Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: Bobboau on July 11, 2004, 11:48:24 am
-
you may now worship me
-
Coming Attraction!
-
Interesting... to say the least.
But I refuse to worship false gods.
-
Looking good :)
But I already spend too much time worshipping myself, sorry :p
edit: There's too many polys in the engines if you ask me.
-
Nice :)
-
A new goodie in the next MediaVP, I guess. :)
-
Well, my time is free, so: "All Hail Bobboau, Our Lord And Master! All Hail Bobboau...!"
Only thing I can complain about is the side areas near the front of the ship. They dont seem meant to be divided into sections. As for the rest, see above :D
-
Very good! :) Now create some good looking textures for it because the original volition ones suck rotten eggs.
-
hmm, I thought the textures for that ship were some of the best in FS2.
the one thing I'm not to sure about is the thing I did on the upper part of the front section, it's a bit uneven, and I don't know if it goes with the rest of it
-
Deimos textures:
The main hull map needs to be more detailed and bigger(less texture repetitions, granted with only 256x256 max texture resolution it's not that easy), more metallic(the original one looked like rough plastic, nearly like some sort off brickwall IMO without any shine effect) and the biggest gripe: If you could see the spaces between the armor plates on a ship that big from a mile away in such an obvious manner, that thing would be ready to fall apart.(problem of almost every capship in FS. The Fenris/Leviathan textures show how to make it right)
Window textures: just slapping on some diffuse texture with some light blobs =:ick: But with the additional detail on you r model it will help to make the window rows look less like a mess.
-
I plan on trying an alpha blending trick to make the windows look like they have stuff behind them :)
-
*cues Mr Burns finger movement* Excellent.
But I was referring to another problem too: with just applying a standard windows tiling map, windows seemed to be cut off in the middle by other hull parts/textures. That looks truly awful. But I'm sure you take this into account.:)
-
Bobboau, this is simply awesome. :nod:
-
pcount?
-
I AM NOT WORTHY!!!
-
poly count currently in the 2000 range, I expect it to get into the 3,000s at least (not includeing turrets, I'll need to make a new turret as well naturaly)
-
bob, while I have nothing against the fact that somebody else work on the same things I'm already working on (I'm extremely SLOW and I couldn't grant when I'll have finished it), it makes me a little upset to don't get advised, since I hate to waste time. You knew that I was working on a deimos too, and if it was your intention to do the same you could have PMed me: it'd have saved me from wasting some time recently;).
anyway, getting to the model:
awesome result, althought I partially disagree with some choices.
The part that I like less is the bulky front ventral section. In my opinion it should have been something like the ventral section of an ancient galleon with a more linear and curvy designed. Well, in my opinion all the deimos is inspired by a galleon and I was working in that direction, diverging a little more from the original.
The extrusion on the nose is probably a bit blocky
The rest is pretty good;)
-
<< is impressed
-
Karma, why don't you both do your own thing and let the community decide which is best? Keeps everyone honest about their work that way :)
-
May result in competitivity between the authors.
-
Originally posted by KARMA
bob, while I have nothing against the fact that somebody else work on the same things I'm already working on (I'm extremely SLOW and I couldn't grant when I'll have finished it), it makes me a little upset to don't get advised, since I hate to waste time. You knew that I was working on a deimos too, and if it was your intention to do the same you could have PMed me: it'd have saved me from wasting some time recently;).
... I did?
:nervous:
Originally posted by TopAce
May result in competitivity between the authors.
heaven forbid...
-
Hey, fine by me. A little competitivity never hurt anyone. :D
What say this...the winner gets a barrel of Bosch Beer. We space the loser. Agreed? Good. :D
On your marks, get set, GO!
-
Nah the looser just has to greeble the hi-poly version of the Sathanas. :drevil:
-
would anyone object to me adding geometry for a fighter bay?
-
we'd probably kiss you instead... LM certainly would I suspect.
*waits for peanuts to come*
-
eh, I'll add it later
-
I didn't think the Deimos HAD a fighterbay...
-
It's great, but I have one question. Why does the aft ventral engine pod have a ram scoop?
-
becase it looks cool :)
and it doesn't have a fighter bay, but it has been sudjested a few times and could be helpfull to homesick (ect)
-
Originally posted by WMCoolmon
I didn't think the Deimos HAD a fighterbay...
It doesn't in vanilla fs2 but we've seen Corvettes operating independently in contested systems in fs2 that it'd make sense to allow it storage area for a small escort contingent.
Or that's my logic anyway.
-
Have we actually "seen" them? I'm thinking that there might be versions modified with a fighterbay that sacrifice weapons/engine power for a fighterbay and all the supplies required for it.
-
nm
-
Noooooo! While a fighterbay would be cool, I'm loathe to let you screw with canon :D. I'd do a version with, and a version without. I've got some plans for a Deimos carrier variant, which I aim to do when I actually learn how to make models ( :nervous: ), but it changes it fairly drastically (it'll look like it's pregnant). If you're gonna do it, make it very small, so it's more of a cargo/shuttle bay that can be used for fighters if need be. :) I think anything more than 2 wings would be too much for the Deimos in it's standard form.
-
Originally posted by Bobboau
would anyone object to me adding geometry for a fighter bay?
Do what you want :)
That makes me think...
"goes to change his sig"
-
I'm going to make the ubberized cannon one first, then make a fighter bay variant
-
The problem is the Deimos was designed to virtually replace the destroyer in combat to allow the larger ship to not be put at risk. To make room for a fighterbay and all that goes with it(it's not just a hole to stash fighters in, there's ordinance, support crew to house and feed) alot of what was previously power generation and heat sinks for the cannons, as well as the cannon mechanisms themselves would have to go to make room for all the extra crap a fighter bay brings to a ship. So I have to vote no on a fighterbay equipped Deimos, maybe you could do a variant and call it the Aegyptus or something.
-
Bob, is the man!!!
This is great!!!!!!!!!:) :D ;) :eek: *passes out*
-
Originally posted by Liberator
The problem is the Deimos was designed to virtually replace the destroyer in combat to allow the larger ship to not be put at risk. To make room for a fighterbay and all that goes with it(it's not just a hole to stash fighters in, there's ordinance, support crew to house and feed) alot of what was previously power generation and heat sinks for the cannons, as well as the cannon mechanisms themselves would have to go to make room for all the extra crap a fighter bay brings to a ship. So I have to vote no on a fighterbay equipped Deimos, maybe you could do a variant and call it the Aegyptus or something.
Bah, if the shivan managed to put a fighter bay on the Moloch, I don't see why the Deimos couldn't have one either.
-
ok for the third time now, fighter bay version after cannon.
I've got textureing done, and have a version in game, going to break now.
there are some screwy normals hear and there, but nothing to be worried about, it's a side effect of me rushing to get it in game, no turrets, no nohting.
interestingly there's not even 2,000 polies, have yet to do anything overly experemental (like the window thingy I am going to try)
-
But the Moloch bay is puny. It's not really a practical method for carrying any support worth mentioning.
-
not to mention that the moloch is a pathetic excuse for a corvette :doubt:
-
Originally posted by Nico
Bah, if the shivan managed to put a fighter bay on the Moloch, I don't see why the Deimos couldn't have one either.
Why do you think the Moloch was so woefully underpowered? :D
I'd rather go up against one of those than a Deimos or Sobek any day.
-
Originally posted by karajorma
Why do you think the Moloch was so woefully underpowered? :D
I'd rather go up against one of those than a Deimos or Sobek any day.
Exactly, the Moloch can be pwned by anything above and Aeolus and severely damaged by a Leviathan before it kills it. The figher bay helps a bit, but how many fighters/bombers can you cram into a ship that size.
-
well they get 250 in a ship 3 times it's size, so I'd say more than we'd ever see in game.
-
destroyers are larger than just 3x. Id say maybe 2 or 3 wings in a moloch.
-
A destroyer's internal volume is 9x that of a corvette, not 3.
-
my point being destryers have an unrealisticly huge number of fighters in them so it's not un reasonable to assume that you could clame there to be as many fighters in the corvette as you needed for your mission.
-
Yes real freespace... Destroyers would launch 30 fighters and bomber wings at a time
-
You sir, are the man.
That rocks in such a way that I have trouble putting into words. So, who's doing the textures (didn't read the whole thread)?
-
That looks great Bob. :yes: :yes:
-
Cumming Attraction.
;7
-
anyone got in-game screenshots of that...pretty.....corvette....thing.......
*drowns in drool*
-
that model was barely in game stable, this one on the other hand is nearly done, turrets work and everything, do note the main engine and all the exsesive detail I added to it.
-
FFS....that's just beautiful.
Someone post ingame screenies NOW. (I'm at work and can't)
-
Rokay
-
I had a third one, but it got corrupted. Ah well.
-
Originally posted by Bobboau
that model was barely in game stable, this one on the other hand is nearly done, turrets work and everything, do note the main engine and all the exsesive detail I added to it.
I like how the pipes and such in the engine disappear when its disabled. Awesome piece of work, bobboau
-
Love it!:yes: :)
Some (really bad) screenies (http://www.xs4all.nl/~joost5/screenies/)
-
It really does look good ingame :yes:
-
nice one bob.
-
Really good work Bob :yes:
-
WOW!
-
The ridges are a bit too pronounced, not what it should look like at all. The sides of the diemos was meant to be smooth, not ridged like that. Otherwise, it seems.........dunno, odd. An improvement, definately, but a rather...odd improvement.
I'll take some before and after pics now.
-
:eek2: :eek2:
edit: Whats next Bob.?
-
The before:
(http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/diemos1-4.jpg)
(http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/diemos1-3.jpg)
(http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/diemos1-2.jpg)
(http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/diemos1.jpg)
After shots coming up ;7
-
Ze...after....
(http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/diemos2-8.jpg)
(http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/diemos2-7.jpg)
(http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/diemos26.jpg)
A close up of the new turrets. let the beams begin:
(http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/diemos2-4.jpg)
(http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/diemos2-3.jpg)
(http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/diemos2-2.jpg)
(http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/diemos2-5.jpg)
(http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/diemos26.jpg)
(http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/diemos2.jpg)
-
Heh. Well, I don't know what your aim was, but you just convinced me to DL it... :p
-
Looks great Singh, but...why is the ambient lighting blue?
-
Very nice. But it makes the ugly thruster bug even more apparent (as the rest gets looking better and better).
[rant]
SOMEONE GET THAT BUG FIXED DAMN IT *breaks down crying* :(
[/rant]
That's really one of the last steps towards visual excellence (TM).
-
What thruster bug are you talking about? It looks fine to me.
-
That looks great! :)
-
A case when increasing the pcount is really worth. It is apparently better. Your Hercules Mk I did not make much difference between the lower-poly and the high-poly versions.
-
:eek::jaw:
My god. It's beautiful. Fantastic work! :yes:
-
to fix that thruster bug we're probly goiong to need to use volumetrics
and I'm not done BTW
-
Don't forget to add a nameplate ;)
-
:eek2:
Simply beautiful
-
that is very awesome looks very good
-
Can I copulate with it now?
-
Your on going sexual desire towards Freespace Ships is growing more disturbing by the day KT... I mean, it's been going on just a little too long... :nervous:
On a totally unrelated topic - Singh, what scale numbers do you put your nebulae at? I kjeep mine at 3x3 and I never get as cool a BG as you seem to get before I run out of background bitmaps.
-
Dude, look at it. It's hot!
-
This is one of the best-looking FS2-work I've ever seen. Partial reason may be that it has always been my favorite FS2 capship. :)
-
Originally posted by Knight Templar
Can I copulate with it now?
If you only knew how much time I was laughing on this one. . . :D
-
Originally posted by Bobboau
to fix that thruster bug we're probly goiong to need to use volumetrics
and I'm not done BTW
no, we wont need to. Theres like dozens of workarounds; I daresay.
-
Originally posted by Singh
The ridges are a bit too pronounced, not what it should look like at all. The sides of the diemos was meant to be smooth, not ridged like that...
^ :yes:
Those ridges, IMHO, change it too much. There weren't any such things in the textures, nor do I remember anything indicating they should be there.
Plus I just don't like the way they look...too abrupt.
-
I love the ridges, they make it look... I like them :D
-
yeah, who said it has to be 100% accurate. I personally like the little touches, I hope every hi-poly ship looks that good. It looks better with the ridges, because thats one of the places where the detail is most visible.
-
I'd add a little detail onto the bottom of the ridges section. As it is, it seems like you have all of this detail and then *bam* a big flat plane.
Maybe smooth the corners off there a little bit or something, make it less harsh of a transition. It makes sense for the area to be flat because of the engine, but something is needed...
-
I implemented my idea for alpha blended windows, tell me if you think it was a good idea, the idea was to have some stuff behind the windows, but nothing too complicated, just enough detail that if you looked at them you could see some paralax with something behind them, the light comeing out still glares out all detail, if someone has an interior texture that they think would work good here give it a shot.
-
I'll give it a whirl when I get back later.
-
Originally posted by Black Wolf
On a totally unrelated topic - Singh, what scale numbers do you put your nebulae at? I kjeep mine at 3x3 and I never get as cool a BG as you seem to get before I run out of background bitmaps.
You keep yours just at 3x3? O_o
Mine normally range from 4x4-6x6. All the ugly spots that show up are covered by smaller, pretty looking whisps :)
-
Originally posted by WMCoolmon
^ :yes:
Those ridges, IMHO, change it too much. There weren't any such things in the textures, nor do I remember anything indicating they should be there.
Plus I just don't like the way they look...too abrupt.
Please, enlighten me: what WAS on the textures save for blury squares?
-
yeah that part of the hull was covered by thick metal plates, I just changed the order of it slightly to make it a bit more regular and greebleable. all it does is add detail, and IMO it doesn't alter the ship's visual presence. that part of the hull had nothing but a tiled map, this leaves a lot of room for artistic lisense
-
Well, I'm going to try it in-game before being completely sure. But...
Before the Deimos looked very sleek and tough; this one just looks tough. It doesn't flow any more; looking at it from an air resistance point of view, or any sort of friction, the edges just beg to be rounded off and the earlier design would've looked much better.
It looks more like a beefed-up variant of a Deimos than the Deimos itself.
-
Of course it looked sleek: it was all flat with it's 10 polys per side. And what should I say about looking at it from an air resistance point of view? A spaceship? :p
-
This is a proper war-fightin' Deimos
-
Dude, that is sweet and a half. Can't wait till you're done. :)
-
Yeah, it definitely looks tougher now, due to the side plates. And as Bob. mentioned, its adds detail.
-
Really, my only grip is that you reused the original tiled maps. You really should make custom, non tiled maps for it, coz those really ruin it.
-
I really don't thinks so... I know you are tired of the old :V: maps, but that is not the best idea for canon ships :doubt:
-
To be more exact, it is not the best idea for canon large ships. Remember that fighters are bombers are being reskined. (Thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,23567.0.html))
-
I absolutely agree with nico...althought the idea of skinning such big ships cause me some gastric problems. A mix of the two strategyes would be the best probably.
And surely almost all the new high poly capships have to be re-uvmapped somewhat...
the original texturing job of the capships is just ridiculous imho
-
I could prove that it's completly doable, with a single map, to skin very large models with really accurate maps, but I'd have to kill you after showing you :p
JdJt: about canon, well, check my sig for my stance on the subject :p
-
Remember single maps on high-poly ships = woefully large system overheads, especially if you want ones which aren't horribly blurred at point blank range
-
Untrue - the less maps on a HTL model the better. Ideally, you'd only have one map per ship.
Unless you are truly l337...then One map per multiple ships!!!!11one :p
-
Pain in the arse, tho. Working on 3 2048*2048 maps (actually, it's 3 for ease of UV-ing the damn thing (http://www.aldo14.f2s.com/images/temp/invincible.jpg) , and that's excluding the turret maps takes AGES, and even then there's a bit of resolution loss compared to tiled (albeit with much better detail).
-
You'd need something like a 4096^2 map to do that lovely Deimos justice though, that's my point...
-
I think the Deimos looks fine with the tiled maps, its really barely even noticeable. Other ships, like the Orion or Hecate for example, might be worth the performance hit, since they could be susbstaintially improved by using a single map, but for the Deimos...I don't know....
-
Originally posted by SadisticSid
Remember single maps on high-poly ships = woefully large system overheads, especially if you want ones which aren't horribly blurred at point blank range
uh, this is so wrong I had to quote you and tell you that is the opposite of reality, fewer textures == one render pass (wich is actualy 3 render passes) == much faster.
the problem is one testure will be extreemly un detailed and blury, there is a safe middle ground that I have yet to see implemented useing alpha blending to have a single UV map drawen over the tiled textures
-
Originally posted by Rictor
I think the Deimos looks fine with the tiled maps, its really barely even noticeable. Other ships, like the Orion or Hecate for example, might be worth the performance hit, since they could be susbstaintially improved by using a single map, but for the Deimos...I don't know....
In case of the Hecate, it would be better to reskin it.
But the Orion textures only need a bit of sharpening.
-
Originally posted by SadisticSid
You'd need something like a 4096^2 map to do that lovely Deimos justice though, that's my point...
No. A 2048*2048 is WAY enough.
Your point sux :p
"runs"
-
The sharper the texture the better it looks.
-
Yeah, everybody has 1Ghz ram, I forgot.
If you plan on flying at one meter from the thing during the whole mission, using such big map would be logical.
But since that never happens, and you're 90% of the time at a distance that allows you to see the whole ship ( and so can't even notice bluriness ), I say that a reasonably sized custom map is way better.
-
And everybody has 2GHz RAM for all the high quality models.
-
I have 512Mb :rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by Nico
Yeah, everybody has 1Ghz ram, I forgot.
If you plan on flying at one meter from the thing during the whole mission, using such big map would be logical.
But since that never happens, and you're 90% of the time at a distance that allows you to see the whole ship ( and so can't even notice bluriness ), I say that a reasonably sized custom map is way better.
You're the one who made a 2048*2048 map for a fighter........:nervous:
-
Yeah, I made it at 2048*2048, but the pof uses a 512*512 one.
I make big maps so I can have good versions for possible renders.
-
that + setekh + spire = eyecandy
-
Originally posted by Nico
I have 512Mb :rolleyes:
I have 128MB :D
-
Originally posted by Raa
I have 128MB :D
Same here. Guess one of the chips is loose or something, as I'm supposed to have 192...:doubt:
-
Strange..the Deimos acts just like my SDF-1...Chrshes the game...
-
Originally posted by Turnsky
that + setekh + spire = eyecandy
So true:D
-
Originally posted by Bobboau
the problem is one testure will be extreemly un detailed and blury, there is a safe middle ground that I have yet to see implemented useing alpha blending to have a single UV map drawen over the tiled textures
But how do you UV map that... and have the tiled texture? :confused:
-
Originally posted by Raa
Originally posted by Bobboau
...useing alpha blending...
-
That means nothing to me. Because the alpha blending would be applied to what? The tiles? So then you'd have the same UV being tiled?
I'm meaning UV coordinates. How would the game know where to put them? Unless there was a blank plane in front of what you were trying to teture that would have it's own UV data for it.
-
you that the hull geometry and make two copies, one you UV map with tilemaps, the other you map with a single texture, the single texture has an alpha chanel that shows were the tiled texture shows through. you render the tile texture frist and then the single texture with an alpha chanel wich blends over the tiled textures. giveing you large structues without sacrificeing small details and it only costs you one rendering pass.
-
I thought there were still some occlusion problems with alpha / transparency, though?
-
That's what I was thinking for it, too. Ok, Bob.
-
The occlusion problems with alpha transparency only occur when the main hull is supposed to show through a submodel (or vice-versa, can't really remember) so it can be gotten around. Wouldn't work for turrets, but then they are small enough to get good texture resolution on anyway.
-
Oh...my...God...wow :jaw:
-
to render things with alpha blending render order is very important, FSO doesn't currently do anything to ensure that render order is maintained corectly, therefore the modder must make there model with this in mind, it is up to you to make sure that alpha blended stuff is rendered after the non-alpha blended stuff. textures are rendered in order listed in the pof texture system, submodels are rendered in the order they apear in the pof, before the main hull geometry (wich is last to be drawen even if it's the first in the pof)
-
And how does one control the order of textures? Besides naming?
-
that's a bit tricky, you basicly have to be carefull in the order that you apply them, my prefered method would be to have the non-alpha one in a seprate subobject.
-
OH MY GOD THAT IS SO DAMN BEAUTIFUL! I MUST HAVE IT!
-
Not bad at all. However, I have some comments on it: I think making the corridor curvy eats up too many polies and it is not visible it was 'curved' too much only when you get quite close to it. When you do so, the FPS rate suddenly drops down. I think making that thing curvy was redundant. I am also unsatisfied with the details of the back engine. They should consist of fewer polies.
To sum up, the model itself is excellent despite some of its parts are redundant.
-
I forgot to attach a screenshot I made.
Moderators: If you decide to delete my post above, please insert its content into this post. Ta.
-
What are you calling corridor?
-
The part that connects the engine part with the nose.
-
This:
-
Ok, I have been like totally out of POF design for about 2 years. What program do you use for POF design. Its it still truespace?
-
Yep, still TS.
-
ok, I was just wondering because Truespace just seems so frustrating to me. As a matter of fact Im going to go experiment some now. I gave up on it two years ago but 2 years is a long time and I think I might be slightly more inclined to learn.
-
Although, it differs all throught the community. Some prefer an other 3D modelling programme, but for building up the hiearchy, TrueSpace is essential.
-
Originally posted by TopAce
for building up the hiearchy, TrueSpace is essential.
For my greatest frustration.
-
Originally posted by Nico
For my greatest frustration.
A modeller like you JUST can survive some minuies with TrueSpace to build up the Hiearchy. Does it mess up your models?
-
Not necessarily (provided you merged overlapping verts in conversion from 3ds) but the free version does not natively support smoothgroups or complex mappings, and is a general pain to work with no matter how you cut it.
-
That Daimos is the reason most of my campaigns fleet with be made of corvettes.... ;7
-
well what if I do the same thing to an Orion or something, I actualy have parts of and ubberized Orion, Hecate, Dragon, and... something else I can't remember...
-
*passes out*...*bump*
-
Originally posted by Bobboau
well what if I do the same thing to an Orion or something, I actualy have parts of and ubberized Orion, Hecate, Dragon, and... something else I can't remember...
DUDE, THAT WOULD BE SO TIGHT! It would give me (and prolly everyone else) a whole new reason to play Freespace 2.
-
In my opinion, the Orion only needs texture sharpening.
-
The orion needs to be scrapped. :doubt:
-
Originally posted by TopAce
A modeller like you JUST can survive some minuies with TrueSpace to build up the Hiearchy. Does it mess up your models?
No, I can't, TS gives me erupting acnea when I launch it ( that's why it's been gone from my HD for... yeah, years ). I hate that hierarchy thing, that light gluing crap, everything. Tried many times, followed tutorials, could never get a single turret to work. Swore on my left small toe that I'd never touch TS again :p
-
Hierarchy is A-1 Simple!
-
For the love of god, GIVE ME AN UBER-HECATE! I WILL LOVE YOU FOEVA! :D :D :D :D :D
-
Originally posted by MatthewPapa
Ok, I have been like totally out of POF design for about 2 years. What program do you use for POF design. Its it still truespace?
Ignore the Truespace using Heretics. 3DS Max all the way. Much easier to use/understand the layout of.
-
ARGH! I knew I would mispell 'Hierarchy!' :shaking:
-
I think the orion is the one that needs a rework above all others, I'd like to do an hecate too but I won't have time for a while. Oh and there's the colossus too.
TS hierachy is pretty simple, but you need to have either trueview or TS 5 or higher or it is a PITA. Turretts are another matter, I never got one too but in my case it is probably lack of willing since I never really tryed:p
-
We need to remake all the capships so newbies will have some eye candy in their first missions! ;7
-
The Deimos is enough for that :) Maybe the Hatshepsut too :)
-
Don't forget the Myrm, and the high poly Herc.
-
Hatshepsut... right. I don't think there'll be any vollunteers for that Ship. Man it'd be a nightmare to greeble.
-
It needs no greebling. It would need to be made more curvy.
-
Would need those plates modelled imho.