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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Liberator on May 26, 2004, 08:00:32 pm

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Liberator on May 26, 2004, 08:00:32 pm

All I can say is:

Well, that was...unexpected.  Quite well done.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Grey Wolf on May 26, 2004, 08:08:30 pm

Shouldn't these threads be merged?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Ace on May 26, 2004, 08:23:02 pm

Ermm what was unexpected? What ugly depths have the writers decended to now? Spoilers, please!

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Carl on May 26, 2004, 08:27:11 pm

I think "Alien Nazis" sums it up pretty well.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on May 26, 2004, 08:46:46 pm

It's not officially on yet.

Die.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: IceFire on May 26, 2004, 10:03:31 pm

SPOILER ALERT!

I love science fiction and I love WWII history...it looks like they have once again come together.  This time Mustangs and the Enterprise shuttle...woowee!

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Carl on May 26, 2004, 10:29:15 pm

There is an abnormally common use of nazis in Star Trek.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Liberator on May 26, 2004, 10:54:57 pm

Well, it probably stems from the fact that 99% of the populace instantly recognizes Nazis as being evil and bent on dastardly deed that Star Trek Captains are Honor bound to stop.

There's not really anything spoilerish about the episode.  But I'll sum up the important bits:

Spoiler:

1.  Shran saved the day, Archer owes him now(this is some Andorian Life Debt thing I think)

2.  Daniels reveals that the Xindi plotline takes place 7 years before the Federation Charter is signed by Humans, Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites.  Archer signed on behalf of Earth.

3.  Somehow, the Aquatic ship that returned Enterprise to Earth traveled back in time some 215~216 years into the past, dropped Enterprise and then left, without realizing that they too were trapped in the past, facing mirror images that were...(sorry about that, wrong show:ha: )

We get left with the following bag:

Enterprise, depsite Trip's best, needs a few months in Spacedock to be her old self, she's in pieces.

Archer's survived the blast and somehow ended up in a Nazi field hospital, he may be a villian next season courtesy the "Amnesia Effect".  He's also apparently very badly burned, though he looked like he had ketchup on his forehead.

Trip and Mayweather are decending toward 194x San Francisco in a shuttlepod, they get a signal and when they respond, are fired at by a flight of 3 P-51 "Mustangs"

There is an Alien, possibly many, of some variety helping the Nazis.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Carl on May 26, 2004, 10:57:35 pm

Wait a minute...the alien...

He's a REMAN! The Romulan slave guys from Nemesis! :eek:

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Ace on May 26, 2004, 11:02:21 pm

Yup, I was about ready to post that.

Remans in Nazi Germany.

Earth-Romulan war here we come! :)

Anyways, it was great that the Andorians showed up to save the day. Overall, a fun episode.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on May 26, 2004, 11:04:37 pm

I don't know about that... he could be, but what the ****?

Could just be a look alike. You know, how the Enterprise is really an Akira? etc.

Ace: Ah, yes. Romulan War... that would make sense... minus the Nazi part. :wtf:

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Liberator on May 26, 2004, 11:04:51 pm

No, what ever he is he is not a &$%#ing Reman.  For one thing the head is too small, Reman heads are huge.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on May 26, 2004, 11:07:39 pm

How could you tell? We only got to see the front.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Ulala on May 26, 2004, 11:56:57 pm

Remans don't have red eyes anyway... has anyone watched Star Trek: Nemesis? There's lots of Remans in there.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Ace on May 26, 2004, 11:56:57 pm

Quote

Originally posted by Knight Templar
Ace: Ah, yes. Romulan War... that would make sense... minus the Nazi part. :wtf:

Well most likely we'll find out that future boy pulled Archer out of the explosion and pulled Enterprise back in time because he needs someone else to do his dirty work.

I'm almost willing to bet that shadowy figure dude is behind the Remans/Romulans being involved in WW2. Most likely something to do with weakening any future alliance between humans and Vulcans, ensuring that the Romulans win.

I'm certain he's a Reman, the eyes, coloration of the makeup, and the ears (from what could be seen) all match. Hrmm, turns out I'm wrong about the eye bit if Ulala is right. I'm still betting he's Reman though.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Ulala on May 26, 2004, 11:58:14 pm

I'm pretty sure it wasn't a Reman. I recorded the episode, I could watch it and pop in ST:Nemesis to double check if you like.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on May 27, 2004, 12:00:34 am

I'd like. :yes:

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Ulala on May 27, 2004, 12:11:19 am

I'm all over it. :)

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Ulala on May 27, 2004, 12:21:08 am

Ok, this is the best shot I could get of a Reman, it's Shinzon's Viceroy from ST:N...

(http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Ulala321-STN.jpg)

Anyway, Remans have yellow eyes, and their eyes are deep in their skull, and I checked the Enterprise alien at the end, he had red eyes and his eyes weren't deep in his skull, they were closer to the surface like our own. Pretty sure that guy wasn't Reman, unless the budget couldn't handle the same kind of make up, but some how I doubt they'd make them look that different. Who knows.. :confused:

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Carl on May 27, 2004, 01:19:19 am

Bob, you got that download yet? you need to post a comparison shot.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on May 27, 2004, 01:25:23 am

I'd be thoroughly even more pissed off than I am now if they pulled another Akira with the Alien.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Liberator on May 27, 2004, 01:29:11 am

The more you look at it, Enterprise only bears a passing resemblance to the Akira class.  Certainly there are similarities, it's a Star Trek Starship after all, but it's really very different.

Also, is it just me or is Enterprise really big for 80 crew members?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Ulala on May 27, 2004, 01:38:07 am

I dunno, I'm sure if you put it next to a Galaxy or Sovereign class, it'd look pretty small.... maybe....

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on May 27, 2004, 01:38:15 am

It's not that big.

It's smaller than the Constitution.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Ace on May 27, 2004, 02:07:43 am

Hrmm... the new alien does look enough like a Reman that he might be one. On the other hand, he might be only a similar species.

I'm hoping he's Reman though, that way there's at least something resembling continuity and a grand scheme in the series.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Liberator on May 27, 2004, 02:48:47 am

We'll find out in a few months won't we.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Bobboau on May 27, 2004, 02:58:43 am

his brow ridge is too sharp, his nose is pointing down too much, the indent of his cheeck bone is to high and the mouth/lip area is totaly diferent, it's close enough that it's posable, but Remans were only in one star trek movie, so odds are that it's not a Reman.

I think a bigger question is going to be why is Archer and his ship both in the same time frame? 200 years in the past. it could be explainable that Enter prise's impulse engines did the same thing to the vortex that they did to that wormhole thingy, but they've been in a vortex before and it didn't happen, it seems more likely that some one moved them all there. Dany boy seems a likely target, but this doesn't seem like the sort of thing he normaly does.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Tiara on May 27, 2004, 03:12:16 am

Muahahahaha! HITLER WAS A REMAN! :p

Now, THAT's[/b] gonna change my history classes :lol:

Anyway, Rom-Earth war = GOOD!

WWII = GOOD!

NAZIS = GOOD! (:p)

CLIFFHANGER = EVIL!

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Lt.Cannonfodder on May 27, 2004, 05:49:34 am

:wtf:  indeed.

At least you can't say Enterprise is predictable :lol:

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Stunaep on May 27, 2004, 06:03:58 am

Now, I was moderately happy with Enterprise the third season. From Azati Prime onwards (well, god knows what happend after Impulse and Chosen Realm, because that's when I got dissappointed in Ent again, and stopped watching. I resumed with Proving Ground, since it had Shran in it), it managed to become even somewhat close to a decent sci-fi level. And I was actually impressed with Countdown. And the first 40 or so minutes of Zero Hour.

And then, they managed to blow it again. Nazis. Evil Alien Nazis. What is this, red dwarf? This seems like something out of a bad MSTK3000 movie. Seriously, I understand they needed an unexpected story twist, but evil alien nazis, as unexpected as it is, is also downright hilarious.

Well, B&B keep finding new ways to screw up an already dying franchise, that was never that good anyway, after TOS, mind ya. (excluding DS9, but that was ripping off B5 half of the time anyway). I wish they had cancelled it already. Let it end when it would be at least half decent. Unfortunately, there is nothing I can think, that would bring an evil alien nazi storyline  out of hilarity, and so far, B&B have yet to exceed my expectations.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: TrashMan on May 27, 2004, 07:14:05 am

Temporal War = big ****.

You can allways go back in time a little more and stop the other guy, or go back even mroe and give your side a Sun Decimator..
And back again, and again, and again...

I HATE time travel they way they did it after TNG
(come to think of it, there really wasn't any real time-travel in TNG, and the only time Kirk went back, there wasn't a mention of a single time-line)
DS9, VOY and the last 2 ST movies suck big time.
Enterpreise too

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on May 27, 2004, 07:54:11 am

I've only read up to Carl's "Alien Nazis" and I feel sick.

I don't know wether to download it or just sit in a corner and refuse to even acknowledge that the series ever existed.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on May 27, 2004, 08:23:43 am

I fail to see how a torrent with 2600 people on it can only download at 6kbps.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Stunaep on May 27, 2004, 08:24:58 am

Quote

Originally posted by an0n
I've only read up to Carl's "Alien Nazis" and I feel sick.

I don't know wether to download it or just sit in a corner and refuse to even acknowledge that the series ever existed.

Thank god at least someone feels the same way. Even if that's an0n ;)

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: J3Vr6 on May 27, 2004, 08:36:33 am

The only thing I can think of is maybe daniels sent enterprise to the past just like he sent archer to detroit in the past:  to stop an alien plot to destroy.

Could it be that Reman slaves have yellow eyes b/c of a caste system but leaders or some other caste have red eyes? And, what's the big deal about that reman noodle guy?  Was he a big character in the movie?

U know, I was hoping they'd finish the season aiming for the direction of having normal space exploration next year.  Ie:  They destroy the weapon, they get home, big celebration, and then a cliff hanger of something bad...  I guess the romulan/earth war thing u guys keep mentioning.

But now it's back into the time travel thing.  Hey, is it me, or did that nazi look like he knew who archer was.  Could it be possible that he's been introduced in an earlier episode/season?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on May 27, 2004, 08:44:31 am

Quote

Originally posted by Tiara
Muahahahaha! HITLER WAS A REMAN! :p

Now, THAT's gonna change my history classes :lol:[/B]

Oh please, dear God, do it.

"....attacked the beaches at Normandy, and they would've been successful if not for the Reman Scorpion-class attack shuttles laying in wait."

You'll get one or two fat kids at the back laughing their asses off and everyone else will just keep making notes.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: SadisticSid on May 27, 2004, 08:44:40 am

Well minus this dodgy ending season 3 has been superb. Wouldn't they instantly know what'd happened because the position of the stars had changed, anyway? They picked that up in the E^2 episode the instant they realised something was wrong.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: J3Vr6 on May 27, 2004, 08:52:19 am

Quote

Originally posted by SadisticSid
Wouldn't they instantly know what'd happened because the position of the stars had changed, anyway? They picked that up in the E^2 episode the instant they realised something was wrong.

I was thinking the same thing last night.  In that show, the black guy said "The stars aren't where they're supposed to be..."  

Hell, they are able to scan planet surfaces, wouldn't they notice that the base or geography isn't the same anymore?  Or wouldn't they realize that satellites aren't in orbit and there's not even any debris?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on May 27, 2004, 08:55:43 am

The lack of sats coulda been down to an evacuation.

And they only realised instantly in E^2 because they had to check the position of the star to find out if they'd dropped out at the right co-ords.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: J3Vr6 on May 27, 2004, 09:05:44 am

But the lack of structures or any evidence of structures even existing, such as the lunar base?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on May 27, 2004, 09:08:13 am

If they're expecting to see Earth and they see Earth, I doubt they'd be scanning the Moon to verify it was, infact, Earth.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: übermetroid on May 27, 2004, 09:09:40 am

When does the next show come out?

(http://flareupload.pleh.net/uploads/968/Reman.jpg)

Looks the same to me...  :D

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: J3Vr6 on May 27, 2004, 09:32:14 am

Quote

Originally posted by an0n
If they're expecting to see Earth and they see Earth, I doubt they'd be scanning the Moon to verify it was, infact, Earth.

Well in the episode they tried to contact the moon and they said it was like it wasn't there.  They should have orbited the moon then to see evidence of the lunar base.  They'd also realize that the surface of the moon has no evidence of any landings whatsoever.  That would put question marks in their heads and wonder what happened to the thousands of satellites orbitting earth.  Then they'd further wonder why, when they scan the earth, the space station is no longer there...

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Ulala on May 27, 2004, 09:44:49 am

I dunno why, but I have a hunch that Enterprise and Archer and everyone is in their own time line, just someone going back messed with the past and now they're in a screwed WWII Nazi alien present. Which could be bad, because if they are in fact in the present, could Daniels still be in the future?

Meh... the episode was entertaining, the ending a little akward (like a long silence with some cute girl you don't know very well.. ok maybe not...), and I'm looking forward to the season premiere, which is what they were going for because now I'm obviously going to watch it, regardless of what retarded time slot they put it in. (Friday night = :mad: :mad: :mad: bad).

Does anyone else feel like some flapjacks about now?

[edit]spelling[/edit]

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on May 27, 2004, 09:51:16 am

That's actually a very good point.

It could just be a screwe..........They lost the Romulan War.

That's it. Somehow, WW2 never ended and because the Romulans had some evil people to ally with on Earth, mankind lost the Romulan war.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: J3Vr6 on May 27, 2004, 10:03:06 am

Ugh.... that sounds messy.  So it's 2153 but they're still flying mustangs?  So in 208 years there has not been one single technological advancement?  

It could be that destroying the spheres, since they're transdimensional things, screwed up the timeline or something.  Cuz archer and degra's ship was in a completely different part of space as the sphere the enterprise destroyed.  Wait, that doesn't make sense b/c the weapon destoyed a space station, so we know at that point in time they were still in their time...

ugh, I'm gonna hate the long wait til next season.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on May 27, 2004, 10:13:48 am

Maybe the fun is that the Romulans were made aware of the presence of Earth alot sooner.

In one of the DS9 episodes they get kicked back in time and it's noted that the only subspace signals they're getting are off in the direction of Romulan space.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: J3Vr6 on May 27, 2004, 10:21:10 am

How far back did they get kicked back to?  And who got kicked back, the romulans or the ds9 people?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on May 27, 2004, 10:39:36 am

DS9 people.

Might have been Past Tense.

And it'd make sense. The Vulcans are a good two hundred years more advanced than mankind for most of history, and the Romulans would be similarly advanced. So if someone tipped them off that in a few hundred years the Federation would drag them into a war with the Dominion that would cripple them to such an extent that the Klingons were able to conquer them (IIRC, there's some vague hinting that the Klingons invade Romulan space around 2380, dunno if it's canon or not though), then they might be inclined to go conquer Earth and stunt their technological growth.

See, destroying the Spheres probably had some serious reprecussions in the future. We know a major event in Daniel's 'right' timeline involved battling the Sphere Builder at Krotion. But with the Spheres screwed that battle will never happen. So 31st century Federation no longer exists. Along with Daniels.

So all the police-work Daniels and Co. did, never happened. Which probably allowed Shadow-guy to screw Earth over in the past.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: übermetroid on May 27, 2004, 11:20:53 am

Thats ALOT of what ifs....

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on May 27, 2004, 11:27:17 am

Yeah, and it's ignoring the fact that by destroying the Spheres they've created a temporal paradox.

No spheres = No future war = No Fed victory = No Guardians tampering with the timeline = No Ent->Expanse = No spheres destroyed.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: übermetroid on May 27, 2004, 11:44:48 am

Quote

Originally posted by an0n
Yeah, and it's ignoring the fact that by destroying the Spheres they've created a temporal paradox.

No spheres = No future war = No Fed victory = No Guardians tampering with the timeline = No Ent->Expanse = No spheres destroyed.

Unless the spheres were always built twice, once for Enterprise to destroy and once for Enterprise J to destroy.  Then there is no paradox.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Tiara on May 27, 2004, 11:46:31 am

Quote

Originally posted by an0n
Yeah, and it's ignoring the fact that by destroying the Spheres they've created a temporal paradox.

No spheres = No future war = No Fed victory = No Guardians tampering with the timeline = No Ent->Expanse = No spheres destroyed.

No, up untill No Fed victory you are right. But the Guardians still tampered with the timeline. It's just that since the spheres are destroyed at a specific moment in time that the timeline changes from there on. Everything before that rolled out just as it was supposed to be.

In other words; Due to unbelievable ****age with the timeline by several factions it was altered and thus you have a different timeline alltogether. Not a paradox.

But I'm sure Brainless & Brainless will somehow un**** the timeline though...

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on May 27, 2004, 11:55:22 am

Ah, true enough. That's one of the benefits of the whole "We can't see specifics" thing. Even with the future now altered, in the past when they were looking forwards they'd still have seen Ent-J kicking their asses in a possible future where they'd rebuilt the spheres and all kinds of unlikely things had happened.

And they can't un-**** the timeline because it's already been established that it was Archers interactions with the Andorians in the ****ed timeline that got them in the mood to join the Federation. So they can't just erase the Sphere Builders from history with some kind of temporal bomb.

Their only real option is to go the Mirror, Mirror route.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: ChronoReverse on May 27, 2004, 12:38:52 pm

Alien Nazis...  they better make this good.  I was enjoying it up to that point where I went :wtf:

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Tiara on May 27, 2004, 12:42:15 pm

Heh, but the Nazi Hirogen in VOY were funny :D

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: SadisticSid on May 27, 2004, 12:48:32 pm

If destroying the spheres would **** with the future Daniels would have said something about it. All he seems concerned about is Archer's well-being; surely he'd know if what the other guys were doing was going to mess things up?

Personally I think they've gone back in time to the past and that WW2 isn't going on in the 22nd century

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Tiara on May 27, 2004, 01:00:25 pm

I think Romulus is another time-f*cking faction.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on May 27, 2004, 01:05:50 pm

Not the Romulus as we know it. After all, the Senate is all dead, the fleet got boned by infighting, there's no praetor and the Klingons are all friendly-like with the Federation. All the Romulans can do is pick on pre-warp powers till the Federation gobbles them up or the Klingons invade them.

I'd say the reason shadow-guy is shadowy is not because he's from an earlier point in time but because he's got ****ty bootleg technology.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Tiara on May 27, 2004, 01:09:11 pm

Remans took over Romulus (wich would have time travel tech eventually) and thats why a Reman has appeared on Earth as a Nazi.

Ok, I admit, I'm just guessing :p

As for the shadowy guy... KIRK! Have you not seen his ripped shirt-silhouette? He's coming back to Kirk-Fu your ass! :p:lol:

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on May 27, 2004, 02:13:08 pm

Well, having just watched it, I can say with some degree of certainty that it was NOT a Reman. The only way it coulda been is if they're going for some "they changed over the years" effect or they've raped the make-up budget doing all the Reps and Andorians.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: übermetroid on May 27, 2004, 02:35:58 pm

(http://www.swooh.com/peon/ubermetroid/Reman.jpg)

I got this off of this site (http://flare.solareclipse.net/cgi2/ultimatebb.cgi).

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on May 27, 2004, 02:37:28 pm

Ears (very important) are different, eyes are a different colour and the eye-area is less bulgy.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on May 27, 2004, 02:39:39 pm

Oooh, with the slight changes in the nose he could be a Klingon-Reman halfbreed.

And they're both big bastards, so it'd make sense from a "Could they fall in love?" aspect.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Kazan on May 27, 2004, 02:48:18 pm

that's a new species folks

It's a shape shifter that sucks :D

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Ulala on May 27, 2004, 02:53:47 pm

I dunno about the Romulans... I mean, according to Admiral Dowerty in ST:Insurrection they're just a bunch of thugs that got turned into an empire because of warp drive. So I guess it could be them, but I mean, they'd have to have help from the future.. it seems like everyone has help from the future. Archer has Daniels, the Suliban have the dark figure, Xindi have the "Guardians"/Sphere builders... now the Romulans have this? It kinda seems like it's become an artist's mud of sci-fi storyline.  :blah:

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Dough with Fish on May 27, 2004, 02:57:32 pm

Gahhhhhh ****ing Enterprise. Seriously, this **** totally sucks. I refuse to acknolwdge this as Trek. This is not Trek. This is horrible sci-fi that is trying to be passed off as Trek.

Man, am I the only one here waiting for Bacula to Quantum Leap to 1968 Clevland Ohio as a woman?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on May 27, 2004, 02:59:32 pm

The Romulans might just be helping their past-selves.

But the reason Daniels and Shadow-Guy and the Guardians have other people do their bidding is because they're playing a very intricate game and because they piss in their panties at the thought of getting caught 'behind enemy lines' without any support (like if they destroyed the timeline).

The Romulans and Remans are, as previously stated, thugs. But the Romulans are still pussies. The Remans, however, would happily send a whole Scimitar back and level an entire system if they thought it might help them.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Ulala on May 27, 2004, 03:12:00 pm

Except aren't they still under some sort of control from the Romulans? Or did Shinzon completely end that? You'd think the Federation would want to put some sort of restriction on Remus and it's weapon productivity, considering one nearly destroyed Earth.

A good point that this is not Trek, but in all fairness, it's technically not supposed to be. It's pre-Trek. Although I can make no defense for the alien Commi-Nazi, I would like to point out how great it was that Archer placed a demolition charge on the Reptilian commander's back and simply pressed the button without a whole "you don't have to do this" speech, or something along those lines. That was not Trek/Federation, and I loved it. ;) However, again... the Naziliens....  :doubt:

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on May 27, 2004, 03:14:31 pm

The Remans weren't bad, it was only Shinzon who wanted to wipe out Earth.

And I doubt the Federation could do much about limiting their weapons.

The Romulans left them on a ****ty planet, in the dark with little food, brutal guards and basically nothing, yet they managed to build the most powerful vessel in existence this side of Borg space.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Ulala on May 27, 2004, 03:16:17 pm

This is true...

This is spam...

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: J3Vr6 on May 27, 2004, 03:30:13 pm

I just read all this stuff and it's left me with more questions than answers...

Wouldn't it be a total twist if that nazi alien guy is expecting Archer?  Like, in the future they know archer shows up sometime in nazi germany circa 194X so send a person there to wait for him.  And it would be even whackier if he was good.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on May 27, 2004, 04:01:16 pm

I hope to God they don't do make it so the Nazi's are striving for the 'perfection' of the Remans. That would suck more ass than Virtu at a frat party.

And they should definitely make Archer the only one who can see that the guy is Reman.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on May 27, 2004, 04:02:08 pm

Oh and until we find out what that guy is, I'll be refering to him as Reman.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: IceFire on May 27, 2004, 04:17:49 pm

I think Daniels stepped in to save Archer and preserve the timeline except that maybe things didn't work out so well.

And I really believe it is 1944 (or 45).  Those are D model P-51's so it has to be middle of 1944 or later (unless they messed up which I hope they didn't) and I dout that a war like WWII with innumerable technological advances would continue for 200 years without changing a single thing past 1945 so thats totally rediculous I think.

Something very odd has happened...somehow the time has changed for the Enterprise, or Earth...and what in the world happened with the Xindi-Aquatic ship that brought them home.  Shouldn't Shran's ship be there too?  Also remember that Daniels or the other Future Guy who was with the Suliban said that the Xindi attack should never have happened in the first place...just like the planet at the end of Season 1 should never have had its atmosphere destroyed.

I'm hoping they find a way to explain this stuff :D

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Ace on May 27, 2004, 05:05:25 pm

I'm still betting that Daniels saved Archer and brought Enterprise back to save Archer but also to probably have them do his dirty work in WW2.

The makeup of the guy is similar enough, that I'm still betting he's a Reman.

I'm guessing that shadowy figure dude is probably feeding the Romulans information.

We know that: He wants Earth to not be destroyed. He tried to weaken the Klingons.

I'm betting that he's trying to make something like the Mirror Mirror universe where Earth and Vulcan are at odds with one another allowing his faction (possibly the Romulans) to win.

Supporting Nazi Germany in WW2 at a pivotal moment might be enough to change things.

Of course I'm still betting that shadowy figure dude is either Archer or Daniels acting rogue to set things up for the Federation to occur.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Carl on May 27, 2004, 05:08:33 pm

so then...maybe this is the start of the Mirror-Mirror Universe?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Ulala on May 27, 2004, 05:17:59 pm

Quote

Originally posted by IceFire

And I really believe it is 1944 (or 45).  Those are D model P-51's so it has to be middle of 1944 or later (unless they messed up which I hope they didn't) and I dout that a war like WWII with innumerable technological advances would continue for 200 years without changing a single thing past 1945 so thats totally rediculous I think.

Something very odd has happened...somehow the time has changed for the Enterprise, or Earth...and what in the world happened with the Xindi-Aquatic ship that brought them home.  Shouldn't Shran's ship be there too?  Also remember that Daniels or the other Future Guy who was with the Suliban said that the Xindi attack should never have happened in the first place...just like the planet at the end of Season 1 should never have had its atmosphere destroyed.

I agree with the first point, but also the second.. I mean, why they'd be fighting WWII 200 years later, I don't know, but it seems like it because Travis never says anything about the stars being off, nothing tells them they're in the past until they go and look, so maybe they aren't in the past, the timeline has just been horribly altered? I dunno, I just have this feeling that that's it... I don't get how Archer, Enterprise, and the Aquatic ship could all end up in the same past without noticing. Then Mr. NotReman makes things [edit] MORE [/edit] confusing.

I'd bet a lot that we're all way off base and B&B will probably pull some bs out of nowhere that couldn't be more different than what we're talking about here... ;)

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on May 27, 2004, 06:20:43 pm

The Aquatics could come back in the second part, so where they went is kinda unimportant for now.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: mrduckman on May 27, 2004, 07:49:50 pm

Hmm. I'm quite tired of the cliffhangers. Seems that's the only way Berman will keep people interested in any series.

What I think is that after the Enterprise undocked off the aquatics' ship, some where within the flight path, the Enterprise was thrown back in time, where Daniels placed Archer there so he could solve the mistery of the alien nazy... I want to puke now.....

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Ulala on May 27, 2004, 11:37:38 pm

hey, me too. fancy that.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Bobboau on May 28, 2004, 01:01:31 am

my guess would be that the aquatics whent back home (the expance, or what was the expanse before the spheres were destroied)

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: J3Vr6 on May 28, 2004, 08:26:51 am

Quote

Originally posted by mrduckman
Hmm. I'm quite tired of the cliffhangers.

Dude, are you kidding me?  It's not a comedy, Sherlock.  Suspense is kinda part of the action/drama genre... HELLO?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Ashrak on May 28, 2004, 08:48:18 am

okhay heres the "gag"

atleast what i think happened is that daniels transported archer off the ship to save the future but didnt see the temporal cold war kicking in so that the remans apparently sent someone to kill archer so ent shows up and now we have to wait for next season :)

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Ulala on May 28, 2004, 02:18:46 pm

Gosh, I swear that alien is not a Reman unless the Remans have more than one uh.. species in their race, like the Xindi.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: mrduckman on May 28, 2004, 03:14:38 pm

Quote

Originally posted by J3Vr6


Dude, are you kidding me?  It's not a comedy, Sherlock.  Suspense is kinda part of the action/drama genre... HELLO?

I like suspense, but does any of the lastest Star Trek franchises need a cliffhanger in order to survive?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Tiara on May 28, 2004, 05:23:00 pm

It isn't in the past. San Fransisco is WAY to green for that :p

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: IceFire on May 28, 2004, 05:35:03 pm

Quote

Originally posted by mrduckman



I like suspense, but does any of the lastest Star Trek franchises need a cliffhanger in order to survive?

Star Trek has been doing cliffhangers since Season 2 of Next Generation (I think it was Season 2...).  So aside from a couple of exceptions...they always do a cliffhanger.  So this is nothing new and entirely expected although not the way I had expected it.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Grey Wolf on May 28, 2004, 08:04:55 pm

I'm still betting Terran Empire. Possibly with Archer as the first emperor.

BTW, the first cliffhanger finale was Season 3,  "The Best of Both Worlds" (The Picard-as-Locutus ep.)

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Tiara on May 29, 2004, 05:42:43 am

Quote

Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
I'm still betting Terran Empire. Possibly with Archer as the first emperor.

God-Emperor of Man ;7

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on May 29, 2004, 11:56:10 am

But.. err.. didn't Daniels say he was supposed to help make the Federation?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Tiara on May 29, 2004, 03:02:01 pm

Quote

Originally posted by Knight Templar
But.. err.. didn't Daniels say he was supposed to help make the Federation?

Yeah, but he also said his superiors were against him showing Archer that little 'forming of the Federation'. Maybe they knew something he didn't and consequently he ****ed up the timeline.

Title: i see one way to salvage this
Post by: Star Dragon on May 29, 2004, 07:07:34 pm

Have Archer try to sway teh nazis on his side (maybe even fail) but in the end they trun on the (reman?) and NOW the Terran Empire starts as Humans can see aliens can be fought and that it should be Humans who rule the universe... Thus TWO universes are created one where the terran empire exists and the other where Archer was never in starfleet... So captains April, Pike, Kirk, Sulu, Harriman, Garret, Picard,and Riker are safe! Perhaps because teh PRESERVERS get involved... Shatner wrote a book about them (and the return of Emperor Kirk!) and how even Q was not going to interfear with the BIG P!

  BTW isn't Q (Trelene's Uncle from TOS) suposedly "the guadian of all lower lifeforms" in the universe? Of course he is a ****TY guardian (after all he created the energy votex from generations as a child's toy and lost track of it) who got forced into the job by the continum. Just HOW much temporal hijinx is he gonna allow before stepping in and saying "look I am Chaos personified but this has gone to far!" and let him disintergrate B&B (Someone tagged them as: Brainless & Brainless, BRAVO!) :lol:

  All I can say  is this is killing my love of Trek... Bring back B5 or let Lucas crank out another SW moneymaker PLEASE!

  Oh God have Scott Bakula leap in as LUKE or Annikin!!!
 
  HELL bring back SPACE 1999!!!! That was the bomb back then, if I had to choose I watched Trek, if Trek wasn't on it was them!

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on May 29, 2004, 07:51:46 pm

They should DEFINITELY have Archer waking up, seeing the Nazis and going "Oh, boy...."

Title: Re: i see one way to salvage this
Post by: Tiara on May 30, 2004, 06:55:07 am

Quote

Originally posted by Star Dragon
(Someone tagged them as: Brainless & Brainless, BRAVO!) :lol:

That would be me, thankyouverymuch!

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Carl on May 30, 2004, 07:13:40 am

Quote

Originally posted by an0n
They should DEFINITELY have Archer waking up, seeing the Nazis and going "Oh, boy...."

roofles @ your Quantum Leap reference, Anon! :lol:

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: J3Vr6 on June 01, 2004, 09:07:19 am

He said that in the first episode where he teleported, didn't he?  When he was running out of that slow-mo room and got teleported out.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: NeoHunter on June 01, 2004, 09:31:49 am

I rather believed that Daniels brought both Archer and the Enterprise to the same era of Earth's history to correct somethings that he detected in the timeline. The alien Nazi is one good example. At the same time, he saved Archer from an untimely death onboard the Xindi weapon.

I think in Season 4, Daniels will somehow make contact with T'Pol and gang and tell them where to find Archer and what their mission in that era is. Basically, to clean up the timeline.

If my predictions are right, then a real bastard Daniels is.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Carl on June 01, 2004, 12:55:41 pm

another point: the shuttlepod crew said that everything looked normal right before they got attacked by the mustangs. If it were the 1940s, the buildings would look much different, certainly different enough for them to notice, no? so then that means that it looked like 22nd century San Fransisco, but they were using really old planes.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: J3Vr6 on June 01, 2004, 01:05:06 pm

Ok, that doesn't make sense either.  Cuz even if it was the present and the world had been stuck in 1940's tech, san francisco would still be different from the one they have.   That would be like 310 years, wouldn't it?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on June 01, 2004, 06:20:36 pm

Quote

Originally posted by Carl
another point: the shuttlepod crew said that everything looked normal right before they got attacked by the mustangs. If it were the 1940s, the buildings would look much different, certainly different enough for them to notice, no? so then that means that it looked like 22nd century San Fransisco, but they were using really old planes.

Err, no. That could just mean that it doesn't look like there are smoking craters everywhere, and Earth is still in one piece.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Omniscaper on June 01, 2004, 08:27:10 pm

Wow!!! That was quite an episode. I still don't consider it "Trek" in the truest sense!!! But I have to admit I thoroughly enjoyed that season finally. The tension was there, and absent was Bakula's cheesiness.


(http://www.penguinbomb.com/omniscaper/Screenshots/Splatt2.jpg)
(http://www.penguinbomb.com/omniscaper/Screenshots/Splatt.jpg)

LOL .... SPLATT


In reguard to the Reman theory....
(http://www.penguinbomb.com/omniscaper/Screenshots/Reman.jpg)
Sure looks Reman to me. Don't humans also have different colored eyes and facial configurations?

In reguard to the San Fransisco...
(http://www.penguinbomb.com/omniscaper/Screenshots/Sanfran.jpg)


I swear this scene made me pee my pants...
(http://www.penguinbomb.com/omniscaper/Screenshots/Mustang.jpg)
(http://www.penguinbomb.com/omniscaper/Screenshots/Mustang2.jpg)
I take it the shuttlepod is bulletproof?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Grey Wolf on June 01, 2004, 08:32:17 pm

The second pic from the bottom looks just like one of the 3DMark03 demos....

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on June 01, 2004, 09:45:54 pm

Doesn't San Francisco have some kind of 'bridge'?


And the shuttlepod is made from....err...I would say Tritanium, but I don't think they've got that yet. It's probably Titanium or Duranium or some ****.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Carl on June 01, 2004, 09:54:31 pm

210 give or take.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on June 01, 2004, 10:42:11 pm

Quote

Originally posted by an0n
Doesn't San Francisco have some kind of 'bridge'?


And the shuttlepod is made from....err...I would say Tritanium, but I don't think they've got that yet. It's probably Titanium or Duranium or some ****.

Indeed. The Bay Bridge should be in there afaik. The island in the middle is Treasure Island, and the penninsula on the left should be Oakland-ish.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Carl on June 01, 2004, 10:44:52 pm

Quote

Originally posted by Omniscaper
I take it the shuttlepod is bulletproof?

they shoot it with antimatter and energy weapons, so i would assume some 50 cal. bullets wouldn't be too much for it.

Title: Omni
Post by: Star Dragon on June 02, 2004, 10:11:59 am

IF you recorded it go back again at the end.. I only saw it once BUT I swore I saw the GG bridge in one of those few seconds..

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Liberator on June 02, 2004, 04:06:31 pm

The IS a bridge missing in that pic.  I'm almost certain of it.  When was the Bay Bridge started?  Before of after the war?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: neo_hermes on June 02, 2004, 04:56:39 pm

i think the bay bridge was built in 1936 lib

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on June 02, 2004, 09:04:52 pm

Yeah, 36'. So if it ain't there, then we'd actually be before the war started...

:sigh:

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Bobboau on June 02, 2004, 10:08:14 pm

unless it's the first one

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on June 02, 2004, 10:23:37 pm

the first... World War? :wtf:

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: IceFire on June 02, 2004, 10:42:08 pm

Ummm...those are P-51 Mustangs...D model and those are actually the markings of a squadron which would be serving in Europe in 1944/45 (if nobody believes me I'll look up the records and the markings).  The year is DEFINATELY 1944/45 or they majorly screwed up.

The shuttlecraft gets hit with particle beams and does re-entry multiple times to a variety of planets...I'd say its tough enough to deflect some .50 cal bullets considering that most planes at the time were also capable of withstanding repeated hits from said weapon (it was still dangerous, just not generally with the kind of glacing blows that the shuttle recieved).

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on June 02, 2004, 10:56:46 pm

Well, my guess is that they just fuct up the shot and forgot the Bay Bridge.. or it's just not visible in that one clip for some reason then.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Bobboau on June 03, 2004, 12:11:01 am

unless the time screwing got rid of it too!

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on June 03, 2004, 12:18:46 am

Well, I'd think there would need to be a bridge, regardless of aliens or not...

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Tiara on June 03, 2004, 02:53:44 am

I don't know what your babbling about but there IS a bridge. The bridge is in the lower section of the picture as they pass throught the clouds. :p I have the episode on my comp and just checked it.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: NeoHunter on June 03, 2004, 06:58:46 am

Looked like the Golden Gate Bridge to me.:p

Anyway, I hope the crew of the Enterprise managed to correct the timeline or something. Flying in to Earth in a futuristic shuttlepod in the past is bound to screw up the entire history.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Tiara on June 03, 2004, 09:34:48 am

Quote

Originally posted by NeoHunter
Anyway, I hope the crew of the Enterprise managed to correct the timeline or something. Flying in to Earth in a futuristic shuttlepod in the past is bound to screw up the entire history.

I think the Reman Nazi has a bigger impact then some weird looking flying box. :p

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Liberator on June 03, 2004, 10:08:12 am

I still don't see a bridge in that pic.  I think the CG team blew it.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: J3Vr6 on June 03, 2004, 10:27:24 am

Here's a question maybe I should make a new thread about:  If we've met the Xindi so far into the past (if you're looking at it from a Next Generation or voyager standpoint), and the Xindi become part of the Federation at some point, then why haven't we used the Xindi warp technology in the Next Generation/voyager timeframe?  Didn't they even give enterprise some of the schematics?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on June 03, 2004, 10:31:57 am

Quote

Originally posted by NeoHunter
Looked like the Golden Gate Bridge to me.:p

Yeah, except the Golden Gate doesn't go to Oakland.

T:  Post a screenie then. :p

J: Simple answer, they didn't think of it then. Duh. They wrote Enterprise after TNG/Voyager. Which I guess would translate to this being the 'first' time Enterprise makes all these changes in the ST. That or I'm wrong. But we still haven't seen the "Enterprised" future, so it doesn't matter.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Bobboau on June 03, 2004, 10:36:29 am

the Xindi slipstream thingy might have been a "gift" from the gaurdians, and as such might not represent the origonal timeline, or the Xindi could simply not have joined the Federation yet.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on June 03, 2004, 10:39:00 am

Xindi vortex technology isn't as good as warp.

It can **** with time and throw you back a few hundred years and if my vague calculations are correct, once you get into the higher Warp bands vortex technology is outclassed for speed by a fair margin.

And we also don't know what kind of energy you need to make a vortex. It might be incompatible with Human/Vulcan tech or it might be abysmally resource intensive.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on June 03, 2004, 10:59:29 am

Hmmm. The net calculators are bull****. Voyager said they could do 1000ly/year at Warp 9.975, which is roughly WF^3. So I'll use that instead:

The weapon did ~23ly (warp 4.5 for 3 months) in 10hrs+8hrs (an estimate of the time till Ent caught it the first time).

23ly / 0.0021years = 11,193c

Warp 9.975 = 9.975^3 = 993c

So it was barely a fraction of the speed of Slipstream (which could do the 7 year Vortex trip in a few weeks), but kicks the ****in' ass of Warp.

I'm gonna say that the Xindi weren't a part of the Federation till the Sphere Builders started their attack.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on June 03, 2004, 11:05:09 am

Well, I wouldn't trust Voyager's warp calculations so much either. I remember one episode where it was going to take them five days to go 45 ly at maximum warp.

Unless that works with what you said. I'm too lazy to check.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on June 03, 2004, 11:23:27 am

All Trek has stupid distance calculations.

Voyager reckons Warp9 is about 1000c, yet they casually take a 6ly trip back the way they came to go check out a planet when, even at Warp9, that would take 2 whole days to reach.

IIRC in Scorpion pII, Kim says something about a 50ly range on their sensors, meaning they can pick up any ship within a 2week radius of them. Even for the much vaunted Astrometrics, that seems a little......OTT.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Tiara on June 03, 2004, 11:51:17 am

Quote

Originally posted by Knight Templar
T:  Post a screenie then. :p

(http://www.swooh.com/peon/Tiara/bridge.jpg)

Voila!

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: J3Vr6 on June 03, 2004, 01:07:36 pm

Quote

Originally posted by an0n
All Trek has stupid distance calculations.

Voyager reckons Warp9 is about 1000c, yet they casually take a 6ly trip back the way they came to go check out a planet when, even at Warp9, that would take 2 whole days to reach.

The only thing I can think of is that maybe they can't sustain warp 9 consistently.  Yeah, that's their top speed but it's only for short durations.  Makes sense not to always go top speed anyway.  I'm sure they on average always go something like warp 6 to everything, never going up to 9 unless absolutely necessary.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Tiara on June 03, 2004, 01:39:24 pm

Warp 9 = 1,516c  
Warp 9.2 = 1,649c  
Warp 9.6 = 1,909c  
Warp 9.9 = 3,053c
Warp 9.99 = 7,912c    
Warp 9.9999 = 199,516c

The last bit (warp 9 and up) increases exponentially on the warp chart. That's why warp seems so inconsistent but it also explains the Warp 10 effect of being practically everywhere at once ;). And Voyagers max speed is 9.9754 (Ref- VOY: Caretaker, Pt 1). That's... VERY fast. According the tech manual (which isn't canon but still a good estimate) they can sustain that for about 2-3 hours.

For good measure; Warp 9.9754 = ~5793c

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: J3Vr6 on June 03, 2004, 01:40:52 pm

thats still not as fast as the xindi...

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Tiara on June 03, 2004, 01:44:47 pm

Quote

Originally posted by J3Vr6
thats still not as fast as the xindi...

You mean the subspace conduits? No **** sherlock :p

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: J3Vr6 on June 03, 2004, 01:48:39 pm

thanks for the update, watson :)

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on June 03, 2004, 01:49:55 pm

Tiara, where are you getting those figures?

C'z if it's one of the many Treknical manuals, they're a sack of ****. Trek-tech manuals are notoriously and blatantly wrong. Like how the DS9 manual says the Defiant has 3 huge, 3m diameter impulse vents on its rear, while every single CGI shot, publicity photo and plastic model shows quite plainly that its flat.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Tiara on June 03, 2004, 01:53:34 pm

Quote

Originally posted by an0n
Tiara, where are you getting those figures?

C'z if it's one of the many Treknical manuals, they're a sack of ****. Trek-tech manuals are notoriously and blatantly wrong. Like how the DS9 manual says the Defiant has 3 huge, 3m diameter impulse vents on its rear, while every single CGI shot, publicity photo and plastic model shows quite plainly that its flat.

Those figures are generally accepted. They might not be 100% spot on but it is accepted as canon. Especially after the Warp 10 incident the exponential growth was implemented and accapted.

The numbers aren't from the tech manual, but they are a simple function based on calculations from the series as where Warp 9+ becomes an exponential equasion.

Anyhow... I'm off for dinner :)

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: J3Vr6 on June 03, 2004, 01:55:58 pm

what happens at warp 10?  Was that in an episode of voyager or something?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on June 03, 2004, 01:59:49 pm

Warp 10 makes you go infinitely fast.

Basically you slip completely into subspace and distance becomes irrelevant.

But it also mutates you into a strange horny fish.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: J3Vr6 on June 03, 2004, 02:01:25 pm

oooo, I wanna try!!!  I wanna be a horny fish!


Hey, remember when Murdock from the A-Team was a crew member of Next Generation and he was possessed by some other being on the other side of the universe and had him build a super warp drive that made them bend space and travel really really far?

Whatever happened with that?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Tiara on June 03, 2004, 03:09:22 pm

No, not a fish, a reptile :p

(http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/episodes/voy/threshold.jpg)
That's Janeway and Paris :D:p

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Tiara on June 03, 2004, 03:12:23 pm

Quote

Originally posted by J3Vr6

Hey, remember when Murdock from the A-Team was a crew member of Next Generation and he was possessed by some other being on the other side of the universe and had him build a super warp drive that made them bend space and travel really really far?

Whatever happened with that?

Warp 10 is infinite.

Lt. Barclay (his name in TNG) probably modified the Enterprise to something with a variation of slipstream and not breaching the Warp 10 barrier.. We saw that the space around the ship went all funky so it could probably be some sort of slipstream vortex.

Warp 9.9999 < Transwarp < Slipstream < Warp 10

It's somewhere in between, but the differences are HUGE. Hence the exponential growth in acceleration (speed) on the warp chart.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Liberator on June 03, 2004, 04:28:04 pm

For the lower class Trekkies in the Audience:

Warp 1 = C^1(lightspeed to the first power of ten)
Warp 2 = C^2(lightspeed squared)
Warp 3 = C^3(lightspeed cubed, you get the idea)
W4 = C^4
ECT
ECT

till you get to warp 9 where the increase becomes geometric.  That's the only way IS distances become manageable in Trek.

Now you know, and Knowing is half the battle!  GI JOOOOOOOOOOOOE!

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on June 03, 2004, 04:46:32 pm

Tiara:

(http://nodewar.penguinbomb.com/aotd/KT/bridge.jpg)

Alright, wierd angle, but I figured it out.

The bottom bridge is the Golden Gate, the one in the top right with the question mark is the Bay Bridge. Ignore the red line. Apparently that's supposed to be Angel Island and Tiburon, but they're missing a whole island.... :wtf:

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Tiara on June 03, 2004, 05:01:12 pm

(http://www.swooh.com/peon/Tiara/aisl.jpg)

:p

As seen here;

(http://www.parks.ca.gov/parkindex/p_maps/Angel_Island_SP.gif)

It's pretty accurate IMO... :p

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: ChronoReverse on June 03, 2004, 05:43:00 pm

The entire Warp speed factor thing got foobar'd ever since TNG when they made 10 the limit (with the explanation that they wanted to leave room for stuff like Q to be able to go at >10 warp factors.).

Then they tried explaining the warp 10 business and instead of saying that it took infinite energy to reach warp 10 under conventional warp (like the way it takes infinite energy to reach lightspeed with conventional drives), they said that Warp 10 is infinite speed so it took infinite energy to reach Warp 10.  Which is so stupid since you might as well then flatten the scale so that it scales to infinity instead (like we do ALL the time in science whenever a scale isn't linear... like pH for instance).

Then Voyager came along and it became even more fuxor'd.  Now they go about approaching the "threshold of infinity" (pure garbage) and they miraculously mutated into some weird thing that doesn't even make any sense at all.  Moreover, if they really were occupying every point n the universe at the same time, what are the chances of ending up back in the same area?



Not only that, this "Warp 10" business also completely messes up TOS since the Excelsior was capable of >Warp 10 speeds even without the transwarp drive (later on the relabeled it to a speed lower than 10).

To make it even worse, Transwarp, instead of being a new drive technology that allows for >Warp 10 speeds without the running into infinite energy requirement, has become this network of "conduits".



I so hate Voyager.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Tiara on June 03, 2004, 06:16:26 pm

Quote

Originally posted by ChronoReverse
To make it even worse, Transwarp, instead of being a new drive technology that allows for >Warp 10 speeds without the running into infinite energy requirement, has become this network of "conduits".

Wrong; Transwarp < Warp 10.

Transwarp would be along the lines of Warp 9.99999 (which would be 204850c). Such speeds can't be sustained by conventional warp drives in real space so transwarp conduits are formed to stabalize the whole thing.

Slipstream works in a similar fashion but still isn't warp 10. It would be a factor higher then transwarp (like 9.999999 or something) and can only be safely used in a slipstream vortex without tearing apart the ship itself.

The conduit acts as a second warp field. While normal warp fields would collapse under such speeds, the conduits let's the ship travel at these speeds nonetheless. Again, this is much the same in slipstream speeds.

Warp 10 is in realspace without conduits or a vortex however because the speed is infinite. And with infinite speeds you stand virtually still at every point in the universe at the same time.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on June 03, 2004, 07:16:36 pm

Quote

Originally posted by Tiara

It's pretty accurate IMO... :p

As I said....

It didn't seem right at first though, because Belevedere isn't there.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: ChronoReverse on June 03, 2004, 08:02:37 pm

@Tiara

Eh?  I thought I addressed the problem in my post already.

Warp >10 didn't used to be nonsense.  It became nonsense when they screwed everything up in TNG (and then even worse in Voyager).


Back in the days of TOS Warp 10 isn't infinite speed.  But conventional warp engines weren't too powerful.  Transwarp on the Excelsior was supposed to be the next generation warp technology to allow for >Warp 10.


In TNG they made Warp 10 the limit so that beings like Q can have their little niche (this is what the producers claimed).  But they screwed up when they decided to say that Warp 10 was infinite speed requiring infinite energy  rather than an arbitrary speed requiring infinite energy .



In any case, it doesn't really matter, because they're simply moving faster as you approach Warp 10.  Too bad it's really ridiculous at the point it's reach now.

"Captain!  We're going at Warp 9.999995, I can't hold her any longer!"
"Damnit!  But they're going at Waarp 9.9999951.  We're losing them fast!"

Instead, they're throwing around, Transwarp conduits and Slipstream drives to get around sounding too ridiculous.


They should've just kept a more linear scale instead.  Infinite speeds isn't even a misnomer, it's a misconcept.






To summarize.

(1) Warp 10 should've been an arbitrarily fast speed (not INFINITE) that requires infinite energy to achieve using convential warp engines.

This is like conventional drives and the speed of light.


(2) Transwarp should've been the new breakthrough technology (like warp drive to normal drive) that allows for speeds greater than Warp 10.

There should be another speed limit placed again (for the same reason Warp 10 was invented for TNG).


(3) Slipstream drive should be an alternate way of travel that, rather than using subspace to alter the physics so that greater-than-light-speeds don't require infinite energy, works like a shortcut instead.

This is similar to a wormhole.



Of course this is all impossible now that Voyager has been aired.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Ulala on June 03, 2004, 11:12:42 pm

*points to head* this thing hurts...

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Tiara on June 04, 2004, 01:39:09 am

Quote

Originally posted by ChronoReverse

To summarize.

(1) Warp 10 should've been an arbitrarily fast speed (not INFINITE) that requires infinite energy to achieve using convential warp engines.

This is like conventional drives and the speed of light.


(2) Transwarp should've been the new breakthrough technology (like warp drive to normal drive) that allows for speeds greater than Warp 10.

There should be another speed limit placed again (for the same reason Warp 10 was invented for TNG).


(3) Slipstream drive should be an alternate way of travel that, rather than using subspace to alter the physics so that greater-than-light-speeds don't require infinite energy, works like a shortcut instead.

This is similar to a wormhole.

Of course this is all impossible now that Voyager has been aired.

Warp isn't as much as a reference to absolute speeds as it is to the energy requirment to sustain a warp field around a vessel. In TOS they might've used a different scale on different engines. As the Engines got better, the scale got changed up to Warp 10.

Also, TOS is a VERY BAD place to compare stuff with. They had engines that could carry a ship across the universe in a day or two if it suited the plot. In TOS almost everything is based on plot devices and action instead of technological consistency. Voyager is more consistent with DS9, TNG and Enterprise then TOS ever was.

As for Transwarp and slipstream, I really don't agree with you there. They are fine the way they are. Really fast. But instead of saying "go to warp 9.999999" They just say "Go to transwarp/slipstream".

So, frankly, your ideas would screw up ST more then would be necessary. Way more. Consistency in ST tends to be built on TNG and up. Not TOS like you're reffering to.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: an0n on June 04, 2004, 02:03:34 am

Oh and Warp10 isn't infinite speed.

The entire principle of Warp technology in the Trek universe is that the drive coils form a subspace bubble around the ship and shift it slightly into subspace. The higher the warp factor, the deeper into subspace you go.

Warp10 is basically skimming along the boundaries between being almost fully in subspace and being fully in subspace. So the slightest particle vibration can shift your atoms millions of lightyears in any given direction as they shift into subspace where distance is irrelevant, their tiny amount of inertia moves them to some random point in subspace, then they shift back into the semi-realspace lightyear away. The only thing stopping the craft and crew from exploding is that the fraction of the ship that remains outside subspace is still generating a subspace field that is holding it all together and brings it back into realspace intact when the engines are powered down and the bubble collapses.

And when the bubble does collapse, it drops the craft wherever it was when it entered subspace. That's why the Warp10 shuttle didn't end up billions of lightyears away; It was only any distance away because of the Warp9.X speeds it was travelling at before it hit Warp10.

Also, it required some new form of dilithium that was more stable at higher energy bands and could only be found in the Delta Quadrant. So Starfleet could never hope to put it into use for Warp9.999X speeds.

And where Warp uses a bubble, Slipstream uses a tunnel through subspace to eliminate the 'friction' around the ship so it goes faster.

Transwarp drives are a cross between the two, creating a spindle-shaped field to reduce friction, but not eliminate it.

Borg Transwarp drives are faster than Slipstream but work on the same principles, only with much more power.

Borg Transwarp Conduits are similar to Slipstream, but use collosal structures and massive amounts of energy to not only bend and warp subspace, but to tear the **** out of it. They're less a case of pushing an object through subspace and more a case of forcing space to manifest inside subspace and letting a ship move through that space normally. It's kinda like space-folding.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: ChronoReverse on June 04, 2004, 11:59:11 am

Almost.  The role of dilithium crystals has changed somewhat.  As of TNG their purpose is "merely" to be a conduit for antimatter and matter streams to merge and form they patented "trek plasma" which powers their warp coils (and also flows all over the ship so that the panels can explode dramatically during fights).

I won't disagree too much about the subspace field part, although I must point out that the shaping of the field does matter to warp efficiency.

Moreover, are you familiar with the reason for the Trek logo?  If you are then you should realize a minor flaw in your explanation of warp.

Quote

And when the bubble does collapse, it drops the craft wherever it was when it entered subspace. That's why the Warp10 shuttle didn't end up billions of lightyears away; It was only any distance away because of the Warp9.X speeds it was travelling at before it hit Warp 10.

Now if that were true, wouldn't it be completely useless to even think about achieving Warp 10?

Additionally, if Warp 10 is the theoretical "infinite speed" and they have to "accelerate" to Warp 10, then it's a complete fallacy.


Voyager should have said it was a way to boost Warp efficieny ten-fold or a hundred-fold.  But to claim the Warp 10 business is again ridiculous ><



Can't say much about transwarp.  After all, it originally was conceived to be a next generation warp drive and is now something different.


[edit]  I realize the problem now.  I'm not being too clear on my position.

All I'm really trying to say is that the Trek producers have a habit of messing things up to the point where it can't make sense.

That doesn't really stop me from watching Trek anyways.
[/edit]

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: StratComm on June 04, 2004, 12:29:15 pm

Trek warp scales have always been screwy.  There are three distinct things that canonically happen at warp 10: the "everywhere at once" BS of Voyager, the time warp bit from Star Trek 4, and absolutely nothing from TNG (all good things, part 2 I believe, with warp 13).  So there is no canon answer.  Voyager and now Enterprise have gone way beyond that issue in how they've screwed things up though, so modern Trek doesn't interest me.  The last good show was DS9.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: J3Vr6 on June 04, 2004, 01:10:59 pm

do u guys realize how many pages u guys spent talking about how a tv show interprets warp?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Tiara on June 04, 2004, 01:49:09 pm

Yeah, we're geeks. We know.

:p

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Kazan on June 04, 2004, 02:17:44 pm

StratComm: i'm betting Warp 13 is actually a stage of transwarp

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: ChronoReverse on June 04, 2004, 03:32:10 pm

Remember, this is AGT which was TNG.  The TNG producers made Warp 10 the limit for Federation standard warp drives.  This is to leave >10 warp factors for beings like Q and the Traveller.

Unfortunately, the TNG technical manual (btw, I hate most of the technical manuals since they're often wrong or introduce ideas that are stupid and yet are adopted by future series; case in point, the TNG technical manual and Voyager) decided to make Warp 10 infinite speed.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: J3Vr6 on June 04, 2004, 04:20:55 pm

How can a technical manual for a science fiction tv show based on things that haven't even been invented be wrong?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: ChronoReverse on June 04, 2004, 05:16:11 pm

Internal Inconsistency.  The bane of story writers.

The other problem is when something is said that results in "workarounds" to avoid sounding ridiculous.

Title: heh
Post by: Star Dragon on June 04, 2004, 06:41:31 pm

This is one of my FAVORITE QOUTES ever!

  "Cannon is something argued about by people, describing that which exists, on things that do not exist."

   I changed the wording it said SHIPS but since this works for all sci-fi I changed it to things...

  Whenever someone starts getting bent out of shape and screams CANNON! I shake my head and laugh at them.

  I rememebr reading an old TOS novel that takes place with captain scott and some crystaline spider engineers. High warp speeds were tearing the space time continuim apart and allowing other dimensions to seep in. Starfleet put a moritorium on HIGH warp travel (I think it was over warp 7) but they came up with a way to reconfigure the warp engines on all starships to reduce this strain on the universe... has anyone else read this book? IT also describes WHY warp 10 is unfeasible... I think Scotty says something like once you achieve warp 10 (even IF they had the power to break that barrier) you're screwed cause you can never slow down, you continue on for infinity.. (if I got this wrong I read this book only 1 time in 1986 so sue me).

I won't say cannon, but this was written by one of the authors that wrote TONS of ST books so a little creativity on thier part, but still a very enjoyable story none the less.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on June 04, 2004, 08:39:47 pm

Quote

Originally posted by J3Vr6
do u guys realize how many pages u guys spent talking about how a tv show interprets warp?

And you do realise you're on a board filled with Science Fiction geeks? If you're going to questyion us going on about something, you might want to go with a more off-topic item. Like the Economy, or Mormons.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Omniscaper on June 04, 2004, 09:27:39 pm

Sigh, ok this is what I've learned from Trek science.

Last summer, the best speed to distance ratio I've achieved utilizing my structural and metabolically conditioned carbon vessel was 1200 meters in under one sixth of an hour.  After researching maintainance procedures and different forms of energy sources for metabolic absorbtion, I was able to formulate a strict regiment to maximize kinetic efficiency. Negatively, this new found efficiency has increased energy absorbtion requirements. In light of this, I have reevaluated my energy sources. I have found that a reduced glucose and increased protein consumption has helped overhaul structural limits and increased overall mass and integrity. That in conjunction with increased fiberous intake to help keep all internal metabolic conduits flowing at peak effficiency. Otherwise, excess methane exhaust would be the result along with unnecessary toxic contamination of lower stern exhaust shafts.

Hows my vinacular?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Grey Wolf on June 04, 2004, 09:46:12 pm

IIRC, the old TOS warp factors were equal to X^3, where X was the warp factor.

Title: Re: heh
Post by: Ace on June 05, 2004, 01:37:53 am

Quote

Originally posted by Star Dragon
This is one of my FAVORITE QOUTES ever!

  "Cannon is something argued about by people, describing that which exists, on things that do not exist."

   I changed the wording it said SHIPS but since this works for all sci-fi I changed it to things...

  Whenever someone starts getting bent out of shape and screams CANNON! I shake my head and laugh at them.

  I rememebr reading an old TOS novel that takes place with captain scott and some crystaline spider engineers. High warp speeds were tearing the space time continuim apart and allowing other dimensions to seep in. Starfleet put a moritorium on HIGH warp travel (I think it was over warp 7) but they came up with a way to reconfigure the warp engines on all starships to reduce this strain on the universe... has anyone else read this book? IT also describes WHY warp 10 is unfeasible... I think Scotty says something like once you achieve warp 10 (even IF they had the power to break that barrier) you're screwed cause you can never slow down, you continue on for infinity.. (if I got this wrong I read this book only 1 time in 1986 so sue me).

I won't say cannon, but this was written by one of the authors that wrote TONS of ST books so a little creativity on thier part, but still a very enjoyable story none the less.

Using that book's idea you could actually easily write around the warp 10 thing.

Energy requirements for standard warp leading up to 10 become exponential leading to the: "Keptin! They're going warp 9.99999999999951!"

Warp 10 itself is its own thing, easy to get to but impossible to get out of. In Voyager they figured out a trick to break out of warp 10 which caused that whole stupid devolving thing.

Past Warp 10, you'd return to the normal exponential system. Some super duper advanced engines would then be able to do the standard warps past the "Warp 10 barrier" going back to the normal speed increases.

But bah! It's not worth trying to write around gaping holes like that.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Liberator on June 05, 2004, 02:16:24 am

The name of the book was "The Wounded Sky".  It centered around the Chrystaline Spider Lady, who invented a thing she called an Inversion Drive, which essentially allowed a ship to teleport large distances by transferring into DeSitter Space, which has something to do with a mathematic theorem and has infinite space, time, temperature,  ect while at the same time has no space, time, temperature and all that.  The problem is that the longer the drive is on, the further you go, but the more damage is done to the fabric of spacetime.  As the story progresses, the CSL discovers that they have ripped a hole in spacetime that connects to a protouniverse complete with protogod.  The crew eventually tames the protogod and the CSL seals the breach using the Inversion Drive and kick starting the protouniverse by starting time and giving the protogod a game to play called Life.  It's really one of the better Trek novels, if a bit far fetched at times.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Bobboau on June 05, 2004, 02:24:42 am

proto-...god.?...
...
...
:wtf:

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Liberator on June 05, 2004, 02:44:15 am

Don't ask me, read the book.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Bobboau on June 05, 2004, 03:06:40 am

there is science fiction and then there is science _FICTION_

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: WMCoolmon on June 05, 2004, 03:43:24 am

Quote

The crew eventually tames the protogod and the CSL seals the breach using the Inversion Drive and kick starting the protouniverse by starting time and giving the protogod a game to play called Life. It's really one of the better Trek novels, if a bit far fetched at times.

Uhm...a bit? :p

Meh, just as long as it isn't like that stupid Q book with pages full of barely-coherent text it could still be...alright...

Title: LIBERATOR!!!
Post by: Star Dragon on June 05, 2004, 01:16:12 pm

You got it spot on!

  Mega UBER cookie for you!

  I would have applied to that show "Beat the Geeks" on MTV, but there is know way I could ever beat tehm in the final rounds... My Geek-Fu is too weak.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Liberator on June 05, 2004, 01:58:31 pm

The thing(TWS) doesn't really even read like a Star Trek book, I mean they spend a chapter or two dealing with the Klingons and their new "Hyper-Phasers" and Sulu gets to show off his piloting skillz and give Scotty a heart attack in the process by performing acrobatic manuvers at warp because phasers don't work at Warp speeds(at least in this book).  But after that, it's more a traditional sci-fi romp rather than a Trek adventure.  It's really quite good.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on June 05, 2004, 03:16:25 pm

I didn't think you could do acrobatic manuevers in Warp.. or fire phasers...

And in TOS< the warp speeds were crazy. Like fifth movie where they go to the center of the galaxy in a few days.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Ghostavo on June 05, 2004, 03:28:34 pm

Wasn't there one episode on Voyager where they discovered another federation vessel who was using some alien beings to go really really fast? If so at what speed where they flying?

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: ChronoReverse on June 05, 2004, 03:33:35 pm

It was an alien being pretending to be a federation vessel.  It utilized a slipstream drive which is far faster than any federation warp drive is capable of.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Carl on June 05, 2004, 03:36:24 pm

really fast...but not that fast. pretty fast. i would say pretty fast.

...maybe kind of fast.

i'm being scientific!

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on June 05, 2004, 03:36:26 pm

No, he's talking about the Equinox (Captained by Rudy Ransom, Nova-Class). They were using the Etherians as fuel somehow, because they had lost most of their deuterium reserves IIRC. I think It let them go warp 9.5 or sommat, bu tthey were getting along much faster than Voyager, although Voyager was always exploring everywhere.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Carl on June 05, 2004, 03:38:03 pm

Quote

Originally posted by ChronoReverse
It was an alien being pretending to be a federation vessel.  It utilized a slipstream drive which is far faster than any federation warp drive is capable of.

no, no, no. you're thinking about something else. he's taking about the U.S.S. Equinox, another ship that was thrown into the delta quadrant while in the badlands.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Carl on June 05, 2004, 03:39:23 pm

jinks!:D

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: übermetroid on June 06, 2004, 10:51:59 am

I had no idea that so many people liked trek on these boards..  :D

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Carl on June 06, 2004, 12:40:18 pm

it's a board about a scifi game. go figure.

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: Knight Templar on June 06, 2004, 02:33:11 pm

Strange concept there...

Title: Enterprise finale
Post by: NeoHunter on July 18, 2004, 09:18:11 am

Strange? I do not think so.

Almost everybody here is interested in sci-fi and space in someway or another. How to avoid discussions on Star Trek?:)

The U.S.S Equinox was using those alien beings to increase their warp speed by a few fractions I think. Still, the crew is stupid enough not to find some deuterium on some planet in the Delta Quandrant instead of incur the wrath of those aliens and get killed in the process.