Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The FRED Workshop => Topic started by: Yoseph on July 26, 2004, 02:25:58 pm
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The Echoes of the Past, Visions of the Future website is up, with online encyclopedia, ship listings, timeline and more.
//www.cambium.com/eotp
And yes, I'm STILL looking for some support for the FS2 mod.
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Looks good as always Yoseph. :yes:
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I havent heard of this mod. Anyone want to fill me in? I looked at the website and Im still a little lost... :confused:
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It looks visually stunning, but I still don't think you're going to get an awful lot of support from the community for a campaign that's essentially based on religion...:wtf:
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Cool site :)
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Black, I really have to say I take offense to your premise.
A. Its not "Based" on religion. Religion is an element of the story. (Admited a nice chuck of it)
B. Then the community obviously hates Babylon 5, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, Battlestar Galaticia, and a whole host of other books, shows, and universes, because all of those have a deep inclusion of religion. (PS: I believe there's mods for all of those above listed universes)
C: Belief in God isn't tied to technology levels. If anything, that fact that 97 percent of americans believe in some form of God proves that, even in our highly advanced times.
If you don't like EOTP's plot, story, graphics etc, feel free to tell me that, do it publicly, even better, offer suggestions for improvement, but don't use some BS arguement that appears to be "religion is bad".
PS. If your refering to my note on the about page...I'd remind you that the same overall theme was used in several episodes of B5. I simply take it to the next level, and have people of all faiths working side by side.
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Originally posted by Yoseph
Black, I really have to say I take offense to your premise.
A. Its not "Based" on religion. Religion is an element of the story. (Admited a nice chuck of it)
The protagonists were forced out of earth because of religion. They allied together because of religion. They made alliances with not one but two completely alien races because they had similar religions (Which is completely whacky IMO, but I'm not going toget into that). You have a star of david on all your Blueprints. Your ships are named things like "Lion of Judah". That's based enough for me.
Originally posted by Yoseph
B. Then the community obviously hates Babylon 5, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, Battlestar Galaticia, and a whole host of other books, shows, and universes, because all of those have a deep inclusion of religion. (PS: I believe there's mods for all of those above listed universes)
Never seen B5 or much of BSG, but I have seen DS9, and there's a big difference between a spiritual race of oppressed aliens who worship technologically advanced aliens who exist outside of normal space time, and who are never treated as anything but aliens throughout the entire series.
Originally posted by Yoseph
C: Belief in God isn't tied to technology levels. If anything, that fact that 97 percent of americans believe in some form of God proves that, even in our highly advanced times.
If you don't like EOTP's plot, story, graphics etc, feel free to tell me that, do it publicly, even better, offer suggestions for improvement, but don't use some BS arguement that appears to be "religion is bad".
However, over the last several hundred years, we've seen a gradual and significant diminishing in the power of the church (Not just the Zoroastroan based ones either - pretty much all faiths have been decreasing in significance in peoples every day lives, with the possible exception of hinduism), and the strength of most peoples religious beliefs. Of those 97% how many do you think go to church every day, or even believe for any reason other than their parents told them to? Admittedly, There're still bastions of christianity andf strong faith, but it's decreasing with every generation.
Also, I suggest you reread my post - did I ever say Religion was bad? No. I never even gave you my personal opinion on religion (though I assume you've figured it out by now). What I said was that I don't expect you to get much support (ie. direct offers of assistance) from the community with a campagn based on religion. And I sand by that statement. Go read the (locked) religion threads. They pretty much chow the overall communities attitude toward religion (NB - I'm not talking about any individuals here - I'm talking about what I saw as the average views of the entire group).
Originally posted by Yoseph
PS. If your refering to my note on the about page...I'd remind you that the same overall theme was used in several episodes of B5. I simply take it to the next level, and have people of all faiths working side by side.
Once again, never seen B5, so this isn't really relevant to me.
Look, I'm not trying to knock your work. The models and effects are amazing, and I'm sure you've put a lot of work into the storyline and suchlike. But in my opinion you won't get much assistance from the community with so many religious elements to worry about. I think I'm right, I may be wrong. We'll have to wait and see, won't we?
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I'm going to use every power of self control I have not to lose my maturity with you, Black, as Shrike has asked as all. However.....
Originally posted by Black Wolf
The protagonists were forced out of earth because of religion. They allied together because of religion. They made alliances with not one but two completely alien races because they had similar religions (Which is completely whacky IMO, but I'm not going toget into that). You have a star of david on all your Blueprints. Your ships are named things like "Lion of Judah". That's based enough for me.
Point by point - Earth was taken over by a neo-socialist/communist group that erased /all/ religion, by force. Many examples of these styles of groups exist in history - Nazis, various forms of communists (USSR, China etc). The only difference is, this group takes over the world. So yes, all of the religious people who aren't killed, leave. That means everyone, including Dieists. As for the aliens; if one believes in God as I do, it makes sense that God (in whatever form) might show up and talk to the other races of the universe, right? Maybe that's a streech, who knows. That symbol if you look closely is a star of david, a cross, and 2 cresants and stars (for those of you who don't know, the symbols of Judiasm, Christianity and Islam, respectively). The one ship is named CSV Lion of Judah. The rest have purely secular names; CSV Saratoga, CSV Ark Royal, etc etc.
Never seen B5 or much of BSG, but I have seen DS9, and there's a big difference between a spiritual race of oppressed aliens who worship technologically advanced aliens who exist outside of normal space time, and who are never treated as anything but aliens throughout the entire series.
Uh, if that's your impression, you haven't seen the show. Because the last season is FULL of religious undertones, including episodes where Sisko becomes a prophet, and then dies and is reborn in the end.
However, over the last several hundred years, we've seen a gradual and significant diminishing in the power of the church (Not just the Zoroastroan based ones either - pretty much all faiths have been decreasing in significance in peoples every day lives, with the possible exception of hinduism), and the strength of most peoples religious beliefs. Of those 97% how many do you think go to church every day, or even believe for any reason other than their parents told them to? Admittedly, There're still bastions of christianity andf strong faith, but it's decreasing with every generation.
Really? I guess that's why the Vacitan is still one of the most powerful countries on the planet, and the Pope one of the most respected people in the world. Maybe that's why some 60 percent of americans attend church on a regular basis. And that number isn't going down - in fact, in light of recent events, its been trending /higher/.
Also, I suggest you reread my post - did I ever say Religion was bad? No. I never even gave you my personal opinion on religion (though I assume you've figured it out by now). What I said was that I don't expect you to get much support (ie. direct offers of assistance) from the community with a campagn based on religion. And I sand by that statement. Go read the (locked) religion threads. They pretty much chow the overall communities attitude toward religion (NB - I'm not talking about any individuals here - I'm talking about what I saw as the average views of the entire group). [/color]
Well black, perhaps I assumed some stuff given your tone, but I wasn't that off, now was I? :)
And you know, perhaps your right. Perhaps everyone in this community thinks that religion is a "crutch for the weak minded" and what have you. If that's the case, so be it.
And hey, if that's your opinion, make a campaign where the League of Sol blows away the religious folks. ;)
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Originally posted by Yoseph
Point by point - Earth was taken over by a neo-socialist/communist group that erased /all/ religion, by force. Many examples of these styles of groups exist in history - Nazis, various forms of communists (USSR, China etc). The only difference is, this group takes over the world. So yes, all of the religious people who aren't killed, leave. That means everyone, including Dieists. As for the aliens; if one believes in God as I do, it makes sense that God (in whatever form) might show up and talk to the other races of the universe, right? Maybe that's a streech, who knows. That symbol if you look closely is a star of david, a cross, and 2 cresants and stars (for those of you who don't know, the symbols of Judiasm, Christianity and Islam, respectively). The one ship is named CSV Lion of Judah. The rest have purely secular names; CSV Saratoga, CSV Ark Royal, etc etc.
OK. So strip away the history/timeline/whatever and it's the oppressed believers vs. the evil atheists. Even if this wasn't blatantly obvious, you then put Religious symbols throughout the art and documentation, and named what is as far as I can tell the main ship in the campaign with a religious title. I mean, come on.
As for the aliens, I see where you're coming from there, but look at your own examples. Judaism, Islam and Christianity - all worshipping the same god, in three completely different ways. And that's when you've only got one braintype to think. Aliens would think totally differently to us, and yet you think that religion, something that comes from some of the most elemental needs in the human psyche (that is, to understand the world around them, to understand why things are the way they are) would be so similar in a creature that's had a totally different evolutionary pathway? That thinks differently, that acts differenty, that sees and experiences its environment differently? That doesn't make any sense. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't.
Originally posted by Yoseph
Uh, if that's your impression, you haven't seen the show. Because the last season is FULL of religious undertones, including episodes where Sisko becomes a prophet, and then dies and is reborn in the end.
Err...yeah. Bajoran religion. Big difference. The prophets, the wormhole, and their link with with the Bajorans was the focus of the series. This is ligitimate and well trodden Sci Fi terrain.
Originally posted by Yoseph
Really? I guess that's why the Vacitan is still one of the most powerful countries on the planet, and the Pope one of the most respected people in the world. Maybe that's why some 60 percent of americans attend church on a regular basis. And that number isn't going down - in fact, in light of recent events, its been trending /higher/.
[/b]
50 years ago, not going to church was pretty much a direct cause of subtle social stigma. 100 years ago, church was a central part of peoples lives, and Social stigma took on a whole new meaning. These days, don't go to church? Meh, nobody cares. Atheism is on the rise, but apathy's taking off in leaps and bounds. I went to a Catholic school years 8-10, and in my final year the relgion teacher asked our class how many people firmly believed in God. 2 people raised their hands. Out of thirty. This is typical in my experience. I'd like to know where you're getting your figures from though - I'm sure it'd be an interesting read.
Keep in mind though, we obviously come from two totally different backgrounds, and from what I understand, America's a hell of a lot more theistically inclined than Australia. That's going to influence your thinking, and mine too.
Originally posted by Yoseph
Well black, perhaps I assumed some stuff given your tone, but I wasn't that off, now was I? :)
No, but you did manage to change the point I was making from "I don't think you're going to get much help with a religion based campaign" to "I hate religion and you're a dumb dumb". Kudos.
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Religion should be an aspect of a campaign, not the focal point.
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Why not? This is a different approach to campaign storytelling; I for one am interested to see what comes of it.
(Though I disagree that Muslims, Jews, and Christians could all get along in the same fleet with no conflict whatsoever. ;))
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You all "should" know were I stand ;)
I'm for it...
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Why not? This is a different approach to campaign storytelling; I for one am interested to see what comes of it.
That is true Different is good
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I was gonna say, who cares if its about religion? If you have fun playing it then by all means play it. Does it really matter THAT much to you where you would argue with the creator over... religion?
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Depends how much the "Religion good, Atheism bad" angle is shoved down your throat.
If the game obviously has an agenda then it's unlikely that I'd be able to stand it. If the religion stuff is just background then I'll enjoy it.
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I doubt he has his agenda at hand. Nazi's vs religion is not pushing anything on anyone.
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Depends on whether or not the game makes out that all atheists are nazis. Are there any atheists on the good guys side?
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We will just have to wait and see...
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I suggest that you all take note of the "Character Bio" page under TV Series. One of the lead characters in the show I have planned is an atheist scienist that creates some specific technology used on the Lion of Judah.
So to answer your question, no, in the EOTP not all atheists are bad. Just the ones with really big guns trying to take over the galaxy. :)
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Originally posted by Yoseph
So to answer your question, no, in the EOTP not all atheists are bad. Just the ones with really big guns trying to take over the galaxy. :)
You're saying i'm bad!? you little... :mad:
:p
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^ Hey, there's nothing wrong with outfitting an Apollo to carry a BFRed and going out and conquering the galaxy... ;7
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Originally posted by Yoseph
I suggest that you all take note of the "Character Bio" page under TV Series. One of the lead characters in the show I have planned is an atheist scienist that creates some specific technology used on the Lion of Judah.
So to answer your question, no, in the EOTP not all atheists are bad. Just the ones with really big guns trying to take over the galaxy. :)
In that case I have no problem with the campaign :)
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Your story reminds me of early MechWarrior games. The whole "Earth as a Lost Paradise etc" with factions attempting to reach it first. I didn't read all your text so apologies if I got that wrong.
On a personal note, I find too much religion tends to leave a bad taste in the mouth.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Why not? This is a different approach to campaign storytelling; I for one am interested to see what comes of it.
(Though I disagree that Muslims, Jews, and Christians could all get along in the same fleet with no conflict whatsoever. ;))
Yeah, what he said. ;) I'm keen to see what comes of this campaign, too. :nod:
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Originally posted by Goober5000
(Though I disagree that Muslims, Jews, and Christians could all get along in the same fleet with no conflict whatsoever. ;))
Well if you think about it all the stupid funementalists would have stayed behind to fight. Only the sensible ones would have run away :D
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We left the Wabaists behind, along with the KKK, and more rabid ACLU members :p
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Arent "Echoes of the Past" and "Vision of the Future" Timothy Zahn Star Wars books about Thrawn?
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Uh, no. :P
There is a book about thrawn that has "Echoes" in it, didn't know it existed till a friend of mine pointed it out a few years ago.
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Originally posted by Night Hammer
Arent "Echoes of the Past" and "Vision of the Future" Timothy Zahn Star Wars books about Thrawn?
The books are Spectre of the Past and Vision of the Future. I thought the same thing though - had to do a bit of googling to confirm otherwise though.
http://www.futurefiction.com/star_wars_by_timothy_zahn.htm#specter
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knew those sounded farmiliar