Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: an0n on May 19, 2004, 07:49:35 pm
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3730709.stm
If I was posting this as a commentary on Israel, I'd've posted it in the Rafah thread. But I'm posting it in here because I'm so absolutely stunned that the UN has actually made a decision and managed to follow through on it.
I'm totally shocked.
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:D
The US abstained and issued their own private slap on the wrist. An excellent political step, if I may say so, and I'm not being sarcastic :)
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Both sides are arseholes, and both sides are being left to do as they please by the UN.
Nice. :wtf:
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if
UN statement=condemnation
then
if
UN statement=UN resolution
then
IsraeliViolatedResolutions=IsraeliViolatedResolutions+1
else
else
IsraelActsWithImpunity=IsraelActsWithImpunity+1
edit: damn, for some reason its gets broken up, and it also wont ackowledge my spaces at the start of certain lines....
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I'll agree it's a symbolistic show, but it's worth noting that America chose to abstain rather than veto the motion, that in itself speaks volumes more than the actual condemnation :)
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Israel are already violating UN resolutions IIRC. Something about not pissing the Palestinians off by invading their ****.
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Here we go:
A 2002 U.N. resolution condemning Israel's treatment of the Palestianians laid out a number of violations, including "the siege of Yasser Arafat’s Headquarters in Ramallah, by the Occupying Power in violation of the Geneva Conventions. Those include annexation and settlement, the reoccupation of Palestinian cities and blocking of roads between them; expulsions and targeted assassination of scores of Palestinians; attacks on ambulances and medical personnel; house demolitions; destruction of water storage facilities; uprooting of thousands of fruit and olive trees; 24-hour curfews; almost permanent closures of towns, villages and cities; and excessive use of force, including weapons of war such as F-16 bombers and helicopter gunships used against apartment houses, refugee camps and other civilian targets, causing the deaths of numerous Palestinians."
From the Rotten.com Library.
Violating the Geneva Conventions.
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In violation of 67 UN resolutions regarding war crimes since 1967, IIRC.
edit: different sources say different things, but this is the lowest number I could find, the others were 138 and one in between the two (though I vaguely remember a number in the six hundreds from somewhere...)
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yeah, but what else is new. If I took over the world, national border issues wouldn't exist. Problem Solved.
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If I took over the world the only borders would be the natural ones formed from the rims of the 8 collosal craters that used to be the surface of the Earth.
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thats why my regime would be better. I'm an idealist liberal who doesn't want to rule the world with an iron fist or destroy the world, but simply to make it a better place without all the stupid and unnesccesary problems (war, religious dispute, poverty) that plague it today
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I follow a more Taoist ideology.
Good and evil will always balance so I intend to pull all the evil into me and use it to ensure the world is a good place.
Basically turn myself into some kind of vengeful God who smites liars and stupid people.
The only good thing religion ever did was give people something to fear that was greater and more dangerous than any mere mortal. But that's been taken from them by civilization. I intend to give them that back.
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Originally posted by an0n
I follow a more Taoist ideology.
Good and evil will always balance so I intend to pull all the evil into me and use it to ensure the world is a good place.
well then you can't let any of it out, aka, no smiting.
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It all begs the question, is Israel actually fighting a war? I mean, there was never exactly any declaration of war, so to speak, was there?
I'm not up on my history. Maybe there was (sort of).
:D
Personally, I think it is a war...but...yeah. I'm not making sense again, am I?
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I think the hundreds of dead every month from homicide bombers equals a declaration of war, Rictor.
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Originally posted by Liberator
I think the hundreds of dead every month from homicide bombers equals a declaration of war, Rictor.
*cough* suicide bombers
Unless you're one of the members of the unwashed FOX hordes...
Suicide bomber is the term that's been used. So why the **** do a bunch of idiots decide on changing the word because it doesn't evoke enough fear for the audience? Oh wait, that was the reason... :p
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Originally posted by Liberator
I think the hundreds of dead every month from homicide bombers equals a declaration of war, Rictor.
I think you're mistaking me for someone else. I never said its not a war. In fact, I believe it IS a war. The hundreds of dead each month from missle strikes, gunfire, tank rounds, a lack of health services and food agree with me. The problem is that neither side is playing by the rules of war, which means no harming civilians. It should be said, however, that Israel has the power to *really* break these rules with full force, while the Palestinian militants can only get in a few civies here and there.
And I see nothing wrong with calling them homocide bombers. My perception of reality is grounded enough that merely changing a name to a more menacing sounding one is not going to affect my opinions. However, this is probably not true for the majority of people.
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I'm sure there's plenty of Palestinians and Israelis alike would who don't really care if the other is exterminated. They want to eat, sleep, work, ****, ****, and die like the rest of us. The true solution would be for both sides to throw the fanatics out of their respective nations, including those in political power.
Freedom is not having to care where the borders are or who's running the country.
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imposter! where is the real ionia?
*rips of fake nose*
AHA! Just as I suspected!
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It's the groundskeeper!
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speaking on the Geneva Convention, it's damn near impossible to not violate it. I mean, it even declared the POWs had to be paid every day they were held. I mean, I wouldn't be suprised if there was a clause in there to give them pink bunny slippers and free toothbrushes.
With that said, I don't think the UN condemning Israel is gonna stop anything. Sharon is supposed to be a moderate in his party, so I'd hate to think what the radicals would do. And Palestine isn't even really a nation per say, and I don't think someone saying it's bad to blow yourself up is gonna make em stop and think about why a bomb is strapped to their chest. They'll keep killing each other until one of em runs out of people able to use weapons.
But with that said, if I had to pick a side, I'm a Muslim, so let's see Palestine hit that three-pointer at half time.
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:welcome:
Exits are to the sides and rear, emergency flamethrowers can be found under the seats. And if you run into a large 5-limbed creature while wandering around in the air ducts, give it your lunch and maybe toss it a shoe as well. Hopefully it's just Carl, and he'll leave you be. If you notice any funky changes in the scenery outside the windows, don't worry, it's only the SCP team messing around with reality.
Enjoy your stay!
_______
True, Sharon is a moderate withing the Likud party, but they are pretty far to the right. He served in the infamous 101st and was involved in the Shatilla and Jenin murders. Coming from a background like that, its pretty hard to call him a moderate.
The UN condemnation is important for two reason. First, it reaffirms the world statement to Israel and the US that this is not acceptable. A symbolic gesture, true, but an important one. And secondly, it shows the world exactly where **** and the US stand, since they abstained from comndending it. Also, it serves to show the ABB (Anyone But ****) crowd just where Kerry stands too, which is squarely with **** and Israel, since he has not comndended these attacks ad the demolition of the Palestinian homes. Hopefully, this will send some more people to Nader's camp, away from the Democracts-who-aren't-anything-resemebling-progressive-or-peaceful.
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Originally posted by Corsair
It all begs the question, is Israel actually fighting a war? I mean, there was never exactly any declaration of war, so to speak, was there?
I'm not up on my history. Maybe there was (sort of).
:D
Personally, I think it is a war...but...yeah. I'm not making sense again, am I?
I dunno what the definition of "being in a war" is legally, but I do know that the Israeli government has had special wartime powers granted to it ever since the day after the declaration of independance in '48. Israel has been in a state of war for her whole existence.
Reez: :welcome:
Cool to have you around - you'll probably be able to clear up a number of contentious points we've had over time. :)
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Thanks for the welcome! I bought a used copy of Freespace 2 for 10 bucks at a pawn shop 2 weeks back. Best 10 bucks i ever spent, I'm a hardcore junkie now.
The reason why he's considered a moderate (practically a hippy for the Likuds) is because he says he favors pulling Israeli troops out of Palestinean land. More than can be said for the rest of his party, but hopefully, their next election will vote in an actual moderate party, since his party's popularity is going down faster than an intern looking for a promotion (This comment is rated R, viewer discretion advised).
Heh... good point on Kerry. If my dad was reading this, he'd be responding by typing out "THAT'S CUZ JEWS RULE THE WORLD AND WANT TO KILL US ALL". I have strange family. The fact is though, that Nader won't stand a chance, since most Americans don't know who he is. It will be funny to see him screw the Democrats out of Presidency again, though.
The fact is, that the symbolic gesture is what it states, it's just a symbol. Israel has shown it doesn't give two sh*ts about foreign policy or what anyone else thinks, and i guess deservedly so because they've been fighting since the day that Israel was declared a country, and won every battle so far. They've been condemned by the EU, Canada, Japan (i think), Russia... the list goes on. They really don't care. They're like a really bad kid. Sometimes time-outs don't work, and you gotta backhand the little sh*t across the room.
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Originally posted by Reez
Thanks for the welcome! I bought a used copy of Freespace 2 for 10 bucks at a pawn shop 2 weeks back. Best 10 bucks i ever spent, I'm a hardcore junkie now.
Hope you've noticed the SCP forum :)
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Originally posted by Liberator
I think the hundreds of dead every month from homicide bombers equals a declaration of war, Rictor.
There was no formal declaration of war, nor is there ANY proof that the Palastinian government is sending those bombers.
Yet, Israel wages war against the whole country.
If fact is that the Israelians begun with terrorist attacks first, before Israel was formed and that Palestinian territory was taken.
I'm siding with Palestinians on this one, since that IS the right side. (NOTE: I'm saying Palestinians, not suicide bombers - )
b.t.w. - reez..I know a lot of people who think the same as your dad (alltough without the kill prat). The strange thing is - they're not that wrong either!
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"We're sorry that innocent civilians got hit, we don't aim at Palestinian civilians," he said."
meh....
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Surprise, surprise
IMO, if the UN condemns something, they are either:
1) Getting kickbacks from the other side (highly unlikely in this case)
2) Getting global attention for trying to look competent
3) Showing the country they condemn in a hint, hint fashion that they need to take control of the situation and try to bring peace through their presence. (Doesnt work... blue helmeted soldiers make even more obvious targets)
In this case i think its a mixture between 2 and 3, but mostly 2.
:)
Here is why i think Israel is sort of in the right. whether the Palestinian goverment has authorized it or not, Palestinian militants blow themselves up in crowds targeting civilians. For that alone Isreal has the right to respond, and notice how them respond.. by killing the leaders of the militants which is a brilliant strategy.
IMO, Yassir Arafat is a puppet who has almost no power over his people and his country is really run by these Jihad extremeists. He may have a good say over the civilian populous but i doubt these leaders that order these strikes are taking them from him.
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Welcome to HLP, Reez. Awesome job picking up FS2, she's a keeper - and it'll be great to have your voice around here to chat. :)
:welcome:
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Originally posted by Jiggyhound
"We're sorry that innocent civilians got hit, we don't aim at Palestinian civilians,"
No, they just aim next to the Palestinian civilians, where the "suspected gunman" (which can be just about anyone) was standing.
And seriously, who bulldozes a refugee camp. They've already fleed from where they were, now they need to flee again.. Barring politics and religion and all other circumstances, thats just mean
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Originally posted by Carl
well then you can't let any of it out, aka, no smiting.
Any why might that be?
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Rictor: ever person who goes to nader is waisting his vote in this election - and is helping **** stay in office - idealism is fine, but not when it get's in the way of getting that madman out of office!
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Originally posted by an0n
Any why might that be?
Cause then the evil is leaving you and going out into the world again.
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The evil is in the actions, not in the people.
Basically I'd be seperating society into two factions. One would be everyone who wanted to follow the rules and be nice to each other and live in peace. The other would be the mother****ers trying to rock the boat, who'd fall into my 'evil' group.
So everyone would get what was coming to them.
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Regarding Nader:
Yes, a vote for Nader probably will help **** stay in office. But thats how its going to be EVERY election, if Nader just tries to keep a low profile and never run. You're thinking of the short term consequences. It stands to reason that the Democrats aren't going to be getting their act together any time soon. And as more and more Democrats grow to hate their policies, they need a viable alternative to turn to. Someone has to break the chain of voting for the lesser of two evils. Democracy is, quite simply, picking the best candidate. The best way to imlpement true democracy is the way a 10 year old would. Put your little checkmark beside the person you agree most strongly with, and you're done.
And it should be said, however much I hate Gore, it wasn't Nader who put **** in the White House. It was the Supreme Court, the media and Gore himself, for being so utterly incompetent as to not be able to outsmart a hillbilly cokehead like ****.
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DeepSpace9r: but the trouble is, Israel is not killing exclusivly militants. In fact, statistically speaking, they kill more innocents than militants. Not to mention the whole tearing down of houses, which leave innocents homeless. Or are you going to tell me that the 100 houses they recently tore down ALL belonged to militants?
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well, as long as Kerry doesn't say anything, he'll win. Let **** make himself look stupid on his own, I say. Kerry shoul just wait for **** to talk, and after he's done, point at him and say "That's why you should vote for me." BAM! Instant Presidency in a Cup.
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Originally posted by Rictor
DeepSpace9r: but the trouble is, Israel is not killing exclusivly militants. In fact, statistically speaking, they kill more innocents than militants.
:wtf:
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check that website you linked to a while ago, that shows the casualty statistics since the start of the second intifada. As I remember it, the numbers where thereabouts, though I can't be a hundred percent sure.
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Remind me again why Israel needs to clear the Palestinian side of the border instead of just moving their own **** back.
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I wonder what I'm gonna eat tonight... pasta? Mmh, or lasagna maybe. Yeah, lasagna. Lasagna is good.
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Originally posted by an0n
Remind me again why Israel needs to clear the Palestinian side of the border instead of just moving their own **** back.
Cuz the military division is looking at the map upside-down. The poor ministers think that everything in the east belongs to them too.
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Originally posted by an0n
Remind me again why Israel needs to clear the Palestinian side of the border instead of just moving their own **** back.
The Philadelphia road is the one I patrolled along last year. It is basically the Israeli-Egyptian border. As you drive along the road northwards, you have about 5 meters away to your left the international border fence, and on the right, a fence between Israel and the Gaza Strip, with a clear strip that varies in width between about 20-100 meters wide beyond that fence before the closest Gaza structures.
So, Israel has no "****" to move back. It's Egyptian soil.
Originally posted by Nico
I wonder what I'm gonna eat tonight... pasta? Mmh, or lasagna maybe. Yeah, lasagna. Lasagna is good.
I just had lasagne tonight, too! :lol:
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I think what an0n meant was to move their armies back from occupation zones into their own territory, rather than walking backwards into Egypt.
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Sandwich, take a gander at this. And no, I'm not posting it just to be a bastard, however much it may seem to the contrary.
http://www.rafahtoday.org/index.htm
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What an0n meant was: One of the blatant lies Israel recites as a reason why they need to exterminate thousands of homes is because the militants use them and their demolition creates a large buffer-zone in which to defend Israeli territory.
Why not pull all their **** back 20 miles instead of ploughing through 20 miles of Palestinian homes?
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I thought he was refering to the demolition of Rafah, but that is just what this topic is about...
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anon: 20 miles? are you kidding? Israel proper is barely 20 miles wide. The "buffer" zone that Israel seeks to create would be 300-400 meters, though thats still thousands of homes.
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I was exaggerating. Like when I use words such as 'annihilate' and 'plough'. It's done to create a false sense of the grandios.
Goebbels knows what I'm talking about.
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Hyperbole, when used skillfully, can be the most effective type of figure of speech.
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20 miles is quite the exaggeration though
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In talking specifically about Rafah, there is nowhere Israel can pull back to in the interests of a security corridor. See attached sattelite map for detailed overview of Rafah area. ;)
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um... then how is knocking over an entire Palestinean village worth that? I mean... it's 100 meters wide... and if you're gonna knock their town down... maybe you should buy the land from them? Or at least build them a new town that's a nice distance away?
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no, that would be nice
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Where does that road go anyway that it's so important?
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I bet it's not Philadelphia anyway.
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(http://www.penguinbomb.com/images/rafah.gif)
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I think the entire point of the Israelis keeping that strip of land by the Philly road is to stop arms and such from entering Gaza from Egypt. Withdrawing from that area would only make such passage even easier.
Of course, Israel made a huge blunder when it gave the Sinai back to Egypt but didn't make the Egyptians take Gaza as well. I think it would have been one less headache had Gaza been a part of the deal.
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Well, spoils of war, you know.
and for strict accuracy, I've always seen it reffered to as Philadelpi road, no "a". But Sandiwch probably know this better than me, seeing as how he's actually been there.
But the point is, the tunnels don't smuggle in only weapons. The also smuggle in food, medicine, cigarettes and all sorts of day-to-day goods. And leaving thousands homeless, knowing they are damn well NOT responsible for any smuggling is wrong. They are innocents, why do they deserve to suffer because Israel wants to expand the buffer zone?
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Originally posted by Rictor
and for strict accuracy, I've always seen it reffered to as Philadelpi road, no "a". But Sandiwch probably know this better than me, seeing as how he's actually been there.
Sandwich knows better, whether he's right or not. You should know that by now.
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Originally posted by Rictor
Well, spoils of war, you know.
Spoils of war? Why the hell Israel kept Gaza is beyond me. Why would anyone want to keep spoils of war like that?
Yes, now that I've defeated my enemy I would like to keep his cyanide. :doubt:
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Wow! The UN condeming Israel! Imagine that! What that US/ Israel hating pack of socialist rats? No!
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Originally posted by Corsair
Yes, now that I've defeated my enemy I would like to keep his cyanide. :doubt:
More like now that I've defeated my enemy I'm going to let him keep his cyanide and force him to make tea for me every day. ;)
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Originally posted by Rictor
and for strict accuracy, I've always seen it reffered to as Philadelpi road, no "a". But Sandiwch probably know this better than me, seeing as how he's actually been there.
In Hebrew it's "Philadelphi", w/o the "a". I think I've seen it as both in English, probably people wanting to avoid a ton of "you've got a spelling mistake" emails.
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Originally posted by Rictor
if
UN statement=condemnation
then
if
UN statement=UN resolution
then
IsraeliViolatedResolutions=IsraeliViolatedResolutions+1
else
else
IsraelActsWithImpunity=IsraelActsWithImpunity+1
edit: damn, for some reason its gets broken up, and it also wont ackowledge my spaces at the start of certain lines....
/me converts to PHP
<?php
define(CONDEMNATION, 'bad stuff');
define(RESOLUTION, 'spineless stuff');
switch($UN_Statement) {
case CONDEMNATION:
++$IsraeliViolatedResolutions; // ++$var; is faster then $var++;!!
break;
case RESOLUTION:
++$IsraelActsWithImpunity;
break;
}
?>
I think that catches what you're saying.
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That's some pretty ****ed-up PHP.
It's needlessly complicated.........and poorly commented.
$diplomacy = mysql_query("SELECT * FROM juniordiplomat WHERE givea**** = 0");
$condemnation = "You guys suck";
$resolution = $diplomacy['israelresponse'];
while ( $gaza['israeltroops'] > 0 ) {
print $condemnation;
print $resolution;
}
if ( ( $diplomacy['israelvalue'] != 1 ) and ( $nation = "US" ) ) {
$israel['population'] = $israel['population'].$us['troops'];
}
?>
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:lol: