Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tiara on June 26, 2004, 08:56:05 pm
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I'll probably get replies like "This is f*cking ancient!!!111oneoneone" etc. but I don't care. It's just great :D
(The main reason i find this great is because of my recent visit to Paris. It renewed my profound hatred of most (note: not all but most) French ppl. :ick: The arrogance just drips from every orifice of their bodies.)
(http://www.themanwhofellasleep.com/wallpaper/world1024.jpg)
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I don't get it...
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Forget to post something Mrs. T? :p
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You guys blind or something? :p
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I see someone's been sipping on the Hatorade..
There's two things I hate. People who are intollerant of other people's culutures, and the Germans.:nod: :nod:
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Well, there's no France, so you might be able to float Great Britain down and make a big highway between Spain and Germany.
I'm more concerned about where France went. Did aliens abduct it? Will we have French speaking aliens showing up within our lifetimes and demanding tribute in Franks? :p
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Originally posted by Rictor
People who are intollerant of other people's culutures
I'm not intollerant of their culture... I'm intollerant of the French people. :p
Ow, and France moved to New York. It's now a new American state and is slowly but surely consuming and corrupting the other states. In other words: Not changing a thing.
:p j/k
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Originally posted by Tiara
It renewed my profound hatred of most (note: not all but most) French ppl. :ick: The arrogance just drips from every orifice of their bodies.
Just wanna know something: what is that makes us look so arrogant to you?
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What'swrong with the French?
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Originally posted by Nico
Just wanna know something: what is that makes us look so arrogant to you?
Ok,
- While I know most of you speak English, you refuse to. :ick:
- Everytime I walk into a store and they find out I'm a foreigner they get all cocky and distrusting. Looking at me like I'm a criminal. Wants to make me bash their craniums in. :ick:
- On the street when they hear me talk Dutch with my friend they look at us like we're aliens from Mars and refuse to give directions and/or answer any questions. They just outright ignore us.
- At clubs/restaurants/etc... The same thing. Arrogant,offensive and refusing to speak English.
Just a few points. And not just in Paris, I've had exactly the same thing in Marsailles a few years ago. Now, I've never been to the smaller villages so I don't know how people are there but city-French are a huge pain in the ass. I'm just glad I speak French else we'd be lost there.
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Sounds wonderful. At least in American, a lot of us don't speak other languages, so we can't refuse to.
I personally know enough Spanish to find a bathroom, and I might be able to order some chicken on a good day.
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Originally posted by Tiara
- While I know most of you speak English, you refuse to. :ick:
That's good. The overt americanisation of everything is starting to get on my nerves
- Everytime I walk into a store and they find out I'm a foreigner they get all cocky and distrusting. Looking at me like I'm a criminal. Wants to make me bash their craniums in. :ick:
Could it be, because they know most foreigners consider the french arrogant pricks? No, couldn't be that
- On the street when they hear me talk Dutch with my friend they look at us like we're aliens from Mars and refuse to give directions and/or answer any questions. They just outright ignore us.
- At clubs/restaurants/etc... The same thing. Arrogant,offensive and refusing to speak English.
That's just your first point over and over again. So, in the grand scheme, you think the french are arrogant, because they actually have respect for their culture. Uhuh, sure, happens to be exactly why I like the french over 90% of the general population.
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Originally posted by Nico
Just wanna know something: what is that makes us look so arrogant to you?
There's a lot of historical stuff, but i wont go into that cause i'm not a historian.
However, I am a student and had to live in the same flat as a French person last year - and he did come across as pretty arrogant. Maybee he didnt mean it, but he'd do things like use try to squeeze all his pots and pans on the same cooker as you were using - when the other cooker was clearly not in use. He'd also sit on a chair (in front of the TV, for example), that it was pretty obvious you were going to come back to, even while you were still in the room. He didnt seem to have much concept of... well, not being rude.
I know you cant judge a whole nation on the actions of one, but it pretty much reinforces the stereotype. And we did meet his sister too, who was over for 2 weeks. She must have said about 5 words max. to anyone other than him.
I could list his other faults, including bad fashion sense, lack of personal hygene, bad music taste, and general anti-socialness (he does drink for ****s sake. We're STUDENTS!).... but that would just seem petty so i wont go on.
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Originally posted by Stunaep
That's good. The overt americanisation of everything is starting to get on my nerves
Sorry to say it, but you're a moron. It's not Americanization, it's a simple matter of knowing the only international language in the world.
Could it be, because they know most foreigners consider the french arrogant pricks? No, couldn't be that
Again a moronic statement. Sorry, but if you show a little bit more respect instead of treating us like garbage I wouldnt think of them as arrogant pricks.
That's just your first point over and over again. So, in the grand scheme, you think the french are arrogant, because they actually have respect for their culture. Uhuh, sure, happens to be exactly why I like the french over 90% of the general population.
They don't just 'like' their culture, they wank over it. It's a spunk soaked culture. We Dutch respect our culture but we don't wank on it and force it upon others like most of the French do.
You seriously brespect them for being like this.? Something is very very wrong with you.
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Originally posted by Stunaep
- Everytime I walk into a store and they find out I'm a foreigner they get all cocky and distrusting. Looking at me like I'm a criminal. Wants to make me bash their craniums in.
___________________________________________
Could it be, because they know most foreigners consider the french arrogant pricks? No, couldn't be that
Sorry Stunaep, but i have to say when I'm on holiday somewhere i don't exactly walk into the shop burning that nations flag and call every person i see a snail guzzling freak (or other national insult), and I doubt Tiara does either.
You dont walk into a shop/restraunt with the "arrogant pricks" attitude, but you do get it back.
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"Respect our culture"?
Really, what makes you think that? Sure, there are musea, but generally I can hardly call the Dutch very cultured. That might just be my reference point as a high-schooler, mind.
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Originally posted by Tiara
Sorry to say it, but you're a moron. It's not Americanization, it's a simple matter of knowing the only international language in the world.
That was actually a very funny sentence, up to the international language part. Since the official business language of the EU is French, along with English, I see no problem with them wanting to speak their own mother tongue, in their own native country. Not to mention that french is the fourth most spoken language in the world (after Chinese, Hindu, and English). And besides, if you can speak french, what's your problem?
Again a moronic statement. Sorry, but if you show a little bit more respect instead of treating us like garbage I wouldnt think of them as arrogant pricks.
Well, yeah, I agree that was just arguing for arguing's sake, but it ain't any worse than you stating the same point four times over.
They don't just 'like' their culture, they wank over it. It's a spunk soaked culture. We Dutch respect our culture but we don't wank on it and force it upon others like most of the French do.
Good for you dutch. Now go accuse the americans for doing the same. After all, you've got a macdonalds on every corner, and coke in every store. ever see the french do any of that? No, they just want to live their lives on their country, without having to go along with the majority, if they don't want. They want to different from the rest, and I happen to like people who don't blindly go along with the herd.
As for rictor, that could easily happen with a brit, or an american, or an estonian for that matter. I for one know a french dude who lives here in estonia, and is a hell of a guy to hang out with. Go figure
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Stunaep, so I assume if everybody in Portugal, during the Euro2004, decided to speak nothing else but portuguese, you would be ok with it? I mean it's the 5th most spoken language in the world!! I mean come on!
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Kasperl: The Dutch culture has always been an trading international culture. And we still are. Hence the respecting our culture.
Originally posted by Stunaep
That was actually a very funny sentence, up to the international language part. Since the official business language of the EU is French, along with English, I see no problem with them wanting to speak their own mother tongue, in their own native country. Not to mention that french is the fourth most spoken language in the world (after Chinese, Hindu, and English). And besides, if you can speak french, what's your problem?
Again, it's not the part that they want to speak Frech, it's the part where they refuse to speak English to my friends. Most Dutch know at least a little bit of French (it's an obligatory part of the Dutch education). But when they refuse to speak English to a foreigner who is asking for ****ing directions or the time it's going too far. Always with a smirk look on their faces they just ignore you when you ask something in English. If a few persons don't know English fine... But It's was with every damned person that I had to help out my friends.
Also, the official business language WAS French. It hasn't been for some time. The only reason they still speak it, it because French busienessmen refuse to speak English like the rest of the business world.
Well, yeah, I agree that was just arguing for arguing's sake, but it ain't any worse than you stating the same point four times over.
Then they shouldn't treat foreigners like garbage.
Good for you dutch. Now go accuse the americans for doing the same. After all, you've got a macdonalds on every corner, and coke in every store. ever see the french do any of that? No, they just want to live their lives on their country, without having to go along with the majority, if they don't want. They want to different from the rest, and I happen to like people who don't blindly go along with the herd.
Don't mean to bother you but the French have McDonalds, Coke etc. Hell they even had a Kentucky Fried Chicked stand. They are just pretentious.
I'm not saying they can't live their lives in their own country the way they want but that doesn't give them the right to treat anyone else like ****. Period. I also like people who know what they want, but that doesn't mean they have to look down on everybody else. That's just hypocritical bull****.
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
Stunaep, so I assume if everybody in Portugal, during the Euro2004, decided to speak nothing else but portuguese, you would be ok with it? I mean it's the 5th most spoken language in the world!! I mean come on!
Good point. Paris is bidding for the next Olympics which means that they are going to get lots of foreign visitors who won't speak their language. It's pretty arrogant to attempt to draw in foreign visitors and then say that if they can't speak their language they shouldn't be there.
It was the same with EuroDisney. They bent over backwards trying to get it and then refused to do anything in English. Had they been able to get away with it I doubt that anything in the entire park would have been in English at all.
Need a further example? I just did a search for universities. Only one of the first five french universities had anything in English on it's website while ALL of the dutch ones had an entire version of the site in English.
That said I've found that most of the french people I know are quite pleasant. I think it may be just the big cities where people act that way. When I lived in Rennes I found lots of people who were happy to speak English to me.
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Originally posted by karajorma
That said I've found that most of the french people I know are quite pleasant. I think it may be just the big cities where people act that way. When I lived in Rennes I found lots of people who were happy to speak English to me.
Well, yes, I might've been a bit harsh with hating 'most of them' :p But the ones in Paris and Marsailles are truly :ick:
I too have French friends but they at least know how to act in front of foreigners. They respect others for who they are and that's why I respect them. But if people treat me like garbage the first time I meet them I'll do the samne to them.
Funny thing is, when I was there they didn't know i could speak French so i heard them talking about me and my friends in French. I totally scared them when I spoke French and cursed them in 5 different French dialects :p
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It's always fun when people assume you don't speak a language and you do, in the end.
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So it boils down to what, you shouldn't judge people or nations based on racial stereotypes? Gee, that's new.
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Originally posted by Stunaep
So it boils down to what, you shouldn't judge people or nations based on racial stereotypes? Gee, that's new.
Ow, go screw a donkey Stunaep with your 'Gee, that's new' comment. :rolleyes:
It's exactly what this is about. But the French I'm talking about don't seem to grasp that very simple concept. They outright refuse to do so.
And before you even try accusing me I'm not judging on racial stereotypes, I'm judging on experience.
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Originally posted by Stunaep
So it boils down to what, you shouldn't judge people or nations based on racial stereotypes? Gee, that's new.
It boils down to the fact that you should never assume someone is arrogant because they are French but that when you go to Paris you should expect to run into some very arrogant people sooner or later.
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Originally posted by karajorma
sooner or later.
Replace that with 'practically all the time' :doubt: (In Paris at least)
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Tiara, Quebecois (French Canadians) are worse than the real French. I've been to Montreal a few times, and every time I was in a resturant, it took me about an hour to get served, while people who came in after me (who just happened to speak french) were served in a few minutes. The last time me and my friend started yelling out "SERVE US YOU BIGOTS" and they got to serving us real quick.
Every sign in Quebec has to have everything in French first, and in the larger type than the English. If it's in English only you get fined, but the ones that are in French only they dont care about. Canada's primary language is English FFS. French is secondary. I'm not exadgerating either when I say that the rest of the country hates Quebec. The only reason we care if they leave is because it would split the country in half.
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Well... That explains it. Marseille and Paris ? The two cities with over-inflated egos ? (By the way, you should see when there's a football match between these two cities' team, they're worse than English hooligan at their worst)
And as for the english speaking bit : most people under 25 don't have that much difficulty speaking english. Unfortunately, this means that most of the people working in stores don't speak it, not that they don't want to speak it.
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Originally posted by Tiara
Ok,
- While I know most of you speak English, you refuse to. :ick:
- Everytime I walk into a store and they find out I'm a foreigner they get all cocky and distrusting. Looking at me like I'm a criminal. Wants to make me bash their craniums in. :ick:
- On the street when they hear me talk Dutch with my friend they look at us like we're aliens from Mars and refuse to give directions and/or answer any questions. They just outright ignore us.
- At clubs/restaurants/etc... The same thing. Arrogant,offensive and refusing to speak English.
Just a few points. And not just in Paris, I've had exactly the same thing in Marsailles a few years ago. Now, I've never been to the smaller villages so I don't know how people are there but city-French are a huge pain in the ass. I'm just glad I speak French else we'd be lost there.
-english: wrong. We learn basic english at college ( 12-> 16 ), a bit more at Lycée depending on what specialisation you choose. Now, looking around me, I'm really an exception, I know only a handful who could have a chat with an english people. I really don't know where you get the idea that most of us speak english. Most of the 30+ old surely don't speak english at all, since it wasn't a mandatory course back then. I really wonder where you got that assumption.
-what can I say about that? The same went for me when I went to Italia and Spain, I was looked down like I was trash ( some guy in Italy looked at my father and told him "tchi! if you don't speak the local language, what the hell are you doing here?" arrogant Italians :doubt: -I prefer not to talk about my one trip to London... English people just love us, you see )
-Since there's even less people talking dutch, it's no wonder they won't give you directions.
-Restaurants: I have a hard time believing you, honestly. I've worked in an hotel ( a big one, near the Gare de L'Est, with a restaurant and all ), and 90% of the people who go there are foreigners, since it's stuck between two major railroad stations. I haven't seen any kind of disrespect toward the customers. On a side note, I was also the best employee for speaking in english, by far; it's sad, I know, but that can't be helped. If if you tell me that's an exeption, I'll reply that I live in France and that's not the only hotel/restaurant I've ever seen in my life :p
Seems to me you go there expecting that... I wanna see how YOU behave when you go to a restaurant, thinking "oh great, those arrogants idiots again". French aren't friendly with people who are not friendly themselves to begin with, that's a fact that I won't deny.
Side note: for Marseilles, it's different. They treat everybody non-marseillais like asses, other frenchs included. Mmh, and Paris people kind of think they're France and the rest of the country is a large colony, but heh... ( I don't like Parisiens much :p )
edit: typos and various grammar errors.
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When half the world believes the sterotype, you may have a slightly larger issue at hand than an image problem.
I heard from someone (I believe they were in the service at the time) that had visited France that things seemed to improve once you got outside Paris, though.
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Originally posted by beatspete
However, I am a student and had to live in the same flat as a French person last year - and he did come across as pretty arrogant. Maybee he didnt mean it,[...]
Oh yeah, should reply to that one as well: dispite what I replied to Tiara, there IS also an incredible number of tards in France, no doubt.
Btw, I should point out that I'm pretty different in real life than I am here, so don't judge me on my posts.
I kind of look down on frenchs, but not because of their arrogance or anything, coz that's just made up and stupid. On the other hand, there's more annoying issues in France that, funilly, foreigners could use to mock them up ( seems to be an international sport to make fun of France, heh ) and completly miss...
->so, beatspete: I think he meant it :p You know, french or not, a guy like that, he just asks for a good slapping :p
The only reason they still speak it, it because French busienessmen refuse to speak English like the rest of the business world.
That's bull****, Tiara, don't lower yourself by making up such stupid aknowledgements.
Genryu: good point with the PSG/OM thing :lol:
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Ain't it ? ;)
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Bah Tiara...
1. Is there supose to be a image on the first page, because I don't see anything? :p
2. This is just as bad as people making fun of you because your not black, and black is the most accepted race in America, or where I live. *shrugs* I don't know about the whole country.
You can't say all people in Paris act that way just because some of them do, even though I think we know your just mentioning the few who do. But still, it's not really fair to call them all pricks or whatever, but it is fair to give a jackass the finger...
;)
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:lol:
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Everyone should just move to Canada. In a few years, anyone who is not a foreigner will be looked down upon, as if to say
"Look honey, its an English speakig person. We don't like them very much, do we?. Why don't they get their own country and let us Italians/Germans/Greeks/Russian/Yugoslavs/Koreans/Pakistanis/Chinese/Indians/Portugese/
Hungarians/Japanese/Trinidadians/Iranians/Iraqis/South Africans live in peace"
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Thorn: well, English is the main language for most of Canada, but not in Quebec. If there are more French speakers in a specific area than there are Enlgish speaker, I see no problem with letting them use French as their official language. And its good that Canadians going through school are taught at least one additional language, its what seperates Canadians from the Yanks.
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Besides, Quebec french is kind of... odd :p
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Odd ? More like even French are sometimes wondering what language they're speaking :)
I still wonder what kind of substances they were on when they were developping the Quebec version of the french language....
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I'm not disagreeing that the French can be pricks when you're an outsider in their country, or at least they were when i was there about six years ago, but look at it this way: One of my pet peeves, particularly here in Houston, where the Mexican population is growing rapidly... you'll be at Walmart or Costco or wherever, and sometimes people come up to you and speak to you completely in Spanish asking you for something. when this happens, i usually say "Do you speak English?" even though i'm almost fluent in Spanish. They always just keep going in Spanish, and in the end i have to resort to speaking Spanish back to them, but it makes me really mad. There's a guy at the restaurant i work at, who has been in America, with his family (wife and two kids) for 8 years now, and he doesn't speak more than two or three words in English. He knows how to say "yes" and "no", but he expects you to speak to him in Spanish. I think that's wrong, because there's no excuse as to why you can't learn at least a BIT of English in those 8 years. I respect people a lot more that come up to me asking directions or something that at least TRY to speak to me in English, it doesn't matter if they only know a few words, at least if they TRY, i think that makes it a lot better. And i think the same goes for the French. when i was there, i agree, if you didn't speak to them in French, if you expected them to speak to you in English, they would usually ignore you, laugh at you, etc. but if you TRIED to speak to them in French, even if it was broken, and you only knew a few words, they'd help you to the best of their ability. It is wrong for people to come into their country and expect them to suddenly drop their national language and speak to the foreigners in English, in the foreigners tongue. I don't speak much French, but when i went there, i memorized phrases, like "Where is the restroom?" and such, and i didn't have much trouble. The only times i had problems was when i tried speaking to them in English.
Sure i'm not saying it's right, because it's not, you've got to be tolerant of other people and their situations, but you can see where they're coming from. Overall though, the French were extremely arrogant, because in Italy, Portugal, Spain, and the few other European countries i visited, i never had that problem to the same degree as in France.
And you can't even say that they're arrogant to foreigners and tourists just since this "We didn't back America so America's media and society turned on us", because they may have had a point if that's when it started happening, but they didn't, they've been acting like that since as long as i can remember :p
Also, don't forget that most French citizens speak another language (English) fluently. That's more than can be said for Americans... if ANYONE expects people to speak their language, it's Americans. hence why they only speak one language for the most part: English
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people who live there and people who are just visiting are two entierly diferent balls of wax.
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yeah, but the principle still applies: people who speak the country's official/native language do not like to speak to other people in another language, particularly if that person doesn't even attempt to speak the country's native/official language. it's rude to not speak to a tourist/foreigner, but it's also rude for the tourist/foreigner to not try to speak the country's language, and instead to expect everyone else to speak their language.
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Originally posted by Nico
->so, beatspete: I think he meant it :p You know, french or not, a guy like that, he just asks for a good slapping :p
Nuts. I really wanted to punch him, but it didnt seem very fair cause he was about half the size of me. And now I'll never get the chance... well thats a good thing.
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Stealth: yeah, thats true. I think it would be sort of rude if I went to another country and didn't even attempt to learn some of the basics. I mean, OK, if you're only there for a weekend or a week, sure. But if its for any extended period of time, the least you can do is try to learn a few common phrases.
That being said, I never give foreigners dirty looks or anything. Because I am a foreigner, and I'm not living in my own country anyway so I can't dislike them cause they're invading my space or anything of that sort. But maybe the French are a bit arrogant, who knows. Never been there myself, and I have no particular wish to either.
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If I was at Wal-Mart and some chinese guy came up to me asking for something in chinese. I would laugh too...
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Well, let me add a little anecdote.
During my trip to europe, I toured both france and italy.
In Italy, I had a "plumping problem" and went into a pizza place to ask for the bathroom (no public one nearby that I could tell).
I had a few memorized phrases including the one for directions to the restroom. Too bad the acute pain was crimping my memory and I probably didn't get the phrase right at all.
The guy was kind enough to speak to me in English and point out where the washroom was.
I find out afterwards from a friend that practically everyone in europe's major cities understands enough english for me to ask for things in english XD.
BTW, the french in Canada are really protective of their language. I've heard a story of how a christmas present was confiscated once because the box it came in didn't have any french on it.
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WHAT
THE
****
ENGLISH = British language. The yanks didn't ****ing invent it you tools - the English did and good on them.
And as for this discussion of respecting other ppls culture... I'll respect it so long as it's financialy worth my while. Rule Britannia.
That is my contribution to this little tardy thread.
Oh and France is part of a group of nations trying to make the UK part of a superstate so this time - blow me france.
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I took French in Junior High and my first 2 years of High School, and during that time, we took two trips to Canada. The first, we went to Hull. The second, to Montreal and Quebec City.
During the first, a rather amusing incident happened. As it was the first year we had taken French, we had a rather poor grasp of the language. About half way through the day, one of the members of my class took it upon himself to go speak to some kids from the area in French. If I remember correctly, they then took that opportunity to make fun of him in both French and English.
The second trip, I think I actually encountered more things in English than in French, especially in Montreal. The only problem I had on that trip was with an employee in a McDonald's in a mall near Montreal, but I think that was more of a matter of her lacking intelligence as opposed to communications problems (She didn't understand the word "Sprite").
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Oh, no, see, Stu doesn't like the expectation of people to speak English even in non-english native countries, so that means that it must be an American trait.
It's a new rule you know.
On a side note: I live in Northern California. I'm eating a can of Pringles chips. Everything on the can, save for the title is both in English and Spanish. T'wasn't like that 10 years ago.
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Originally posted by vyper
WHAT
THE
****
ENGLISH = British language. The yanks didn't ****ing invent it you tools - the English did and good on them.
West Germanic tribes did. so :P
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West Germanic tribes invented english as much as Romans invented italian, french, spanish, amongst others...
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Whee.
I thought modern English was invented by the Anglo-Saxtons, not exactly English or Germanic. And of course it wasn't like someone just sat down and said "Let's invent a new language today!" it just sort of evolved.
So the whole discussion is pretty silly. :rolleyes: Especially since English isn't all that elegant of a language. French, for example, is a lot more, hmm, romantic.
Except when spoken by snooty waiters. :p
*Puts on flame-retardant suit*
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
On a side note: I live in Northern California. I'm eating a can of Pringles chips. Everything on the can, save for the title is both in English and Spanish. T'wasn't like that 10 years ago.
it's worse here. you know what happened the other day? i was at HEB (it's a store over here, don't know if they have it in California, may just be a Texas thing) and they made an announcement in Spanish! completely in Spanish! i was so pissed... see what happens is the Mexicans swim the border, and then they stay in this country working and getting paid under the table (or they get a fake SSN, either one)... and then they expect everyone to bend to THEIR culture... to speak Spanish to them, rather than them speak English to us!!!
I've got nothing wrong with them coming to this country... really... it's part of the American dream. But part of the American dream is leaving your culture behind and starting fresh in America. and America speaks English, not Spanish. so they should learn English, not expect everyone else to speak Spanish to them.
I'm telling you KT, give it a few years, and Spanish is going to be America's dominant language... it will start in the northern states, like New Mexico and Texas, but it'll soon make its way up to California. because the Mexicans have on average, twice as many babies as the average white family, so that, plus the fact that hundreds swim the border every day, in a few years, whites in this country are going to be a minority. watch.
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Texas is a northern state?
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I guess they're only re-colonizing what was there's anyway... what annoys me is people like my Dad, who aren't particularly racist, but who seem to have this social phobia that the mexicans are taking over the city (which isn't all that far from the truth) and that all their children are gang members ready to rob the nearest white person in sight (again, not entirely true, but the majority of them sure make it hard to tell) so he's already making plans to move the hell out of here when we really do live in a semi-nice area.
He's just totally irked that more and more houses in the neighborhood are now rentals and mexican families (notoriously big) are moving into them. All because they are low income people who can't afford to to be there at all times, or keep things in check, yet support each other as a family (bringing in 10 people into a four bedroom house) and so on. Just because their kids wear all the latest **** from Achor Blue and walk down the street every day doesn't necesarily make them bad guys. I know there is a real problem out there, but it bothers me when my Dad stereotypes people like the folks who live two houses down from me and builds his whole fear of mexicans around them.
Bah... I have to get up at six tommarrow. ****.
Chrono: Southern. Unless he was talking about Northern Mexico....
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
Unless he was talking about Northern Mexico....
Northern Mexico
"don't eat the ice!"
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I've got nothing wrong with them coming to this country... really... it's part of the American dream. But part of the American dream is leaving your culture behind and starting fresh in America. and America speaks English, not Spanish. so they should learn English, not expect everyone else to speak Spanish to them.
WTF? So the American dream is that you can have freedom of speech, religion, etc, just as long as you give up your culture and assimilate into ours? :wtf:
And why, if there are SO many people who speak Spanish, does everyone have to learn English? Did Congress pass another law that goes against the Constitution?
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Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
I took French in Junior High and my first 2 years of High School, and during that time, we took two trips to Canada. The first, we went to Hull. The second, to Montreal and Quebec City.
During the first, a rather amusing incident happened. As it was the first year we had taken French, we had a rather poor grasp of the language. About half way through the day, one of the members of my class took it upon himself to go speak to some kids from the area in French. If I remember correctly, they then took that opportunity to make fun of him in both French and English.
The second trip, I think I actually encountered more things in English than in French, especially in Montreal. The only problem I had on that trip was with an employee in a McDonald's in a mall near Montreal, but I think that was more of a matter of her lacking intelligence as opposed to communications problems (She didn't understand the word "Sprite").
Really, Quebec french and France french are really different. They use kind of the same grammar system, but the words are completly different. Take brits english and US english: there's some words that differ, from times to times ( car park, I think, for exemple ). Well then, imagine that 1 out of 2 words are now different... Do you know what french did you learn?
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Originally posted by Stunaep
That's good. The overt americanisation of everything is starting to get on my nerves
Americanization? Why the heck are you typing in English, hmm?
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We have control of his mind! :drevil:
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he's been imperialized :)
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Nobody would reply to him otherwise, go figure :rolleyes: ( laughes at the irony )
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Originally posted by Stealth
Also, don't forget that most French citizens speak another language (English) fluently. That's more than can be said for Americans... if ANYONE expects people to speak their language, it's Americans. hence why they only speak one language for the most part: English
I said it before, I'll say it again : Only the younger generation (below 25-30) had an education that let them speak English good enough to help people. Unfortunately, that means that in most of the place you can go, thee's nobody fluent enough in Englidh able to help you.
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And to be honest ( at least in the classes I attended ), 2/3 of the studients didn't give a rat ass and are far from being fluent in english right now.
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I'm just so glad to live in Holland. Every person knows at least good English, basic/average French & German.
Ow, as a side note; The friends that went to France with me were English :p They didn't know any French at all. My vacation would've been a helluva lot better if i went with my Dutch friends :D
I mean, if a Frenchman comes to Holland we'll speak French to him. They won't EVER try to learn Dutch or even speak English. (At least thats my experience). At least the Germans try to speak English when visiting our country to buy some weed or to see the sea. But the French... Nope. I mean, if you expect others (foreigners) to speak French in your country at least try to speak our language or at least English when you're here. :ick:
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Fools all of you. Face it, the human race is arrogant. Everyone is arrogant! Everyone is spiteful! It's in our nature! We as humans love hating and being intolerant. It runs in our blood. It's why we always have had wars throughout history. So why are we having these discussions over things that have been around forever? Americans hate the French, French hate the Americans. Nothing new there...
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Meh, I'd be happy to like everyone on an indivual basis - but if someone is arrogant towards me then I'm not going to bend over backwards to keep them happy... they can damn well be treated as I want to treat them from that point forth.
You reap what you sow.
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The behaviour of people in a group is of a demonstrably lower standard than the same individuals when they are on their own. Same goes for opinions of behaviour.
I think you guys are all pretty cool. :p
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Originally posted by Setekh
I think you guys are all pretty cool. :p
You're a real suck-up, you know? :p
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Didn't someone try to "invent" an universal language some years ago?
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Meh, from what I can tell most people treat English or (maybe?) German as the primary language for international dealings... since many more people know it.
That said, I wish England would forcefully teach students other languages properly... I feel it'd help a great deal. It'd also help if other nations attempted to speak the language of the country they're visiting but nevermind...
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Originally posted by Kalfireth
That said, I wish England would forcefully teach students other languages properly... I feel it'd help a great deal. It'd also help if other nations attempted to speak the language of the country they're visiting but nevermind...
Send the kids to Dutch schools...
On second thought, don't. :p
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Yeah, believe me - you wouldnt want the latest generation of English children anywhere near you. Heck I can't stand most of them :p
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Precisely why I said "don't" :p
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
Didn't someone try to "invent" an universal language some years ago?
Well there's esperanto, but that's for retired people with too much free time on their hands :p
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
Whee.
I thought modern English was invented by the Anglo-Saxtons, not exactly English or Germanic. And of course it wasn't like someone just sat down and said "Let's invent a new language today!" it just sort of evolved.
Modern English is pretty much a Saxon linguisitc descendent, but the structure comes from West Germanic stuff (Frisan mostly). so you're both right.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
On a side note: I live in Northern California. I'm eating a can of Pringles chips. Everything on the can, save for the title is both in English and Spanish. T'wasn't like that 10 years ago.
it's worse here. you know what happened the other day? i was at HEB (it's a store over here, don't know if they have it in California, may just be a Texas thing) and they made an announcement in Spanish! completely in Spanish! i was so pissed... see what happens is the Mexicans swim the border, and then they stay in this country working and getting paid under the table (or they get a fake SSN, either one)... and then they expect everyone to bend to THEIR culture... to speak Spanish to them, rather than them speak English to us!!!
I've got nothing wrong with them coming to this country... really... it's part of the American dream. But part of the American dream is leaving your culture behind and starting fresh in America. and America speaks English, not Spanish. so they should learn English, not expect everyone else to speak Spanish to them.
I'm telling you KT, give it a few years, and Spanish is going to be America's dominant language... it will start in the northern states, like New Mexico and Texas, but it'll soon make its way up to California. because the Mexicans have on average, twice as many babies as the average white family, so that, plus the fact that hundreds swim the border every day, in a few years, whites in this country are going to be a minority. watch.
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Why did you just post the same thing...? That confused the **** out of me.
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Originally posted by Nico
Really, Quebec french and France french are really different. They use kind of the same grammar system, but the words are completly different. Take brits english and US english: there's some words that differ, from times to times ( car park, I think, for exemple ). Well then, imagine that 1 out of 2 words are now different... Do you know what french did you learn?
A really horrible mix, most likely.
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
WTF? So the American dream is that you can have freedom of speech, religion, etc, just as long as you give up your culture and assimilate into ours? :wtf:
And why, if there are SO many people who speak Spanish, does everyone have to learn English? Did Congress pass another law that goes against the Constitution?
yes. the American dream is to become an American, not to bring your culture and try to force it upon Americans. that's wrong. if you want to come from your country, and give up the persecution and style of living and whatever the hell else you're leaving, then be prepared to learn (or at least TRY to learn) a new language, and not expect the majority of people to learn YOUR language.
Well in America English is the dominant language... it's just that in the southern states, you're seeing more and more and more spanish speaking people, because they swim the border, get jobs in this country, and expect everyone to talk to them in their native language, as opposed to the country's... so i think, in a few dozen years, America's going to be a Spanish speaking nation. unfortunately (see my above paragraph as to why)
Why did you just post the same thing...? That confused the **** out of me.
sorry... i tried posting it earlier, but i must've done it as the forums went down, so i reposted when i got back home, and obviously it did work the first time i posted :p
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Stealth, the american "culture" is a mix of a lot of diferent cultures... that IS the american dream...
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Well, I believe that borders are somewhat of an oppressive measure, so the point is moot. Going all the way back to Adam Smith, freedom of movement has always been part and parcel of freedom of association and especially freedom of commerce.
________________
Two Pakistani friends move to America at the same time, and upon their arrival, they decide to place a little wager. In a year, which ever of them manages to become more America must buy the other dinner.
Well, a year passes, and they meet to settle the contest.
"I have a high paying job in IT, I drove here in an SUV, my son plays on the highschool football team and my daughter is dating American boys, lets see you beat that!", says one.
"**** you, towelhead", replies the other.
;) ;)
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
Stealth, the american "culture" is a mix of a lot of diferent cultures... that IS the american dream...
note, a mix of different cultures, but that all speak (for the most part) the same language. as i said, i've got nothing wrong with Mexicans swimming the border, trying to find a new and better life for themselves. i'm all for that... THAT"S part of the Americn dream. but to come to a country where 99% of the population speaks English, and then not ATTEMPT to even learn English, and to expect everywhere you go people to talk to you in YOUR COUNTRY's language... that. is. not. right.
you're coming to America, where people speak English primarily, have freedom of speech, religion, etc. don't expect everyone to speak to you like you're living in your country. you're living in a different country. speak the country's language.
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Well, as far as languages are concerned, most English students are extremely lazy when it comes to foreign languages, we really are appalling at learning them I'm afraid :(
And Kalfireth is 100% right about a large percentage of the current school generation I'm ashamed to say :( Punishment has been replaced by counselling etc. What it basically means is that if a kid walks in to class smoking a joint, he can pretty much garauntee himself every wednesday off for the next 2 months for counselling.
I guess I'm just bitter in my old age, but, If I'd said I had something like an 'Attention defficiency syndrome' I'd have got an hours detention and told to swap my 'syndrome' for an education, and the only 'issues' they cared about were whether you'd done your homework or not ;) The scary bit is.... that actually makes more sense to me.
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FYI, America has NO official language. Especially in big cities :nod:
but small cities are mostly spanish and english
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Err... yes it does... English... :wtf:
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Originally posted by Stealth
(...)come to a country where 99% of the population speaks English, and then not ATTEMPT to even learn English, and to expect everywhere you go people to talk to you in YOUR COUNTRY's language... that. is. not. right.
Originally posted by Knight Templar
Err... yes it does... English...
Bullsh*t
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_in_the_United_States
Originally written in the site above posted
(...)
some states, English, Hawaiian and Spanish are official.
(...)
The English-Only movement seeks to establish English as the only official language of the nation.
(...)
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
Bullsh*t
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_in_the_United_States
that link you posted... note how 10%+ of the population speaks primarily Spanish... i'll bet if you go back ten years, the percentage of primarily English speakers would be over 90%
I don't care if they all speak Spanish to themselves... i really don't, but do you think it's right to come into a country where people PRIMARILY speak English (the average american anyway) and expect people to learn YOUR language rather than you learning the accepted language of the country you swam the border to come to? i don't think it's right.
if you want to come to America, the land of the free and home of the brave and all that bull****, and you come to escape the poverty, political persecution, religious persecution, etc. and you expect everyone to treat you with respect and grant you all the rights of an American, but you don't want to learn their language, you expect them to all speak yours. that's an insult. and when people come up to me and ask me for directions, or locations of items in a store or whatever, and they come up to me and start going off in spanish, i want to slap them, because it shows complete disrespect. i don't care if they say "sir, yo necessito find el tomatoes" that's cool, because at least they're TRYING to speak the ACCEPTED LANGUAGE among Americans... the language that was established at the same time, and by the same people, that established the nation.
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How many times will you repeat yourself?
You should all talk Irokois anyway :rolleyes:
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Iroquois :p
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Iroquois son, Iroquois.
I would actually love to be able to speak an Indian (yeah yeah, "Native") tongue. Its so obscure, it like using code language.
edit: damn you KT, foiled yet again...
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Stealth...did you ever stop to think they might be more fluent in their own language, and so be more comfortable talking to people in it?
BTW, please clarify how speaking your native language is forcing your culture on other people.
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Stealth, you noticed the quotes I used from that article didn't you?
English is not THE oficial language of the United States as each state has it's own oficial languages, some of which include spanish. So you go to a state that has spanish also as a primary language and expect people not to speak it? Is that it? :doubt:
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
So you go to a state that has spanish also as a primary language and expect people not to speak it? Is that it? :doubt:
There is no state that has "spanish also as a primary language"... the only reason the percentage of spanish speakers is so high, is from the mexicans swimming the border. i'll bet of that 10%, about 95% live in the southern states, borderlining Mexico
Nico: Yes i repeat myself, because obviously it's hard for people to understand what i'm trying to say when they don't experience it every day they go out of their house.
Immigrants that come to this country, are expecting people to learn Spanish, rather than the Immigrants learning English (Ghostavo and WMCoolmon: don't keep saying "English isn't the official language of the United States"... i know that, but since by far the majority of people speak it, i think that people should learn to speak it...)
I mean, it's like a Hungarian coming over to the United States, and not learning to speak English..... expecting everyone to (or at least try to) speak to him in Hungarian. you see how stupid that is?
BTW, please clarify how speaking your native language is forcing your culture on other people.
by going to a state that's 90% English, and going up to a white American (who will most likely not speak spanish) and then going off on them in spanish, and EXPECTING them to know what you're saying and do your best to help them. you say it's not forcing the culture on other people, but i say, from experiencing it every time i go into a store or answer the phone, that it is. and you watch, 10 years from now, you look at the ratio of spanish speakers in the country, and i'll bet it'll be up to 20%. and it won't be because more americans are speaking spanish at home either...
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Must admit, I'd love to be able to talk native American :)
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yeah so would i, except that unfortunately when the british first colonized america, within a few years, the native american population dramatically decreased, and now is almost non-existant.
the accepted language is english. since that's the language the first settlers that most Americans descended from spoke English.
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I'll agree with you that the reason Spanish is rising so rapidly as a language in America is because more Spanish speakers are entering the country, and, I can sympathise about how paranoid it can make people when you hear people who you know can speak English talking in Turkish or the like to each other whilst you are in the room. Living in London, this happens all the time,and yet we also have trainees who have lived in the UK all their lives (about 17 years) and yet their English is terrible because their parents refused to teach it to them because it is not 'their' language. Considering they are in England, this seems the most moronic reason I have ever heard in my life :(
I'm no better, I can speak a smattering of French, and if anyone wants to know if I have a sister, or should I break my pen, I'm sorted in German as well :) I suspect to a large degree why the French try so hard to hang onto their culture, you only have to look for 5 minutes at the UK to see it :(
Yep, the British were good at genocide, that's why there aren't any native Tasmanians left either :(
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I wanted to learn German, but my school insisted on french, so i insisted on not paying attention, hence i got a D. Still, the french are just defencive of their culture, i don't think they intend to be rude, i always found it a pleasent place, i not my kinda place.
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Non existant?? no there still over here in Oklahoma
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Originally posted by Kalfireth
That said, I wish England would forcefully teach students other languages properly... I feel it'd help a great deal. It'd also help if other nations attempted to speak the language of the country they're visiting but nevermind...
They don't? Two foreign languages are compulsory here in Estonia. Often they are English and Russian, of course.
Oh the advantages of living in a small country.
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Originally posted by karajorma
It boils down to the fact that you should never assume someone is arrogant because they are French but that when you go to Paris you should expect to run into some very arrogant people sooner or later.
As opposed to?
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
Oh, no, see, Stu doesn't like the expectation of people to speak English even in non-english native countries, so that means that it must be an American trait.
It's a new rule you know.
On a side note: I live in Northern California. I'm eating a can of Pringles chips. Everything on the can, save for the title is both in English and Spanish. T'wasn't like that 10 years ago.
Oh, and I'd just like someone to sticky this somewhere, just so people wouldn't misunderstand me five or six times more (granted, I wasn't being exactly crystal clear in my argumentation).
I was referring to Ms. T argument which basically was stating "The French force their language on everyone else", by saying "So what, the US, for example, like to force their entire culture on everyone else". I wasn't referring to english in particular. So I can't articulate myself. Sue me.
I'm judging on experience
So am I. You want arrogant people? Come here to Estonia. Arrogance squared. Or better yet, go to Russia. Heck, half the people there don't even care whether you can speak Russian or not, if you look like a tourist, they'll have nothing to do with you. So why not pick on them, instead of the french, who have a lot of redeeming qualities (plus they are nice people in and of themselves)
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Originally posted by Stunaep
They don't? Two foreign languages are compulsory here in Estonia. Often they are English and Russian, of course.
Oh the advantages of living in a small country.
They teach English, German, French and Dutch arond these parts. All obligatory. If you're in the Gymnasium niveau you get Greek and Latin on top of that.
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Originally posted by Tiara
Ok,
- While I know most of you speak English, you refuse to. :ick:
- Everytime I walk into a store and they find out I'm a foreigner they get all cocky and distrusting. Looking at me like I'm a criminal. Wants to make me bash their craniums in. :ick:
- On the street when they hear me talk Dutch with my friend they look at us like we're aliens from Mars and refuse to give directions and/or answer any questions. They just outright ignore us.
- At clubs/restaurants/etc... The same thing. Arrogant,offensive and refusing to speak English.
Just a few points. And not just in Paris, I've had exactly the same thing in Marsailles a few years ago. Now, I've never been to the smaller villages so I don't know how people are there but city-French are a huge pain in the ass. I'm just glad I speak French else we'd be lost there.
I wouldnt do that...
- I can only speak English and a little Spanish...
- Everyone is human, everyone is equal in my book.
- Foreign Language speakers always intrigue me when they speak in native tongue. For instance: At home depot, some guy and his son were getting lumber while I was stacking up 2 X 6's, and I asked my dad what they were speaking and he said "Russian". Now, maybe its just me, but Russian is a badass language and I think it sounds neat. Same for Polish. I think foreign languages are cool.
- I dont know who these people are who dont speak English, but, they must be complete stuck up ass holes because I have never wittnessed that kind of behavior.
You say the French do that, when the French think we are just as bad. That is just to clear that up for us American peoples...
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well my father grew up in Portugal, and he said it was compulsory to learn two foreign languages in school... he did English and French, but he also studied Italian and Latin. so he speaks five languages (Portuguese, English, French, Italian, and Latin) fluently (the latter two he's almost fluent in), but most Americans can't even speak the English language correctly... that's a shame too.
The only time an American will know of a European or Asian country is if
1) they attack America
2) America attacks then
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Originally posted by Stealth
There is no state that has "spanish also as a primary language"
For f***'s sake READ!!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_in_the_United_States
In some states, English, Hawaiian and Spanish are official.
It's not like I'm making this stuff up!
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Originally posted by Tiara
They teach English, German, French and Dutch arond these parts. All obligatory. If you're in the Gymnasium niveau you get Greek and Latin on top of that.
Dude.... I´m learning Estonian, French, English and Russian here, and I'm already half-dead. What's the point in learning Greek? I mean Latin I can get, because it's the basics of all indoeuropean languages, but greek?
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Ghostavo: i can't think of any state where Spanish would be official, regardless of what that page says. if any state would have spanish as an "official language" it would be Texas or New Mexico, and i'm pretty sure New Mexico doesn't have Spanish as its official language, and i'm positive Texas doesn't........
it may be hard for you to comprehend exactly what i'm saying, since you live in Portugal, and aren't quite familiar with hundreds of people crossing the border every day and then insisiting on speaking their native language........
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California... we have more Mexicans than other ethnicities. Something like 48% of the state is Mexican.
Official doesn't mean it's the only language spoken, mind you. You can have two official languages.
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yes, but i can't see texas or new mexico making anything but english an official language... particularly with all the rednecks over here. possibly in california, because i know it's getting pretty bad there too.
as i said, i'm not one of those people that says "shoot everyone trying to cross the border" or anything, i'm all for immigration, it's a good opportunity for a person and/or his family, and THAT's part of the American dream. but coming to a country and leeching off its freedom ofs, and its economic system, ... you've got to leave some things behind when you move to another country. i know i did. and no one's saying "don't speak Spanish at all!!!" you can still speak your language at home, or with people, sure, but TRY TO LEARN ENGLISH, because by far the majority of the country speaks it, and ITS NOT RIGHT to expect everyone in the country to learn your language. this has got to be, what, the fourth time i'm saying this in this thread. and no one can say "your thinking's flawed" or anything when they've never been/lived in this part of America, and they don't see what's happening. in the end my entire family's going to have to learn Spanish...
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No Stealth, I'm familiar with turists speaking spanish and thinking Portugal is a province of Spain and mistake every single word I say for spanish, yeah... I don't have those things...
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Originally posted by Stunaep
As opposed to?
Going to a country and being surprised by how rude people can be :D
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
No Stealth, I'm familiar with turists speaking spanish and thinking Portugal is a province of Spain and mistake every single word I say for spanish, yeah... I don't have those things...
no. no there's a difference between TOURISTS and IMMIGRANTS... tourists i don't expect to learn a language when they come to a country for a few days/weeks... immigrants who come to the country, buy a house, and buy a car, and live here, i expect to learn (or ATTEMPT to learn) the language...
EDIT: Ghostavo, this is a bit off-topic, but i work at a Portuguese restaurant down here... and you'll be suprised how many people come into the restaurant and don't know what "PORTUGAL" is... you think i'm kidding... i'm really not. of course most people have heard of it, just don't know exactly where it is, but you get the occasional American who doesn't know what it is... :D :D :D. just thought that might interest you ;)
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I know most people don't know where Portugal is...
Stealth, the only way to make them "see" us is if you say "FIGO!!" (stupid, I know, but it gets the message past). By the way, I wasn't being sarcastic, although sometimes it gets a bit confused, sorry.
So... back to the original topic, can you get one map without... say... er... Spain?
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ROFL You're Portugese sure enough ;)