Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Flipside on May 14, 2004, 01:18:53 pm
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And hide under it....
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040514/ts_nm/pope_muslims_dc
Ummmmmmmmm.... Would this be an innapropriate time to say that at this moment, the Vatican should keep it's sodding nose out of things?
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I don't even know where to start.. if I was a member of the religion I'd be ashamed... not that it was a group decision. Honestly though.. it seems like regression and how long will it be before we hit a stage of "that man does not have white skin. Thefore he is a sinner and will go to hell. Fail to kill him and so will you".
I think I might go colonize the moon. Anyone else up for making a separate state in the name of HLP?
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And people wondered why I complain about the vatican and the pope.
They're nothing else other than yet another system of goverment full of lying politicians and a self-elected despot for life.
I especially love the line about them having trouble facing the popularity of Islam. Well that shows a lot of faith in your religion doesn't it! Maybe they're worrying that they picked the wrong horse :D
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Religions are trying to stop people converting to opposing religions?!?! Dear God! What is the world coming to?
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Bit of selective oversimplification there An0n :)
It won't be read like that by anyone least of all the Catholics and the Muslims :(
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at the end of the article there were links to other news
this was way more interesting: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/20040514/ts_latimes/incapitalventurerocketreachestheedgeofspace&e=5
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Ah, that is much more interesting!
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I like religion in general, and the Vatican specifiaclly, as long as they remain benign. This, however.....
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I'm surprised the Vatican hasn't warned catholics against marrying agnostics and deists like me. If they have, my wife didn't get the memo.
I wonder if that one priest is going to prevent her from taking communion because she married me, especially considering my political stances?
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Originally posted by Rictor
I like religion in general, and the Vatican specifiaclly, as long as they remain benign. This, however.....
Of course you do Rictor. Nevermind that the vatican policy is responsible for more deaths in Africa than anything the US has done in the last 10-15 years or so. :rolleyes:
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Shush, Kara. You might goad him into trying to defend the senseless deaths of millions. Either his brain will explode, or it won't and he'll babble on about how if you're not for the Vatican, you're against cannibalism or something.
Either way, it'll be an ugly mess.
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Originally posted by mikhael
Shush, Kara. You might goad him into trying to defend the senseless deaths of millions. Either his brain will explode, or it won't and he'll babble on about how if you're not for the Vatican, you're against cannibalism or something.
Either way, it'll be an ugly mess.
If no one was to talk about any subject that Rictor could make ill-educated points about no one would be talking at all.
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An unfortunate, but true, point.
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You're right. I think I misunderstand the word benign.
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You said remain benign. You obviously do misunderstand the word if you believe they ever have been benign in the first place.
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Fine. I meant it as "as long as they *are* benign".
But you could actually use benign as I used it, though its not strictly correct. Shortly after a tiger attacks you, you could say "I like tigers, as long as they remain the hell away from me.", indicating you hope that they will do so in the future.
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He's weaseling again.
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See, this is what they get for going more conservative again after Vatican II. That could have saved the Catholic Church. But no, they have to go authoritarian again....
Also, notice how the Pope never actually makes statements much. These statements are all from "Senior Vatican officials". Seems that they Catholic Church is an oligarchy now....
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Originally posted by Rictor
But you could actually use benign as I used it, though its not strictly correct. Shortly after a tiger attacks you, you could say "I like tigers, as long as they remain the hell away from me.", indicating you hope that they will do so in the future.
Yeah but you can't use that kind of comment after complaining on every single thread you can find about how nasty lions are because they attack people.
The fact is that the majority of complaints you could level against the US could also be made against the catholic church's oligarchy. Yet strangely I'm yet to see a complaint from you about it.
And if you really believe that doing nothing about an evil is the same as condoning it how come we never hear you complaining about the number of places where the church does huge influence and yet sits back and says nothing?
By your own rules your liking the catholic church means you support its work in helping the AIDS virus spread in Africa.
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There are many, many organizations which are harming someone. I try to go after the one who's actions have the greatest effect on humanity, and that, as far as I know, would the US of A. If this were Russia or China (could soon be) or a private corporation, they'de be getting hell. The US, as the lone superpower, has the ability to **** things over quite badly. I'm sure many other would be as bad or worse, but they just don't have the resources.
Originally posted by karajorma
The fact is that the majority of complaints you could level against the US could also be made against the catholic church's oligarchy. Yet strangely I'm yet to see a complaint from you about it.
Sanctions, bombing, invasion, the odd coup every few years....? I don't think so. They Catholic Church may be guilty of a whole other set of crimes, but at least don't try to tell me they are the same ones as the US.
Yes, fundemantalism is wreaking all sorts of havok in parts of the world, but the scale, thats what counts. And for what its worth, the Church has been known to be a pretty big player when it comes to overthrowing an oppressive regime. I know examples in certain South American nations, as well as the whole Poland thing. Don't try to construe this as support, its just that the Church is pretty far down the list.
As for Africa, I support every single measure to contain AIDS, its really an epidemic in places. I read a little while ago that researches have deduced that its probably the fact that people have numerous sexual parterns simountaneously (sp?) that is a major factor in why AIDS is so out of hand in Africa.
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Why is this so contorversial?!
I'm sure Mecca would warn against Muslims marrying Catholics...
Ohh wait, there is this little thing called the Koran that clearly states that good muslims must kill the unbelievers. Well actually the infidels while enslaving Jews and Christians.
But we wont go into that.
Did I mention that the muslim goal is to literally control the world through their facsist faith? Don't believe me? What, have you been living under a table? :sigh:
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so is the christian goal.
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What??
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If you can prove that I'll change my believes
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what do you think the whole 'Jesus returning to earth and everyone liveing in his kingdom for all eternity' is all about?
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ahh... I misunderstood the whole question, nevermind what I said
When Jesus comes we are not staying.
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Originally posted by Bobboau
so is the christian goal.
Yeah I know. All those passages in the Bible saying that Christ demands a great slaughter and that as you may not want to do it, Christ knows best.
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Originally posted by Beowulf
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Why is this so contorversial?!
I'm sure Mecca would warn against Muslims marrying Catholics...
Ohh wait, there is this little thing called the Koran that clearly states that good muslims must kill the unbelievers. Well actually the infidels while enslaving Jews and Christians.
But we wont go into that.
Did I mention that the muslim goal is to literally control the world through their facsist faith? Don't believe me? What, have you been living under a table? :sigh:
Beowulf, stop spewing Christina fundie propaganda. Or are you just being ignorant?
Read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book), then use a real argument.
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Originally posted by Beowulf
Ohh wait, there is this little thing called the Koran that clearly states that good muslims must kill the unbelievers. Well actually the infidels while enslaving Jews and Christians.
No there isn't. Find me the relevent passage or shut the f**k up about it. I'm so sick of hearing idiots repeat this particular lie.
Originally posted by Beowulf
Did I mention that the muslim goal is to literally control the world through their facsist faith?
And the goal of Christians isn't the same? :rolleyes: If the goal of christianity isn't to have everyone as a christian then explain to me what the crusades were about?
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Be careful with your blanket statements, everyone. On Muslims and Christians.
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Well to clarify my earlier statement while it might not be a goal of individual christians but it is definately a goal of the church leaders.
This latest vatican pronouncement is proof of that.
I never was saying that every christian wants to evangelise :)
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shame we cant just do away with religion and be rid of the mess
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I have to Kara and Wolf on both instances.
Religions aren't a mere political movement. Christianity never ever reached the aims it set ford - ever knew a man who lived by the Ten Commandments? ...or someone who loved as Jesus proposed?
As for Islam, the original teachings of Mohamed and his ideals were very democratic in the area and in his whole age - the problem also lies in the fact that the whole movement became hopelessly interviened with the tribal traditions and senioratic system of the locals.
:EDIT - Arg!! Must have been brainded...10 commandments...:
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Getting a large portion of a nation to believe this crap about Islam...that has to be one of the best pieces of propaganda in recent years, right up there with the Red Scare. Its utter bull****, but Bob down the street still thinks the lunatic Muslims are out to get him at ever turn, cause hey, their faith demands they wage johad the kill the infidels.
Ask someone if they know a single thing about Islam. First thing that pops in to their head? Jihad. Its first and only word most people learn, and form their conclusion based on that.....
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Not to mention that the word "Jihad" actually means something along the lines of "Personal struggle".
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Originally posted by 01010
Not to mention that the word "Jihad" actually means something along the lines of "Personal struggle".
Ssshhh, you're ruining my incoming movie "Jihadeer: Hard to resist the Jewish Oppressors of Helsinki"! (I really am going to do it.)
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Originally posted by Jiggyhound
shame we cant just do away with religion and be rid of the mess
Religion can be the best thing they ever did.
But, like my quote says : Men will wrangle for religion; write for it; fight for it; die for it; anything but live for it. -Charles Caleb Colton
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Here's a blanket statement for everyone: Religion sucks, humans are better off without Gods to kill for, and the Enterprise NX-01 looks too advanced. Discuss.
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Yeah, it does look a bit too advanced.
Of course if you ignore that, the question is why by Kirk's time women are wearing kinky skirts again as well as the whole uber-utilitarian simple look. I'm betting fundamentalist Vulcans took over the Federation...
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Kirk's ships looked less advanced because they realised having all those panels and ruts in the hull caused the ship to explode when hit by weapons fire. The smooth armour on later models makes them kick more ass.
And as for the uniforms.....well, Starfleet was recruiting people like Kirk to make first contact with alien races and forge delicate diplomatic ties with people who could mistake a hand gesture for a declaration of war, what kind of people do you think they had designing the uniforms.
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Originally posted by an0n
Starfleet was recruiting people like Kirk to make first contact with alien races and forge delicate diplomatic ties with people who could mistake a hand gesture for a declaration of war
:wtf:
So why would StarFleet want to start a war with every race in the galaxy? :D
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Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and am**** them using every stratagem of war.”
Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”
Qur’an 8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Qur’an 8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”
Qur’an 8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”
Qur’an 4:95 “Not equal are believers who sit home and receive no hurt and those who fight in Allah’s Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a grade higher to those who fight with their possessions and bodies to those who sit home. Those who fight He has distinguished with a special reward.”
Qur’an 8:67 “It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughtered in the land.”
Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.’”
Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”
Qur’an 9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”
Qur’an 9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”
Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”
Qur’an 4:95 “Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no injurious hurt, and those who strive hard, fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a rank higher to those who strive hard, fighting Jihad with their wealth and bodies to those who sit (at home). Unto each has Allah promised good, but He prefers Jihadists who strive hard and fight above those who sit home. He has distinguished his fighters with a huge reward.”
Qur’an 2:216 “Jihad (holy fighting in Allah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not.” [Another translation reads:] “Warfare is ordained for you.”
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Islam, Christianity, it's all the same **** with different names and different skin colours. It's all a pile of bollocks. When people realise that their lives will not cease to exist without religion and that their beliefs are just that, beliefs, nothing more than the way they've been taught and raised and they come to realise that just because you believe it, doesn't make it true, I think the world will become a much better place.
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Originally posted by Beowulf
Qur’an 8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Seems pretty nasty till you read the verse before it.
8:38 Tell them who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them ; but if they return (thereto) then the example of men of old hath already gone (before them a warning).
or read another translation
8:39 And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
So basically it's calling for the death or conversion of those who persecute muslims. Not what you were claiming when you took it out of context.
Originally posted by Beowulf
8 29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
Guess what. The Koran is as full of stupid contradictions as the bible is.
109 Many of the people of the Scripture long to make you disbelievers after your belief, through envy on their own account, after the truth hath become manifest unto them. Forgive and be indulgent (toward them) until Allah give command. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.
Someone who has studied the Koran could pull apart this whole arguement in the same way. The general consensus is that the Koran advocates violence only to return violence. It doesn't advocate the kind of wholesale slaughter of unbelievers you claim it does.
Besides you can make exactly the same arguements against the bible.
Deuteronomy 17:5
Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, [Belief in another god] unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
2 Chronicles 15:13
That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
And so as to prove it wasn't just old testement crap.
Titus 1:10
For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
1:11
Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
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Originally posted by 01010
Islam, Christianity, it's all the same **** with different names and different skin colours. It's all a pile of bollocks. When people realise that their lives will not cease to exist without religion and that their beliefs are just that, beliefs, nothing more than the way they've been taught and raised and they come to realise that just because you believe it, doesn't make it true, I think the world will become a much better place.
:yes: Agree 100% with that statement.
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doesn't mean it can't be made to suport a violent wholesale slaughter of unbelievers, people do it with the Bible all the time.
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Originally posted by Bobboau
doesn't mean it can't be made to suport a violent wholesale slaughter of unbelievers, people do it with the Bible all the time.
No, that's fundamentalism, not the Quo'ran (sp?) or the Bible itself, people with no sense of irony who take the word literally and unquestioningly.
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Back flogging the muslims want to kill us all so we have to kill them first and get their oil ****e again?
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...well, you need someone to stand in, now that the Commies are no longer the big bad boogyman. And the fact that the media can widely represent Muslims as fundamentalists and fanatics makes them a perfect fit.
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No, one can't make the same argument for the Bible... none of those Bible verses quoted, out of context or in, advocate the wholesale slaughter of "infidels" or "unbelievers" or "gentiles" such as the Qur'an does. Further, none claim that God has ordained a life of warfare for his believers as the Qu'ran states allah does.
Second, the Bible is not full of contradictions at all. If one understands the totality of the Scriptures, then he will grasp the continuity of the work.
Thirdly, Mohammed was most likely the most evil man alive. He was a mass-murderer, a pedophile, a rapist, and a liar. I dare anyone to go find a list of his exploits.
Lastly, none of those explanations of context in regards to the Qu'ran make any sense or diminish the message of the verses quoted.
Qur’an 2:216 “Jihad (holy fighting in Allah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not.” [Another translation reads:] “Warfare is ordained for you.”
Islam: a religion of the sword.
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Originally posted by Beowulf
No, one can't make the same argument for the Bible... none of those Bible verses quoted, out of context or in, advocate the wholesale slaughter of "infidels" or "unbelievers" or "gentiles" such as the Qur'an does. Further, none claim that God has ordained a life of warfare for his believers as the Qu'ran states allah does.
The quote from Chronicles advocates the death of any unbeliever. That makes it the equal of anything you quoted. Furthermore...
Dt.13:6 "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die."
So the Bible is less militant. It still makes the same pronouncements.
Originally posted by Beowulf
Second, the Bible is not full of contradictions at all. If one understands the totality of the Scriptures, then he will grasp the continuity of the work.
Sorry but it is. Here's a list Skeptics Guide to the Bible (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/index.html)
Originally posted by Beowulf
Thirdly, Mohammed was most likely the most evil man alive. He was a mass-murderer, a pedophile, a rapist, and a liar. I dare anyone to go find a list of his exploits.
And you can find prophets all over the bible who commited every single one of those crimes. Your point?
Originally posted by Beowulf
Lastly, none of those explanations of context in regards to the Qu'ran make any sense or diminish the message of the verses quoted.
Qur’an 2:216 “Jihad (holy fighting in Allah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not.” [Another translation reads:] “Warfare is ordained for you.”
Except that you've got a mistranslation there. The real quote is
216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.
The bible is equally full of examples of God telling his followers to go to war. This really isn't much different. The bible is full of examples of God telling his chosen people to go into some country and kick the crap out of the inhabitants there.
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The Bible also tells you to kill all prisoners of war. You miss that?
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**** it, I'm practicing fundamental aetheism, don't believe or die. Simple.
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Right little bigot arent you beowolf, with attitudes like yours its no wonder Bin Laden and co see the US as the devil.
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*holds his head in his hands*
glad im agnostic....:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Gank
Right little bigot arent you beowolf, with attitudes like yours its no wonder Bin Laden and co see the US as the devil.
And that's the problem. One bunch of idiotic religious fundementalists having an go at a different bunch of idiotic religious fundementalists over which one has the correct book of fairy stories. It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.
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The Bible also tells you to kill fags, witches and fortune tellers. But if you're a farmer you're supposed to leave some of your crop un-harvested so tramps can feed themselves.
And if you **** a girl then don't marry her, you've got to pay off her father.
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It's all about power...
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/me hides under a table watching the discussion goin on....
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Originally posted by an0n
And if you **** a girl then don't marry her, you've got to pay off her father.
Not to mention if you're ugly with no social skills you've only got to rape a virgin to get yourself a wife.
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Originally posted by an0n
The Bible also tells you to kill fags, witches and fortune tellers.
Lets not forget the cripples.
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Don't forget, Jesus died for their sins though. That is, being born and all.
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urged Muslims to show more respect for human rights, gender equality and democracy.
two words: ****ing hypocrits
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This discussion is entirely stupid.
First, I'd like to suggest the idea that all members of a certain religion do not all think alike, nor are they robots(a rather common belief on this message board, it would seem).
Secondly, demanding that somone believes something that they don't is absolutely ridiculous. There is no way to win such an arguement. What do you hope to accomplish by quoting someone's religious books as proof of their own thought "bad" thought processes? It would be much more reliable to simply ask that person what they believe.
:no: :no: :no:
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but such people have been asked to explain there opposition to (what to us at least apears to be) socal reforms, and there responce was that 'it's what the good book says'. our quoteing of other sections of the same book is mearly an atempt to show them the (perceived by us) stupidity of such a practice, that this is what you will get if you let your religon/holy book be a replacement for thinking.
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(http://www.meninhats.com/comics/20020906.gif)