Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rictor on June 20, 2004, 02:12:37 pm
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This made my day.
Originally posted by Bill O'Reilly
O'REILLY: Because look ... when 2 percent of the population feels that you're doing them a favor, just forget it, you're not going to win. You're not going to win. And I don't have any respect by and large for the Iraqi people at all. I have no respect for them. I think that they're a prehistoric group that is -- yeah, there's excuses.
Sure, they're terrorized, they've never known freedom, all of that. There's excuses. I understand. But I don't have to respect them because you know when you have Americans dying trying to you know institute some kind of democracy there, and 2 percent of the people appreciate it, you know, it's time to -- time to wise up.
And this teaches us a big lesson, that we cannot intervene in the Muslim world ever again. What we can do is bomb the living daylights out of them, just like we did in the Balkans. Just as we did in the Balkans. Bomb the living daylights out of them. But no more ground troops, no more hearts and minds, ain't going to work.
[...]
They're just people who are primitive.
Well, can't argue with that...
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And the spin stopped there... I suppose?
:lol:
Glass... it's what an0n's been suggesting for some time now. :nod:
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Hurrah for the mighty and wise United States, and hurrah for their lapdogs in England.
(remember kids.. 9 years, thats what I give us...)
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Going by the Mayan calendar, as well? Wee! December 24th, 2012... fear that day!
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i just don't know what some of my fellow citizens are expecting.
of course the Iraqis are going to resent us. i've heard a lot of comparisons to post-WWII Japan lately, but they're just not the same. Japan fought a full, balls out war with us. the Iraqis haven't done anything wrong. they've been ruled by a tyrannical dictator and once he was toppled, the brave new day they awaken to is to be occupied by US troops. can anyone really blame them for being more than just a little pissed off?
no one left over there wants Saddam back. i doubt even the rebel fighters do. they just want us out. at this point, we can't leave of course. the wolves would just swoop in and eat that nation alive. but we should take on a more passive role. just withdraw to a few bases, let the nation grow on its own and serve as a protector. get the **** out of the cities.
imo, it's a good cause and i think something needed to be done. but in the long run, i'm not sure going into a full out war was the best decision. you can't make someone change. you can't make a nation change. people have to fight their own battles. we should have taken out the leadership and let the people wage their own revolution.
"Did I solicit thee, from darkness to promote me?"
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No good deed goes unpunished.
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Abu Ghraib was so nice of ur guys as well...
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bad things happen on both sides. it's a ****ing war. **** happens.
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I'm sure the iraqi kids who died during sanctions completely agree with you...
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That's former president Saddam's fault, not ours.
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Who put Saddam into power? oh damn... there goes your argument...
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really? yeah, those medicinal supplies could have really wreaked some havok if they had been allowed to enter Iraq. its a good thing too, you now have 500,000 potential terrorists less to deal with...
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Saddam put Saddam into power. There goes YOURS.
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yeah, Saddam put Saddam into power, ansd 25 million innocents suffered. I'm thinking of a word, its starts with "co" and ends with "llective punishment"...
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In reality, it starts with knock off blaming the US for everyone else's problems. It's tiresome and ****ing old.
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yes, the sanctions that the US imposed, the 13 years of constant bombing, surely they are someone elses problem.
In the real world, when you hit someone, you are responsible for it. Not Pete or Bob, but you. And before you bring up the argument "well he invaded Kuwait", a country very close to Iraq, I won't say who, did that same thing, occupied a foreign country for a number of years, and never even got so much as a frown in their direction.
As I said, the sanctions included such things as medicine and humanitarian supplies. Items which could in no way be used for a military purpose were prohibited from entering Iraq. First, you blow up their infrastructure, lets say water treatement for example, and then you do not allow them to build it back up. But of course, everyone knows, those water purification plants were really missle silos, right?
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Yadda yadda. I forgot I'm making the mistake of discussion this with a guy who pops champagne corks every time another chap gets beheaded in the name of Allah, who holds America accountable for every world upset in the last 300 years. I'll remember not to waste my time in the future.
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way to deflect that one. whenever someone brings up some unsettling facts, you just yell "oh, you hate America and blame them for everythng thats ever gone wrong in the history of humanity, so what else is new". See, this way, you never have to actually, whats the word, explain. No, none of that tedious stuff. the US could nuke Jamaica tommorow, and you would still bring up the same old smokescreen.
whats worse is that, obviously, a large and influential chunk of the US media behaves in the same fashion. Misdirection, thats the name of the game. Don't allow yourself to be drawn into an arguement involving facts or historical data, that way lies defeat.
Its like those people who accuse anyone who is reometly critical of Israel's policies an anti-Semite. But, ofcourse, the Jews have been persecuted throughout history. America, however, has always been on the other side of that stick.
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ionia23, yes I was wrong, must have been thinking of something else. And no America has not been responsible for all the bad things in the last 300 years, but you have to admite that since WW2 things have gone completely **** and because of America's decision to act as if it was the "world's police" has done lots of things it should be ashamed of. Other countries might have done something "similar" before, but they act very diferently now (Germany in WW2 for example).
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Saddam came to power because a dictator was necessary to keep the three original Iraqi nations together. if you're looking for someone to blame, a nation that was dumb enough to even try stitching Iraq together as a single nation just for reasons of greed, i suggest you start your search on the other side of the atlantic.
Originally posted by Rictor
Its like those people who accuse anyone who is reometly critical of Israel's policies an anti-Semite. But, ofcourse, the Jews have been persecuted throughout history...
here, i agree with you. our alignment with Israel is getting ****ing ridiculous. personally, i don't feel that Palestine should have ever been chosen as a homeland. and if the US even wants to think about peace in the middle east, we need to seriously consider changing sides.
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Well, regardless of why and how Iraq was created, I don't see what the Iraqi people themselves have done to deserve a decade of sanctions and bombing. Keep in mind, Saddam != Iraq, not even he was in power.
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no, no i agree completely. and that's the problem i have with this open war approach to the problem. it's not just that the iraqi people see themselves as being punished, but they ARE being punished. they didn't do anything to deserve this occupation. they didn't do anything to deserve having the fight brought to their doorstep.
if the US wanted a regime change, fine. i can weigh the good and the bad, and i would agree that having a regime change in Iraq at this stage of history is probably a good idea. but the regime change is over. Saddam is gone. we need to end this urban warfare ****ing now. leave troops there to protect Iraq while it's reforming itself, sure. but end the occupation.
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Ric ur wasting ur time, he doesn't WANT to hear it. I felt it necessary to prod the matter slightly but, meh...
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Originally posted by ionia23
In reality, it starts with knock off blaming the US for everyone else's problems. It's tiresome and ****ing old.
well, you DID put your nose into everyone's business during the cold war.....consider this payback :P
seriously though; I have no problem with the US myself....just NIMBY.
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I have a problem with them 'cos they're not us. :lol:
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Originally posted by Rictor
In the real world, when you hit someone, you are responsible for it. Not Pete or Bob, but you.
So err...something like this?
(http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/912/nq040514.gif)
:D:D
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Originally posted by PeachE
here, i agree with you. our alignment with Israel is getting ****ing ridiculous. personally, i don't feel that Palestine should have ever been chosen as a homeland. and if the US even wants to think about peace in the middle east, we need to seriously consider changing sides.
Two points here, first as far as the zionists were concerned there was no other choice, Palestine had been given to them by God and it was tough **** on the people who happened to live there. Uganda and Madagascar were both proposed as alternative countrys iirc but both turned down. Secondly, US will not stop supporting Israel unconditionally because the US is run by christian fundies, who think that any concessions to Israels enemys is giving in to Satan.
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Originally posted by Gank
Two points here, first as far as the zionists were concerned there was no other choice, Palestine had been given to them by God and it was tough **** on the people who happened to live there. Uganda and Madagascar were both proposed as alternative countrys iirc but both turned down. Secondly, US will not stop supporting Israel unconditionally because the US is run by christian fundies, who think that any concessions to Israels enemys is giving in to Satan.
that's all true. iirc, Herzl even presented the Uganda scheme, though it was really a tactical decision. i understand that they saw that there was no other choice and that the land was given to them by god. but imo, that's just too bad. to my knowledge, god is not a real estate dealer.
and i also understand the US will not stop supporting Israel. but it's not just the religious right. true, the Conservative Christians are tied too closely to the area to give it up to the Arabs. but the left wing is also tied to israel because of its devotion to minorities and its ties to the jewish lobby.
i'm not saying it's going to happen. i understand it won't. not this century. it just should.
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And maybe someone decided the Jews needed some backing, as no one else could be bothered.
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so "no one else could be bothered" is a legitimate reason for backing them? and forget backing Sharon. if the US wanted to do something good for the mideast, they would have shot him the second he took power.
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Considering the fact we (the British) carved up the land to give them a country post ww2, I wouldn't get all "we're (US) the ones helping the jews".
Besides, they don't need any1's backing. They're doing a fine job of killing innocent civilians all by themselves.
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Originally posted by PeachE
so "no one else could be bothered" is a legitimate reason for backing them? and forget backing Sharon. if the US wanted to do something good for the mideast, they would have shot him the second he took power.
What a great idea. Hey, here's an even better one. How about we cease all backing of Israel, militarily or otherwise? Just leave them to their own devices and let the chips fall where they may. I'd give them about a year before a unified attack annihiliates the whole lot of them. Nip that 'Jew' problem in the bud and make you all happy, plus it'd save a hell of a lot of money on new ovens.
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Originally posted by ionia23
What a great idea. Hey, here's an even better one. How about we cease all backing of Israel, militarily or otherwise? Just leave them to their own devices and let the chips fall where they may. I'd give them about a year before a unified attack annihiliates the whole lot of them. Nip that 'Jew' problem in the bud and make you all happy, plus it'd save a hell of a lot of money on new ovens.
Explain this then:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_Suez_War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_Suez_War)
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Six_Day_War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Six_Day_War)[/URL]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_War_of_Attrition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_War_of_Attrition)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Lebanon_War
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Originally posted by Mr. Vega
Explain this then:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isreal#Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isreal#Wars)
This is a Wikipedia entry on various wars in Israel.
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Isreali victory, Isreali victory, Isreali victory, Isreali victory
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Originally posted by Mr. Vega
Notice who won these wars.
Notice how much things have expanded since then. They're surrounded and outnumbered.
Please excuse the extreme hostile sarcasm of my earlier post. I just get tired of people bagging on Israel with impunity and completely ignoring everything that is done to them in the first place. At this point, neither side seems to know how to win for good.
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Originally posted by ionia23
Nip that 'Jew' problem in the bud and make you all happy, plus it'd save a hell of a lot of money on new ovens.
right, i don't support israel and hate sharon, so i must be a anti--semite, and a nazi at that :rolleyes: un****ingbelievable
Originally posted by ionia23
What a great idea. Hey, here's an even better one. How about we cease all backing of Israel, militarily or otherwise? Just leave them to their own devices and let the chips fall where they may. I'd give them about a year before a unified attack annihiliates the whole lot of them.
1948, 1956, 1967, 1970, 1973
though american involvement is suspected by many Arabs in 1967. i haven't read enough on the subject to make up my mind.
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Originally posted by ionia23
Notice how much things have expanded since then. They're surrounded and outnumbered.
:eek2: you're right. they weren't surrounded or outnumbered in any of those wars... :wtf:
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Originally posted by ionia23
Notice how much things have expanded since then. They're surrounded and outnumbered.
And armed with nukes and a belief that they can get away with anything because the US protects them :nod:
Now that's not to say the US would approve the use of nukes - hell, even Britain pretty much needs US permission to operate missile subs and ****. But lets face it, Israel has clearly ignored the 'rules' of war, such as don't massacre refugee camps in full sight of the world press then sing about what big men you are for doing so.
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[q]What a great idea. Hey, here's an even better one. How about we cease all backing of Israel, militarily or otherwise? Just leave them to their own devices and let the chips fall where they may. I'd give them about a year before a unified attack annihiliates the whole lot of them. Nip that 'Jew' problem in the bud and make you all happy, plus it'd save a hell of a lot of money on new ovens.[/q]
You know just because we don't like the Israelis killing innocent civvys doesn't make us all Aryan Nationalists...
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yeah, all those neo Nazi groups I belong to would be mighty pissed off if they knew I was a Jew. Better keep it under wraps so that the smokescreen can remain intact.
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Air power barely worked in the Balkans, i severly doubt Milosovich would have stopped had it not been for the deployment of a large contingent of KFOR troops on his border. That said Serbia is massively different to Iraq down to the fact that the people in Serbia could (and did) rise up and change things for one.
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As much as I would like to believe that it was nothing but the will of the Serbian people that toppled Milosevic, there are strong indications that the CIA backed the whole thing, which wouldn't surprise me in the least.
As it happens, those KFOR troops that are so valiantly supposed to be defending against ethinc cleansing blablablabla, are standing idly by while it happens, in the oppoisite direction of course. They're doing nothing at all, even when they themselves have been fired on and killed by KLA members.
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Originally posted by Raa Tor'h
Going by the Mayan calendar, as well? Wee! December 24th, 2012... fear that day!
Anyone remeber this, it also says that 2012 is end of the world... :p
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,22870.0.htmlor this...
http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/code7.htm
OH and my favorite
http://www.exodus2006.com/codes2.htm
:lol:
I don't believe in them but I find them interesting...
The tribulation time will be between 2005 and 2012 when 4,000,000,000 people will die.
2005 - False Arab/ Israeli peace treaty signed.
2006 - New Temple in Israel. Arab/Asia alliance formed.
2008 - Temple desecrated and 2 prophets killed in Jerusalem.
2010 - 3rd World War. H bombs used. Biological warfare causes the 'boils' pestilence. The asteroid falls in 3 pieces - on California, Utah and western Nevada. California sinks and floods. The Earth's crust slips relative to the rotation axis giving a pole shift of 5 degrees.
2011 - 3 asteroids hit Russia causing a 10° pole shift.
2012 - 3 asteroids hit China causing another 10° pole shift. Japan and the Philippines are lost underwater.
Codes have been found suggesting that after 2010 no children will be born alive until 2045. The last child born will be a reincarnation of Adam who will be born to a community of people, numbering 144,000, who will have collected together from all over the world. These people will be reincarnated souls of Moses original followers and they will keep things together for 40 years until recovery starts in 2045.
There is also an undated prediction of the impact of the 'Wormwood' asteroid into the Arabian Gulf.
It says that the Phobos, Mars moon, will be the asteroid that hits us...
PH34r!!!
:p
Last edit I promise:
http://www.exodus2006.com/1pyramid.htm
this site has something to do with the pyramids and really enteresting, take a look.
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Israel needs backing? Since when? They have one of the most high tech militaries in the world and also one of the most powerful, and they need backing? :eek:
Israel being surrounded thing is stupid, it's like Russia deciding to say that because it has so many countries near it, it would need help defending itself.
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Ghostavo: ever wonder why the Israeli military is so powerful? Thats what decades of military aid from Uncle Sam will get you. Practically ever piece of military hardware owned by Israel is US designed and manufactured. Militarily, they might hold out. But politically? Forget it, the UN is breathing down their necks as it is, only America's seat on the Secuirty Council is holding them back...
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Er... Rictor, while that may be true, they have designed one of the most famous weapons of all... Uzi.
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politics can eat my ass
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ionia, almost everything that is done is Israel is on account of Israel's own actions. So what if they're surrounded by Arab countries? Remeber, the founders of Israel chose that spot to build a new nation on. Or where they expecting every to just quietly move along and ignore the land theft? If we're going for "we lived there millenia ago", how about we use a more recent example. Would you give the Natives their land back, which would include all or a part of America? Its was their land not 500 years ago, and they were only driven off it at the point of a gun. So, how about we start deporting the population of the Eastern states right away, after all, justice must be done.
So stop the bull**** about how Israel is hated for no reason at all. They are occupying Palestinian terrirotry (post 1948 I mean, Gaza and the West Bank), they are commiting war crimes, not to mention those bordering on crimes aganst humanity, against the civilian population there. They invaded and occupied Lebanon, a soverign nation. They carry out illegal military operation against Syria. They are training Kurdish forces to fight against Iran and Syria. They have commited a long list of crimes against most of their neighbors. In short, Israel is not blameless. I'm sure it would be very much easier to pretend this is nothing but good old fashioned anti-Semetism, but thats simply not the case.
Whenever some utters a single word against the specific policies pursued by Israel, its Nazi this and that. So, they get to act with impunity, something which almost no other nation on Earth is affdorded.
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Yup, not to mention the Desert Eagle and Galili (well, "designed"). But as far as I know, Israel's attempt to create their own assult rifle, the Tavor, were somewhat of a failure. Sandwhich may know more about this. The general point I was trying to make is that the vast majority of the Israeli military (minus the people) is payed for by US taxpayers and in most cases, also manufactured by US military corporations.
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Well, at this this is more clear. Now I know where everyone stands.
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Originally posted by vyper
Considering the fact we (the British) carved up the land to give them a country post ww2, I wouldn't get all "we're (US) the ones helping the jews".
Besides, they don't need any1's backing. They're doing a fine job of killing innocent civilians all by themselves.
Erm.... I wouldn't boast with that if I were you...
Originally posted by MrCarrot
Air power barely worked in the Balkans, i severly doubt Milosovich would have stopped had it not been for the deployment of a large contingent of KFOR troops on his border. That said Serbia is massively different to Iraq down to the fact that the people in Serbia could (and did) rise up and change things for one.
Looks like it's only temporary....
By all I hear they are slowly getting their Great Serbia tendencies again.... I do hope I'm wrong...
RICTOR I AGREE WITH YOU 100%
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The British were effectively forced out of their peace keeping role between the Palis and Jews thanks to Jewish terrorism.
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Speaking of All Things Rebellious, they just beheaded that hostage from South Korea. I'm sure that will make a number of people around here thrilled. Score one for the Great Freedom Fighters.
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Wanker
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Originally posted by Gank
Wanker
asshole
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listen buddy, if you can't participate in grown up conversations, please do't try. As long as you live in the "if you don't support us 1000%, then you must support them 1000%" world, these little political debates are going to be very hard to have.
yes, its a tragedy, about the Korean hostage. Unlike certain others, he didn't deserve what he got. I certainly don't support the killing (or taking) of hostages, and I would venture to guess that no one here does. But you can't very well claim that the people who did this are any different than Pvt. So-and-so who dropped cluster bombs on residential neighborhoods.
and now I will follow vyper's suggestion and stop trying, its just not worth it.
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Trashman: depends on who wins the election. If Nikolic wins...well, ****. Tadic is like Kerry, his only merit is that he's not Nikolic. Either way, the Serbian people lose, but I guess they're used to that after what the past decade has brought....
personally, I can't fault the Great Serbia crap, its basically pure nationalism, just like every other country in the world has. At this point, no one has enough power to put that into action, so its not really relevant. It seems to me that if the Serbian people don't accept the commonly held view that they're murderers and the crap of the world, then they're somehow seen as ultra-nationalist. All people need pride in their country and so forth, and if you choose to call that Great Serbia, fine.
with that said, I do hope Tadic wins. He's the lesser of two evils at least, and at this point that about the best you can hope for..
edit: my mom actually knew Tadic back in university. She says he's a beaurocratic little ass-kisser who worked his way up the ladder on account of his daddy being someone important.
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Originally posted by Rictor
personally, I can't fault the Great Serbia crap, its basically pure nationalism, just like every other country in the world has. At this point, no one has enough power to put that into action, so its not really relevant. It seems to me that if the Serbian people don't accept the commonly held view that they're murderers and the crap of the world, then they're somehow seen as ultra-nationalist. All people need pride in their country and so forth, and if you choose to call that Great Serbia, fine.
The level of your hypocrisy is astounding.
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Originally posted by ionia23
Speaking of All Things Rebellious, they just beheaded that hostage from South Korea. I'm sure that will make a number of people around here thrilled. Score one for the Great Freedom Fighters.
What I want to know is why the allies aren't doing a better job of protecting foreigners.
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elaborate.
I'm not supportive of nationalism per se, I just think that everyone should be entitled to it equally. Serbian nationalism is no different than the Croatian, American, British or Mongolian variety. And yet, "Great Serbia" has become a phenomenon because some clever journalist coined the term to reason away every shortcoming on the part of the Serbian people. Sort of like "fanatical Islam" "the Communist menace" and "European anti-Semetism". And from that comes the impression that people walk around the streets of Belgrade, randomly shooting at non Serbs, pounding their chests and praising Milosevic for promting some sort of Balkan style manifest destiny, which is bull.
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Originally posted by Rictor
Trashman: depends on who wins the election. If Nikolic wins...well, ****. Tadic is like Kerry, his only merit is that he's not Nikolic. Either way, the Serbian people lose, but I guess they're used to that after what the past decade has brought....
personally, I can't fault the Great Serbia crap, its basically pure nationalism, just like every other country in the world has. At this point, no one has enough power to put that into action, so its not really relevant. It seems to me that if the Serbian people don't accept the commonly held view that they're murderers and the crap of the world, then they're somehow seen as ultra-nationalist. All people need pride in their country and so forth, and if you choose to call that Great Serbia, fine.
with that said, I do hope Tadic wins. He's the lesser of two evils at least, and at this point that about the best you can hope for..
edit: my mom actually knew Tadic back in university. She says he's a beaurocratic little ass-kisser who worked his way up the ladder on account of his daddy being someone important.
Rictor, I have nothing against Serbs...really.. Alltough I know a lot of Croats who have, and I can't blame them.
Actually, Serbs and Croats have one thing in common - they both have a history of making the worst political decisions in histoy!!!
Now, I have nothing against Serbian nationalists, but Serbia and Great Serbia are not the same. As V. Karadzic once wrote "Wherever there's a serbian grave, that's serbian soil!"...
And I'm not a fan of nationalism of any kind....
I'm still worried that you're goning to get this the wrong way, but I'm too tired to get into long explanations right now....