Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Striker on July 31, 2004, 02:05:17 am
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Hey Im kinda new here (been around posted only like twice) and that was a few months ago. Anyway, I'm writing a fanfic for FS2 and was wondering, what kind of fuel do the ships in FS run using? I ahve two guesses: either they run on reactors which generate the power, or they are still using much more refined versions of fossil fuels like oil or diesel or whatnot. Not much to pollute in the vacuum of space, eh? But anyway, I jsut wanted the guesses of all you guys.
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Dueterium I believe. That's what the gas miners were hauling on the way to the colossus.
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oh sorry didnt make myself clear. my fault. I was talking about the fighters, bombers, etc. I know about the Colossus and its gas (which im sure is probably condensed once collected into a liquid form). I assume that all capships are run that way. The opening scene is an NTF recon group thats running out of power, whether it be fuel or a reactor damaged or something. Yeah im that obsessed with detail. Credibility is key for fanfics.
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Originally posted by Striker
oh sorry didnt make myself clear. my fault. I was talking about the fighters, bombers, etc. I know about the Colossus and its gas (which im sure is probably condensed once collected into a liquid form). I assume that all capships are run that way. The opening scene is an NTF recon group thats running out of power, whether it be fuel or a reactor damaged or something. Yeah im that obsessed with detail. Credibility is key for fanfics.
Reactors. You can judge this by the fact that the weapons and shields recharge - the energy from oil or old fuels wouldn't be enough, and the amount required to power such a large (yes, the fighters ARE large) craft with such advanced weaponry would be only available from reactors like those on capitals (except, on a much, much smaller scale). Remember, fuel storage has to take as little space as possible - I wouldn't want my fighter stuffed with explosive materials :p
That, and in several missions it is mentioned that the fighters run off some reactors or power cores (especially in the last mission where one of the pilots mentions a reactor core breach before going BOOM)
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To be much more specific:
Fusion reactors.
Deuterium is used in the reaction, so either water or the atmosphere of a gas giant/nebula would work well as a source for this.
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I figured as much. Anyone care to explain what exactly deuterium is? Im not too good with elements so i dont even know if it's real.
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Originally posted by Striker
I figured as much. Anyone care to explain what exactly deuterium is. Im not too good with elements so i dont evne know if it's real.
Its very real. Deuterium is an isotope of Hydrogen, and is know more commonly as 'heavy water'. Its the stuff used in Fusion reactions on Earth and in stars.
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When a "reactor leak" or something of the sort were to happen, that would most likely be the condensed deuterium exiting its holding space?
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Originally posted by Striker
When a "reactor leak" or something of the sort were to happen, that would most likely be the condensed deuterium exiting its holding space?
you'll have to be more specific. It could just be a leakage of Coolant resulting in the reactor going critical. Or it could be the leakage of the fuel itself, as you said. Or the leak could refer to the other materials required to make the reactor itself run.
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well i think that's all i need for now. actually i have a second question. what consists of a GTVA battlegroup and a Fleet? How many of what kind of ship? (eitehr type like Cruiser or actual names are good)
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Originally posted by Striker
well i think that's all i need for now. actually i have a second question. what consists of a GTVA battlegroup and a Fleet? How many of what kind of ship? (eitehr type like Cruiser or actual names are good)
This one im not too sure of.
There are seperate terms used for a Terran, Vasudan or Joint Fleet.
A terran fleet will normally consist of A destroyer, anywhere from 2 to 6 Corvettes (depending on the importance of the system) a lot of Cruisers for support, several transports/support ships like gas miners and the lot, and most likely an AWACs ship. If it's a joint fleet, then double the number of ships.
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Thanks that works for me. I assume that Shivans have no known or set order, considering they are all just one big kick ass invasion force. Anyone know how the NTF works? Or are they completely ragtag?
Also, is there any sort of list of all the known capships in Freespace? For example, under Orion they would have like Galatea (Destroyed), Bastion, etc.
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Originally posted by Striker
Thanks that works for me. I assume that Shivans have no known or set order, considering they are all just one big kick ass invasion force. Anyone know how the NTF works? Or are they completely ragtag?
Also, is there any sort of list of all the known capships in Freespace? For example, under Orion they would have like Galatea (Destroyed), Bastion, etc.
there's a list around here somewhere. Give me a min to search around.
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No rush at all. I really appreciate you guys helping me out here.
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Here we go. It was in Sandvich's SIG.
http://www.brainzipper.com/fs2/notes/fs2_ship_list.html
I dont believe nobody has mentioned this so i'll go ahead:
:welcome:
Welcome to Hard Light Productions. Please fasten your seatbelts and prepare for take-off. Should there be an emergency, exits are to your front and rear. Lifejackets are under the seats right next to the Flamethrowers, but niether work. That's cause the napalm is up front in the lockers along with the Plasma Rifles and beam cannons. But these can only be opened by [v], an Admin, or a hyper-intelligent shade of the color blue. If you are stopped by a Shivan in the vents, it's just carl. Give him your lunch and run away and you should be ok. Do not be afraid to ask for help, and the FSDoc Wiki is your best friend, buddy and wife, USE IT!
Welcome to HLP, and have a safe journey.
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Striker, there's plenty of good information on the FS Universal Reference Project (http://3dap.com/hlp/hosted/fsurp/) too. :)
:welcome:
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Originally posted by Singh
There are seperate terms used for a Terran, Vasudan or Joint Fleet.
A terran fleet will normally consist of A destroyer, anywhere from 2 to 6 Corvettes (depending on the importance of the system) a lot of Cruisers for support, several transports/support ships like gas miners and the lot, and most likely an AWACs ship. If it's a joint fleet, then double the number of ships.
That's an approximation as there is very little data about fleet size in the game. I think your estimate may actually be somewhat small though Singh. The only data that comes to mind is the following.
36 hours ago, the NTF launched a full-scale offensive in Epsilon Pegasi, taking the GTVA 6th Fleet by surprise. Commanding his forces from the NTD Repulse, Rear Admiral Koth leads the rebel advance. With 75 percent of our forces in this system decimated, the regional death toll since the incursion now exceeds 80,000.
This info implies that the 6th fleet had over 100,000 people in it. At 10,000 to a destroyer and 6,000 to a corvette that implies a much bigger fleet than you said.
That said the 6th Fleet was stationed on the front line and may have been heavily reinforced by extra ships.
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Originally posted by karajorma
That's an approximation as there is very little data about fleet size in the game. I think your estimate may actually be somewhat small though Singh. The only data that comes to mind is the following.
This info implies that the 6th fleet had over 100,000 people in it. At 10,000 to a destroyer and 6,000 to a corvette that implies a much bigger fleet than you said.
That said the 6th Fleet was stationed on the front line and may have been heavily reinforced by extra ships.
True, quite true indeed. But dont forget the support personnel as well - non combat ships do make up quite a percentage.
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Originally posted by karajorma
36 hours ago, the NTF launched a full-scale offensive in Epsilon Pegasi, taking the GTVA 6th Fleet by surprise. Commanding his forces from the NTD Repulse, Rear Admiral Koth leads the rebel advance. With 75 percent of our forces in this system decimated, the regional death toll since the incursion now exceeds 80,000.
This info implies that the 6th fleet had over 100,000 people in it. At 10,000 to a destroyer and 6,000 to a corvette that implies a much bigger fleet than you said.
That said the 6th Fleet was stationed on the front line and may have been heavily reinforced by extra ships. [/B]
Unfortunately, that's not entirely valid either, since Petrach never specifies those are miliary casualties. Koth could have been striking out at anything that came across his path, especially anything Vasudan.
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I don't believe each fleet has just one destroyer - probably something like a Hecate as the command ship and then maybe one or two Orions for big engagements. Do we know if the Carthage part of the 3rd Fleet?
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Originally posted by SadisticSid
I don't believe each fleet has just one destroyer - probably something like a Hecate as the command ship and then maybe one or two Orions for big engagements. Do we know if the Carthage part of the 3rd Fleet?
I dont think so; but when dealing with the Shivans, I'd think that the GTVA would deploy as many ships as possible. It would depend directly on the system's importance. Some may have 2 or 3 destroyers with a single acting in command, whilst others would only have a fleet of small ships supported by an Arcadia command. Depends on need I think.
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here's ont that'll bug ya: was the Messana part of 3rd fleet ? or just assisting the evacuation ?
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I always assumed that the terms 'fleet' and 'battle group' were interchangeable, and Admiral Khafre just happened to use one instead of the other.
As for fleet size, I think it probably varies depending on the economic, political, or strategic importance of the fleet's home system. Also don't forget that there may be unattached ships. I think it's safe to assume that the GTD Krios and the GTD Soyokaze (sp?) didn't have fleet attachments.
As for the fuel question, here's something that's always bugged me: Where the bloody hell is the Pegasus' power source? The thing is a paper airplane; it can't exist.
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Originally posted by Ace
To be much more specific:
Fusion reactors.
Kind of like in Spiderman 2.
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Originally posted by SadisticSid
I don't believe each fleet has just one destroyer - probably something like a Hecate as the command ship and then maybe one or two Orions for big engagements. Do we know if the Carthage part of the 3rd Fleet?
I actually thought the same
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Originally posted by Ford Prefect
I always assumed that the terms 'fleet' and 'battle group' were interchangeable, and Admiral Khafre just happened to use one instead of the other.
Could be but I've only heard Battle Group used for Vasudans and Fleet for humans so there could be more to it than that.
Admittedly though the ships with the Colossus were refered to as it's Battle Group.
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Originally posted by Setekh
Striker, there's plenty of good information on the FS Universal Reference Project (http://3dap.com/hlp/hosted/fsurp/) too. :)
:welcome:
There's a lot of non-canon info in that timeline though. :doubt:
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I dont think so; but when dealing with the Shivans, I'd think that the GTVA would deploy as many ships as possible.
Well, part of the whole Freespace 2 thing was the GTVA's (mistaken) belief that they were equal, if not superior, to the Shivans and could beat them easily.
There's a lot of non-canon info in that timeline though. :doubt:
Not to mention inaccurate canon info (i.e. construction of the Iceni).
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If you read the in-between missions text carefully, you'll note that more than one battlegroup was annihilated completely by the Shivans. I'd say it's safe to say we had more destroyers and capitals... they just got obliterated.
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HEADZ@!@#@!!!!!!!333
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I don't think it likely at all that "Battle Group" and "Fleet" are interchangeable; rather I think that battle group means more or less what it means now: a major combat formation organized at fleet level on a semi ad-hoc basis from resources available at the fleet level. (A quick digression: the buried assumption seems to be that every system has a fleet, which I don't think is true. 3rd fleet Capella is based in Capella, but it is likely responsible for a number of systems around that system).
So Third Fleet has a whole host of units and installations under its command: Several destroyers, a number of what a 21st century navy would call “major surface combatants” (the Corvettes, basically, although my historical completist mind insists there are other types, or at least classes, that we just haven’t seen), escorts (cruisers and such) and fighter wings, plus one god-awful big logical tail of freighters, transports, stations, repair craft and a veritable ****load of other stuff needed to keep everyone fed, fueled, and supplied. All this is under the command of Petrarch, and with it he is commanded to Go Forth, Do Good, Keep the Peace, and Defended the GTA. The implementation of this is left too him, as he has four stars upon his shoulder, and answers only to god and budget committees.
So when he needs to put down a rebellion someplace, or show the flag, or just Do Stuff in general, what he does is put together a destroyer or two, mate it (or them) with a fighter wing(s), add in a some corvettes and a great many (as that term can meaningfully be applied to great huge, absurdly expensive heavily manned space faring warships; i.e. six or eight is a great many) cruisers, assign a rear- or vice-admiral to command it depending on the size, and send them off to Do That Previously Alluded Stuff. This is what I judge is most likely meant by “Battle Group”, and its probably named after the destroyer where the commanding admiral hoists his flag, so that Aquitaine and her attendants are the “Aquitaine battle group”
Well. That just revealed that I think about this stuff way to hard. I’m going to go contemplate why no one will ever love me.
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Dont worry, I love you. You said what I was going to, only you went into better detail. Another thing that proves his theory is the Colossus battlegroup. In the FS2 opening cinematic, we see the Colossus, 2 Sobeks, 2 Fenris's, and 2 Mentus. So a battlegroup may be something close to a Destroyer, 2 Corvettes, 4-5 cruisers, and fighter escort. I didnt count the fighters in the cinematic but you know. So I think a battlegroup is simply a destroyer and a few escorts.
A task force is probably variable in size, but they can be bigger than fleets, as shown by the nebula task force of both 3rd fleet and 11th (I think?)
So what have we learned today?
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Yeah, good idea, trust the FMV sequences, 'cause they got the Battle of Deneb exactly right....
(Not to mention showing Capella as having only one star.)
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Hmmph.
3rd fleet Capella is based in Capella, but it is likely responsible for a number of systems around that system
You mean like Epsilon Pegasi and Vega? Oh, wait...
assign a rear- or vice-admiral to command it depending on the size...
You mean like Admiral Khafre? Oh, wait...
and it's probably named after the destroyer where the commanding admiral hoists his flag...
You mean like the 13th Battle Group of Deneb? Oh, wait...
Obviously, I am a firm proponent of the 'Terran Fleet, Vasudan Battle Group' theory. Given that there is no reference whatsoever to a Vasudan Fleet, and yet what would appear to be a counterpart to the 3rd Fleet of Capella is the Vasudan 13th Battle Group of Deneb, and that Admiral Khafre's command is consistently referred to as the 13th Battle Group and not the 13th Fleet or Psamtik Battle Group while Admiral Petrarch's command is consistently referred to as the 3rd Fleet and not the 3rd (or whatever number) Battle Group or Aquitane Battle Group... I think that 'Terran Fleet, Vasudan Battle Group' wins out over 'Battle Group is part of Fleet'.
Admittedly though the ships with the Colossus were refered to as it's Battle Group.
That could just be a generic name given to a number of warships, though, and not actually a title like "The Colossus Battle Group", something that is along the same lines as "The 13th Battle Group." Although it could also be the long-handed version of writing "the Colossus Battle Group" since capital letters wouldn't work well with "the Colossus and its battle group".
Oh, and: This old version of FSURP has some stuff on it that hasn't been moved over to the newer version. (http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/fsurp/old/tfleet.html)
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^ Yup. There's alot of weird stuff going on when it comes to the GTVA nomenclature, but that's the way it is.
The only extension to fleet organzation that I can immeadiately see is that each fleet/battlegroup consists of multiple warship squadrons. A few squadrons of cruisers here, a few squadrons of corvettes there, with destroyers being nominally 'independent'.
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Fleet: a number of warships under a single command; specifically : an organization of ships and aircraft under the command of a flag officer
Group(assume Battle): a military unit consisting of a headquarters and attached battalions
I think, given the Vasudans unique organizational skills, that they only 1 Fleet. Which consists of approximately 2 dozen destroyers of varying classes, approximately twice that number of corvettes and 3-5 time that number of cruisers. Battle Groups are detached and dispatched as needed by Fleet Command(not the Terran). The Fleet would likely be funded as a whole by the Empire and given that a Battle Group is hardly ever more than 5 jumps from an Installation or Planet, provisioning would be handled in these locations not by hundreds of freighters trailing behind the various battle groups.
Humans on the other hand would probably make each "Fleet" the responsibility of the various systems they patrol. The Commanding Admiral(Five Stars simply to give him the rank) would likely be stationed on the "capitol planet" of the system where he would work closely with the civilian government to arrange provisioning and such, make tactical decisions and such. Actual day-to-day control of the fleet would be taken care of by the most senior admiral in the system from his flag ship. I would expect a similar distribution of ships as the Vasudans, with a larger portion being older designs refit with newer systems(Orions and Fenris/Leviathans). Newer ships would form the core squadron(Aquitaine, Monitor, ect) with the older ships(Carthage) being on "ready deploy" status should the need arise,
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I think battle groups are a more offensive vocationed group, while a fleet acts in both ways, offensive or defensive.
A battle group is more focused on search and destroy missions, while a fleet is more for focused on defending a system, for space superiority.
Battle groups should have more offensive firepower, bombers, destroyers, all the heavy hitters. And they bring along much less support ships, because they are set for shorter duration missions.
I would say a Fleet (in its Earth naval essence) is composed of 2 pairs of carriers, some 8 battleships, about 16 cruisers, several destroyers and escort frigates, lots of corvets and dozens of gunboats, tanker ships and a multitude of support ships.
Wich reminds me, the hierarchy in the FS universe is diferent from the naval hierarchy (don´t know why). In the regular naval hierarchy, a corvet is a small escort ship, slightly smaller than a frigate. A destroyer is smaller than a cruiser, and a bit larger than the frigate. And the big hitter is the battleship and dreadnought. The correct order on FS should have been something like this:
-fighter
-bomber
-gunboat
-corvet
-frigate
-destroyer
-cruiser
-battleship
-dreadnought
-carrier
-juggernought
-supercarrier
A battle group would be composed of one carrier, a couple of battleships and cruisers, and a surrounding cyrcle of escort ships, like destroyers, frigates and corvets. It would virtually have no support ships, because these are slow, and the group needs to move fast. The carrier would pack lots of attack bombers, and assault fighters.
A good example of a battle group is the one that hunted the Bismark, in WWII.
Battle groups are formed to chase down specific targets, like enemy cap ships.
At least that´s the way i see it.
;)