Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kazan on June 21, 2004, 02:38:11 pm
-
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/06/21/171255&mode=thread&tid=186&tid=214
-
One could only hope...it'd be interesting to see a JMS brand of Star Trek...there's a HUGE universe there with plenty of backstory and lots of room to expand. I'm sure JMS would find a way to make things interesting...VERY interesting.
We'll see what Paramount wants to do. If they are smart, maybe they can go in this direction...give them the freedom they need, and reinvent the franchise enough to make it interesting.
-
You B5 was actually what it was because JMS pitched his story ideas ot the ST people and they rejected it - so it adapted it and created his own universe
DS9 was somewhat loosely based off his ideas
---------------
Once i found this out [today] i could see some vauge similiarities
Cardassians = Centauri
Bajorians (sp?) = Narn
Dominion = Shadows
Sisko = Sheridan
-
I wonder why he said no to working on Enterprise. There's a lot of stuff to work with there (what's already been in the show plus the events that are supposed to happen about that time) with a good writer.
Anyway, I do hope that he'll be able to get the ST series after it.
-
The creators of Dark Skies AND Crusade team up with a innovative idea... there's no way that this wouldn't get cancelled after it's first season. I'd rather it didn't get off the ground at all than have that happen.
Being serious for a moment though JMS was actually offered an EP job on Enterprise a while back and turned them down.
-
[color=66ff00]Not to be a pessimist but I'd be rather surprised if they said yes. From what I've read JMS had to cram two seasons worth of story into season 5 of B5. That was with a studio that suported him.
Paramount and it's flunkies have already turned him down once, I doubt they'll reconsider. Crusade didn't get a chance (much to my chagrin) and Legend of the Rangers was a bit terrible.
[/color]
-
Having never seen Babylon 5, (though, somewhat Ironically I know a fair bit about i through TBP and discussions on here and stuff)I can't really get excited about this. I don't think there's much more that can be done to Star Trek at this point. Enterprise is heating up and starting to get good, but it'll never be able to be as cool as DS9, and really, there aren;t too many time periods left without going into the post Voyager future, where the Federation's crazy technological advantage (From the Voyager finale) and the overall status of the Universe (Everyone's either had their arse kicked or is pretty much friendly) would lead to a fairly boring show IMO. But, there's always some hope I guess.
-
it's nice to see some fresh blood at least.
-
I hope he has a good idea.
-
Originally posted by Black Wolf
Having never seen Babylon 5, (though, somewhat Ironically I know a fair bit about i through TBP and discussions on here and stuff)I can't really get excited about this. I don't think there's much more that can be done to Star Trek at this point. Enterprise is heating up and starting to get good, but it'll never be able to be as cool as DS9, and really, there aren;t too many time periods left without going into the post Voyager future, where the Federation's crazy technological advantage (From the Voyager finale) and the overall status of the Universe (Everyone's either had their arse kicked or is pretty much friendly) would lead to a fairly boring show IMO. But, there's always some hope I guess.
JMS would be quite capable of turning that crazy Federation technological advantage into some sort of disadvantage with a price and consequences.
-
I don't see any similarities between Babylon 5 and the Startrek Universe. I hope it stays that way! Thats what makes Sci-Fi unique - having different shows to watch with different purposes!
Personally JMS doesn't belong with Startrek, his ideas for B5 have always been mutually good and successful but due to the lack of support from the entertainment industry his great ideas get influenced by bastard executives in high positions that are ungrateful and want changes to his shows. Overall B5 was good, and Crusade could have been slightly better, Legend of the Rangers needed work but hopefully his upcoming project (non-Startrek AFAIK) will prove entertaining.
Startrek hasn't been successful ever since enterprise for the very reason they went backwards and not forwards! I think a series set in the 28th Century would have been cool. :D
btw jms' news (http://www.jmsnews.com) is worth checking out here and there
-
I still want to see a ST series set in the Mirror universe. :D
-
This is as close as it gets, Star Wreck (http://www.starwreck.com/)
-
This would only be good if JMS didn't write more than two or three episodes a season. The man can plot well enough, but his dialogue-- ugg. His characters can't even go to the bathroom without making it sound epic.
-
You're worried about sounding too epic in the Star "Must.Emphasize.Every.Word....KHAAAAN" Trek universe??
-
Kirk is dead, Ricky.
-
Originally posted by ZylonBane
Kirk is dead, Ricky.
[color=66ff00]Kirk is dead!?!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
[/color]
-
Originally posted by Xelion
I don't see any similarities between Babylon 5 and the Startrek Universe.
Did you not watch DS9 then?
That show was very different from the other Star Trek shows precisely because it was B5-like.
-
Originally posted by ZylonBane
This would only be good if JMS didn't write more than two or three episodes a season. The man can plot well enough, but his dialogue-- ugg. His characters can't even go to the bathroom without making it sound epic.
I had those thoughts about the dialogue in DS9. It often seemed somewhat stilted or was being taken too seriously.
-
Originally posted by Black Wolf
Having never seen Babylon 5, (though, somewhat Ironically I know a fair bit about i through TBP and discussions on here and stuff)I can't really get excited about this. I don't think there's much more that can be done to Star Trek at this point. Enterprise is heating up and starting to get good, but it'll never be able to be as cool as DS9, and really, there aren;t too many time periods left without going into the post Voyager future, where the Federation's crazy technological advantage (From the Voyager finale) and the overall status of the Universe (Everyone's either had their arse kicked or is pretty much friendly) would lead to a fairly boring show IMO. But, there's always some hope I guess.
They must be having technical difficulties with it then, 'cause I saw nothing in Nemesis that came from Voyager besides Janeway.
Would've made for a boring show though.
"Captain, the Scimitar is recloaking!"
"Meh, shoot it with a transphasic torpedo or something. I want to ride around some more on that dune buggy."
-
lol!
Turn on the Bat Armor!
-
Originally posted by Kosh
I had those thoughts about the dialogue in DS9. It often seemed somewhat stilted or was being taken too seriously.
Eh, that was just Sisko. And his speechifying could be forgiven because it usually came with some really, really good CGI space battles attached.
/misses Quark
-
Quark has to be the 3rd best character to ever appear in Trek.
[list=1]- Kurn: Worf's brother. The guy who played him, and whose name escapes me, is a good actor and plays the surly Klingon very well. And as a character, Kurn had some great stuff to do and say, like rallying four squadrons to Gowron's cause during the Civil War and "Just a short while ago, I had to stop myself from killing Commander Riker".
- Martok: Leader of the Empire. He just kicks ass on so many levels. He had half-decent character development with the whole 'scared to fight' thing. And he wasn't a moron or a Romulan colaborator like most Klingons. Every time he spoke about his wife was pure comedy; Absolutely loathing her, but loving her for being a complete cow.
- Quark: There is one, simple, short thing that makes Quark kick ass: The 'ode' to Picard's Borg speech he gives to Zek and Rom -
Originally ripped-off by Quark:
I don't care. I won't preside over the demise of Ferengi civilization. Not me! The line has to be drawn here! This far and no further!
-
I still like Worf, Lore, Picard, and Picard-as-Locutus myself.
-
My favourite character was always Han Solo, but thats just me.
-
Originally posted by karajorma
Did you not watch DS9 then? That show was very different from the other Star Trek shows precisely because it was B5-like.
I've watched every ST and B5 episode available and I doubt those 2 even resemble each other remotely. I've even continued to read the books after Ds9 and still can't see the resemblance some of you guys are seeing... there simply is none, the fact that they're both stations doesn't mean squat, they way they talk or even the fact that theres a wormhole and not a jump gate. - its coincidence!
btw ST:DS9 is one of the best trek series ever! :p
-
yes it is but if you read the outline that JMS gave paramount and watch the pilot for DS9 there are quite a few erry similarities
-
I've never seen a full episode of Babylon, but if he can make a new series that brings back the Star Trek of DS9, I'm all for it.
-
Originally posted by Xelion
I've watched every ST and B5 episode available and I doubt those 2 even resemble each other remotely. I've even continued to read the books after Ds9 and still can't see the resemblance some of you guys are seeing... there simply is none, the fact that they're both stations doesn't mean squat, they way they talk or even the fact that theres a wormhole and not a jump gate. - its coincidence!
:wtf:
Did you not notice the whole Sheridan is The One, Sisko is the prophet thing?
Originally posted by Bobboau
yes it is but if you read the outline that JMS gave paramount and watch the pilot for DS9 there are quite a few erry similarities
Got a link? I'd love to read that.
-
It's pretty blindingly obvious.
DS9 = B5 (both with a numeric designation even)
Defiant = Whitestar (little prototype ships with a big punch, designed to fight the Borg/Shadows)
Sisko = Sinclair ("He is The One!")
Bajorans = Minbari (strongly religous; "Sisko/Sinclair is The One!")
Odo = Garibaldi (the gruff, streetwise, emotionally shuttered, seen-it-all security chief)
Giant overkill CGI space battles = Giant overkill CGI space battles (both worked on by Foundation Imaging, oddly enough)
Promenade = Zocolo
Wormhole = Jumpgate
And of course DS9 was the first Trek to feature season-long story arcs, something which B5 notable introduced to TV scifi.
-
Well i just bought voyager dvd season 1 lol i think i made the wrong decision, i should have gone for ds9 cause there's more shooting in it
-
Originally posted by USS Alexander
Well i just bought voyager dvd season 1 lol i think i made the wrong decision, i should have gone for ds9 cause there's more shooting in it
Should have gone for DS9 on the grounds that it isn't a load of B&B fanwank :D
That said I never much liked season one of DS9. For me it took a whie for the series to get good.
Originally posted by ZylonBane
Defiant = Whitestar (little prototype ships with a big punch, designed to fight the Borg/Shadows)
What makes me laugh is that both ships were introduced in the same episode. Ep 3x01 :lol:
So even if DS9 is heavily based on JMS's pitch to Paramount that has to be a coincidence surely :nervous:
-
Maybe it's a conspiracy instead.
-
Originally posted by USS Alexander
Well i just bought voyager dvd season 1 lol i think i made the wrong decision
More obvious words have never been spoken.
-
Voyager isn't all bad. The doctor is okay, as is Tom and Harry (The only ensign who doesn't die...permanently. Yet. :p) Seven of Nine also has her moments.
I think part of the problem is that somewhere, in the back of every person who view Voyager, is the knowledge that during any given episode they probably missed out on a few dozen thousand lightyears of their journey home.
Plus the whole series is stereotypical. You think it's a coincidence that the one Starfleet ship with a female captain gets lost, and is constantly having to make stops on its trip? :p ;)
-
Originally posted by Knight Templar
I've never seen a full episode of Babylon, but if he can make a new series that brings back the Star Trek of DS9, I'm all for it.
You poor, poor, man.
I am actually surprised how many people haven't seen B5 around here. Especially considering that's it's the next best thing since.... well, anything on TV, really, bar perhaps selected episodes of the original trek. Indeed, people, you have Kazaa, E-mule, and whatnot to work with.
-
Another thing to add to DS9 is it seems like writers decided Sisko needed to be more agressive (plus bald with the goatee) at about the same time Sheridan got a goatee and became "Mr. Fission." (instead of Mr. Fusion :p )
Of course for some reason I can't help but laugh during DS9 because the actor who plays Sisko almost seems to go into a Shatner like voice pattern when at the start of the show that wasn't being done.
Maybe there's a law of physics where in Trek the acting capacity of the captain goes down exponentially during the course show?
In B5 I'd say it was the opposite. The guy who played Sinclair couldn't say a single thing without announcing it to the world and trying to be "epic" while the later captains were able to have a wider range of well... acting :p
-
Strange really, I always thought O'Hare was a lot better as Sinclair than Boxleitner as Sheridan. First, O'Hare looked a lot more captainish than Boxleitner, who looked before he got a goatee just like military jarhead pretty-boy. Plus, O'Hare had a bit more sublety.
-
Originally posted by Stunaep
Strange really, I always thought O'Hare was a lot better as Sinclair than Boxleitner as Sheridan. First, O'Hare looked a lot more captainish than Boxleitner, who looked before he got a goatee just like military jarhead pretty-boy. Plus, O'Hare had a bit more sublety.
The character was written more subtle, but his acting was pretty blunt and rough: "I AM A CAPTAIN!!!111" On the bright side though, he'd make a perfect voiceover dude for Discovery channel stuff...
Also, Sheridan was *supposed* to be a military jarhead pretty-boy.
-
Yes, but that doesn't mean I have to like that. :p
-
Originally posted by Bobboau
yes it is but if you read the outline that JMS gave paramount and watch the pilot for DS9 there are quite a few erry similarities
Well if you have a link or you could send me a copy, maybe this thread would make more sense in its similarities otherwise these are all just coincidences and generalizations!
-
ermm... Similarities:
- Both on station: *SHOCK* WHOA! What a miracle! Never though this would happen!
- Prophets and First Ones: Seriously, there is no comparison. The Prophets are the Bajoran 'Gods'. First Ones were never 'Gods'. The closest there is are the Vorlons who impersonated angels. But they did it for a completely different reason and thus no basis for comparison.
- Major war: :wtf: Come on. Every series has wars in it. This is a stupid comparison as well.
And add about a dozen more senseless Star Trek bashing comparisons from rabid B5ers and you have 'm all. Completely stupid and no real basis to compare it on. Period.
-
Tiara: except that the proposal JMS submitted and his pilot for B5 are very similiar
-
Originally posted by Stunaep
You poor, poor, man.
I am actually surprised how many people haven't seen B5 around here. Especially considering that's it's the next best thing since.... well, anything on TV, really, bar perhaps selected episodes of the original trek. Indeed, people, you have Kazaa, E-mule, and whatnot to work with.
Well, part of it has to do with B5 not being shown here for some reason. Maybe on Sci-Fi, but it ain't on cable.
Coolmon: Who says Voyager is the only ship with a female captain? It could just be the only ship with a stupid one...
-
Originally posted by Tiara
And add about a dozen more senseless Star Trek bashing comparisons from rabid B5ers and you have 'm all. Completely stupid and no real basis to compare it on. Period.
Tiara, since your tendency to be hardheaded is inversely proportional to your tendency to be right, I'll just let JMS do the talking:
Category 18, Topic 22
Message 661 Wed Sep 30, 1992
STRACZYNSKI [Joe] at 03:42 EDT
If it were only a matter of set design, you wouldn't
hear a peep from me. For what I hope will be the last time,
here's how it lays down:
BABYLON 5 DEEP SPACE 9
Commander Sinclair Commander Sisko
Casino Casino
Bar Bar
Female second in command Female second in command
Shapechanger in original script Shapechanger in pilot
script
Located near a jump-point (warp) Located near wormhole
(warp)
Number-designated space station Number-designated space
station
Hookers Hookers
Similar prosthetics Similar prosthetics
Similar sets Similar sets
Female 2nd fending off attack Female 2nd fending off
at end attack
Bazaar Promenade
Cmdr. haunted by recent war Cmdr. haunted by recent
battle
Cmdr. is unmarried Cmdr. is (now) unmarried
Freeport/port of call Freeport/port of call
Travelers/diplomats/smugglers Travelers/diplomats/smugglers
Those are the highlights. There's more, but this
point has been belabored far more than is reasonable at this
point. With one bit of new information...I've heard that
Majel Barrett-Roddenberry has been quoted as saying that B5
has borrowed from DS9...now I can't personally confirm this,
I wasn't there, but if those who sent me private mail
testifying to this want to come forward, they're welcome to
do so (though no onus is attached if they don't).
Can such things happen by accident? That's more a
question for others.
JMS
-
Originally posted by ZylonBane
BABYLON 5 DEEP SPACE 9
Commander Sinclair Commander Sisko[/quote]
Seriously :wtf: Their first two letter are the same... Lol, people are desperate to find similarities.
Casino Casino
Bar Bar[/quote]
Any station with civilions on it has that. Big ****ing deal.
Female second in command Female second in command[/quote]
Merely coincidental. Ivanova and Nerys are NOTHING alike.
Shapechanger in original script Shapechanger in pilot
script[/quote]
Shapeshifter in about a dozen other movies and series. Big ****ing deal. The Shapeshifter in DS9 actually played a major role. in B5 it never did. Again, a desperate comparison.
Located near a jump-point (warp) Located near wormhole
(warp)[/quote]
Wormhole: Natural phenomena; jumps to other side of the galaxy, Jump Gate: Constructed; jumps to hyperspace. Again no real basis for comparison.
Number-designated space station Number-designated space
station[/quote]
Ok, now it's just getting pitifull. Any ****ing navy has number designated ships and bases. It's not like the names even remotely look alike. :ick: BABYLON 5 - DEEP SPACE 9... No, it's just another bull**** argument.
Hookers Hookers[/quote]
lol... This is supposed to be a similarity? There are hookers in every damned universe. No big surprise here.
Similar prosthetics Similar prosthetics[/quote]
:wtf: Just :wtf: Explain.
Similar sets Similar sets[/quote]
Ok, you gotta be kidding me right? They look absolutely NOTHING alike. Ok, perhaps a little bit in the civilian section but that's to be expected in a station.
Female 2nd fending off attack Female 2nd fending off
at end attack[/quote]
Desperation is just dripping of this attempt to discredit ST. Seriously.
Bazaar Promenade[/quote]
Again; desperation dripping of this attempt.
Cmdr. haunted by recent war Cmdr. haunted by recent
battle[/quote]
Sisko wasn't haunted by the battle he was haunted by the position he was put in by the entire Bajoran people as Emmisary. Again, a stupid point.
Cmdr. is unmarried Cmdr. is (now) unmarried[/quote]
Whee, and the desperation continues to drip onto the floor. :ick:
Freeport/port of call Freeport/port of call[/quote]
:wtf: Seriously.
Travelers/diplomats/smugglers Travelers/diplomats/smugglers[/quote]
You just described 70% of all bases in sci-fi. :p
Those are the highlights. There's more, but this
point has been belabored far more than is reasonable at this
point. With one bit of new information...I've heard that
Majel Barrett-Roddenberry has been quoted as saying that B5
has borrowed from DS9...now I can't personally confirm this,
I wasn't there, but if those who sent me private mail
testifying to this want to come forward, they're welcome to
do so (though no onus is attached if they don't).
Can such things happen by accident? That's more a
question for others.
JMS
I highly doubt this actually came from JMS because he just can't be this stupid. All these similarities are utter crap.
-
Tiara did you even pay attention to who wrote that?
Do you even know about the brief he submitted to paramount as a Star Trek idea before he made babylon 5?
-
Originally posted by Kazan
Tiara did you even pay attention to who wrote that?
Sure I did, but it certainly doesn't sound like him.
Do you even know about the brief he submitted to paramount as a Star Trek idea before he made babylon 5?
Yes I do. But saying B5 and DS9 are really similar is just bull****. Almost everything is different besides the fact that they both are on a station. Almost every aspect of the story is different. So maybe they took notice of the idea JMS submitted (and they should as he's a great author), that doesn't mean they outright copied him to the furthest extend possible. It's a baseless accusation.
The story itself was written by B&B (surprisingly) and had little to no resemblance to B5 at all.
-
Originally posted by Tiara
Sure I did, but it certainly doesn't sound like him.
Eat crow much?
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-7434
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-7427
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-1304
-
Originally posted by ZylonBane
Eat crow much?
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-7434
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-7427
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-1304
Ok, in his own words:
they will be very different shows, in many ways, in
terms of the stories and the characters and the fact that we just
operate in a completely different fictional universe.
:rolleyes:
As for his second post, that's just bull****. They might look similar but when you look just a little bit better then just skimming over the top of the sets you'll see great differences.
Also, for the prostethics, they copied it from ST. Seriously, their prosthetics were seen in similar fashions in TNG and even TOS for god's sake. Sci-fi make-up was created by Star Trek for ****s sake. If anything they copied it from ST. Another lame argument.
As for the female second in command taking charge of the defense.. *SHOCK* second in command takes charge of the defense. *SHOCK* Seriously. If this is the best similarity there is it's just another crap-a-delic argument like all the others.
The strategic position of DS9 would indeed make it look a bit like B5 in terms of smuglers and merchants but in a VERY different fashion. B5 is an 'open' station as in build to be that. DS9 is an 'open' station as in conquered and falling under Bajoran juristiction and under the protection of the Federation. Which is a huge difference. Any friggin' 'open' station has smuglers and merchants. It's absurd to call that a similarity in the fashion.
JMS is just being paranoid here. My respect for the guy just dropped a few levels. (Though his writing remains awesome :p)
-
JMS is not being paranoid, Tiara you're totally talking out of your ass.
-
Ooowww... I'm scared by your awesome argument :rolleyes:
Really, if you've got nothing better to say shut up and accept defeat. Else bring better arguments to the table.
-
JMS says you're wrong.
YOU admit defeat, loon.
-
Originally posted by ZylonBane
JMS says you're wrong.
YOU admit defeat, loon.
Ow, so now JMS is god? You guys are just full of awesome argument :rolleyes:
Seriously, he just throws around baseless conjecture and I'm supposed to believe it? I'm not as gullable as you, so it seems. He provides 0 pieces of evidence. He doesn't even provide a damned clue as to why I should believe him.
I'm really astounded by the level of ignorance of you and Kazan in this thread. the two persons from which I didn't expect it. :ick:
-
Let's not forget 3rd season of DS9 - Defiant, 3rd season of B5 - Whitestar. Both with exactly the same purpose, covert missions into enemy territory (Dominion space, EA space). The similarities are beyond obvious and anyone who won't see them is deluding themselves.
-
Originally posted by SadisticSid
Let's not forget 3rd season of DS9 - Defiant, 3rd season of B5 - Whitestar. Both with exactly the same purpose, covert missions into enemy territory (Dominion space, EA space). The similarities are beyond obvious and anyone who won't see them is deluding themselves.
I'm not saying there aren't ANY similarities. In any and every show there are similarities. But when people are starting to look at hookers, smuglers and merchants for similaities it reeks of desperation.
A few similarities != totally ripped off show (like people here are argueing)
Besides, the Defiant is also different. It's built solely from Federation tech as opposed to uber tech from the Vorlons and Minbari. (Cloak only added later but isn't standard for the ship).
But nonetheless, I admit that this similarity is a tad bit... strong :p But still not meaning DS9 was ripped from B5. At all.
-
Tiara. You're assuming that we're saying that DS9 is a direct copy of B5. I'm certainly not saying that but there are a lot of similarities between the two and no doubt the storyline of DS9 was influenced a lot by the JMS series proposal.
You're probably going to tell me next that Antz and A Bugs Life coming out at the same time was just a coincidence and that the two have nothing in common apart from being animated stories about insects.
-
Originally posted by karajorma
Tiara. You're assuming that we're saying that DS9 is a direct copy of B5. I'm certainly not saying that but there are a lot of similarities between the two and no doubt the storyline of DS9 was influenced a lot by the JMS series proposal.
I even admitted that the overall premise would probably have been influenced by JMS. I'm not denying that. :) But people here make it seem like DS9 is a total rip off while the entire story, characters, enviroment, etc, etc, etc is TOTALLY and UTTERLY different.
-
No, that's not what they are saying... it has a good story, characters, enviroment... it is worth watching by all means... but that doesn't change the fact that it resembles B5.
-
Does anyone have the JMS proposal? If it mentions a character like Sisko we can put this one to bed right now.
-
Originally posted by Tiara
Ow, so now JMS is god? You guys are just full of awesome argument :rolleyes:
JMS, unlike you, was personally involved in this situation up to his neck. So pardon the rest of us for granting his words more credence than your frothing, hand-waving naysaying.
-
The problem I've seen with this argument is that all of the similarities are rather cosmetic. That list of so-called similarities between the pilots doesn't really make much sense to me, especially since most of those things were seen in Star Trek before DS9 was even brought to the table. Some are forced, others are pulled out of thin air, while some are indeed legitimate. The prosthetics (actually most heavily pioneered for Star Wars, while we're on the subject) are common to sci-fi that relies on actors rather than special effects. There are only so many ways to do "alien" and still have a human playing them. And truth be told, the prosthetics on the B5 trailer are a moot point anyway, since most were completely reworked for the show. The whole ordinally-named station thing is just plain stupid, never mind that it first appeared in Star Trek way back in the TOS days anyway. But I'm siding with the Trek argument here, and that's not what I'm trying to do. What I really would like to point out is that the two shows - and their stories - are very different despite some apparent similarities, and I'm not about to believe that anything was copied outright (one way or the other) without more than one person's rantings who has been connected with either project. I'm sorry, but I don't have the esteem of JMS to let his word be the basis for a crusade. If you want to compare the shows based on their qualities, then fine. But this is not a worthy debate since it's going the way of ATI vs NVidia, PC-Apple, etc. My honest opinion on the original thread subject is this: JMS does not do trek. His style wouldn't fit. Let him do projects where he can break his own ground, it'll be more enjoyable that way.
-
Well, while I do agree that there are similarities (as in almost ANY two sci-fi shows :p) I still don't agree that the load JMS claims is copied directly from his ideas.
Anyway, this entire debate is actually bull**** because both shows are my favorite shows :D B5 was just.... epic. As was DS9. The two stories took two completely different directions. And besides certain cosmetic similarities there are virtually NONE.
In short: Both shows are excellent. :D And this entire debate was a waste of time :p
-
We're pointing out similiarites and influence, not that one was a rip of the other, read the words before replying to them Tiara
-
Originally posted by Kazan
We're pointing out similiarites and influence, not that one was a rip of the other, read the words before replying to them Tiara
Well, the last few replies coming from you guys were just lame. Seriously. :p
Anyway,
Well, while I do agree that there are similarities (as in almost ANY two sci-fi shows ) I still don't agree that the load JMS claims is copied directly from his ideas.
Anyway, this entire debate is actually bull**** because both shows are my favorite shows B5 was just.... epic. As was DS9. The two stories took two completely different directions. And besides certain cosmetic similarities there are virtually NONE.
In short: Both shows are excellent. And this entire debate was a waste of time
:p
-
*Rolleyes* You seem to keep forgetting that a brief JMS submitted for the "the new" star trek series [at that time] wasn't the final approved, but did heavily influence DS9.
B5 was mostly based off that brief.
-
Originally posted by Kazan
*Rolleyes* You seem to keep forgetting that a brief JMS submitted for the "the new" star trek series [at that time] wasn't the final approved, but did heavily influence DS9.
B5 was mostly based off that brief.
Yes, the PREMISE for DS9 was based off that. I agreed to that in this very thread. But after it actually started it took a COMPLETELY different turn then B5 did. The series are completely different despite of the fact that they were based on the same premise.
That's my whole point. I'm not ignoring the fact that JMS has influenced DS9, hell I even agreed with that :p
-
Originally posted by Tiara
Well, while I do agree that there are similarities (as in almost ANY two sci-fi shows :p) I still don't agree that the load JMS claims is copied directly from his ideas.
You can't claim that unless you know WHAT his ideas were. What JMS pitched to paramount almost certainly wasn't B5. He was pitching the idea for a trek series. After the idea fell through he had quite a long time to alter his ideas now that he was writing his own universe and could ditch any bagage he had from TOS and TNG.
For all you know the character of Sisko could be exactly what JMS pitched to the execs. The differences that you feel are large enough to make you think that DS9 wasn't taken from B5 could be stuff that JMS added to the concept later on.
Here's a example B5 looks very different from DS9. However B5 has to rotate to provide artificial gravity. That's something that wouldn't be a consideration in a Trek series because everyone has AG. So already you can see why the two stations looking different can't be used as an arguement for why the two don't share a common ancestor. Once you decide to go for a universe in which humankind don't have AG things will start to look very different.
The other differences you point out between B5 and DS9 could very easily have evolved the same way. You only have to look at the differences between The Gathering and Midnight On The Firing Line to see how much a series can change in one year.
The point is that JMS feels that his idea was ripped off. Unless someone can produce his draft for a Trek series only himself and the execs he pitched the idea to really know what was said. Given the way both shows would mutate away from the original pitch as time passed I'm definately inclined to believe him.
Let's make this arguement clear cause it's starting to look like we're argueing at cross purposes. What I'm saying (and what Kazan and ZB are probably saying) is that DS9 is a rip-off of the ideas JMS pitched to the Paramount execs. I'm not talking about influence. Every sci-fi show has influences. I'm saying that based on what JMS said DS9 is a direct rip-off of his pitch to Paramount.
Enough of the original premise made it through into both shows to support this premise. The question is whether you agree with that statement. If you don't feel free to argue why DS9 and B5 don't share a common ancestor.
-
I was talking about JMS's claims stated earlier in the thread not his entire idea because we never got to see that :doubt:
-
Well it's quite possible that in that text he quoted the stuff in his pitch that ended up in both shows. There is no point in him saying "Quantum Torpedos. They were my idea" as he has no supporting evidence but if he says "The One was my idea" and then points to Sisko and Sinclair it's a completely different point as it's no stretch to believe the two share a common ancestor.
If you pay attention to the claims posted earlier they were originally posted by JMS before The Gathering or DS9 premiered so it's obvious he wasn't saying that DS9 was a rip off of B5 since neither had aired yet.
-
Really, I don't feel like ranting all my arguments again since you still haven't disproven any of them. So let's just call it a day. It's latre over here and I'm tired.
It's not like either of us will actually change our minds because there is no solid evidence either way :p
-
I read all your arguements. They only apply to DS9 being a rip off of B5. Not to them sharing a common ancestor. I explained how a show can evolve and there is over a year between JMS's post and the first airing of either series.
Besides I don't have to disprove your arguements. You have to disprove mine since I agree with the one source we do have :p
-
the charicter for the captan of the station that JMS proposed was basicly Sinclair, his comand origonaly was going to take the whole seriese and at the end of the show he was going to acend to be the god like charicter that many believed him to be. in the end Sinclair was reworked to acend to godhood at the end of the first season, and nobody knew that he was this godlike charicter untill after he did it.
-
Originally posted by Kazan
*Rolleyes* You seem to keep forgetting that a brief JMS submitted for the "the new" star trek series [at that time] wasn't the final approved, but did heavily influence DS9.
B5 was never going to be set in the Star Trek universe. There's a post in that archive I linked to that specifically refutes this notion.
-
Originally posted by Tiara
It's not like either of us will actually change our minds because there is no solid evidence either way :p
Even if you accept that none of this evidence is "solid", there's still a crap load of it. One times ten is the same as ten times one.
-
But saying B5 and DS9 are really similar is just bull****
Yeah, B5 is too good to be compared with DS9. :p
-
Originally posted by Kosh
Yeah, B5 is too good to be compared with DS9. :p
Seconded :)
-
Well, to each his own. I completely disagree with that notion.