Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: Cetanu on July 18, 2004, 09:01:34 am
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A simple Fs2.exe with the old engine
- all the new enhanced visual stuff disabled
- BUT with Kazans multi support, the new sexps, etc.
Why?
I use still a V5500 (yes, I love that classic) and vanilla Fs2 ran pretty stable and fast on it, I can't say the same of the new engine...
I don't care at all for shine or glow or whatever feature there is now possible, I simply want to play this game with my mates online. In ancient times I had all settings on low to get more speed in Quake multi... that should tell enough :D
well, and finally I want to play my now "valid" missions, took me some years to see that happening...
thx, for any reply there may be
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Isn't it possible to turn off all the features in the launcher?
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It is, but there still are issues with speed then.
Dunno if this is even possible, because of all the new SEXPS and stuff. Perhaps the old render engine can be put back in, but I am not sure.
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I tried that already, even with -nohtl
- the new clients crash right away (while loading a mission or when you enter it)
- only working version I found so far (above 3.6) fs2_open_C06222004 doesn't crash, but framerates are sub-playable and lightyears from the vanilla engine
I just hope that common sense prevented the deletion of the old engine from the SCP files, so that a "downgraded" client is still possible to do
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Probably possible, but hard.
Would require going thru CVS and all the changes.
Find someone who knows C++ and is willing to spend some time, and I will give him or her everything they need to do it. All the old code is there, we have everything from the start of the project. Someone will have to look thru it and determine if that probable is a likely.
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Well, since I have no one knowing C++ at hand I am doomed then...
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well we still have the origonal code, if there was enough demand I supose we could dp this.
but it woud take quite a bit of demand.
did you say you were useing a voodoo card?
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Originally posted by Cetanu
A simple Fs2.exe with the old engine
- all the new enhanced visual stuff disabled
- BUT with Kazans multi support, the new sexps, etc.
Why?
I use still a V5500 (yes, I love that classic) and vanilla Fs2 ran pretty stable and fast on it, I can't say the same of the new engine...
I don't care at all for shine or glow or whatever feature there is now possible, I simply want to play this game with my mates online. In ancient times I had all settings on low to get more speed in Quake multi... that should tell enough :D
well, and finally I want to play my now "valid" missions, took me some years to see that happening...
thx, for any reply there may be
I second this as well. Anything to up me FPS :p
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Originally posted by Bobboau
did you say you were useing a voodoo card?
yes
the vanilla render engine allowed 4x Antialiasing what made 640x480 already a beauty - I never liked the tiny texts or small HUD graphics of 1024x... :)
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I could imagine that a couple of people with older systems would like to be able to play Freespace 2 Net and newest mods, which make use of new SEXPs and other new features
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Find me folks to help do this. The people currently working on the SCP have quite a bit to work on as it is.
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I nominate taylor. :D
Seriously, I'd really like this too. I'm willing to help out with this in any way I can (short of actually code it... the graphics engine is not in my area of expertise :().
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I think too that you should study an fps friendly version for multiplayer, but I'm not sure if you should use a non HTL version...Wouldn't be there problems with the pof limits of the new ships? and wouldn't be an HTL engine faster than a non HTL version anyway, once disabled all the features?
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I do agree with Cetanu. ! ! !
All of the new features of the SCP may be great, however,.....
If the Pilots that flew FS2 are not able to fly with the same hardware and configurations we all are missing a great opportunity for the entire FS2 community.
Without meeting this very Basic Necessity, (just only replacing the PXO logon problem / FS2.exe), is very similar to building a new road and only allowing ppl with a 2009 or newer auto to drive on that road. Yet another way to state this is to build a new auto that forces every one to relearn how to drive again. I do not believe this is a wise idea for either case.
Now I do know that there are many pilots from FS2 that are waiting to fly FS2 again…:
as it was with little or very minimal changes to their configurations. ( read that as programming NooBs). Most are not as verbal as others. many don’t even know of the SCP.
So to finish I do request that the SCP team address this fundamental issue. How to minimally bring FS2 back on line then integrate the extra features. This way the SCP team will gain the support audience that any team needs and the FS2 flying community gets more pilots flying quicker.
So Again, I do agree with Cetanu and ask how can the SCP team quickly and simply integrate what it has learned and provide the FS2 community with a quick, simple, and stable method to get as many pilots as possible flying again.
Colonel Crist-BDHR
http://165thbdhr.com
(http://www.165thbdhr.com/modules/Forums/images/avatars/colcrist.gif)
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Nice to see all the multi players appearing over here :D
BTW are any of you working on new multi misssions now that new stuff can be added once again?
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You don't have the mediaVP files installed, do you? Even if you don't enable any of the new effects, Freespace 2 will still automatically pull things out of the VPs...this can cause slowdowns since the effects/textues/models are more detailed. Plus, nothing besides mv_core should be necessary to get everything fully working (It's still optional, but in the newest builds you'll be missing the jump node... :doubt: )
You could also try disabling 'use large textures' to speed things up/ make them more reliable.
Personally I think it would be a better idea to try to work out the bugs with the current engine / optimize it rather than go off on a new project which will require constant maintenance to keep it up to date.
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@CC thx, for showing up
@Karma
Voodoos don't have HTL... so I asked politely for the compatible old render engine in the first place
Missions and ships created for vanilla FS2 don't need HTL either
Any problems back then had their origin in the network code, the PXO servers and the lack of support from (http://216.119.69.180/cet/volition.gif) in general
@WMCoolmon
tried all that, even with only the core.vp present the compatibility problems remain (see above)
Personally I think it would be a better idea to try to work out the bugs with the current engine / optimize it rather than go off on a new project which will require constant maintenance to keep it up to date.
Anyone wanting high-poly models and other eye-candy sure will need the new render engines, no doubt about that... I simply care for the online part of this game (last time I played seriously singleplayer was in 1999), that's why I asked for what was already in the original game before it got removed: the old render engine :)
@karajorma
I guess I would have more interest in creating new missions if I could play them at all ;)
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heya all!
Here is another FS2 fan. I was really happy when I heard about the start of FS2 Open, but I was disappointed seeing it not running on my computer because I also use an old outdated voodoo card.
There's nothing to add to what CC and Cet said.
The spirit of FS2 is not to have an up to date graphics engine like other modern games, no it's the gameplay, and for me this worked wonderful, using a configuration with a "less sophisticated" voodoo card.
I think, changing this programm is keeping the best of it (gameplay, graphics engine) and adding necessary (new) features (alternative for pxo support).
I would be glad if it's possible to create a back-to-basic FS2, so that the whole FS2 community will be able to have FUN!
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Originally posted by Goober5000
I nominate taylor. :D
Bastard. :p
Believe it or not this isn't the first time I've been asked about doing this same thing. Some have asked for getting this in the icculus.org code. It's on my rather long todo list so if someone else wants it I don't have a problem with that. Otherwise it will get done but there is no telling when I'll get to it. Before I even start working on it though I'm going to wait until it's been in full use for another month or two and Kazan gets any new problems worked out.
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Hmm? didn't bobbaou say, a long time ago, something to the manner of that HTL should be benificial even with non-htl cards?
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yeah, it should
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perhaps then, reverting 12 months of work for an extinct video card series isn't necessary. Maybe there is some optimization that can be done?
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Supposedly, if you don't use any of the flags and don't have any of the new files for the graphics and only the vanilla FS2 data, it should run in htl mode without the overhead.
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You'll need the new subspace node files though, or else jump nodes won't show up.
Edit: depending on which build you use.
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Perhaps we could clarify this document wise?
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Yet another multiplayer pilot showing up...
I'm here to support idea of SCP backward compatibility with old non-HTL cards because i have many friends with older hardware who can't run SCP without serious problems. So far i don't have any problems with SCP myself and everything runs ok, but i'm multiplayer pilot and if i can't fly with my friends then for me there is no point in flying SCP multi at all. :sigh:
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it's not non-htl that's the problem, it's non-directx8 compatable cards, like voodoos, that is the problem with haveing a card from a dead manufactuer, they don't update there drivers.
voodoo cards also have some fairly signifigent limitations that would hold us back too much, for example voodoo cards don't suport cards of sizes greater than 256^2. and maintaneing suport for these cards would require technical things like texture sections wich caused all sorts of complications and slow downs in the texture system.
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So in other words it might just be easier to compile the vanilla fs2 source with the new SEXPs/netcode?
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not quite true Bobboau - 3dfx users learned to use 3rd party drivers quite some time ago and I have no troubles running other dx8 games which don't exactly rely on htl...
Now I have tested the SCP version with the original ships and textures only too, it should run perfectly like the old engine since none of the signifigent limitations should be met - but it doesn't. That's why I think the trouble is the new engine and/or htl.
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I have a voodoo too, a voodoo2, so I know what are you talking about.
the point is that you are requesting an fps friendly version. Well an fps friendly version should use the HTL engine for the simple reason that the HTL engine is at least 5-6 times faster than the original engine in rendering the same things, even on non htl cards(!!!).
What slow it down are all the various graphic features and the additional artwork.
The voodoo problem is another matter of question.
Making a non htl version would mean mainly to build a specific voodoo version which will be slower than a fps friendly version and useful for very very few people.
Also, this voodoo specific version would probably be not compatible with recent artwork (mods) so its utility would be very limited: it would be just a vanilla engine with support for advanced sexps+ some features.
You'd be able to play new missions but you'd not be able to play with recent mods, and since 99% of the new camps/missions use or will use at some degree new stuff, then you'd not be able to play and take benefits of the new sexps/features.
If we are talking here about an fps friendly version, then we are talking about an engine optimization and a button in the launcher that will revert automatically your configuration disabling all the new artwork (I mean the artwork which replace the original) and all the graphic effects but still using the HTL engine.
If you are a voodoo owner, to play all the new mods/stuff etc etc you'd have to change the gpu anyway (as I should do for example)
Nonetheless it could be interesting to add multiplayer support to a fs2 version which use the original engine with the main bug fixed and maybe new sexps, for those who want to just play the original fs2 again since afaik there isn't pxo support anymore.
But this should remain a secondary goal in my opinion, since main support should be given to mods
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Originally posted by KARMA
...the point is that you are requesting an fps friendly version. Well an fps friendly version should use the HTL engine for the simple reason that the HTL engine is at least 5-6 times faster than the original engine in rendering the same things, even on non htl cards(!!!)...
Well, but right that doesn't happen: I get 1/3 to 1/4 of the framerate with the new builds compared to the old engine with the default vanilla FS2 files - and 5-6 frames/sec with loading stalls isn't exactly what I call 5-6 times faster then the original ;)
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
So in other words it might just be easier to compile the vanilla fs2 source with the new SEXPs/netcode?
Compile it, I try/fly it ... :D
Originally posted by KARMA
Nonetheless it could be interesting to add multiplayer support to a fs2 version which use the original engine with the main bug fixed and maybe new sexps, for those who want to just play the original fs2 again since afaik there isn't pxo support anymore.
But this should remain a secondary goal in my opinion, since main support should be given to mods
Your last line is where our opinions differ - but that's o.k. seeing where we come from: single & multi :)
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I don't think I can be any help, not with only the first half of C++ for Dummies read. However, if someone get's this working, together with the Knoppix/LiveCD version, this'd be great. We could play FS on old systems, like school and 'net cafs. Think of the potential of the LAN in your computer lab.
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Originally posted by Cetanu
Well, but right that doesn't happen: I get 1/3 to 1/4 of the framerate with the new builds compared to the old engine with the default vanilla FS2 files - and 5-6 frames/sec with loading stalls isn't exactly what I call 5-6 times faster then the original ;)
I made my own tests too, and with a matrox g200 12mb agp (not exactly a modern GPU, and a non HTL anyway) I had with the first HTL builds 4-5 times the fps I had with the non htl build of the same period (IIRC 3.5) which was already faster than the original engine, and I was testing stuff not optimized for HTL.
So as you can see the HTL can really give new life to older cards.
And I'm not saying that the future is in single player versus multiplayer, I'm saying that the future of single player AND multiplayer are the mods, and not the old vanilla fs2;)
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Emmm... just an opinion of old multi pilot. I liked it "as is" and don't want any mods (new missions yes, mods nope). The point of multiplayer is flying with friends, not flying diferent mods...
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Hmmm... This is a toughie....
It's a bit of both in my opinion. Playing with, or against friends is what multiplayer is about, I'll agree to that, but the whole idea of the SCP is to pull the Freespace 2 engine into a more modern environment, ships and all.
If this is cutting people out of the loop then yes, I fully agree something needs to be done, and it seems a lot of coders do too, but there will be compatibility issues, since I don't doubt a lot of new multiplayer experiences will contain mods. I suppose you can avoid that by only using games that are unmodded, but I think people would be missing out on a large percentage of the SCP if they did so.
Still, if it's a question of compatability in older graphics cards, my own opinon is that it 'might' be a good idea to be looking at a newer card, but it's easier to say than pay ;)
I can see the need, but the ideals of the SCP is for pushing forward and expanding the capabilities of Freespace.
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Originally posted by KARMA
I made my own tests too, and with a matrox g200 12mb agp (not exactly a modern GPU, and a non HTL anyway) I had with the first HTL builds 4-5 times the fps I had with the non htl build of the same period (IIRC 3.5) which was already faster than the original engine, and I was testing stuff not optimized for HTL.
Then I have to ask why it that doesn't work like that with the latest builds AND no additional VP files when I try to fly vanilla missions & ships & textures & tables & effects and no special effects turned on? :confused:
Originally posted by Flipside
I can see the need, but the ideals of the SCP is for pushing forward and expanding the capabilities of Freespace.
Expanding - yes, adding/building up on stable base - not cutting off the the broader base and go one way without looking back... the later is a typical company move I thought an open source project would avoid...
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Originally posted by Cetanu
the la[t]ter is a typical company move I thought an open source project would avoid...
um, we aren't doing it deliberately...
Until all the multi people started posting here, we thought everybody was just fine with the HTL upgrades and such. Now that we hear otherwise, we're discussing whether and how to fix it.
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well, I gave my vote when the question came up here - should the compatibility remain... guess I had bad luck with other voters... and most other multi-pilots never came here to the forums before: they usually played this game on PXO, so they are all a bit late now :)
but it works the other way round too: who knows me, who hasn't played multiplayer Fs2? I guess 1 hand is enough for counting...
edited: but that's actually not the topic I hope...
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LOL :D
It's good to see the multi-players turning up here though :)
If I know the SCP team, they will do everything they can to help you, they certainly have with everyone else :)
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Best thing, and the biggest difference, is if you don't like how we did something, the source is right there, show us how to do it better ;)
We are updating the 5 year old game. Find me a developer that HAS that hardware and I can arrange to develop for that platform. Unless you are planning on send me your card ;)
Here's another question: If it takes us 3 months to build a old hardware compatible version, and everyone except for a handul of people upgrade in that timeframe, haven't we just wasted 3 months of our time? We have lives to lead, and supporting dead hardware isn't the sexiest of ways to spend our free time.
Now before you get all irritated, I am not saying no, but, we're all kinda in this together. Like Goob says, you're here now, so we can probably do somethign about it. Just think before you accuse us of "making big company mistakes." It's not likely to win our hearts.
On a related note, if Cet's missions aren't currently validated, they should be.
Thanks ;)
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If someone finds me a voodoo card, I will do my best to find a machine to put it in.
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See, I plant a lot of smilies into all my postings so that no one ever feels attacked... written stuff can easily be read different to its original meaning - I guess something still went into the wrong throat, cause I missed one this time? :D
The "typical company move" answer was directed EXACTLY at the "moving on" posting above it - some form of loud thinking - it was not ment as a hidden attack on the coders here, o.k? :)
If I could code I would... but I know my abilities are elsewhere ;)
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well I found/find you extremely polite in your requests so far, if you want my opinion :), and I'm sure the SCP guys will help you as much as they can till a reasonable level, and probably over:)
by the way, to see if I correctly understood...
what you are basically asking for is exactly the old game with all the new sexps, support for multiplayer and, in a second order, without the original bugs and with some of the additional nongraphic features.
Is this right?
Because I'm not a coder but it sounds to me many times easyer to make this than making a vodoo version of FSO compatible with all the recent stuff.
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Find me a card or a guy with a card who knows something about code.
;)
It depends a bit on how much we removed. Alot of that stuff was isolated, it SHOULDN'T be too big a deal. Someone with time just has to do it and see.
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Originally posted by KARMA
well I found/find you extremely polite in your requests so far, if you want my opinion :), and I'm sure the SCP guys will help you as much as they can till a reasonable level, and probably over:)
That's what I hoped... nothing more :)
Originally posted by KARMA
by the way, to see if I correctly understood...
what you are basically asking for is exactly the old game with all the new sexps, support for multiplayer and, in a second order, without the original bugs and with some of the additional nongraphic features.
Is this right?
Because I'm not a coder but it sounds to me many times easyer to make this than making a vodoo version of FSO compatible with all the recent stuff.
You got me right... at the moment I (and some other multi-pilots) would be happy if we could play the OLD missions with the OLD graphics on the Fs2net and maybe with less bugs then the vanilla client had... the other "advanced" stuff is not mandatory... if at all I keep wishfull thinking for later... ;)
@Inqui
That sounds like getting sent on an impossible mission - unless Karma gives you his Voodoo2 :D
...I still wonder what happend to the latest builds IF the first versions of added HTL were 4-5 faster then the original engine... :(
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Originally posted by Inquisitor
Just think before you accuse us of "making big company mistakes." It's not likely to win our hearts.
If you ever have problems with Cet just tell me and i'll cool his head with cold beer. :D
Anyway... maybe i'm not the engine coder and don't know C++ but if you need help with web interface for SCP multi (statistics, pilot info etc) let me know. :)
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@ Karma:
Why so much trouble with compatibility, problems of voodoo with directx and so on??
the problem is not that it is quite difficult to add code for voodoo support, the problem is the replacement of the old engine by a new one.
Why adding so much new stuff? is it really necassary?
the most important problem was adding the new network code, right?
that's all what most of the fs2 player want.
sorry, but maybe the programmers overshooted the goal.
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it doesn't seem you are well aware of the advancements of the scp, to say the minus;)
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Originally posted by tom
the most important problem was adding the new network code, right?
that's all what most of the fs2 player want.
It is what most of the FS2 multi players want, but that is just part of the picture - multi is the primary interest of only a fraction of the current FS community (look at the HLP members, for example, not many us have registered at FS2NETD).
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Originally, the SCP couldn't be used for multi (at least pxo style). This is because the PXO code was removed when they handed it to the SCP team.
Most of the work was focused at making new SEXPS, features and graphics upgrades (and of course the big move to dx8 and htl)
Recently, there was work done to add in a PXO replacement. However, nobody thought that it wouldn't work if you turned all the flags off.
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Originally posted by Flipside
It's good to see the multi-players turning up here though :)
I agree. Between the multi pilots and rediscoverers due to the Derek Smart thing, it's like all of a sudden a bunch of newbies are appearing who actually know lots about FS2 :D
I especially hope Cetanu hangs around here more cause I was impressed by the FRED tutorials he posted and want to see more of them :D
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I actually want a playable FS2 without the eye-candy, so I can play-test my missions without waiting 10 minutes on loading time :p
That, and to play multi and blow up things and other people ;)
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Well, more experienced Fredders in the community can ONLY do us good :)
You guys are going to love the expanded sexp set ;)
The SCP guys are honestly doing their level best to give everyone what they want. Remember, most of the requests they have recieved have been from single-player mods that are housed right here on HLP, now that there are more people wanting to play Multi-play, problems are bound to come to light, which you can all help fix by reporting :)
Personally, I played multi-play once since it was added, just to test it, which has always struck me as slightly insulting of the effort Kaz put into it, but I'm not a multi-player, so seeing more people in multi will certainly help us fix these problems :)
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@tom
you clearly introduced yourself as former PXO pilot with that, welcome drunk ;)
@karajorma
you are 1 of the fingers from my counting hand :)
ah well, if this I-can't-play wouldn't spoil my fun somewhat I could actually start thinking about the next Fred lesson
@Flipside
Don't give up trying! It was the same back then on PXO - once you get over the first learning curve of multi-player that game really shines... but its addictive so be warned too, hehe :D
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I will Cetanu, I thoroughly enjoyed the game actually, even if I might as well have painted myself bright orange and written 'Target Drone' down the side of my ship ;)
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Originally posted by Cetanu
@karajorma
you are 1 of the fingers from my counting hand :)
ah well, if this I-can't-play wouldn't spoil my fun somewhat I could actually start thinking about the next Fred lesson
I look forwards to it. It may not teach me any new skills but quite often stuff like this gives me a completely new idea on how to do something. :)
I'll have to finish off MG or SoR and then I can start writing some of my own tutorials based on those missions :)
Originally posted by Cetanu
@Flipside
Don't give up trying! It was the same back then on PXO - once you get over the first learning curve of multi-player that game really shines... but its addictive so be warned too, hehe :D
I can see how that starts. I've played a few games on PXO and FSO and enjoyed it. I might have to start playing a bit more often myself :)
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As another die-hard Multi player, I support Cetanu's request (as many from the ex-pxo community).
Not for myself as I use and enjoy all the new features and graphics of FSO without too much probs; but I have a few friends and squadmates who can't play SCP because of their older PCs.
So a FS2net enabled vanilla FS2 or a FSO "light" version would be a great thing for them as an entry point into the SCP world :)
But again I can confirm most of the online players who can fully run SCP find you guys have done a tremendous job ! :yes:
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Hehe, I playtested the mnew nulti a bit too but I think I annoyed the veterans quite a bit in the furball mode and crashing into them over and over XD.
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I must say that I am very pleased at the entire Positive dialog on this subject.
I am pleased because I am one of the pilots that helped in the creation of many of the PXO Validated missions from Mission pack 2 and most of the missions from mission pack 3, that V never managed to validate. All of the pilots that took the time to download the missions AND the sound files will know who Cetanu and the other Drunks from the BDHR are. My little part in this creation process was to provide the sound files to the mission Director, Cetanu.
FS2 community cannot discount the skill and logic that Cetanu brings to the entire FS community.
Cet does not program in some of the other programming languages however, he is recognized for his skills in mission design and playability in over 90% of the later FS2 multi-player missions.
For those that are unaware of the original missions I offer a link where you may download them with the sound files and try these missions. http://165thbdhr.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=3
This I do know......If the SCP team can use positive feedback that ALL of us can gain from Cetanu and the other FS2 Pilots from the BDHR are more then willing to help and contribute.
I know that the work that the SCP team has today is EXACTLY what we as a community have needed for years. The foundation that you ALL have generated will again make FS2 the reason many of us love this game and are looking forward too again.
Now from what little I understand of the many comments, I see that some may feel as if there was as a mild attack on their hard work. This not intended, in fact far from it.
As a very brief point of view on the history of the FS2 multi-player community, The PXO FS2 lobby was a very busy, entertaining location for the global FS2 community. Due to reasons beyond all of our control, support for this area terminated. Now many of the mission creators, pilots, and FS2 teams have waited for the SCP team to do exactly what you all have done. That is take the combined experience of all that have contributed and reassemble FS2 as the open program that you have.
This is excellent !!!
Now the question is how to re-launch FS2 as FS2_Open without loosing the knowledge and skills of the earlier Pilots, Mission designers, Teams and supporters from all that know FS2 for what it was, while simultaneously offering the path to the vast enhancements that are now available thanks to the dedicated work of the SCP team.
I offer to the SCP team that there should be no reason not to provide a default Original-Like platform that services the original game requirements yet allows others to enable the newer features.
These are just MHO and look forward to flying with all of the pilots in FS2 again soon.
Colonel Crist-BDHR
http://165thbdhr.com
(http://www.165thbdhr.com/modules/Forums/images/avatars/colcrist.gif)
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I don't think anyone took it as an attack. Just as something that would be a pain in the arse to do :D
Oh and in case no one did it earlier
:welcome:
As I said before I'm always happy to see another FREDder :)
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Damn, I keep forgetting to beam people ;)
You know, isn't it time that plasma core went in for it's 10,000 light year service?
Seriously though, no, no offence taken whatsoever, it's not you asking for requests that irritates me, it's knowing that people want to play this awesome game and not being able to atm because it is a work in progress, and that makes me feel bad because it might put them off :(
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I don't know how popular this idea will be with everyone but what about a multi-only build. What I'm thinking is no jpg or tga support, OpenGL only since it can still support bitmap sections for Voodoo cards, no HTL, no DirectX for graphics or image handling. The build would default to multiplayer and give a "feature disabled" message if you tried to go single player. It would support all of the networking stuff, mods (assuming they provide PCX versions of all graphics), and all of the new sexps. Alt+Enter would switch between window and fullscreen and the game wouldn't pause or minimize when focus is lost so you could leave it running in a window in the background and still watch what's going on.
I just realized last night that my source tree has most of that in it already. It can build without HTL, with OpenGL only, without jpg or tga support and with voodoo support. I've also got a "feature disabled in this build" popup since it can build as a single player only version. It should only take a few hours to make the few needed changes and the same code would work on Windows, Linux and OSX. Memory requirements would drop at least 45% and maybe as much as 55-60%. Would this be acceptable?
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Maybe you could provide that alongside the full SCP as a 'Multi-Lite' build for slower multiplay computers. So people download the whole pack and can choose which Freespace they want from the launcher?
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Originally posted by taylor
I don't know how popular this idea will be with everyone but what about a multi-only build. What I'm thinking is no jpg or tga support, OpenGL only since it can still support bitmap sections for Voodoo cards, no HTL, no DirectX for graphics or image handling. The build would default to multiplayer and give a "feature disabled" message if you tried to go single player. It would support all of the networking stuff, mods (assuming they provide PCX versions of all graphics), and all of the new sexps. Alt+Enter would switch between window and fullscreen and the game wouldn't pause or minimize when focus is lost so you could leave it running in a window in the background and still watch what's going on.
I just realized last night that my source tree has most of that in it already. It can build without HTL, with OpenGL only, without jpg or tga support and with voodoo support. I've also got a "feature disabled in this build" popup since it can build as a single player only version. It should only take a few hours to make the few needed changes and the same code would work on Windows, Linux and OSX. Memory requirements would drop at least 45% and maybe as much as 55-60%. Would this be acceptable?
Sorry, but OGL only isn't a good idea, especially considering how buggy that is (it ruined my drivers last time I tried to run it O_o)
Everything else looks sweet though :D
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Singh, OGL should be up and running again in a week or two with any luck :)
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Originally posted by Flipside
Singh, OGL should be up and running again in a week or two with any luck :)
Thats what you say :p
This GeForce 2 simply ruins OGL. It cannot run it, not in FS2, not even in GMax, so I guess i'll be missing out on a lot of ass-kicking either way...:/
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Originally posted by Flipside
Maybe you could provide that alongside the full SCP as a 'Multi-Lite' build for slower multiplay computers. So people download the whole pack and can choose which Freespace they want from the launcher?
Yeah that's what I mean. I will just be a lightweight multi-only build that works along side of the full SCP version. Just open it in the Launcher and run it. It would use the same data files and everything but just be less memory, slower CPU and older videocard friendly. Both builds could be installed with future installers. All of the same commandline options will work but it would just silently ignore anything that it doesn't support.
Originally posted by Singh
Sorry, but OGL only isn't a good idea, especially considering how buggy that is
Since I develop on Linux I can only use OpenGL so I've done a lot of work to get it working better. If there are still bugs with it then I don't know about them so if you have issues please report them. OpenGL has the least amount of memory problems at the moment. The remaining memory leak issues seem to be in the D3D code. OpenGL can be built without HTL right now and D3D can't so one of the D3D people will have to fix that if they want and that's really what the multi people would like. OpenGL still has support for 3dfx voodoo/2/3 based cards and D3D doesn't so the D3D people would have to add that back. All OpenGL bugs that I know about were fixed this past weekend. And by the way, I use a GeForce 2 in my Windows machine for testing and only run fs2_open in OpenGL unless I'm testing something in D3D. There is nothing currently wrong with the game that would cause it to not work for you.
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Originally posted by taylor
Since I develop on Linux I can only use OpenGL so I've done a lot of work to get it working better. If there are still bugs with it then I don't know about them so if you have issues please report them. OpenGL has the least amount of memory problems at the moment. The remaining memory leak issues seem to be in the D3D code. OpenGL can be built without HTL right now and D3D can't so one of the D3D people will have to fix that if they want and that's really what the multi people would like. OpenGL still has support for 3dfx voodoo/2/3 based cards and D3D doesn't so the D3D people would have to add that back. All OpenGL bugs that I know about were fixed this past weekend. And by the way, I use a GeForce 2 in my Windows machine for testing and only run fs2_open in OpenGL unless I'm testing something in D3D. There is nothing currently wrong with the game that would cause it to not work for you.
hmm..which means I ought to give it a try again. Just very scared that once I install OGL, I wont be able to play again due to driver problems (what happened last time). Nevertheless, I trust what you guys are doing! :P
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Hmmmmmmmmmmm.. Isn't there some open-source OpenGL drivers or something that work better on some cards, I'm sure I had to use something like that on my Voodoo Banshee to play Homeworld?
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maybe I spoke too soon. It didn't crash my PC at all, and moved quite fast initially, but then this resulted from the main hall. This was using the new 07/20 build with the following command lines:
G:\FreeSpace2\fs2_open_C07202004.exe -spec -nomotiondebris -snd_preload -d3d_no_vsync -mpnoreturn -dnoshowvid -ambient_factor 75
(http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/buggyness.jpg)
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LOL I like the 'Press F1 for help' at the top ;)
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Ok, so there's like one problem left :D
That's a little worse than what I was able to replicate but it should be the same problem. I know what and where that problem is though so I'll update CVS after I get an hour or two of sleep. WMCoolmon apparently loves releasing new builds so I'll save that honor for him. If you are willing to try a build that doesn't have WMCoolmon's changes though PM me and I'll get you a link to try and make sure that it's fixed for you.
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Originally posted by taylor
Yeah that's what I mean. I will just be a lightweight multi-only build that works along side of the full SCP version. Just open it in the Launcher and run it. It would use the same data files and everything but just be less memory, slower CPU and older videocard friendly. Both builds could be installed with future installers. All of the same commandline options will work but it would just silently ignore anything that it doesn't support.
Since I develop on Linux I can only use OpenGL so I've done a lot of work to get it working better. If there are still bugs with it then I don't know about them so if you have issues please report them. OpenGL has the least amount of memory problems at the moment. The remaining memory leak issues seem to be in the D3D code. OpenGL can be built without HTL right now and D3D can't so one of the D3D people will have to fix that if they want and that's really what the multi people would like. OpenGL still has support for 3dfx voodoo/2/3 based cards and D3D doesn't so the D3D people would have to add that back. All OpenGL bugs that I know about were fixed this past weekend. And by the way, I use a GeForce 2 in my Windows machine for testing and only run fs2_open in OpenGL unless I'm testing something in D3D. There is nothing currently wrong with the game that would cause it to not work for you.
I thought that in OGL the support for voodoo2-3 was scratched many times ago.
BTW here are few questions [maybe stupid]:
you said compatible with mods as long as they use pcx. Ok, fine, but what about textures size and pcounts? the engine will rescale the textures? and will be in the non htl the same pof limits of the HTL(25k triangles, etc) and the same z-buffer?
Once you make it compatible with mods, why don't make it run the single too, with all the features/non original vpfiles disabled? It could be useful for fast model tests and it'll be vital for people like Cetanu who'll need it to test their missions. Or would be there other problems I'm not aware of?
Maybe an HTL-lite version would be useful too?
it *should* work many times faster than the non htl even for those who own a non htl gpu (it did when HTL it was implemented at least), only vodoo owners won't be able to benefit of it. Basically it should be a simple launcher button to disable all the additional graphic effects and all the new artwork.
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I never intended to attack the developers of FSOpen. I apologize if it sounded like an attack. I've great respect for the much time and work, put into this project to keep FS2 alive.
But what I said is just my opinion/criticism.
@ taylor:
I know, that means much extra work, but it would be great if you could create a build which supports configurations with voodoos :-)
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Originally posted by taylor
Ok, so there's like one problem left :D
That's a little worse than what I was able to replicate but it should be the same problem. I know what and where that problem is though so I'll update CVS after I get an hour or two of sleep. WMCoolmon apparently loves releasing new builds so I'll save that honor for him. If you are willing to try a build that doesn't have WMCoolmon's changes though PM me and I'll get you a link to try and make sure that it's fixed for you.
I will test it - about what OpenGL Nr. are we talking here ? I think 1.2 most 3dfx drivers can do, haven't found one for OpenGL 2 yet... maybe provide a link to that too? :D
I'm really willing to try an OpenGL version if I can't get a directx! I WANT TO PLAY! :( ;)
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Originally posted by KARMA
Once you make it compatible with mods, why don't make it run the single too, with all the features/non original vpfiles disabled? It could be useful for fast model tests and it'll be vital for people like Cetanu who'll need it to test their missions. Or would be there other problems I'm not aware of?
Well, I usually tested my missions in a multiplayer setup anyway - just hosted as a LAN game, if I didn't think it was already good enough for a testing with more pilots, etc
so... I would have no problem with singleplayer disabled - ok, can't see all the other mods (I liked the TBP racing...) but better suffer a bit then be excluded totally, no? :D
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Taylor: If that would work with all the FSO stuff, it'd be great. If there is any way you could also make an HTNL build, or an HTNL command line, it'd be even greater.
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Trying to cover everything at once here:
Making the build disable with HTL will make sure it works on older OpenGL drivers that don't support it. I don't care one way or the other whether it's built in or not and the command line to disable is still there if it's built in. What I don't want though is 4 or 5 builds that do basically the same thing but with parts not included. That's really going to make things tough to maintain. I have no plans to make a multi-only version and a single-multi version plus HTL and non-HTL versions of each. There should only be one lite version so everyone will have to decide what's more important. I alreay have to divide my time between the basic game, the Linux version, the Windows version, the OSX version, and the icculus.org version since I'm main person still working on it.
Being multi-only was just an idea to keep things simple but there is no reason it can't be single and multi. For those that would need this build you don't want to use the high-poly models. That defeats the point because it's going to slow down again and be unplayable.
Only D3D support for voodoo2/3 was scratched, it still remains as a build option for OpenGL and could be made into a commandline option. A build that supports both OpenGL and DirectX isn't impossible but you may have to wait a few months for that to happen. The OpenGL solution is ready now. If everyone can wait then I'm sure we'll come up with a better long term solution. Personally I'd rather that we just wait and do it right the first time. There are other ideas floating around about how to correctly do a SCP Lite.
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Originally posted by taylor
The OpenGL solution is ready now.
Where? :)
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Originally posted by Cetanu
Where? :)
In testing. I'll post a link later tonight.
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To bad I'm European... well, will sure download it tomorrow - you want feedback in this topic, per PM or per mail?
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Originally posted by Cetanu
To bad I'm European... well, will sure download it tomorrow - you want feedback in this topic, per PM or per mail?
PM would be best. If the conversation gets long we'll move it to e-mail.
In fact anyone who wants this build just PM me and I'll get you the link. This build is more to guage the response and be a quick (but viable) fix than anything else. I'd like to get a better judge for who is using it and who needs it than I would get from a basic link posted in the forum. It would suck greatly if many coding hours are spent merging the old engine back in and only a handful of people really use it.
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I'm not sure how representative this really is:
A lot of people won't use a build which is not yet looking like "almost final" - especially some won't try if the feel hindered. If I meet one who would give it a try, I can't give him a quick link without breaking your statistic, etc
On the long run such a build will sure be used by more people then those asking you now for the test version
Anyway, your work, your rules :)
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Originally posted by taylor
In fact anyone who wants this build just PM me and I'll get you the link. This build is more to guage the response and be a quick (but viable) fix than anything else. I'd like to get a better judge for who is using it and who needs it than I would get from a basic link posted in the forum. It would suck greatly if many coding hours are spent merging the old engine back in and only a handful of people really use it.
That's a good idea. Maybe we should post a sticky announcement saying a build is available, but to get it you have to PM one of us for the link?
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Originally posted by Cetanu
On the long run such a build will sure be used by more people then those asking you now for the test version
I'm only looking for about a dozen people to PM me. That they want it bad enough to go through the trouble makes it worth it to me. I want to make sure that the other developers don't have a problem with this as well. What to do will be discussed over the few days and this solution might make everyone happy, I just don't know yet.
I don't want to be a pain making people PM me for the build since I need people to use it but I just don't want to post it in the forum yet. After a few people have used it without major troubles and I get some feedback as to whether it's enough of a change to make it "lite" enough then it will probably be released in true public style. If a problem exists though I'd rather hear about it from 3 or 4 people who are prepared to test and give me feeback than 50 people who may not answer my requests.
There are a few ways to come up with a lite version but may require much more work and code changes than are really needed. If these current minor changes work well for everyone then we can make something official available a lot sooner.
Originally posted by Goober5000
Maybe we should post a sticky announcement saying a build is available, but to get it you have to PM one of us for the link?
I'll be sure to get you the link when I finally get the build fully tested. I spent pretty much all night working on Fred2 instead of on this thing so I'm a little behind on getting it to people.
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taylor: you're too good :)
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taylor
for some reason I can NOT PM you to request the info you offered.
I can Invite you over to the BDHR where we will generate as many PMs as you need or want on the subject.
Please join us briefly at http://165thbdhr.com
(http://165thbdhr.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/smokin.gif)
Colonel Crist-BDHR
http://165thbdhr.com
(http://www.165thbdhr.com/modules/Forums/images/avatars/colcrist.gif)
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I haven't responded to everyone who has sent me a PM but I just wanted to give an update that I'm working on one last bug. It's a minor but annoying graphics glitch and as soon as I track it down I'll respond to everyone with the download link. I didn't realize it but current CVS doesn't work very well in non-htl mode using OGL, unless you actually like crashes that is. Getting all of that fixed has slowed my progress a bit.
col crist: I'll try and PM you when it's ready.
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How is this project going on?
Some multiplayers, i would not say a lot or undreds, but "some", have trouble using SCP and so switch to direct IP games.
[DW]-Florian
http://www.darkwing.org.uk/
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I agree.....there are quite a few pilots who are having problems playing scp, and want to play old fs2 online. so for those, we play ip to ip games. but as we all know that is not the same as old fs2 used to be with lobby and stats. wonder if theres any advice for one in particular who has to use open gl when playing scp, or he crashes in game. Problem is all the ships appear black to him on a black background.....any help for this ?
DW-Suzanna
www.darkwing-squad.com
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let me play the oracle of delphi:
in the not to far future the solution to your multiplayer problems will be available...
why do I know that?
because I followed Inquisitors first advice here
so relax and cya on fs2net
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We're working on it. Slowly, because nearly all the programmers are AWOL/busy at the moment. :(
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These are some fascinating discussions being generated over this video game, and I am wondering if (V) is aware of the intense popularity? I wasn't around for those discussions when (V) first gave out signals it would no longer support PXO and FS2. While reading these posts, in addition to the numerous problems I have had using the SCP Launcher, I thought of some ideas which may help to alleviate our temorous situation:
1. SCP came out too early, somebody didnt consider the wide range of technology being used out there: for example the voodoo cards working on vanilla FS but not on SCP and in my case I have always played on a laptop which runs great in the highest definitions with vanilla freespace but not with SCP. Why not let this version of SCP run its course, while going back to scratch with what you've learned so far to rebuild a more stable platform?
2. The stats web site is great and SCP did a wonderful job putting that together, obviously some hard work was necessary to make that work....now why not use that same (C++?) coding to work for vanilla FS in using the IP connection instead of the PXO? (BTW I didnt realise it was written in C++, and I wanted to let you know that I used to do a bit of C++ coding, I also have some friends still in the business and might be able to let them have a look if someone wanted to send me ALL of the source code for FS.
3. And on a more personal note, I am having a problem with open gl mode, which is the only mode that I can stay on SCP and not crash. Direct 3D apparently forces me to get the boot midgame and I would not have a problem but in open gl all the ships come out black....Imagine black ships on a black sky...yeah...I cant see you, so Im flying and shooting by instrument only (grimace) and my squad mates are referring to me as the nearsighted hedgehog....so if anyone can tell me what is going on with that? I was never a game coder so I can only guess what happened there....
4. Good job otherwise, and if I offer my limited services in any way I can...currently between school and work I dont have much time, but I would like to have a look at the source code. Thank you for reading my humble post......
Poggle the Hedgehog
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1. that got already mentioned and led to locked threads
2. soon solved ... says the oracle
3. soon solved ... says the oracle
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Source code is freely available via anonymous CVS, have a look at the various getting started threads and docs :)
We're always looking for people to join the team.
No comment on 1), search the forums or argue with me about it on IM ;)
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Ferrium is the answer to one. And thats all I will say.