on the news.... ye all look very happy about it.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Stunaep on May 01, 2004, 02:43:27 pm
mostly, we are.

Hey, it's an excuse to party. :D
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Ashrak on May 01, 2004, 02:57:54 pm
there goes the ****ing country (estonia) all costs jumped by something like 15% but pay's didnt change so me and my family seeme to be quite ****ed....
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Ghostavo on May 01, 2004, 02:58:25 pm
Can you blame them for that when they have the cheapest booze in the EU? :D
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: kode on May 01, 2004, 03:02:08 pm
if you take the ferry there from sweden, you can buy vodka in bag-in-box. but then again, you can do that anywhere except sweden (and finland). but the booze is cheaper in estonia, so... yay for eu import restrictions...
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: Janos on May 02, 2004, 05:29:24 am
Kode, now we just need to grab Lt. Cannonfodder and Gortef with us and head for Estonia to sexually harass and molest Stunaep.
Title: EU welcomes 10 new members
Post by: kode on May 02, 2004, 06:26:05 am
Quote
Originally posted by Janos
Kode, now we just need to grab Lt. Cannonfodder and Gortef with us and head for Estonia to sexually harass and molest Stunaep.


yeah, I guess so... :drevil: