Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: vyper on June 19, 2004, 01:07:40 pm
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http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=532387§ion=news
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Didn't you know? They're only doing it because the British MPs are helping the Palestinians get weapons out of Egypt. :doubt:
The more I hear about israel the more ****ed up it seems. :mad:
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It just gets worse and worse...
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I'm sure it was a mistake vyper, they were probably aiming at the kids running around them.
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I'd suggest the plan for Israel that I came up with in college a few weeks ago, but it'd likely get me banned...
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well played Israel, well played...
Pertrarch: as in, deport all the Palestinians, or as in deport all the Israelis?
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Share it on NW or summat.
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Glass the entire region.
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The entire mid east? That'd ensure our saftey, for a little while, yes...
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Personally, I'd advocate moving me, and a few million other people who where willing to worship me as a God, to the Moon then releasing all kinds of short-lived nasties on Earth. Ebola, small-pox, that kinda stuff.
Then I'd nuke the **** out of all the hermetically sealed bunkers enough to at least crack them at let the virii in.
A few years later, come back to Earth, make sure everything is safe, then have my followers spread across the land like a plague.
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Who gets to be your main, deranged, drugged up love slave?
Just curious. :nervous:
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Originally posted by an0n
Personally, I'd advocate moving me, and a few million other people who where willing to worship me as a God, to the Moon then releasing all kinds of short-lived nasties on Earth. Ebola, small-pox, that kinda stuff.
Then I'd nuke the **** out of all the hermetically sealed bunkers enough to at least crack them at let the virii in.
A few years later, come back to Earth, make sure everything is safe, then have my followers spread across the land like a plague.
[color=66ff00]I am awed by your vision mighty one. :D
[/color]
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Give the Palestinians their land back, and move isreal to Canada, we got a ton of territories they can have and im sure Canada wouldnt miss it.
I hear there are spots in russia left too, move the isrealites there.
Why move isrealis? Well the palestinians were their before the isreali's, unless we beleive the bible to be archealogical fact, then move the palestianians.
None want to move? Then declare war on both, and sanction them both until they can have a peace agreement made and abided by.
What bugs me, is the world is on neither side of this conflict, however, countries armies are willingly arming one side, causing the fight to escalate. Why not just not give them anything? Those fueling the fire should also be "looked" at, if you know what i mean.
To me the problem is very complex and there is no solution accept cutting them off from civilizations and forcing them to solve it themselves either by force, or by peace agreements.
The moment either become a threat to any other country, every country should smash them, and sanction them as they did to the axis in world war 2....it worked on the germans...
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Originally posted by Lonestar
Give the Palestinians their land back, and move isreal to Canada, we got a ton of territories they can have and im sure Canada wouldnt miss it.
None want to move? Then declare war on both, and sanction them both until they can have a peace agreement made and abided by.
Bloody good idea. Or, better still, get a load of yee-haw fundie Christians to go and settle around Bethlehem or somewhere, claiming it's their divine right to live there because it's where the Messiah was born, or some such similar bollocks. See how the Israelis like getting their country taken away from them...
What bugs me, is the world is on neither side of this conflict, however, countries armies are willingly arming one side, causing the fight to escalate. Why not just not give them anything? Those fueling the fire should also be "looked" at, if you know what i mean.
Ah, but then Lockheed, General Dynamics, Raytheon et al wouldn't make such obscenely large piles of money, so they'd be pissed and make Bush lose the next election. And he can't have that, now, can he?
To me the problem is very complex and there is no solution accept cutting them off from civilizations and forcing them to solve it themselves either by force, or by peace agreements.
That'd sort it out, but there'd be nothing but ash and bones left after a few weeks.
The moment either become a threat to any other country, every country should smash them, and sanction them as they did to the axis in world war 2....it worked on the germans...
Heheh, you'd think that'd be obvious, wouldn't you? Problem is, guess who's number one on everyone's hitlist of "countries that are screwing us over and making a big ****ing mess of everything at the moment"...
As for the shootings, I'm not surprised. The Israelis seem to shoot anything that moves at the moment....
An0n: sounds good. When do we leave? :D
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Well my initial idea was actually a giant glass dome and sucking the air out, but then I thought that was a bit Hitler-esque, so I decided against the vacuum.
The idea is under continual development, and now currently stands as a steel dome, which would seperate both sides from the rest of the world, who would lift it up every ten years or so to see if either a) they'd annihilated each other yet or b) they were willing to stop being wankers yet.
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I like the plan, 'cept it involves maintaining the dome...
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Sounds like it might work.
Problem is, I'm sure some of the Liberals around here would object to the endangerment of innocents. Too bad I'm one of them.
And yes, I do feel the situation over there is getting to the point of being ridiculous, on the same level as an old joke about Jews.
It's not even offensive or Anti-Semitic:
Question: Where's the safest place in the world to be a Jew?
Answer: Northern Ireland, the Christians are too busy killing each other off to care about the Jews.
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Hmmmmmmmm... didn't there used to be an old Law in Arabic culture that if two tribes could not settle their differences, the leaders would be locked in a room lined with weapons and they would not be fed or allowed to sleep until the issue was resolved, by talk or by battle? ;)
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Perhaps we should do that with Sharon and whoever is heading the rebels.
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Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB
Well my initial idea was actually a giant glass dome and sucking the air out, but then I thought that was a bit Hitler-esque, so I decided against the vacuum.
The idea is under continual development, and now currently stands as a steel dome, which would seperate both sides from the rest of the world, who would lift it up every ten years or so to see if either a) they'd annihilated each other yet or b) they were willing to stop being wankers yet.
What about a concrete dome? Treat the whole area like Chernobyl. Maybe you would get hot russian chicks on motorbikes reporting from the area. Or you could market the whole thing as a gigantic Mad Max style theme-park! Rent some kind of vehicle with some weapons, go for a ride in the buffer zone, real entertainment, no fake stuff!
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I like your thinking.
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Originally posted by Moonsword
Perhaps we should do that with Sharon and whoever is heading the rebels.
I don't think the Palestinians really have much of a leader of any sort at this point...
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I'm sure Sandwich must really appreciate all this; thinking up ways to destroy an entire people, his people...
When will you people learn, this ain't your business. It is tempting to say "they are incapable of resolving it themselves, so it falls to us", but really, interference in such affairs has a long history of failure, and only throws fuel on the fire.
Let them kill each other, love each other, tickle each other to death if thats what it takes, but I don't see how anyone has the authority to impose a "solution", particularly of the kind that is being discussed here.
Yes, most of you are kidding, but ir reflects the mentality that is present here and pretty much everywhere else, that Group A has the authority to be the globo-cops, serving as a parents to soolve disputes between querreling children. The US thinks they are that group, some people think the UN is that group, others think they are that group. Guys, tough ****, no such group exists, nor should it.
It is a bit pretenious to think that you know whats best for everyone else, eh?
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I think you'll find people are indulging in a bit of mindless fun, it's a favourite pastime on here if you hadn't noticed ;)
I don't think anyone genuinely wants to wall these people in, simply trying to make light of what is fast becoming a distressing situation for people who may not be part of the problem, but will sure be involved if the solution isn't peaceful, i.e. Everyone. but when the walls of political correctness are more constricting than the wall they just joked about, you know something is wrong ;)
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Originally posted by Moonsword
It's not even offensive or Anti-Semitic:
Question: Where's the safest place in the world to be a Jew?
Answer: Northern Ireland, the Christians are too busy killing each other off to care about the Jews.
Old joke over here, boy is walking down in alley in Belfast when he gets knocked down, looks up to see a gun pointed at his face. Hes asked "what are ye, cath or a prod? Guy thinks fast, knowing either answer could get him shot and says hes a Bosnian. Gunman says "I must be the luckiest ****ing Serb in the whole of Belfast"
Seriously though neither are really safe up there, there was a lot of co-operation between PLO and IRA in the past and I know of at least one IRA man who actually fought in the Leb for a palestinian group. Dont think the Israelis have done anything for the unionists but they've adopted them as their side anyways. Norths pretty racist anyways so anyone a bit tanned is likely to get a bit of flak up there anyways.
Originally posted by Rictor
It is a bit pretenious to think that you know whats best for everyone else, eh?
Coming from someone who posts a political topic every couple of minutes thats a bit hypocritical maybe?
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Originally posted by Rictor
It is a bit pretenious to think that you know whats best for everyone else, eh?
Not if you beleive in the power of Jesus.
...
:nod:
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Gank: ah, but you see, there is a difference between talk and action. Discussion is one thing, and in my opinion any sort of discussion on problematic issues can only be beneficial. But I would never support imposing a solution on a group on people unless they agreed to it.
If Isrealis/Palestinians want to kick the crap out of each other, thats fine. My concern is for those who live in the region, but are innocent of any actual crimes against the other side. Civilians, so to speak. In my opinion, they no more deserve punuishment of any sort than a Siberian or a German.
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
Didn't you know? They're only doing it because the British MPs are helping the Palestinians get weapons out of Egypt. :doubt:
The more I hear about israel the more ****ed up it seems. :mad:
http://www.humanityonhold.com/intifada.html
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Originally posted by Flipside
I think you'll find people are indulging in a bit of mindless fun, it's a favourite pastime on here if you hadn't noticed ;)
I don't think anyone genuinely wants to wall these people in
I was joking until they shot at elected British officials/British Subjects.
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Originally posted by Moonsword
Perhaps we should do that with Sharon and whoever is heading the rebels.
Ahhh...now there's the problem, isn't it? There's no one head man who's got control over all the Palestinians. And don't anybody say it's Arafat, because that's utter crap.
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Well, if the guy could get out of his headquarters without having to worry about missiles/submachine guns/sniper/bulldozers....
Just maybe he could lead the country where he was elected a lil' better, don't you think ? I don't endorse him, he was a terroristat first after all. But I still think Israel is worse. At least the palestinian killers aren't endorsed by their own governement...
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Originally posted by Genryu
I don't endorse him, he was a terroristat first after all. But I still think Israel is worse.
So were Sharon, Netanyahu and Begin to name a few.
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Incidentally, the webstie mentions that an Israeli PM (before he became PM) sanctioned the assassination attempt on a UN representative. Who would that be?
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Folke Bernadotte I would say, order came from Shamir iirc. Interesting question not posed by that website:
Which is the only nation in the world to elect a leader found guilty of war crimes by his own country:
Israel.
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Originally posted by Genryu
Well, if the guy could get out of his headquarters without having to worry about missiles/submachine guns/sniper/bulldozers....
Just maybe he could lead the country where he was elected a lil' better, don't you think ? I don't endorse him, he was a terroristat first after all. But I still think Israel is worse. At least the palestinian killers aren't endorsed by their own governement...
It doesn't matter where he is. The point is that the Palestinian people don't support him all that much. Some do, but not so many. The people don't have a leader who speaks for them.
Call me a hypocrite because our president doesn't necessarily represent everyone's ideas in this country, but Arafat has nothing to do with democracy and that's the main difference. When the Palestinians have a democratically-elected leader, then something will be able to be done. Until then, Arafat will just slow down the peace process.
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AFAIK, Arafat was democratically elected, which is why Israel hasn't yet offed him, there would be too much political fallout.
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Democratically elected does not mean that he actually is a democratic person...
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I think Arafat has the support (to some degree) of most of the Palestinian people. Israel easily had him within their grasp, several times in the past few years in fact. If they wanted him dead, he was a tank shell away from being so, but I think they figured it would cause more harm than good. Sure, the PA doesn't hold absolute power among the Palestinians, but I think its certainly one of the more powerful factions.
Democracy isn't the biggest issue I would imagine. When you're under occupation from a foreign power, and have been that way for years and years, the main priority I think would be kicking them out. Do that, and then afterwards you can worry about internal politics.
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Originally posted by Tiara
Democratically elected does not mean that he actually is a democratic person...
You only have to look at Bush to be aware of that fact :D .
Joking asides, as Rictor said, the fact he was elected means that he was chosen by the Palestinians to represents them.
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Or Hitler.
Hitler was almost democratically elected. If not for the killings and intimidation, it'd've been a perfectly legal election.
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Truth is, that he didn't even need to intimidate. He had the support of a large proportion of the population behind him.
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Whether the Palestinians like Arafat or not, Israel CAN'T kill him because it would make him one of the largest martyrs of all. Even people who didn't like Arafat before would see him as someone who defied the oppressors.
Furthermore, Arafat can't make peace. He just CAN'T. He's incapable of doing so. He had the chance, and the issue came down to Jerusalem. He was willing to make peace, but couldn't do so because other Arabs would not have accepted the terms that Arafat would have agreed to. He doesn't stand for what most Arabs do. The PA has a PM but he can't do anything because Arafat keeps him on such a tight leash.
The way I see it, nothing can be done until Arafat dies of his own accord.
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Israel wont kill him because hes corrupt as **** and they're quite happy to have him running the show. Yassin was the only real alternative to Arafat as a palestinian leader which is why Israel went after him. Hamas is a much better ran organisation, they basically runs the Gaza strip, looks after schools, hospitals etc, while the west bank is a shambles.
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Israel doesn't want a corrupt person running the show. Corruption keeps Palestinians living on the street which keeps them pissed off. They blame Israel and...BOOM!
Good logic, Gank. [sarcasm]You're right. Israel likes keeping Palestinian people poor and pissed off at them. Israel likes being attacked by terrorists. Yup.[/sarcasm]
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Your logic is arseways mate, you're suggesting Israel wants somebody competent in charge of people it views as the enemy? What planet are you on.
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Originally posted by Corsair
Israel doesn't want a corrupt person running the show. Corruption keeps Palestinians living on the street which keeps them pissed off. They blame Israel and...BOOM![/sarcasm]
Are you referring to someone corrupt on the Israeli side or the Palestinian side?
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Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB
I'd suggest the plan for Israel that I came up with in college a few weeks ago, but it'd likely get me banned...
You too? I have several, but not only for Israel.....
Originally posted by Rictor
I'm sure Sandwich must really appreciate all this; thinking up ways to destroy an entire people, his people...
When will you people learn, this ain't your business. It is tempting to say "they are incapable of resolving it themselves, so it falls to us", but really, interference in such affairs has a long history of failure, and only throws fuel on the fire.
Let them kill each other, love each other, tickle each other to death if thats what it takes, but I don't see how anyone has the authority to impose a "solution", particularly of the kind that is being discussed here.
Yes, most of you are kidding, but ir reflects the mentality that is present here and pretty much everywhere else, that Group A has the authority to be the globo-cops, serving as a parents to soolve disputes between querreling children. The US thinks they are that group, some people think the UN is that group, others think they are that group. Guys, tough ****, no such group exists, nor should it.
It is a bit pretenious to think that you know whats best for everyone else, eh?
Agreed!
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Originally posted by Gank
Your logic is arseways mate, you're suggesting Israel wants somebody competent in charge of people it views as the enemy? What planet are you on.
If the Palestinians have someone competent running their country, the Palestinian lifestyle might become a little more comfortable...and then guess what? They'll be happy...and happiness leads to this interesting concept called peace. It's when you don't kill people.
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well, assuming "competent" included "being able to keep Israel off their backs, despite having almost no power", which I admit would be quite a feat.
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Originally posted by Corsair
If the Palestinians have someone competent running their country, the Palestinian lifestyle might become a little more comfortable...and then guess what? They'll be happy...and happiness leads to this interesting concept called peace. It's when you don't kill people.
Yeah, because if they have Macdonalds and MTV they might forget about the Merkevas and Nagmachons tearing up their street. :rolleyes:
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Because of course, that's all the Israelis ever do. For the last freaking time, they are not the bloodthirsty mob you make them out to be.
I hate to say it, but I think that in order to have peace, the Palestinians have to make the first concession. They have to be the first ones to take one step back. Not a big step, mind, but still a step. Israel can't back down without being assured that Palestine will as well because its very survival is at stake. There is no Palestine at the moment, and therefore there is nothing for the Palestinian people to lose if they do what I'm suggesting.
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well, despite the way it may seem, things can be quite a bit worse for the Palestinians. I don't think Israel is risking its very existence. Thats a common arguement, especially among neo cons (so what, its a cliche, but its accurate so I'll use it). If you read some of their ideology, you'll see that even the tiniest consession is seen as risking the utter destruction of Israel and its inhabitants.
No, of course the Israelis are not a blood-thirsty mob. Though the Israeli government, especially the Likudniks, and the IDF do come quite a bit closer to that description. And neither are the Palestinians the fanatical terrorists that the Western media makes them out to be. The thing is, making the first step towards peace would be a meaningless gesture until both sides are ready to accept a peaceful resolution. And this means accepting a reasonable peace proposal, with conditions that can actually be accepted by the other side. Right now, it seems to me, and I may be wrong, that the Israeli people are not nearly as hungry for peace as the Palestinians. If you compare what a continued conflict means for the average Israeli and the average Palestinian, you'll see that the Israelis have less to gain and are therefor less inclined to make concession. Again, I should stress that I do not view the various Palestinian factions (Hamas, the PLO, the PA etc) as blameless.
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You can't blame the Palestinians for beeing pi****, now can you?
Their land beeing stolen, homes destroyed, children killed.
Helll, if that was happening to me, I'd be the first one to strap on some TNT and charge (alltough not on civilians, but then again, I might loose my mind, so who knows?)
Yes, those suicide-bombing terrorist tards are to be shot, one by one, but if you ask me, USA and Israel are the bigger bad guy here....
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I would expect to hear that around here, but one has a right to be a total bigot if they want to, I suppose.
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Originally posted by ionia23
I would expect to hear that around here, but one has a right to be a total bigot if they want to, I suppose.
Ah, yes, the light of wisdom shines from your arguments. Truly.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Tiara
Ah, yes, the light of wisdom shines from your arguments. Truly.
:rolleyes:
You seem to be under the impression I'm trying to win some kind of liberal-popularity contest. I give what I receive.
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Bull***t, I'm really tired of you. Please shutup and pretend this never happened before it gets nasty
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Originally posted by jdjtcagle
Bull***t, I'm really tired of you. Please shutup and pretend this never happened before it gets nasty
Case and point.:rolleyes:
1. Israel is not wrong for defending itself
2. Saddam Hussein's practices are not the fault of the United States
3. The 9/11 attacks were unjustified
4. Our foreign policy between 1947 and the Carter administration was completely whacked.
That's it, really.
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[q]I would expect to hear that around here, but one has a right to be a total bigot if they want to, I suppose.[/q]
What, that people would get pissed off if someone started shooting up their home, neighbours and kids?
You come from a country obsessed with home defence, I'd expect you to be a bit more understanding of the Palestinians situation.
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ah, I see it now. Its all so heavily biased. Liberals to the right of you, Liberals to the left of you. The liberal media and their lies. The liberal government and their pinko commie shenanigans. Hell, why stop there. Its that damn liberal weather, thats why its so hot here. And the liberal drivers who keep cutting me off. Not to mention the worst of the lot, the liberal education system. Whats a young man to do, with the odds stacked so highly against him...
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1. Defending itself does not include making life hell for hundreds of thousands of innocents Palestinians.
2. True, but the sanctions were not Saddam's practices. The minute the US barred humanitarian goods from entering Iraq, it took on a share of the responsibility for the dead and suffering.
3. Thats depends on who you ask. If 9/11 was unjustified, so was Vietnam, the Bay of Pigs, Iraq, Kosovo, Afhganistan, not to mention the numerous "covert" acts of agression. Can't have it both ways. If them hitting you is unjustified, then you hitting them is also.
4. Yeah, not nearly enough wars. As far as I can figure, every single president in recent memory has engaged in some sort of agressive action against a foreign power while in office. That quite an agressive nation, no?
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Originally posted by vyper
[q]I would expect to hear that around here, but one has a right to be a total bigot if they want to, I suppose.[/q]
What, that people would get pissed off if someone started shooting up their home, neighbours and kids?
You come from a country obsessed with home defence, I'd expect you to be a bit more understanding of the Palestinians situation.
I have a government obsessed with home defense. I leave my doors unlocked.
Of course I do. They're caught between a rock and a hard place because of a few extremists on BOTH sides. Is Israel the sole exclusive blame for that? No.
What sets me off is people around here have absolutely no issue with ripping the Israelis up because a stray bullet kills some innocent civilian on accident, but not a single one of you give a flying crap when a suicide bomber levels a nightclub in Tel Aviv in the name of Allah beyond saying "well, the Israelis had it coming, pity the collateral damage". I'm sorry, but that's whacked.
Who's at fault? The terrorists. What makes the terrorists do what they do? They're sick people. If it isn't one thing it's another. It's just a shame we haven't developed a bullet smart enough to stop them before they act.
I'll tell you, if I didn't think the building would be demolished by some idiot with a stupid agenda, I'd like to see American companies that are outsourcing to places like India and Malaysia start outsourcing to, say, Palestine. Give people a reason to live and they'll stop looking for excuses to die. Any major American corporation could easily offer these people wages that would exceed the 'bounty' offered to the families of suicide bombers.
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Originally posted by ionia23
1. Israel is not wrong for defending itself
2. Saddam Hussein's practices are not the fault of the United States
3. The 9/11 attacks were unjustified
4. Our foreign policy between 1947 and the Carter administration was completely whacked.
1. True. Every country is allowed to defend themselves. But inflicting punishment on the whole Palestinian population for the actions of a few is wrong.
2. No, but the US (and the UK for that matter) sold him chemical weapons (or at least the technology to make them) to use against Iran, which were also used on the Kurds. These are the ever-elusive weapons which were given as the reason for the conquest of Iraq last year.
3. Now I don't know where you get that from, but it's bollocks. Al-qaeda have actually said why they did it - as a result of the US's foreign policy, in particular their ongoing support of Israel. Was it a horrific act? Yes. Was it entirely unjustified? Not by a long way.
4. And it still is. US foreign policy is pretty much ideal, if the intention is to get everyone else to hate you.
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Originally posted by pyro-manic
3. Now I don't know where you get that from, but it's bollocks. Al-qaeda have actually said why they did it - as a result of the US's foreign policy, in particular their ongoing support of Israel. Was it a horrific act? Yes. Was it entirely unjustified? Not by a long way.
I could personally care less why Al-Qaeda did it, the fact is they did. had they kept it to the Pentagon and used a military aircraft, I could have lived with that, but noooo.
I've seen interviews with Bin Laden where he's asked if the West would do this, and this, and this, would he stop? He said "No." James Woods was right, the only way to stop a terrorist is to cut his head off. However, you might be able to stop one before they become one (see other posts on this).
There were 12 day care centers in the Trade Center. Nobody talks about that. You go right ahead and explain that it was justified.
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Originally posted by ionia23
What sets me off is people around here have absolutely no issue with ripping the Israelis up because a stray bullet kills some innocent civilian on accident, but not a single one of you give a flying crap when a suicide bomber levels a nightclub in Tel Aviv in the name of Allah beyond saying "well, the Israelis had it coming, pity the collateral damage". I'm sorry, but that's whacked.
Who's at fault? The terrorists. What makes the terrorists do what they do? They're sick people. If it isn't one thing it's another. It's just a shame we haven't developed a bullet smart enough to stop them before they act.
I'll tell you why that happens since you don't seem to have picked up on it.
Most of us think that the terrorists are sick bastards. I don't know anyone on this board with an ounce of sense who think that Israeli civilians have it coming when a terrorist blows up a nightclub or cafe.
However no one on this board is surprised by a sick bastard doing the sort of thing you'd expect from a sick bastard.
The government of Israel is a different matter. This is a democratically elected government committing attrocities and a democratically elected goverment is expected not to act like sick bastards simply because of the fact that if they do they should be replaced by the electorate.
In addition to this since Sharon was elected the people of Israel do bear a certain responsibility for electing him in the first place. They knew he was guilty of war crimes and yet they elected him anyway. Does that make it right that their discos and clubs get blown up, no. But it does mean that they are as guilty for putting him in power as the morons who voted for the Nazi party are for the whole crock of **** that followed afterwards.
Originally posted by ionia23
There were 12 day care centers in the Trade Center. Nobody talks about that. You go right ahead and explain that it was justified.
What a crap arguement.
As Rictor keeps pointing out how many children died because of American sanctions on humanitarian aid for Iraq? You want to explain why that was justified too?
Do I believe Bin Laden was justified. No. Do I believe you can hold up innocent children as an arguement. No. Not unless you let the other side do that too. Or do little brown lives count for less?
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ionia: as comforting as it may seem to build a solid wall between "us" and "them", the civilized people and the terrorists, anyone could become a suicide bomber under the right circumstances. I could; you could, anyone basically. If I lived in poverty and suffering for 30 years, under foreign occupation, forced to live with daily humiliatition, seeing my kids shot dead and my home demolished because of what some other person did, sure I'de be up for a little payback. If I saw no hope for breaking free from the oppression - and you can't reasonably claim that oppression is not whats going on the the occupied territories - then yeah, why not; at least this way (suicide bombing) I have some control over my live.
You can't claim that these people are all fanatics. They're ordinary people who have suffered more than you can imagine. I read a story a few months ago about how a woman, a mother of 2, a teachers - by all indications an educated and peaceful woman - strapped a bomb to herself and blew away a few Israelis.
No, the Palestinians are not blameless. If you bothered to read what I said before, you would know that I don't think that. But the two standards that matter, daily suffering and risk of death, are both higher for the Palestinians. For all this talk of the poor set upon Israelis, if you look at the statistics (provided by an Israeli source) you can see that more innocent Palestinians died since the start of the second Intifada than did Israelis. When it comes right down to it, the Palestinians have limited control over their own circumstances. The Israeli government has greater control over the Palestinians than they do over themselves, which leads to a master-slave relationship.
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Yeah but Rictor for all your arguements the Palestinians would get much further following Ghandi's example than Bin Laden's.
Sure if the situation is bad enough I'd be a suicide bomber too. But before that ever happened I'd explore every single peaceful option first. The palestinians have to take some blame for resorting to violence before even trying for a non-violent solution. Sure their life is **** but this is not the way out.
*Hmmm. Hope I didn't set too many CIA alarm bells ringing with that suicide bomber comment :) *
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Originally posted by ionia23I could personally care less why Al-Qaeda did it, the fact is they did. had they kept it to the Pentagon and used a military aircraft, I could have lived with that, but noooo.
I've seen interviews with Bin Laden where he's asked if the West would do this, and this, and this, would he stop? He said "No." James Woods was right, the only way to stop a terrorist is to cut his head off. However, you might be able to stop one before they become one (see other posts on this).
There were 12 day care centers in the Trade Center. Nobody talks about that. You go right ahead and explain that it was justified.
Very well - how many civilians died in that attack? Just under three thousand. How many civilians has the US killed in the last decade, through blockades, sanctions, and simply bombing the **** out of anyone they like? Even if you confine it to the Middle East, I can almost guarantee it's going to be at least ten times that many.
I'm not justifying it myself - I'm against war and violence entirely. I think that war is an abhorrent waste of life and resources, and I hope that the world will grow up a bit in the near future and stop being so selfish and petty. But when a country starts pissing all over the rest of the world to further it's own interests, and make it's corporate elite as rich as possible at the expense of hundreds of millions of people, then somebody is, at some point, going to say "**** this, I'm not going to be pissed on any more" and go out and get some revenge any way he can. That's all it was. Pure, simple revenge. Bin Laden is an evil man, yes, because he does not value human life, because he hates everything the "West" stands for, and he has twisted Islam to suit his purpose. But if it wasn't him who did it, somebody else would, sooner or later....
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Originally posted by karajorma
What a crap arguement.
As Rictor keeps pointing out how many children died because of American sanctions on humanitarian aid for Iraq? You want to explain why that was justified too?
Do I believe Bin Laden was justified. No. Do I believe you can hold up innocent children as an arguement. No. Not unless you let the other side do that too. Or do little brown lives count for less?
Rictor is also a...never mind it's totally not worth it.
The sanctions you're referring to were done by the UN, and were violated plenty of times by countries like France flying in humanitarian aid...which was of course earmarked by Hussein and his gang. Who's responsible for what happened to his people? Himself and himself alone. As a dictator, he had total control over getting the sanctions lifted. Obviously it was awful what happened to the Iraqi citizenry, but that is not the fault of the US though it seems to easy to place the blame there. The sanctions were absolutely justified, and it was the responsibility of Hussein to do the right thing for his people. he did not. Now he's out and even more cleaning up has to be done. When governments make stupid decisions, the people suffer always.
And yeah, you can hold up kids as an argument in any direction. And I do count the other side too. But there is a huge difference between an accident and a deliberate targeting.
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Originally posted by pyro-manic
Very well - how many civilians died in that attack? Just under three thousand. How many civilians has the US killed in the last decade, through blockades, sanctions, and simply bombing the **** out of anyone they like? Even if you confine it to the Middle East, I can almost guarantee it's going to be at least ten times that many.
I'm not justifying it myself - I'm against war and violence entirely. I think that war is an abhorrent waste of life and resources, and I hope that the world will grow up a bit in the near future and stop being so selfish and petty. But when a country starts pissing all over the rest of the world to further it's own interests, and make it's corporate elite as rich as possible at the expense of hundreds of millions of people, then somebody is, at some point, going to say "**** this, I'm not going to be pissed on any more" and go out and get some revenge any way he can. That's all it was. Pure, simple revenge. Bin Laden is an evil man, yes, because he does not value human life, because he hates everything the "West" stands for, and he has twisted Islam to suit his purpose. But if it wasn't him who did it, somebody else would, sooner or later....
Don't believe for a moment we merely 'bomb anyone we like'. We're not like that.
And I'm not blind to the fact that the last major terrorist attack in this country was committed by a white American who also happened to be a Christian and a Gulf War veteran...and had no conscience.
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Originally posted by ionia23
The sanctions you're referring to were done by the UN, and were violated plenty of times by countries like France flying in humanitarian aid...which was of course earmarked by Hussein and his gang. Who's responsible for what happened to his people? Himself and himself alone. As a dictator, he had total control over getting the sanctions lifted. Obviously it was awful what happened to the Iraqi citizenry, but that is not the fault of the US though it seems to easy to place the blame there. The sanctions were absolutely justified, and it was the responsibility of Hussein to do the right thing for his people. he did not. Now he's out and even more cleaning up has to be done. When governments make stupid decisions, the people suffer always.
You can shift the blame to the UN all you like but you know that it was the US who pushed for the sanctions in the first place.
And as for blaming Saddam. You're claiming that the UN/US is innocent of all the deaths that happened because the sanctions they initiated because Saddam was an evil crazy madman didn't have any effect because Saddam was an evil crazy madman :wtf:
The UN/US must have known that there was a very good chance that Saddam wouldn't cave in. Even if they didn't know at first when it became obvious that he wouldn't cave in they shouldn't have allowed the suffering to continue especially when everyone knew it was having bugger all of an effect. That was just a case of the UN not being willing to swallow their pride and say that it didn't work so let's try something else.
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Originally posted by ionia23
Don't believe for a moment we merely 'bomb anyone we like'. We're not like that.
And I'm not blind to the fact that the last major terrorist attack in this country was committed by a white American who also happened to be a Christian and a Gulf War veteran...and had no conscience.
McVeigh was a right-wing psycho. Much like Islamic extremists are. Same beliefs, just different religions.
And as for bombing, not like what? You mean the US government doesn't put huge pressure on other countries to get them to allow themselves to be raped of yet another resource, or force all their farmers out of business by selling them crops from the Mid-West at prices so low they can't possibly compete? Not like that? Not like overthrowing democratically elected governments because they don't kiss enough USA sphincter? Not like that?
Bugger. Sorry about this rant, but I can't stand the blind patriotism that seems to come out of America these days, in the face of the government's record for the past 20 years. Open your eyes, look at all the disgraceful things your government does, and take responsibility. The people elected them (or not, in this case, but that's another matter), so the people have to be responsible for what they do. If you don't like the image America has, then do something about it.
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Originally posted by karajorma
The UN/US must have known that there was a very good chance that Saddam wouldn't cave in. Even if they didn't know at first when it became obvious that he wouldn't cave in they shouldn't have allowed the suffering to continue especially when everyone knew it was having bugger all of an effect. That was just a case of the UN not being willing to swallow their pride and say that it didn't work so let's try something else.
Okay, assuming you're right on this. What would have been the alternative?
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Let in medical supplies? :rolleyes:
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That's a stupid idea, with them bleeding oil and all...
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Originally posted by pyro-manic
Bugger. Sorry about this rant, but I can't stand the blind patriotism that seems to come out of America these days, in the face of the government's record for the past 20 years. Open your eyes, look at all the disgraceful things your government does, and take responsibility. The people elected them (or not, in this case, but that's another matter), so the people have to be responsible for what they do. If you don't like the image America has, then do something about it.
Ahh, that's assuming I'm 'patriotic', which I'm not. But I do have enough guts to stand up for what I think is right and blaming the US for the world's problems isn't one of those things.
20 years, that would put us back in...1984. Lets see all the disgraceful things we've done:
Liberated Kuwait. You should go to Kuwait's homepage some time to read about what they really think of the allied forces.
Crushed Saddam Hussein's regime into dust (it's all guerilla warfare now)
The Berlin Wall
Removed the Taliban from power (we've a long way to go on that)
Won the Cold War
the Strategic Arms Limitation Treaties with Russia, buying us all some time from Armageddon
The Space Program
Very nearly brought about a lasting peace in Israel/Palestine...until Arafat flaked out at the last possible minute
Ya, we're truly awful. Everything we do is a disgrace. mmkay.
And your Shining Administration That Does No Wrong, what has it accomplished in the last 20 years?
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Originally posted by vyper
Let in medical supplies? :rolleyes:
Honor the terms of the sanctions?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Corsair
Because of course, that's all the Israelis ever do. For the last freaking time, they are not the bloodthirsty mob you make them out to be.
I hate to say it, but I think that in order to have peace, the Palestinians have to make the first concession. They have to be the first ones to take one step back. Not a big step, mind, but still a step. Israel can't back down without being assured that Palestine will as well because its very survival is at stake. There is no Palestine at the moment, and therefore there is nothing for the Palestinian people to lose if they do what I'm suggesting.
What the **** are you talking about, Israel is occuping Palestinian territory and conducting ethnic cleansing and the palestinians must make concessions. Israels fighting for survival yet its the palestinians who have been occupied for 40 years, the palestinians whose houses are being demolished daily to make room for jewish settlers, the palestinians who are being fenced into ghettos. You come out with statements like these and have the cheek to question my logic?
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Originally posted by ionia23
Ahh, that's assuming I'm 'patriotic', which I'm not. But I do have enough guts to stand up for what I think is right and blaming the US for the world's problems isn't one of those things.
20 years, that would put us back in...1984. Lets see all the disgraceful things we've done:
Liberated Kuwait. You should go to Kuwait's homepage some time to read about what they really think of the allied forces.
Crushed Saddam Hussein's regime into dust (it's all guerilla warfare now)
The Berlin Wall
Removed the Taliban from power (we've a long way to go on that)
Won the Cold War
the Strategic Arms Limitation Treaties with Russia, buying us all some time from Armageddon
The Space Program
Very nearly brought about a lasting peace in Israel/Palestine...until Arafat flaked out at the last possible minute
Ya, we're truly awful. Everything we do is a disgrace. mmkay.
And your Shining Administration That Does No Wrong, what has it accomplished in the last 20 years?
Let's take a look at your claims:
1. Liberated Kuwait. You're right there.
2. Crushed Saddam's regime. And you claim that guerilla warfare is better? Not to mention the fact we supported his regime for years.
3. Berlin Wall. That would be a result of the fall of the Soviet Union, not our actions.
4. Removed Taliban from power. They would never have come into power if we hadn't started ignoring Afghanistan as soon as the Soviets pulled out.
5. Won the Cold War. There were these things called Perestroika and Glasnost. Study them.
6. SALT. I'll give you that, even though realistically there wasn't much chance of nuclear war by that point.
7. Space program. It's kind of declined over the last 20 years, as the shuttle is actually a very primitive piece of hardware.
8. Israel/Palestine. I'm not even going into the argument there, as I consider both sides to be doing the most foolish thing possible.
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Originally posted by ionia23
I would expect to hear that around here, but one has a right to be a total bigot if they want to, I suppose.
You should know, you exercise it regularly.
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Originally posted by Gank
What the **** are you talking about, Israel is occuping Palestinian territory and conducting ethnic cleansing and the palestinians must make concessions. Israels fighting for survival yet its the palestinians who have been occupied for 40 years, the palestinians whose houses are being demolished daily to make room for jewish settlers, the palestinians who are being fenced into ghettos. You come out with statements like these and have the cheek to question my logic?
If the Israelis were conducting 'ethnic cleansing' they would have finished by now. Their houses are not being 'demolished daily' to make room for settlers, it's current Israeli policy. If some member of your family decides to go blow up a restaurant in Jerusalem for Allah, your home gets flattened. Pretty simple, and totally f*cked up.
Corsair's right. The only way the Palestinians are going to win is to pull a Ghandi.
It ain't the fault of the people, though the various martyr brigades could go a long way by getting rid of the payoffs for the families of suicide bombers. I'm all for seeing the disputed territory handed back and Jerusalem being made a World City if that's what it will take. But the suicide bombings have simply got to stop.
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Originally posted by ionia23
Ahh, that's assuming I'm 'patriotic', which I'm not. But I do have enough guts to stand up for what I think is right and blaming the US for the world's problems isn't one of those things.
20 years, that would put us back in...1984. Lets see all the disgraceful things we've done:
Liberated Kuwait. You should go to Kuwait's homepage some time to read about what they really think of the allied forces.
Crushed Saddam Hussein's regime into dust (it's all guerilla warfare now)
The Berlin Wall
Removed the Taliban from power (we've a long way to go on that)
Won the Cold War
the Strategic Arms Limitation Treaties with Russia, buying us all some time from Armageddon
The Space Program
Very nearly brought about a lasting peace in Israel/Palestine...until Arafat flaked out at the last possible minute
Ya, we're truly awful. Everything we do is a disgrace. mmkay.
And your Shining Administration That Does No Wrong, what has it accomplished in the last 20 years?
1. Liberated Kuwait, so that it can be ruled by an unelected and unaccountable monarch. Yay!
2. True, you did get rid of Saddam. But as long as we're back to 1984, why not also mention how you armed him against Iran.
3. If you really think that the fall of the Berlin Wall is to be attributed solely to the US's efforts, well who am I to contradict you. Other people might no think that...
4. Yeah, you removed them from power. Except they are not even close to being defeated. Huge portions of Afghanistan are still under tribal control, and it would appear they are gaining territory instead of loosing it. And as justified as it may have seemed at the time, the US and Pakstan helped arm several groups that would later become/help the Taliban...
5. Alright, I'll give you that much. Except that Bush has recently pulled out of some pretty major non-proliferation treaties, and is actively developing mini nukes.
6. While the Space Program is an achievement to be sure, I don't see how it benefited anyone. Its kind of like the pyramids in Egypt, cool to have but not realy all that useful, especialy to the 95% of the world's population living outside of America.
7. Yeah, its al the Palestinians fault. Sharon/Netanyahu/Barak/Peres tried their best, they really did....
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Originally posted by ionia23
20 years, that would put us back in...1984. Lets see all the disgraceful things we've done:
Liberated Kuwait. You should go to Kuwait's homepage some time to read about what they really think of the allied forces.
Crushed Saddam Hussein's regime into dust (it's all guerilla warfare now)
The Berlin Wall
Removed the Taliban from power (we've a long way to go on that)
Won the Cold War
the Strategic Arms Limitation Treaties with Russia, buying us all some time from Armageddon
The Space Program
Very nearly brought about a lasting peace in Israel/Palestine...until Arafat flaked out at the last possible minute
1)I'll give you that, although I need to remind of certain weapons sold to the invaders in that point! :rolleyes:
4)I wonder who gave them the resources so they could stay in power...
5)Neutral point
6)Although you stop other countries from aquiring NBQ weapons while you hold the largest stock (by far) of all.
7)Good...
8)And then after that you completly f***** in a certain action the UN was going to take (recently, it was posted in the forums IIRC) with your VETO and continue to let Israel f*** palestinian civilians.
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Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
Let's take a look at your claims:
1. Liberated Kuwait. You're right there.
2. Crushed Saddam's regime. And you claim that guerilla warfare is better? Not to mention the fact we supported his regime for years.
Better? No. The overall situation? better than it was, but with a long, long way to go. The sooner we're out the happier I'll be
3. Berlin Wall. That would be a result of the fall of the Soviet Union, not our actions.
And Regan's encouragement. We get to share in that.
4. Removed Taliban from power. They would never have come into power if we hadn't started ignoring Afghanistan as soon as the Soviets pulled out.
Funny that people critique American interference until it might benefit them. I wish we'd known.
5. Won the Cold War. There were these things called Perestroika and Glasnost. Study them.
I have, or I wouldn't have said it in the first place. maybe a better phrase would be that we all won.
6. SALT. I'll give you that, even though realistically there wasn't much chance of nuclear war by that point.
With respect, you're a fool if you believe that. Remember Andropov? Between Regan the Actor and Andropov The Human Computer it's a wonder any of us survived.
7. Space program. It's kind of declined over the last 20 years, as the shuttle is actually a very primitive piece of hardware.
It is. There's so much more to be done. This is where I want our resources invested.
8. Israel/Palestine. I'm not even going into the argument there, as I consider both sides to be doing the most foolish thing possible.
Agreed.
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Originally posted by ionia23
Ahh, that's assuming I'm 'patriotic', which I'm not. But I do have enough guts to stand up for what I think is right and blaming the US for the world's problems isn't one of those things.
20 years, that would put us back in...1984. Lets see all the disgraceful things we've done:
Liberated Kuwait. You should go to Kuwait's homepage some time to read about what they really think of the allied forces.
Crushed Saddam Hussein's regime into dust (it's all guerilla warfare now)
The Berlin Wall
Removed the Taliban from power (we've a long way to go on that)
Won the Cold War
the Strategic Arms Limitation Treaties with Russia, buying us all some time from Armageddon
The Space Program
Very nearly brought about a lasting peace in Israel/Palestine...until Arafat flaked out at the last possible minute
Ya, we're truly awful. Everything we do is a disgrace. mmkay.
And your Shining Administration That Does No Wrong, what has it accomplished in the last 20 years?
Liberated Kuwait - yeah, but after pretty much saying to Hussein that it was OK for him to invade in the first place.
Crushed the old Iraqi regime - fair enough.
The Berlin Wall - what about it? It was Germans who tore it down, not Americans.
Removed the Taliban - fair enough, though Afghanistan is still a mess.
Won the Cold War - eh? Nobody won the cold war. The USSR spent itself out keeping pace with the US in the arms race, and Reagan spent stupid amounts of money on worthless weapons and research, pushing the country trillions into the red.
SALT - those were jointly signed, because neither side could afford to develop defense systems that could cope with multiple-warhead missiles. See previous point.
The space programme - what about it? How has it significantly benefitted the majority of humanity?
Very nearly brought about a lasting peace in Israel/Palestine - fair enough, but nobody seems very interested in reviving Oslo...
I never said that everything the US does is a disgrace, just that a lot of it is. Raping the Middle east and Venezuela for oil, pulling out of the Kyoto treaty - thereby crippling it, the aforementioned crop exports keeping millions in poverty, the Christianisation of the US penal system, the potential anti-gay marriage amendment, drilling for oil in Alaskan nature reserves, the fact that the US generates over 24% of the world's carbon emissions, spending more money on it's military than the rest of the world combined - money that could feed and educate everyone on the planet, etc. That's the kind of stuff I find disgraceful.
As for my, uh, "shining administration" as you put it, they're a bunch of idiots, as were the previous lot. I didn't vote for them, nor will I ever. I regularly petition and protest against their actions, and I'm not impressed with them at all. The main opposition are even worse. They're going the way of the American political parties - puppets for big business.
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Btw lads, guess whose special forces went in and took out the SCUD launchers in the first Gulf War? (and guess who didn't) :D
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Hmm... Guessing from your location, it would most likely be the British special forces.
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Originally posted by vyper
Btw lads, guess whose special forces went in and took out the SCUD launchers in the first Gulf War? (and guess who didn't) :D
(http://1stvideo.com/snes/AirStrikePatrol.jpg)
That's right, play the game, *****. Good ol' Yankees and the A-10 Warthog.
Can I get a "w00t w00t!"?
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So, bottom line so far from the various views I've read
1. The US isn't all bad. They've made some great accomplishments.
2. It sure to f*** isn't that good either on the foreign policy side and has made some digusting decisions.
3. It's administration(s) seem to have a real problem with accountability
Look, Dubya is not going to be re-elected. Don't be fooled for a moment. he's running at a 30% approval rating right now. Clinton's was higher while he was being impeached for crying out loud. Barring my own conspiracy theories about announcing the 'capture' of one Osama Bin Laden prior to election day, the Bush administration is finished. Hopefully we'll get a more wise leader next time around, probably a Democrat.
The joke goes: How come Democrats stay in power for eight years? That's how long it takes to clear up four years of Republican control.
Don't worry about the 'gay' thing. Change doesn't come overnight, but we're getting there. Dubya is from a long line of old people with old ideas about what's right and wrong, the last line of a dying breed. Some people simply believe that homosexuality is a social poison and there is nothing you can do to convince them otherwise, you simply have to wait for them to die off. In time, the same marital benefits awarded heterosexual couples will pass at a federal level to homosexuals. Give it time.
And for the people who've commented about the space program not benefiting humanity? You have got to be kidding me. That's such a retarded statement it doesn't even have to be addressed in detail.
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Originally posted by vyper
Btw lads, guess whose special forces went in and took out the SCUD launchers in the first Gulf War? (and guess who didn't) :D
No kidding. That comes with being f*cking awesome.
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Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
Hmm... Guessing from your location, it would most likely be the British special forces.
Indeed it was, it was the SAS. If we ignore the fictional version of events in Bravo Two Zero, the majority of SAS operations were successful and saved anyone else from having to go in, and also stopped Israel sending in it's own forces to deal with the SCUDS (hence avoiding an escalation in the surrounding region). (Delta Force went in the day before the war ended unluckily for them)
I just thought I'd share that since we're blowing national trumpets here just now.
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Originally posted by ionia23
If the Israelis were conducting 'ethnic cleansing' they would have finished by now. Their houses are not being 'demolished daily' to make room for settlers, it's current Israeli policy. If some member of your family decides to go blow up a restaurant in Jerusalem for Allah, your home gets flattened. Pretty simple, and totally f*cked up.
Ethnic cleansing:
the violent removal by one ethnic group of other ethnic groups from the population of a particular area: used esp. of the activities of Serbs against Croats and Muslims in the former Yugoslavia
http://www.wordreference.com/definition/ethnic+cleansing.htm
Israel evicts palestinians and demolishs their houses to make way for settlements, its not limited as a punishment for suicide bombers though thats all you'll here about on Fox.
http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/Policy_of_Destruction.asp
http://www.arij.org/paleye/monthley/May-04/index.htm[
http://www.arij.org/paleye/monthley/
Originally posted by ionia23
It ain't the fault of the people, though the various martyr brigades could go a long way by getting rid of the payoffs for the families of suicide bombers. I'm all for seeing the disputed territory handed back and Jerusalem being made a World City if that's what it will take. But the suicide bombings have simply got to stop.
You're talking like suicide bombing is the cause of all the problems, its not. Israel has been occuping Gaza and the West Bank since 1967, the first bombing in Israel took place in 1993, 26 years later. Sure they must stop, but the root cause of the problem must be addressed as well.
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Originally posted by vyper
Indeed it was, it was the SAS. If we ignore the fictional version of events in Bravo Two Zero, the majority of SAS operations were successful and saved anyone else from having to go in, and also stopped Israel sending in it's own forces to deal with the SCUDS (hence avoiding an escalation in the surrounding region). (Delta Force went in the day before the war ended unluckily for them)
I just thought I'd share that since we're blowing national trumpets here just now.
The Brits deserve a little trumpet blowing. Indeed.
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Originally posted by Gank
You're talking like suicide bombing is the cause of all the problems, its not. Israel has been occuping Gaza and the West Bank since 1967, the first bombing in Israel took place in 1993, 26 years later. Sure they must stop, but the root cause of the problem must be addressed as well.
The ethnic cleansing issue doesn't even need to be addressed. It's inflammatory at best, pure bull**** at worst.
Tell me, honestly. If Israel were to hand over Jerusalem and withdraw it's territorial claims back to the border you propose, not to mention relocating all Israeli citizens living in the current occupied territories, do you really believe the bombings would stop?
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Given a few months, yes.
edit: on second thought, I'm not so sure. I really couldn't say, since almost everything I know of the Israel/Palestine issue comes from the media who I have reason to doubt, so....
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No, because Palestine would demand compensations for decades of opression, and Israel would answer with the suicide bombers which Palestine didn't control and the whole thing would blow out of proportion...
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There's never going to be a lasting peace there, is there....
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2012!!! :p
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Correct... unless...
1)Someone decides to nuke BOTH sides... but then whoever does that will be at war with someone who will charge them with crimes against humanity
2)Israel nukes palestine, which would make the US and Israel go to war with the rest of the known universe.
3)Palestine nukes Israel (yeah right...) which would make the US really really pissed and nuke over whatever is left of Palestine.
4)I can't really think of anything more right now, although I know there are far more things that "could" happen, such as an0n's plan!! I hope you don't take this seriously...
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Originally posted by ionia23
The ethnic cleansing issue doesn't even need to be addressed. It's inflammatory at best, pure bull**** at worst.
You have a problem with english? Read the definition, then read the reports on Israels colonisation and explain why it doesnt fit. What Israel is doing in the west bank and gaza strip is ethnic cleansing, whether you want to address it or not.
Originally posted by ionia23
Tell me, honestly. If Israel were to hand over Jerusalem and withdraw it's territorial claims back to the border you propose, not to mention relocating all Israeli citizens living in the current occupied territories, do you really believe the bombings would stop?
Yassin and Hamas offered a 30 year truce along with Islamic Jihad in return for this, Arafat and the PLO had already agreed to do this in the Oslo agreements. Israel killed Yassin and Arafat is a prisioner in his compound. Tell me honestly, do you think Israel has any intention of withdrawing fully from the occupied territories?
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whatever guys, you really have no clue. No can you possibly predict when/if/how the end to the conflict will come. Tell me, in 1970, did it look like the Cold War would ever finish without one side nuking the other? Of course there will be peace, its just a matter of when and how many people die in the meantime.
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Parts of Ireland were colonised 400 years ago, theres still fighting today.
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Thats mainly because we mismanaged the uprising in Ireland and ppl started lobbing mortars at our PM. Besides that, Ireland really should be at peace by now.
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Tell that to the twats up the north, and sure it was only major anyways.
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
Correct... unless...
2)Israel nukes palestine, which would make the US and Israel go to war with the rest of the known universe.
3)Palestine nukes Israel (yeah right...) which would make the US really really pissed and nuke over whatever is left of Palestine.
For the most part, Palestine = Israel, as far as location goes. The israelis took over palestinian land - meither side can really nuke the other.
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[Q]and sure it was only major anyways.[/Q]
Fair point.
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Originally posted by Gank
What the **** are you talking about, Israel is occuping Palestinian territory and conducting ethnic cleansing and the palestinians must make concessions. Israels fighting for survival yet its the palestinians who have been occupied for 40 years, the palestinians whose houses are being demolished daily to make room for jewish settlers, the palestinians who are being fenced into ghettos. You come out with statements like these and have the cheek to question my logic?
So...Israel=Nazi Germany?
Now there's a brilliant comparison. I've heard it before, from Arab friends of mine living in the West Bank. It's a highly intelligent, very well-informed, completely open-minded comparison. :rolleyes:
The IDF, for the most part, does not roll through Rafah or Ramallah or any other Palestinian city and run tanks through houses purely for ****s and giggles. There's almost always a reason. Sure, you may not think it's a good reason, but it's not usually senseless violence. It's not purely to scare the crap out of Palestinians and make their lives a living hell.
Settlements, you say? Sharon wants to disband a lot of the settlements. He, and most of Israel, is willing to give up many, if not all, of the settlements in exchange for peace.
Originally posted by ionia23
Barring my own conspiracy theories about announcing the 'capture' of one Osama Bin Laden prior to election day, the Bush administration is finished.
I guess I'm not the only one who's seeing that one coming then? People where I live think I'm a cynical bastard for predicting that...then again, some of them were invited to the Presidential Inaugural Ball in January, 2001.
Originally posted by Gank
You're talking like suicide bombing is the cause of all the problems, its not. Israel has been occuping Gaza and the West Bank since 1967, the first bombing in Israel took place in 1993, 26 years later. Sure they must stop, but the root cause of the problem must be addressed as well.
The first bombing took place in '93? That's crap. What about the First Intifada? And anyway, even if what you're saying is correct, that's because the Palestinians were being supported by the other Arab nations until Syria, Egypt, Jordan, et. al. realized that Israel would keep kicking the **** out of them. And that Israel had the A-bomb and would use it if national survival came into question.
Originally posted by ionia23
Corsair's right. The only way the Palestinians are going to win is to pull a Ghandi.
I'm going to say this in very large, capital letters, just so that everyone understands this.
NOBODY IS GOING TO WIN THIS CONFLICT.
When people talk about winning and losing then compromise doesn't occur. There will only be peace when both sides make some concessions to each other. In effect, they'll both "lose" but in reality they'll both "win" because people will stop dying. I stand by what I said before though. The Palestinians must make the first step if they want peace.
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(double post)
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Man you sound like the teachers who refuse to let kids play dodgeball because there is a winner and a loser.
I agree with the palestinians pulling a Ghandi thing. The only way we (the USA) can still support the Israelies is because the palestinians are using terrorist tactics. [best british accent] It's just not civilized [/best british accent] The minute they say... hey we'll just not hit back... the Israelies are screwed. They will be forced to compromise just as so many powers have been.
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:wtf: Teachers around my parts usually didn't let children play dodgeball because they'd get hurt.
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so that would mean...no capture the flag, crack the whip, suicide, wallball, smear the queer (which I'm sure has been renamed), dodgeball, doubledodgeball, tackle football, red rover...
What's that leave? Freakin' Chutes n' Ladders? CANDYLAND?
cripes...a couple of skinned knees and it's Lawsuit Time. f*** this place....
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Capture the Flag: The object of CTF isn't to hurt the other person...
Crack the whip: :wtf:
Suicide: :wtf: Sure as hell wouldn't get into public schools with that name.
Wallball: Not sure what this is either.
Smear the Queer: Probably. I don't remember what it is at any rate.
Doubledogeball: :wtf: :wtf:
Red Rover: Again, object isn't to hurt each other.
Football being the exception... because... uh... it's an institution.... yeah, that's it.
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:lol:
They don't let you play dodgeball? Because you'd get hurt?
:lol:
*passes out*
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
Capture the Flag: The object of CTF isn't to hurt the other person...
Crack the whip: :wtf: - A bunch of kids join hands in a long line. They all start running. The idea is to get the other end to swing around like a whip and fling other kids off. Last kid standing wins. Lots of scraped knees and the occasional concussion, but a hell of a lot of fun.
Suicide: :wtf: Sure as hell wouldn't get into public schools with that name. A group of kids throw a racketball at a wall, someone has to catch it If you catch but drop the ball, you have to run and touch the wall before someone else tags you with the racketball. If you make it, you get the ball. If they miss, they're the target. If you get hit, it hurts like hell and you're out.
Wallball: Not sure what this is either. Same as Suicide but played with a much larger ball.
Smear the Queer: Probably. I don't remember what it is at any rate. One kid has a ball. He can toss it to anyone he wants, but while he has the ball, everyone else tries to tackle him. Sort of like rugby with no point whatsoever.
Doubledogeball: :wtf: :wtf: A bunch of players stand in the middle of, say, a basketball court or whatever, with players lined up on either side, each side with 1 ball. They try to hit people in the middle. If you get hit, you're 'out'. Outed players join the lines on either side of the field. After awhile, you add more balls. Up to six. The poor kid at the end has to dodge six balls being through by a whole lot of people. :)
Red Rover: Again, object isn't to hurt each other. Oh you can, you can. I've been clotheslined more than a few times. Plus, I was a pretty big kid. I had no issues barreling over someone to get through.
Football being the exception... because... uh... it's an institution.... yeah, that's it.
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Originally posted by Corsair
So...Israel=Nazi Germany?
Now there's a brilliant comparison. I've heard it before, from Arab friends of mine living in the West Bank. It's a highly intelligent, very well-informed, completely open-minded comparison. :rolleyes:
Who the **** mentioned Nazis? :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Corsair
The IDF, for the most part, does not roll through Rafah or Ramallah or any other Palestinian city and run tanks through houses purely for ****s and giggles. There's almost always a reason. Sure, you may not think it's a good reason, but it's not usually senseless violence. It's not purely to scare the crap out of Palestinians and make their lives a living hell.
But thats exactly what it does. And their reasons are security, security for the settlements they've built on palestinian land.
Originally posted by Corsair
Settlements, you say? Sharon wants to disband a lot of the settlements. He, and most of Israel, is willing to give up many, if not all, of the settlements in exchange for peace.
No they're not, His withdrawal plan from a few settlements in Gaza was voted down by his party. And if you follow the links above, you'll see they're still stealing palestinian land right at this very minute.
Originally posted by Corsair
The first bombing took place in '93? That's crap.
www.google.com, why dont you check things out before you open your mouth. Here let me do it for you:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/mfaarchive/2000_2009/2002/7/Suicide%20Terror-%20Its%20use%20and%20rationalization%20-%20July
Originally posted by Corsair
What about the First Intifada?
There were no suicide bombs in Israel during the first intifada, is this hard for you to understand?
Originally posted by Corsair
And anyway, even if what you're saying is correct, that's because the Palestinians were being supported by the other Arab nations until Syria, Egypt, Jordan, et. al. realized that Israel would keep kicking the **** out of them. And that Israel had the A-bomb and would use it if national survival came into question.
Riiight :rolleyes: It amazes me how the same people who are quick to point out Israel has won every war against the arabs can shout how Israel is fighting for survival. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Corsair
When people talk about winning and losing then compromise doesn't occur. There will only be peace when both sides make some concessions to each other. In effect, they'll both "lose" but in reality they'll both "win" because people will stop dying. I stand by what I said before though. The Palestinians must make the first step if they want peace.
Lets get this straight, the Israelis are occuping palestinian land, dispossing the people and colonising it, and its the palestinians who must make concessions? Thats not going to happen. In 1993, the palestinians recognised Israels right to exist, 11 years later they're still under occupation and the colonising is continuing, why the **** should they make any concessions?
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Originally posted by Gank
Lets get this straight, the Israelis are occuping palestinian land, dispossing the people and colonising it, and its the palestinians who must make concessions? Thats not going to happen. In 1993, the palestinians recognised Israels right to exist, 11 years later they're still under occupation and the colonising is continuing, why the **** should they make any concessions?
They'll have to. Jerusalem. IMHO, so will Israel. Jerusalem.
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They already made that concession but it fell apart because the Israelis wanted control of the Al-Aqsa Mosque. Cant say I really blame the Palestinians for not wanting to leave it in Israeli hands given the number of times its been attacked by jewish fanatics wanting to clear the way for their third temple.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
:wtf: Teachers around my parts usually didn't let children play dodgeball because they'd get hurt.
If you get hurt in dodgeball... that's saying something.
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Just to set things straight... I don't see neither Israel or USA as evil countries... that would simply be stupid..
I see their current regime as being total tards (and in some ways, a PART of the population)..
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As far as agresive countries go:
My country has a 1300 year long histroy and we NEVER attacked another country...NEVER... We were allways too busy defending ourselves (eight centuries of turkish invasions had thier toll...lot's a large portion of land..but kept them away from west Europe with minimal or no help...)
It's something to be damn proud of...
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And about that gay thing....
I see homosexuality as either:
A) a sickness, in which case it should be cured
OR
B) Consious decision, which makes things worse...
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Why should you even really care? In my opinion, if it doesn't affect you, why should you care about anyone else's lifestlye? It's their life. Shouldn't affect you at all.
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I give up. It's impossible to make a point around here, especially when you're dealing with...
yeah. Not gonna go there. Forget it.
Just one thing for Grey Wolf. Why do I care?
First of all, I know a ****load of people on both sides of that conflict. They deal with this crap every single day of their lives. I know kids who are afraid to ride the bus because they think they might get blown up. I know a kid who makes sure to sit right next to the bus driver every time he gets on the bus because he believes that that's where he's got the best chance of surviving an explosion. I know kids who can't leave their houses because of IDF curfews. I know kids who've lost their homes, lost their property, have parents who've lost jobs, who can't get to work, and who've had to pick up and move to Jordan. I'd say I've got an interest.
So, Gank. You think I don't understand what's going on there? I know damn well more than you do. I've heard the stories first-hand. I've done everything short of lived it myself.
Oh, and one more reason why I care. I'm Jewish. When all else fails, Israel will be a place that will welcome me in and give me citizenship. If, God forbid, the 1930s and '40s happen all over again, I know that I've got a country that won't give a flying ****. I know that I've got somewhere to go. See, I've got a home that won't discriminate against me.
Jews do need a homeland, despite what people say. Israel may be a bit "racist" or discriminatory or whatever, but that's because it was founded with a reason in mind. It wasn't founded so that 75 years later the Muslims would outnumber the Jews and take control. It was founded so that, for the first time in well over 2000 years, Jewish people everywhere would have somewhere to go in a time of trouble.
I don't know. Maybe nobody's ever made jokes about your religion, asked if your dad was an accountant, rolled a quarter along the floor to your feet while you were up in front of the whole school making a speech, or done something else stupid. Maybe they have. If you've had that experience where a part of your identity is insulted, then you know the feeling that I'm talking about. Maybe not. But if you haven't then don't start with me.
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You know, as I read the first part I gained a bit of respect for you, then you go and blow it with your poor little me ****e. You're ****ing kidding right, you think you have some sort of ****ing right to go over and take the palestinians homeland because you're being discriminated against in your own? How the **** can you justify kicking a people off where they've lived for generations with being bullied in school? ****ing hell.
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There were Jews there as well, you know. Before 1948, before the 1920s even. Nobody would have been kicked off their land if the Arab states hadn't declared war on Israel in 1948.
For a long while, Muslims and Jews were able to live together in peace. It's happened before and it'll happen again.
Let me reiterate. It is important for the State of Israel to exist. It can exist in a different form, however. Like I said, I know both sides of the story here. Don't go thinking I'm rabidly pro-Israel. I'm in fact opposed to many of the things that the Israeli government does. I feel for my Palestinian brothers as much as I do my Israeli brothers. Don't go thinking this is all about me. There's a place for everyone there.
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Oh for ****s sake. I am so damned pissed off with members of minority groups who are so ****ing proud to be members of the oppressed minority. Wake up. People are so **** scared of offending any minority groups these days that you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want. "Oh - what if the 1930s and 40s happen again?" Yeah - right. Do you have any comprehension whatsoever about how much the world has changed since then? You wanna know where the most jew hate in the world is? The middle east - unsurprisingly, the only place where there's a solid justification for it. In the western world, anti semitism is all but eliminated. Sure, there're a few fanatics, neo nazis and other whack jobs, but I'd be willing to bet that there's probably a (proportionately) equal number of jews who'd be quite happy to see the non jewish world wiped out. Beyond them, everyone pretty much gets along. In short - Nobody gives a **** that you're jewish.
"Oh, but people make jokes about me". Boo ****ing hoo. Do you honestly believe you're the only one that's happened to? You tell me you've never made (or laughed at) a joke where The irish are stupid, the scots are tight arsed, the kiwis shag sheep, or some other country/religion/racial group gets bagged. I know a crapload of aboriginal jokes, and I think they're pretty funny. Does that make me a rascist? I'm going to give you some of the best advice you're going to get in a long time.
You are not that special. Learn to laugh at yourself. Try living in the real world for awhile - maybe you'll even like it.
Twit.
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Originally posted by Corsair
Just one thing for Grey Wolf. Why do I care?
Corsair, I wasn't talking to you. My comment was aimed at Trashman's comment on homosexuality.
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Oh.
Well...
I give up. It's impossible to make a point around here, especially when you're dealing with...
yeah. Not gonna go there. Forget it.
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To anyone who thinks this forum is full of bigots, complete morons, and otherwise politicallly-fuelled idiots, spend a week at the PCGamer forum.
You'll see that we actually do quite well here at HLP.
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Well said Gray Wolf!!!
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Originally posted by Corsair
I give up. It's impossible to make a point around here, especially when you're dealing with...
yeah. Not gonna go there. Forget it.
Go on, say it, you know you want to.
Originally posted by Corsair
See, I've got a home that won't discriminate against me.
Jews do need a homeland, despite what people say.
Originally posted by Corsair
Israel may be a bit "racist" or discriminatory or whatever, but that's because it was founded with a reason in mind.
You dont have a point.
http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html
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I am quite disapointed in Israel for their treatment of Palestinian civilians. Terrorists who live in their homes, eat their food and are palestinian themselves doesnt mean all of them are terrorists. Those people need a homeland and Israel needs to quit gambling with these guys.
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Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.
I am quite disapointed in Israel for their treatment of Palestinian civilians. Terrorists who live in their homes, eat their food and are palestinian themselves doesnt mean all of them are terrorists. Those people need a homeland and Israel needs to quit gambling with these guys.
And I never disagreed with that...
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People agree with me! Sweet!
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Even a broken watch is correct twice a day :lol:
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:lol:
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:doubt:
Shut the hell up...
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Lighten up... :)
Your taking stuff WAY too hard if that offended you :p
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Exactly. I was just pointing out that you can't be too happy that people agreed with you when you state the obvious :)
That said there are plenty of people unable to see the obvious.
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So true....
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If anyone needs to know, however, I dont take anything as a joke anymore... besides, I'm the most hated political speaker on this board, it HAS to be a good thing if people agree with me. Hell, I'm the most hated PERSON on this board... :doubt:
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No your not, people should not look at you as a bad person. For they are people too and there acting so immature about you that they wont give you a chance to be heard. You can help by not having so many tempure outburst and try not to diss or flame anybody on the boards. In other words, don't become what they are showing by flaming you. Plus, Kara just made a joke, don't take it personally.
In fact this needs to be said to the entire boards.
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I think Charimatic or whatever the name of that newb that came here thinking this comunity was dead and tried to start an uprise takes that title from you. I've never heard of him ever since... :shaking:
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Nicely put jdjtcagle. Tin Can my comment was meant as nothing more than good fashioned ribbing.
I tend to avoid flaming whenever possible and it's rare that I'll actually do it without provocation so relax a little.
Everyone is not out to get you. If you feel you are I suggest you look up some early posts by FreeTerran as an example of how someone can undergo a trial by fire by making mistakes early on and then end up as a valued member of the community.
If you act like everyone hates you it won't make anyone respect you. The way to get respect is to earn it.
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Originally posted by karajorma
If you act like everyone hates you it won't make anyone respect you. The way to get respect is to earn it.
Or kill everyone who does not respect you. Whichever is more practical really.
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Originally posted by 01010
Or kill everyone who does not respect you. Whichever is more practical really.
Yeah but that could result in you losing the respect of those who did respect you earlier, resulting in you killing everyone and still not having respect cause there's no one left :D
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Let's just say that reacting to sarcasm with anything other than the :p symbol is like turning on a light in a moth farm ;)
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Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.
I am quite disapointed in Israel for their treatment of Palestinian civilians. Terrorists who live in their homes, eat their food and are palestinian themselves doesnt mean all of them are terrorists. Those people need a homeland and Israel needs to quit gambling with these guys.
Exactly. Basically, what people want is peace and self-determination, though not necesarilly in that order. Give it to them, and they'll leave you alone. Don't, and they won't.
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See this is the problem with the middle east - I started this thread because people should be worried that my duly elected representatives to parliament are being ****ING SHOT AT! :D
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really? I would have thought you'de be cheering in the street. Its quite an ingenious way to get rid of politicians - just send them to Israel for some "peace talks" and the rest takes care of itself.
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I prefer the democratic process, it still works on occassion.
Far more ruthless than natural selection. ;)
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I friggin love that game! And I make maps for it!
You need to play on the [On|E] Lerky Jerky server. Best server in the world. :D
*Ejects president*
*Insert n00b president*
n00b: this doesnt look so hard...
Liberals: OMG DROP US STUFF COMM!
Conservatives: We need to take that res node... cmon team!
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Well that was odd.
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That is how Natural Selection works. He was refering to how it would be much easier if you coud just VOTE your president out of office.
Natural Selection is full of either players who follow orders, whine for guns, or try and run the game for you. Working with me now? Vyper knows what I am talking about...
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I think Vyper was refering to Darwinian natural selection rather than the computer game :)
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I can categorically say I have not got one ****ing clue what he's on about. :lol: