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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: diamondgeezer on May 29, 2004, 06:55:18 pm

Title: Grudge Match
Post by: diamondgeezer on May 29, 2004, 06:55:18 pm
Who would win in a fight?

(http://www.volition-inc.com/fs/images/screens/fullsize/fscut-shivan.jpg)

(http://outflux.net/images/collection/images/alien-clear.gif)

If you need either beasty identified, you're a loser
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Flipside on May 29, 2004, 06:57:41 pm
Shivan, he'd just beam cannon his way to victory :D
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: diamondgeezer on May 29, 2004, 06:59:40 pm
And risk acid-blooding his ship's hull?
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 29, 2004, 07:00:11 pm
Aliens are fast as ****. Havent you ever played the game? He'd just dodge his way to victory :D

DG: that too, that **** would eat a hole clean through the hull.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: aldo_14 on May 29, 2004, 07:01:02 pm
Alien.  Becuase 'e looks ****ing evil compared to the shivan.

Oh, and alien-Shivan hybrid anyone?
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: an0n on May 29, 2004, 07:04:29 pm
The Aliens are tiny compared to Shivans. If it was 1-on-1 the Shivan would just grab the Alien, crush it and smash its brains out all over the wall.

And Shivans can stand up to Terran gunfire, so a little bit of acid probably wouldn't do much.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: jdjtcagle on May 29, 2004, 07:07:34 pm
Shivan
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 29, 2004, 07:08:32 pm
Xenomorphs are like giant water balloons filled with acid. thats more that a litte bit. And unless your sayin that shivan hides are thicker and stronger than starship hulls, anon, well...
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Rictor on May 29, 2004, 07:09:44 pm
Gish!

...errr...yeah.

:wtf: :wtf:
Title: face it
Post by: Star Dragon on May 29, 2004, 07:31:25 pm
1 - 1 (like this poll suggests) SHIVAN WINS

I suggest you watch the hall fight scene again.

If it was X - 1 then the Shivan would be overrun (I doubt any race could stand up to say 6 or more Xenos acting in a bersek rush on one poor fool)

Both races can operate in space for a short amount of time. the Shivan IS armored so the acid will have little or a delayed effect, normal guns can kill a Xeno so the advanced weapons built into the shivan (bio energy?) will disintergrate the Xeno. Plus the Shivan's claw seemed as equally vorpal as the Xeno's talons and tail so it can safely hold it in place for beaming it with out worring about getting cut.

Thoughts? ;)

BTW what does are resident Shivan have to say (my name is Carl as well, can he be my alien brother?) :lol:
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: jdjtcagle on May 29, 2004, 07:37:57 pm
Well, we have never seen shivans fight in gravity, sooooo....
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 29, 2004, 07:43:02 pm
Just FYI, Xeno's can survive indefinatley in open space

As I never played FS1 (:() I've never seen the Hall Fight Cutscene.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Flipside on May 29, 2004, 07:47:58 pm
A Shivan is likely to care about the acid no more than the Alien is going to care about the Beam Cannon, and for more or less the same reasons, and the heat of the beam would probably vaporise the acid to be honest.

I don't think a single Alien would be much of a threat to a Shivan.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: jdjtcagle on May 29, 2004, 07:58:15 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
Just FYI, Xeno's can survive indefinatley in open space

As I never played FS1 (:() I've never seen the Hall Fight Cutscene.


So can the shivans, from the Silent Threat movies
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 29, 2004, 08:01:12 pm
I was correcting star dragon, didnt know if the same applied to shivans :p
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: an0n on May 29, 2004, 08:03:20 pm
It took the GTA frickin hours to drill into the....err...Taranis?

I think their ships can stand up to a little acid, so that point is moot.

And all the Aliens do is hack and slash, and if a Shivan can shrug off gun-fire, I doubt a claw is going to do much to hurt it. The Shivans are so horrifically well armoured that they probably wouldn't even bother trying to kill in the Aliens once they'd infested the ship.

If they did try to exterminate them, the Shivans have the whole hive-mind thing going on, so they could quickly and easily corner the Xenos and cook them with their bio-cannons.

There's also the matter of shields. The Shivans could just pen the Aliens in then slowly move the forcefields inwards till they crushed the Xenos into one big mess of acid and black chunks.

And all that is contingent on the Shivans ever doing anything that would bring them into contact with the Xenos. For that to happen they'd have to be doing something totally out of character like salvaging a Terran vessel or taking a planet.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Corsair on May 29, 2004, 08:03:46 pm
Shivan, simply because he's just so badass.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: jdjtcagle on May 29, 2004, 08:04:37 pm
Jetmech Jr.:
Have you played the port?
Have you heard Fs1 Music?
YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE CUTSCENES!?! :eek2:
Man, you have been missing out :nod:
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 29, 2004, 08:06:54 pm
Ive played the port
Heard some of the music
No I havent seen the CS's :( Pity me.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 29, 2004, 08:26:26 pm
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
It took the GTA frickin hours to drill into the....err...Taranis?

I think their ships can stand up to a little acid, so that point is moot.

 


We're not talking about there ships, we're talking about the Shivan THEMSELVES, so this point is moot :p

Quote
Originally posted by an0n
And all the Aliens do is hack and slash, and if a Shivan can shrug off gun-fire, I doubt a claw is going to do much to hurt it.

 


Hmm, suppose i have to give this one to ya, guess that leaves their spitting acid


Quote
Originally posted by an0n
If they did try to exterminate them, the Shivans have the whole hive-mind thing going on, so they could quickly and easily corner the Xenos and cook them with their bio-cannons.

 


First off, its 1 vs 1, so hive mind isnt much of an issue. moot.
Second speed is key
Third, xenomorphs have a hive mind too

Quote
Originally posted by an0n
There's also the matter of shields. The Shivans could just pen the Aliens in then slowly move the forcefields inwards till they crushed the Xenos into one big mess of acid and black chunks.

 


Another moot point, since its 1 vs 1

Quote
Originally posted by an0n
And all that is contingent on the Shivans ever doing anything that would bring them into contact with the Xenos. For that to happen they'd have to be doing something totally out of character like salvaging a Terran vessel or taking a planet.

 


jeez, another one? moot, for reasons above.

taking all into consideration, I think I'll change my opinion to hesitant shivan win. More than one xeno, though, or if its the queen...
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: jdjtcagle on May 29, 2004, 08:36:11 pm
What kind of connection do you have Jetmech??
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: DragonClaw on May 29, 2004, 08:38:05 pm
I think a match between Xenos and Starship trooper bugs would be much more interesting, though I'd have to say the Xeno's would kick ass...
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 29, 2004, 08:40:54 pm
jd: Cable, but why do ya want to know?

I'm curious about predator vs. shivan :)
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: diamondgeezer on May 29, 2004, 09:05:08 pm
I was considering making it a triple threat rules match, along with the ST arachnid. I didn't 'cos I'm lazy and I was busy illegally downloading music
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: jdjtcagle on May 29, 2004, 09:09:20 pm
Check your PM's Jetmech Jr.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Bobboau on May 29, 2004, 10:05:21 pm
Shivan.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Liberator on May 30, 2004, 12:18:55 am
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
Just FYI, Xeno's can survive indefinatley in open space
 


Umm, no.  You see, the only too we've actually seen exposed to vacuum were the original and the Queen in Aliens.  The first one was torched with the shuttles engines before it could give way, but the Queen went sailing out of the Sulaco like a bat outta hell, the ***** lasted about 15 seconds before she exploded like a bomb.  So that'd be a no on the whole Xenomorphs can exist in a vacuum.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 30, 2004, 12:37:37 am
What movie you watchin? She never exploded. And read the comics (particularly Nightmare Asylum). Xenomorphs were fighting on the hull of a spacecraft and not exploding.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Liberator on May 30, 2004, 03:23:31 am
I'll have to rewatch it tomorrow then to check.  No living thing can exist in a vacuum, certainly nothing with as high an internal pressure as Xenomorphs seem to have.

Note:  I use films only as canon.  If the comics have been sanctioned as canon by the creators great, otherwise I use films only.

BTW, before this gets out of hand, Shivans pwn in zero- or low-g, but I doubt they would retain their advantage and full-g.  They would still win because they have the guns and limited vulnerability.  A more interesting challenge would be to put a Shivan up again a Predator.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Bobboau on May 30, 2004, 03:35:53 am
I agree with the Shivan vs Preditor thing, they have the fire power to make it a fair  1 on  1 match, I think it would come down to the environment (I'm thinking about gravity mostly here)
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: karajorma on May 30, 2004, 03:48:54 am
Shivans. The Xeno wouldn't have a hope in hell.

As for the FS1 movies they're all still up on Fractux's FTP. He only took down the FS2 ones.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Nico on May 30, 2004, 03:54:32 am
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
First off, its 1 vs 1, so hive mind isnt much of an issue. moot.
Second speed is key
Third, xenomorphs have a hive mind too


and 4th, An0n pulled the shivan hive mind out of his ass, nothing never even remotely indicated that. At most, everything proves that they're not working with the hive mind system.

Since one of the aliens strengh is the pack attack, a 1VS1 is obviously unfair. Then people seem to underestimate the strengh of both the xeno and its acid. They can rip metal doors with bare hands ( Aliens ), they can sustain the horrible mass and temperature of boiling lead - lead, for god's sake! ( Alien3 ), and their acid can go through glass, which means it's quite strong ( Alien resurection )... Not mentioning their way faster than the clumsy shivans wich are, according to the pics, far from being fully covered by their armor, btw ( underside, arm joints, neck and, of course, the aliens favorite target: the face... ). Slowass shivans would get a 6th eye before really being able to do nutz.

As for the winner, the xenomorph, coz as powerful the shivan may be, the alien looks so much cooler, so he wins, solely on the coolness factor :D
And I just prefer them anyway :p


Liberator: who do you want to sanction the comics as canon? There's no "ruler" like Lucas for Starwars. 20th Century Fox has the rights, so those who would get the rights would probbaly considered canon... but then again I can't consider Tarzan VS alien to be canon :p
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Bobboau on May 30, 2004, 04:02:42 am
the move slowly becase there in  zero G, the Xeno is gona be moveing slowly to in such an environment unless he clings to the walls all the time in wich case he makes an exelent target.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Setekh on May 30, 2004, 07:53:03 am
Shivan wins for size - its weapon wouldn't be any good in close quarters because of Alien's speed, but the Shivan would win the ensuing melee. Exoskeleton versus exoskeleton, though, might take a little while longer than Hall Fight. :p
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 30, 2004, 08:51:22 am
Yeah, but the queen would knock a shivan flat on it's arse in close combat.

Tarzan vs Aliens= Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad :shaking:

Xeno's move just as fast clinging to walls as on the ground.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Flaser on May 30, 2004, 09:37:15 am
Whoever deals the first blow - there is no guarantee in combat. The Shivans have better armor and higher strength -and I doubt they come even to a mediocre level of their potential to their full battle rage in Hall Fight - they might have been slightly amused/annoyed at first with humans...that's why the unknowing marines could wonder and babble about "What the hell is that?"

...as for Xenos - hell, they are even faster and I dount zero-g would be too much of a trouble for them, but a Shivan is stronger....

..hence my conclusion: however deals the first blow.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: diamondgeezer on May 30, 2004, 10:13:12 am
Quote
Originally posted by Liberator
Umm, no.  You see, the only too we've actually seen exposed to vacuum were the original and the Queen in Aliens.  The first one was torched with the shuttles engines before it could give way, but the Queen went sailing out of the Sulaco like a bat outta hell, the ***** lasted about 15 seconds before she exploded like a bomb.  So that'd be a no on the whole Xenomorphs can exist in a vacuum.

It's a good idea to get the facts straight before lecturing
Title: come on guys
Post by: Star Dragon on May 30, 2004, 11:38:15 am
Keep it friendly now!


  As for speed I think they are almost evenly matched if I rememebr how quickly the Shivans traversed their huge tunnels.


  yeah! I would liek to see a Predator Vs Shivan match!  That would be way to close to call as the Predator uses real tactics from logic and not just brute instinct a Xeno does. Though I think strenght wise a Shivan can throw a Predator around as easily as a Pred throws a Human (rememebr ring the poor smuck in the shivans claw and how effortlessly it tossed the guy one handed).. Quick someone figure out stats and then animate this!!! PLEASE! and make it random so sometimes the pred can win! Then we can make bets on it for imaginary credits... FS Fight Club!

  Rule #1: There is NO FS Fight Club!
(feel free to make more rules)
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: adwight on May 30, 2004, 11:40:31 am
Shivans would own them.  The beam cannon in their head would be moe than enough to deep fry a Xeno.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 30, 2004, 11:42:45 am
Well, from the FS2 Tech database on the Shivans, and that little clip it showed of the shivan moving through tunnels to attack the camera, the shivans actually seem to have average speed. Compared to the xeno's, though, they're very slow.

and as to p vs s, I think predator would win (provided that its not close combat, or LONG range. Shivans would own, then). Camo/ plasmacaster, then speargun right in the head,
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: diamondgeezer on May 30, 2004, 11:50:16 am
I think rule #1 is perfectly adequate

The thing about bugs is they aren't ruled purely by instinct and brute force tactics. It all depends on what kind of set-up they've got going on. You need to remember that the hive always operates intelligently. The hive can consist of a queen and a hundred drones, or a single isolated runner, but overall the hive operates with pretty sophisticated intelligence.

You recall in Alien and Alien3 how one bug wiped out hordes of people in no time at all? And in Aliens how they died en masse even thought they outwitted the marines on several occasions? Well, apart from the armamanet of the humies involved in those films, the crucial factor is the hive intellignce.

A hive like the one encounterd on LV426 operates intelligently overall to protect the queen and further the alien population. Now, the individual drones and runners will throw themselves in to a fight with no hesitation, happilly sacrificing themselves for the collective good of the hive. But when you've got an isolated specimen things are different. An isolated drone is far more dangerous than the same drone in a pack because it's more intelligent.

An isolated drone is the hive. And as such it is capable of operating intelligently to protect the hive, and thus itself. It will attack with the ferocity of the collective but it will also plan ahead to limit the danger to itself. The drones which cut the power to the POC in Aliens were working under the guidance of the hive mind - in an attack they just hurled themselves against the marines' guns without a thought for their own safety. An isolated drone wouldn't make such suicidal attacks.

Thus, when considering the question of whether a Shivan or a Xenomorph would win in a fight, we must determine whether or not the bug is part of a bigger hive or isolated.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 30, 2004, 11:59:33 am
DG: Just remembered something. Did you take into account the different types of Xenomorphs in the movies?

Runner (Alien3: Faster than others but less armor)
Drone (Alien: Average all-around fighter)
Warrior (Aliens: Bred specifically to protect the hive)
Praetorian (Only in the Games: Like a small queen, but far, far better armored. Bulletproof)
Queen (Aliens and Alien Ressurection: something like 4-5 meters tall, stronger than all other Xenomorphs)
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: karajorma on May 30, 2004, 12:01:34 pm
Who says the camo would have any effect on a shivan?

 Once you get rid of that it's just plasmacaster vs beam cannon. I know what I'm betting is on there :D

Quote
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Thus, when considering the question of whether a Shivan or a Xenomorph would win in a fight, we must determine whether or not the bug is part of a bigger hive or isolated.


True DG but this is basically a 1 on 1 pit fight senario. If you're introducing the possibility of tactics and strategy being involved then you're got to remember than shivans can be sneaky SOBs too. We just didn't see it much in FS2 cause their master plan revolved around Capella.
Title: well
Post by: Star Dragon on May 30, 2004, 12:06:36 pm
I'm not saying a single Xeno is programmed to be stupid. Notice it is NOT a tactical Genuis but is a simple predatory creature stalkin it's prey and then hiding while it digests them or needs to rest. (talking about Alien 1 and 3) the number of prey eventually stalked and kill means nothing except that it does it fulfills it's purpose very well. Busting down a door or any otehr brute force tactic to get at you prey is only a matter of time not intelligence. Not if teh drones were EVER to be seen using a toll or a comp THEN I would be impressed. I can respect their natural comabt capabilities, but I would never count on then to win a fight 1 on one as a properly equipted (and trained) Human soldier is much more dealy and imaginative then most other life forms (that's why we win most of the time, IE Aliens, predator,others...ect..) Plus the script says so dammit!

  As for Aliens 2 and 4 of course the queen overides the basic programming with HER own strategy and tactics. If she decides to force the drones to attack in mass she has decided that overwhelming the defenders is the tactic to use at that time. If they do NOT destroy routes leading right to their prey then again it was HER will that stayed their hand. I think of the Xenos as really dangerous BEES... I don;t know about the comics, but I definately think someone engineered them for a purpose (maybe the predators? they hint at in in different sources for their ultimate thrill hunts.)

EDIT  oh and the frozen Nitrogen button the alien hits on the guards (I think) is not super intelligence, it is a LEANED behavior (ie pavlov's dogs) if someone shocks me enough with a stun gun SOMEDAY I will find a way to get it and stun him back, especailly if the equasion is [touch this[ = [cause pain in the room]!. :lol:
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 30, 2004, 12:07:51 pm
kara: How do you know it doesnt :p

PC has a good deal more mobility than the Beam. Pred can keep movin to dodge the beam and have the PC keep locked and firing just by looking at the shivan.

Star dragon:

Preds actually just harvest the alien eggs to train warriors. They invade a hive (usually with about 10 or more members) and attempt to capture the queen, which they then use as a source of eggs.

And Learned behaviour IS a sign of High (In a sense) intelligence.
Truthfully, though, you're right about the Alien not being super intelligent. That honor goes to the queen. the drones and such just seem to have really good instincts when it comes to stuff like guerrilla tactics (i.e picking off one enemy at a time and sneaking around).
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: karajorma on May 30, 2004, 12:33:52 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
kara: How do you know it doesnt :p


We don't know. That's my point. Without it the Pred would lose. With it it may stand more of a chance.

Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
PC has a good deal more mobility than the Beam. Pred can keep movin to dodge the beam and have the PC keep locked and firing just by looking at the shivan.


Again, we don't know that. We only ever see the beam used once. Against an imoblile target. If the beam is a slasher I'm predicting that the pred would be on the floor in two seperate pieces the second it tried that dodging around ****. :D
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Bobboau on May 30, 2004, 01:00:57 pm
preditors have a lot of technology on there side, and assumeing it had some idea what it was up against I'm sure it would be packing an apropriate cloak, high powered weapons, sensors to trak the shivan around corners ect
we do know that the Shivan beam cannon takes a second or two to warm up, this should be enough time for the preditor to get around a corner or something. I think the shivans best bet would be to try to get in close as the preditor is physicly much weaker, and the little glowy knife thing I think would be extreemly effective.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Ghostavo on May 30, 2004, 02:44:18 pm
Why bother? Why not just nuke the planet from orbit? Or supernovae the place up?
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Knight Templar on May 30, 2004, 03:26:45 pm
Carl would win.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 30, 2004, 03:55:35 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ghostavo
Why bother? Why not just nuke the planet from orbit? Or supernovae the place up?


Read the entire thread. 1v1 grudge match.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Ghostavo on May 30, 2004, 04:04:40 pm
Why b-o-t-h-e-r to f-i-g-h-t when:

- They cannot make any kind of encounter due to the nature of both beings (0 Grav and planet).

- The shivans never board, invade, or capture any kind of ships/planets/instalations (with the exception of the Iceni).

- The shivans have much more effective ways of making a species extinct than go through that sort of crude combat.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 30, 2004, 04:08:04 pm
:sigh: Allright, this whole thread is based on an assumption  like this: A xenomorph and a shivan are thrown together in a little arena to fight to the death. Who would win? :doubt:
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Ghostavo on May 30, 2004, 04:09:49 pm
Then the assumption is incorrect and both would comite suicide m'okay? :D :p

(ok, the shivan would win :nervous: )
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 30, 2004, 04:12:51 pm
:lol:
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: an0n on May 30, 2004, 05:08:16 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
We're not talking about there ships, we're talking about the Shivan THEMSELVES, so this point is moot :p
The battleground is important.
Quote
taking all into consideration, I think I'll change my opinion to hesitant shivan win. More than one xeno, though, or if its the queen...
So you declared most of my points moot on the basis that they considered multiple combatants, then added a proviso to your own analysis based on....oh, look: Multiple combatants.


Against a Xeno, Warrior Bug or Predator, a Shivan would kick the living **** out of its opponent and rape their crushed remains.

The Xeno would be torn to pieces without a second thought. It wouldn't even be worth warming up the bio-cannon to vapourise.

The Warrior bug MIGHT tear the Shivan up some with its mini-spikes above its eyes, but the Shivan could just leap over its head and tear out its nerve stem from behind, or plasma it from afar.

A Predator might have a chance inside a complicated, factory-like environment where it could set traps and make hit-n-run attacks, but in a simple battle arena the Predator would be backed into a corner and torn to pieces before it could even think about attacking.

The Shivans as fast as and stronger than most non-humanoids (Bugs); and they're tough and strong enough to stay standing till they get a chance to make a single-hit kill on faster, humanoid targets.

The only thing that could threaten a Shivan is an Alien Queen, which could possibly spear the Shivan in the head before it had a chance to plasma the *****.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Liberator on May 30, 2004, 06:36:11 pm
I only have one problem with the previous post:

Quote
Originally posted by an0n
Against a Xeno, Warrior Bug or Predator, a Shivan would kick the living **** out of its opponent and rape their crushed remains.


We don't know that the Shivans use any sort of sexual processes for procreation.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: diamondgeezer on May 30, 2004, 08:21:23 pm
You've got serious problems that need sorting, you have
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 30, 2004, 08:23:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
The battleground is important.



No doubt, but who said that a shivan ship was the battleground?
In addition, you were stating that shivan ships were immune to the acid, whereas I was saying shivans were not. Thats why I considered that a moot point

Quote
Originally posted by an0n
So you declared most of my points moot on the basis that they considered multiple combatants, then added a proviso to your own analysis based on....oh, look: Multiple combatants.


I changed my own opinion on who would win based on facts presented in the previous posts about the shivans that were unknown to me. Nothing to do with the multiple combatants.

Most of your argument ignores almost every single defensive and offensive ability of any non-shivan race. Beam cannons? Deadly for sure, but capable of being evaded. Backing the predator into a corner? Thats assuming the shivan can even see the pred, and that the pred doesn't stick a combistick right in its face. As for size and strength and speed, well I still see the xenos as being faster, and quite strong, but the shivan probably has the upper hand in terms of size and strength, but not speed.

EDIT: anon, regarding the warrior bug, what eyes are you talking about?

EDIT2:what would happen between a Facehugger and a shivan?:D
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Liberator on May 30, 2004, 10:06:59 pm
Do Shivans even have mouths?
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 30, 2004, 10:08:57 pm
dont matter. Facehuggers can secrete some of their acid blood to burn a viable orifice.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Liberator on May 30, 2004, 10:15:02 pm
Okay, but are the internals of a Shivan a suitable enviroment for Xenomorph gestation?

Some theories suggest there is nothing inside the armor but an organized Subspace energy matrix, others that the Shivans are crazy advanced robot.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: IceFire on May 30, 2004, 10:22:23 pm
Shivans win because:

- Capable of living in zero-g, zero atmosphere vacum
- Built in beam weaponry
- Durable protective suit
- Relatively fast and rediculously strong
- Will strategically torch xenomorphs wherever they are (by blowing up their planet or star as required)
Title: HA HA
Post by: Star Dragon on May 30, 2004, 10:31:04 pm
ROFLMAO

 you humans, it always boils down to sex... (as for Anon I think this is the second mentioning of raped remains , is this true? perhaps it's a cry for help?) Kidding :lol:
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 30, 2004, 10:48:59 pm
Quote
Originally posted by IceFire
Shivans win because:

- Capable of living in zero-g, zero atmosphere vacum
- Built in beam weaponry
- Durable protective suit
- Relatively fast and rediculously strong
 


Xenos may win cause:

-Capable of living in zero-g, zero atmosphere vacuum
-Extremely fast and strong
-Venomous tail
-Highly Acidic blood (capable of spitting)
-Rock-hard Chitinous exoskeleton
-Razor claws
-Pneumatic Inner jaw

Liberator, I thought the theory was that they were an organic entity fused with cybernetic enhancements?
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Liberator on May 30, 2004, 11:41:13 pm
Jetmech, I've seen both and more bandied about, but in truth they are likely 99% machine if not all machine given the onboard weapondry energy requirements.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: karajorma on May 31, 2004, 03:53:30 am
We're all making an assumption based on the fact that the shivans were showing their best fighting abilities in Hallfight. From the way they toyed with the marines before killing them I'd say that it's quite possible that they weren't at all.

EDIT : Corrected a typo bob noticed.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Bobboau on May 31, 2004, 04:10:16 am
you mean 'weren't' right?
otherwise what you just said doesn't realy make sence.

I don't get why people keep bringing up the acid blood, that's only a problem after the Shivan wins
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 31, 2004, 12:46:32 pm
Because the Xeno can spit it.
And its not only a problem after the shivan wins, the xeno can survive with the entire lower portion of its body gone.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Knight Templar on May 31, 2004, 01:07:27 pm
So? Shivans have BEAMS!!![/i].

Beams>Acid
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 31, 2004, 01:18:45 pm
I fail to see a point, KT, that hasnt been made before. Yeah beams are powerful and a direct hit would blow a xeno to dust, but they can be dodged, Xenos are heat resistant (negating close misses, not direct hits), and they are still highly combat effective event with an arm or leg blown off.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Knight Templar on May 31, 2004, 01:25:58 pm
Shivan beams don't miss.

They also have those nice little blade dealies on their arms.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: an0n on May 31, 2004, 01:26:21 pm
When the **** did the Aliens ever spit acid?

In Ressurection the Queen had to have two beasties tear each other apart to get out enough blood to burn through the floor.

And the Shivans in Hallfight probably weren't even soliders. They'll've been pilots and/or engineers.

As for the 'heat resistant', they're not. They just have a much higher tollerance. Fire ****s them up.

Finally: The Shivan wouldn't go for an arm of a leg. It'd grab it by whatever was handy, then mash its chest and head into the floor with the entirely of it ton+ weight.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: aldo_14 on May 31, 2004, 01:33:38 pm
sigh...... you're taking this too far, methinks.

Think of it this way - there's a Shivan and a Xenomorph in the pub.  Which one would you fancy your chances most against?
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 31, 2004, 01:39:20 pm
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
When the **** did the Aliens ever spit acid?


As for the 'heat resistant', they're not. They just have a much higher tollerance. Fire ****s them up.

 


In Ressurection, One of the aliens spits acid while they're climbing a ladder (watch the movie again)

Molten lead is hot. If it survives a prolonged dip it molten lead, I consider it somewhat heat resistant. Fire ****s them up cos it sticks to em. Give a shivan a Flamethrower, and I'll put my money on the shivan.

KT: how do you know beams never miss?
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Knight Templar on May 31, 2004, 01:47:05 pm
Because Shivans have them. And Shivans 0wn j00.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: an0n on May 31, 2004, 01:48:15 pm
The abilities of the Ressurection Aliens cannot be considered demostrative of the abilities of all Xenos, as they're spliced with Ripley's DNA as well as that of the people they incubated in.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 31, 2004, 01:52:48 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Knight Templar
Because Shivans have them. And Shivans 0wn j00.


:lol:

anon: it also happens in alien 3

Point taken, though.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: an0n on May 31, 2004, 01:55:48 pm
The only instance I can recall of an Alien spitting is when (IIRC) it sprays the black guy in Ressurection.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 31, 2004, 02:32:17 pm
Wouldn't the shivan just blow itself and everything in the vicinity up? Like it did in Hallfight.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 31, 2004, 03:23:19 pm
In Alien 3, in that tunnel with the giant fan. The dude who owned the dog saw the runner in that little grate, thought it was his dog looked down, and got sprayed. The edges of the grate he was looking through were shown later melted by acid.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Knight Templar on May 31, 2004, 03:56:05 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80
Wouldn't the shivan just blow itself and everything in the vicinity up? Like it did in Hallfight.


That was a rocket/grenade/gun exploding.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: an0n on May 31, 2004, 04:30:56 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
In Alien 3, in that tunnel with the giant fan. The dude who owned the dog saw the runner in that little grate, thought it was his dog looked down, and got sprayed. The edges of the grate he was looking through were shown later melted by acid.
I don't remember that.

And before anyone whines: I'm not disputing that face-huggers can spit. They've done that a bunch of times.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 31, 2004, 04:35:32 pm
It was a fast scene, and is actually quite debatable as to what happened, but most people, given the evidence, think it was an acid spray.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: an0n on May 31, 2004, 04:56:52 pm
The thing where it's a long-shot down the tunnel towards the fan and the dude turns to the left to look into the hole?

I thought it reached out and grabbed him?

I'll have to check when I get enough cash for the Quadrilogy boxset.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 31, 2004, 08:04:20 pm
Okay, just rewatched the 3rd movie. In the scene, it does look like the xeno reached out and grabbed him, but then it shows a one second shot of him, with acid dripping off his face. Later, Clemens finds a deep melted area on the grates.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: an0n on May 31, 2004, 08:12:54 pm
It probably cut its arm to **** when it smashed through the grate.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on May 31, 2004, 08:29:23 pm
Their exoskeletons are rock hard, and considering the grate was was about 1-2 milimeters thick, it wouldn't be able to cut it really...
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: pyro-manic on June 01, 2004, 08:33:01 am
I'm confused as to the "rock-hard"-ness of the xenos' exoskeletons - bullets seemed to have no trouble getting through it in Aliens. And that's not high-velocity assault rifle bullets either, that's 9mm/10mm short rounds, which aren't too hot at piercing armour last time I checked... It's going to be no match for a beam cannon or a glowy blade thingy...

A shivan would maul a xeno, no contest. It's bigger, it has a gun, it's bulletproof, it's got five legs. :p
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: an0n on June 01, 2004, 01:17:25 pm
That's what I've been saying.

It'd be like putting a Gorilla against a Macac monkey with a knife.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 01, 2004, 02:14:41 pm
Quote
Originally posted by pyro-manic
I'm confused as to the "rock-hard"-ness of the xenos' exoskeletons - bullets seemed to have no trouble getting through it in Aliens. And that's not high-velocity assault rifle bullets either, that's 9mm/10mm short rounds, which aren't too hot at piercing armour last time I checked... It's going to be no match for a beam cannon or a glowy blade thingy...

A shivan would maul a xeno, no contest. It's bigger, it has a gun, it's bulletproof, it's got five legs. :p


3 legs, actually, unless their fighting in zero grav, and 3 legs is not to hot for balancing purposes in a fight.

As for the xeno's exoskeleton, bullets do have some trouble getting through (several scenes in which the bullets seem to just bounce off in a spray of sparks), and most of the aliens you actually see killed are done in via pulse rifle, smartgun, grenade, shotgun, or POINT-BLANK shots to the HEAD or FACE with a handgun.

Besides, the point I was makin was that smashing through a 1 mm thick grate wouldnt hurt them.

Quote
Originally posted by an0n
That's what I've been saying.

It'd be like putting a Gorilla against a Macac monkey with a knife.


More like a gorilla against a very angry baboon with a machette :p

As I stated before, shivan has a better chance to win, but against more than one, its chances aren't nearly so good.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: pyro-manic on June 01, 2004, 03:52:15 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.


3 legs, actually, unless their fighting in zero grav, and 3 legs is not to hot for balancing purposes in a fight.


Er, it's a lot better than two. And xenos only have 4 (or 2, by your logic).

Quote

As for the xeno's exoskeleton, bullets do have some trouble getting through (several scenes in which the bullets seem to just bounce off in a spray of sparks), and most of the aliens you actually see killed are done in via pulse rifle, smartgun, grenade, shotgun, or POINT-BLANK shots to the HEAD or FACE with a handgun.


Those "sparks" are the rounds exploding on impact - do any of the aliens hit not explode rather messily? And shotguns aren't exactly great at getting through armour, so they can't be that hard. :D

Quote

Besides, the point I was makin was that smashing through a 1 mm thick grate wouldnt hurt them.


Fair enough. But getting smacked very hard with a Glowy Blade Thingy™ would, I think. ;)

A Praetorian would have a chance, I think, because it's bigger, harder and still very fast, so it might get a decent hit on a Shivan before it got toasted/mashed/sat on, but a warrior/drone/runner would get it's ass handed to it, probably as a pile of ash...
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Flipside on June 01, 2004, 03:56:02 pm
However, a Queen versus a Shivan is another matter, at least until the beam weapon charges :)

Look at it this way, a Shivan can roll the top back on a fighter designed to take nuke-level missile impacts. The Xeno tends to stop for doors ;)
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Ghostavo on June 01, 2004, 04:36:19 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
against more than one, its chances aren't nearly so good.


Why do you keep repeating that same argument? It's freaking obvious... what purpose does it serve? It's not like the xenos are in greater numbers... :doubt:
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: DragonClaw on June 01, 2004, 04:41:48 pm
It's all about environment :P

If the Xeno can hide in a ceiling and wait for the shivan to pass under it, and jump it..... the shivan is @*%@d.

Just curious, do we really have any evidence that the shivan can survive in a non-zero-g environment?
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Flipside on June 01, 2004, 04:45:36 pm
Wasn't there something about Shivans boarding a Terran Vessel in Freespace 1, or maybe from the FS Bible, I'm sure I read it somewhere. And from the Bosch and other cutscenes, it appears that Terran ships do have artificial gravity :)
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Ghostavo on June 01, 2004, 04:46:52 pm
Hall fight is 0G? Since when? I don't see bodies floating around...
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: DragonClaw on June 01, 2004, 04:53:23 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ghostavo
Hall fight is 0G? Since when? I don't see bodies floating around...


Are you smoking crack?

It takes approximately 6 seconds for the shivan beam to charge, just timed it :p  Plenty of time for the Xeno to kick some ass.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Ghostavo on June 01, 2004, 04:58:25 pm
Sorry, wrong phrasing, I meant the actual fight... it is 0 grav but it doesn't feel like it... the shivans jumped?!? :confused:
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: DragonClaw on June 01, 2004, 05:04:42 pm
Yeah they jumped and caught themselves with their other legs... at one point it looks like gravity pulled one down, but when it jumped it pushed off the ceiling with its hind legs.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Knight Templar on June 01, 2004, 05:57:48 pm
I don't think Halfight is 0g. When one of the Shivans throws a marine against the wall, he falls down.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: an0n on June 01, 2004, 06:00:50 pm
Hallfight is extreme low-grav.

I think the only actual force is that being generated by the Marines boots.
Title: Grudge Match
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 01, 2004, 06:18:14 pm
Quote
Originally posted by pyro-manic


Er, it's a lot better than two. And xenos only have 4 (or 2, by your logic).  


Eh? My logic? What logic? As for having 2 legs, Xenos can go either or, bipedal or quadraped. They actually are more effective movement wise on all fours.

Quote
Originally posted by pyro-manic


Those "sparks" are the rounds exploding on impact - do any of the aliens hit not explode rather messily? And shotguns aren't exactly great at getting through armour, so they can't be that hard. :D
 


Yes, several. The rest are just pumped so full of bullets at such close range that they might as well have exploded:D As for the shotgun, that was only ever really used at close to medium range, which is more than enough to get it through (some) armor.


Quote
Originally posted by pyro-manic

Fair enough. But getting smacked very hard with a Glowy Blade Thingy™ would, I think. ;)


Getting smacked with a Glowy Blade Thingy would hurt just about anyone, I think :)


Quote
Originally posted by pyro-manic

A Praetorian would have a chance, I think, because it's bigger, harder and still very fast, so it might get a decent hit on a Shivan before it got toasted/mashed/sat on, but a warrior/drone/runner would get it's ass handed to it, probably as a pile of ash...


IMO, Praetorian, Queen, and the Itty Bitty Facehugger would have a better than average chance, even with the shivans beam cannon or glowy blade