Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: J3Vr6 on August 05, 2004, 04:51:29 pm
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"The Democratic Party is trying to stop this commercial from being aired. I wonder why?? They must be scared that millions of Americans will see his true colors." - My sister, who sent me the link.
http://www.swiftvets.com/
I'm not saying it's true or not. Just thought it was interesting, and since I haven't posted in a while I figured a brutal debate was in order :D
Ok, discuss while I go pee.
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I think it's unlikely to be - the nature of politics is that 2 extremes are present, and the honest truth is somewhere in the middle.
The other side of the coin is that Kerry turned anti-war after Vietnam, didn't he? That's got to piss of a few vets.
So I'd take this with the same massive pinch of salt you would any other political commercial / statement.
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Uhhhmmm... That really doesn't say much
1st: Are they who they say they are? (still doesn't make a difference)
2nd: What story did he lie about? I want to know :)
3rd: Could be a general bashing or advertisement...
4rth: He could of pissed off some Vets also, this really says nothing
I would like to find out where and what this is about, if it is true
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He had cool hair.
As far as his conduct goes - would you rather have Dubya on the battle field?
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Originally posted by jdjtcagle
Uhhhmmm... That really doesn't say much
1st: Are they who they say they are? (still doesn't make a difference)
2nd: What story did he lie about? I want to know :)
3rd: Could be a general bashing or advertisement...
4rth: He could of pissed off some Vets also, this really says nothing
I would like to find out where and what this is about, if it is true
1. Yes.
2. He testified to the senate after he left the war that he and almost all US soldiers commited horrible attrocities. What the others are saying is that no, for the largest majority thats not true and John Kerry said this to save his own neck. He also recieved at least 2 of his purple hearts due to self-inflicted extremely minor wounds. In one case he recieved a purple heart after getting hit be a small piece of shrapnel that the doc took out with tweezers, that came from a mortar round that he launched at some rocks.
3. If you notice this group does not support W but it does not believe that John Kerry is fit to be President.
4. You think? He accused them all of doing horrible things.
BTW JK "band of brothers" did not include any one of the people that signed the letter saying that he is not fit to be president. In fact I believe that only 1/10 of the people serving on swift boats in his unit support him. (check me on this)
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1) Kerry recieved his three purple hearts for absolutely minor things. He never missed a day of duty because of his injuries, which shows how severe they were. His two other medals, the Bronze and Silver stars are also very dubious.
2)On two seperate occasions, he beached the Swift boat and exited, in direct contravention of every single rule in the book. This is forbidden because a beached swift-boat is effectively a sitting duck for RPGs and small-arms fire.
3) According to his own biographers, Kerry commited what amounts to war crimes. Sure, it was widespread among US troops in Vietnam, but he did on several occassions kill civilians who were clearly innocent and were not a threat. He was involved in what was perhaps the most brutal and heinous US initiative in Vietnam, the Phoenix Program.
here is an excellent (in my opinion) article regarding Kerry's vaunted Vietnam service.
http://www.counterpunch.com/cockburn07292004.html
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So he's a dummy hero...
One of those people that kill innocent people in war time clearly out racism
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Mr.Skull and Bones has been grooming his political carrier since he was in college. He even confesed that that the war in Vietnam was an offensive war and that Vietnam could in no way pose a danger to America. And yet he fought in it, and fought quite savagely if the reports are correct. Even to his commanding officers back then, as I understand it, it was quite clear that whatever he did, he did so with the intent that it would further his political career somehow.
But wait, don't just listen to me. I've linked to an anti-Kerry article, and for a whole host of reasons, I'm pretty much anti-Kerry, but you should chec out the other side of that arguement, how he's a hero etc etc and judge for yourself. But keep in mind, and this goes for everybody, that according to Kerry's own officials, his goals are not very different than Bush's (namely, Empire), its just the implemenation that they disagree on. Like two princes fighting with each other for control of the kingdom. They will each try to rally the people to their side, but in the end, neither of them is interested in getting rid of the system that keeps them in power. Neither is interested in handing control to the people.
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Originally posted by Deepblue
it does not believe that John Kerry is fit to be President
Considering the alternative.....
:lol:
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Thats what you think, but many other people think differently.
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The Vietnam War was an atrocity. It wasn't the fault of the soldiers; they were forced into the situation, but nonetheless, they had to do horrible things.
Personally, I don't give a **** about anyone's military service. Maybe Kerry's record has become littered with rumors, but the fact is that it's no more questionable than those of many veterans; the only reason it's being called into question is because he's running for president. As for Bush, one of the few things I don't fault him for is that he avoided military service, because I know that I would do the same thing given the opportunity.
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But yet the media pretends that the war shows American courage and victory to a cause that wasn't our problem in the first place and only strenghten the heart of the so called American spirit that will play on the radio for the next 50 years spreading a sense of nationality for all the wrong reasons. Why must we act like we rule the world!?
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I'm John Kerry, yes I'm the real Kerry
All you other John Kerrys are just imitating
So won't the real John Kerry please stand up,
please stand up, please stand up?
First thing I thought of :p
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Same thing I thought, reminded me of this (http://www.toccionline.com/creations/realhussein/).:D
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Ford: yes, but Kerry volunteered for the Army. Though I do agree with you that military service is nothing to be proud of. Its just means you killed some poor peasants in their own country, so that the US could establish its power.
jdjtcagle: simple, because America does rule the world ;) ;)
Its all part of the war mentality that plays such a large role in 1984, and I think it was described very well. Its part of the way in which the domestic population is controlled from acting in their own best inetrests.
er, that email I was supposed to send you is now on its way, most of it is in there.
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Sweet!!!
I got it and I'll get to reading, thanks :):yes:
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You know what? John Kerry didnt even perform a full tour of duty in Vietnam! He was there for 3 months, and he comes back a war hero! What the hell? A full tour of duty is a whole year. He didnt even finish half of one. This commercial goes to show what other people saw, which I would believe more since Kerry has limited credability. Please, 3 purple hearts in 3 months? Thats outrageous. Not even a full tour of duty.
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Well, the official exlpaination is that after you get 3 purple hearts you can apply to go back home, which he did, and ended up working for some general in an office somewhere.
...but thats only if you believe the 3 purple hearts are legit, which clearly...
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hey, it just occured to me, John Forbes Kerry is JFK...
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dun dun dun!
now you know the horrable truth, the clone armey will be after you, run. RUN!
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Beware the grassy knoll....
By the way, what the hell is so persuasive about that commerical? It's just a bunch of vets (who could be from any unit in the war for all we know) saying they don't like John Kerry. Big deal.
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yeah, makes you wonder why Kerry is so spastic about blocking it.
so how screwed are we thanks to the "anybody but Bush" mentality?
we now have to chose between an idiot and a pussy, both of whom could be described as criminals, and both of whom want to do basicly the same thing. do you still think that notbush is going to realy make things better?
/*grumbels something about McCain*/
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I saw his plane at Regan National Airport (Near DC) on Tuesday. It was costom painted. Pretty nice. Looks nicer than Air Force One at least.
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Pussy > a lot of things. And I don't just mean the ;7 kind.
As for Kerry wanting to block it leading to the validity of the statements, I'd probably want to block a commercial like that too if I were him. It doesn't matter whether what they are saying is true or not, the general public is horribly impressionable, especially if it's something they want to hear.
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Didn't it mention that these are all people who served with Kerry?
This reminds me of that episode of the Simpsons becomes a vigilante
"Here, Flanders can lead"
"Oh no, I really wouldn't know how."
"Forget him, he we need someone else"
"I'm someone else!"
"He's right!"
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It also mentioned that they don't like Kerry, without any examples of why. Just "Kerry can't lead. Kerry lies. Kerry is a bad shot."
Now, I'm not saying that there's no truth behind any of it, just that it's just as biased and therefore questionable as any other political ad.
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well, the 3 prurple hearts which he is so fond of have been discredited by various groups, and I think this is just a counter to the equally political ads put out by Kerry's campaign about how he was a great soldier and leader and his whole squad is there etc etc.
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Agreed.
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Originally posted by Rictor
hey, it just occured to me, John Forbes Kerry is JFK...
no, he's Armin Tamzarian (http://www.doheth.co.uk/profiles/skinner.shtml)
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John Edwards: If you have any question what John Kerry is made of, just spend three minutes with the men who served with him 30 years ago...
"I served with John Kerry."
"I served with John Kerry."
"John Kerry has not been honest about what happen in Vietnam."
"He is lying about his record."
"I know John Kerry is lying about his first purple heart, because I treated him for that injury."
"John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star. I know. I was there. I saw what happened."
"His account of what happened -- and what actually happened -- are the difference between night and day."
"John Kerry has not been honest..."
"...and he lacks the capacity to lead."
"When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry."
"John Kerry is no war hero."
"He betrayed all his shipmates, he lied before the Senate."
"John Kerry betrayed the men and women he served with in Vietnam."
"He dishonored his country -- he most certainly did."
"I served with John Kerry. John Kerry cannot be trusted."
"Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is responsible for the content of this advertisement."
Well, that proves it! Look at this mountain of evidence!
(ROFLMAO)
Edit: Here's the vid from the hammered site, haven't watched it: http://humaneventsonline.com.edgesuite.net/unfit_video_wmv.html
Ps. paid by Communist Vietnam, lol.
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Can we have a similar advert for Bush with all the people who were at the air force base he was supposed to serve at saying that they can't say much about him cause he had defected at the time they were there so that he could avoid being sent to Vietnam? ;)
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Originally posted by Rictor
...Though I do agree with you that military service is nothing to be proud of.
I couldn't disagree with this statement more. Whether people think it's for the advancement of the US or not, you fought and could have died for this country and you should be absolutely proud of serving and others should be proud of you as well. I feel this coming from a family where my father served for this country on several fronts. I can never be more proud him. I see the scars on his back from shrapnel and although it saddens me, I know he did it because there was something he believes in: The USA. And he's not US born, so imagine that.
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Rictor's from Serbia. I can see why he would think that the military have absolutely nothing to be proud of.
Doesn't mean he's right though.
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John Kerry can suck my balls. I hate that creep. I'll be VERY sad for America if he gets elected. Do you know that he used a picture from Veitnam of he and all his crew as some sort of reminder that he served, and all but 3 of the like 23 crewmembers sued him for it cause they diddnt want to be associated with him at all.
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Kerry is an idiot. Bush is a bigger idiot. Vote for a third party.
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"I think I may have served with George Bush."
"I was George Bushes dentist. Maybe. It says here (pleas,e just put the gun down!)"
"George Bush has not been to Vietnam."
"He is lying about his record."
"I know George Bush is lying about his military service, cos i never saw the bugger turn up."
"George Bush lied to get hi military crewcut for free at the local barbers."
"His account of what happened -- and what actually happened -- are the difference between night and day."
"George Bush has not been honest..."
"...and he lacks the capacity to lead."
"When the pretzels were down, you could not count on George Bush to swallow correctly."
"George Bush is not very bright."
"He betrayed all citizens, he lied before the Senate & UN about WMD."
"George Bush betrayed the men and women he served with.....oh, wait."
"He dishonored his country -- he most certainly did. Dishourabilised and dishnourblised it, too."
"I served with George Bush.....at least, that's what they told me to say to get out of Guantanomo "
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I am actually torn this election. I honestly think we need a change from Bush, but I am not very fond of Kerry. I have to weigh the lesser of two evils. The fact that he lies about his service record so blatently in itself is cause for me to throw up. The fact that he touts those purple hearts when he probably got them for stubbing a toe makes me sick, especially when my father earned his saving people and getting blown up in the process (but thanks to the wonders of modern medicine, they could rebuild him... make him stronger...).
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I cannot respect the willingness to kill or be killed for your country. This impulse is the root of so much human folly. People claim not to be arrogant about their country's moral stature, but all pretense seems to melt away when someone starts preaching about honor and bravery in war. Paint whatever flag or coat of arms you want over the face of it-- all societies are the same; they take their young and energetic and throw us into battle like chess pieces because we lack the sense of self-preservation to tell the recruiters to go to hell. Meanwhile, the rest of the population can stand on its soap box of honor and idolize a piece of cloth because they are secure in the knowledge that testosterone and induced hatred are doing the work that they know they would never do.
I can easily understand how I might be labled a cynic because of this, but people killing each other is a horrific thing, and it disturbs me to see people pretend that violence can be a regulated procedure. But I suppose that this, like most patterns of society, is inescapable.
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Originally posted by J3Vr6
I couldn't disagree with this statement more. Whether people think it's for the advancement of the US or not, you fought and could have died for this country and you should be absolutely proud of serving and others should be proud of you as well. I feel this coming from a family where my father served for this country on several fronts. I can never be more proud him. I see the scars on his back from shrapnel and although it saddens me, I know he did it because there was something he believes in: The USA. And he's not US born, so imagine that.
You know, there's an offical government slogan in North Korea that goes, and I quote : The Government Decides and the People Act. That is the essence of the modern military, especially in America in the past few decades.
Serving your country is not good or bad by itself, but is based upon what it is that your country is doing. What it roughly comes down it is, is your government waging an offensive war or a defensive war. Otherwise, you are a mindless drone, a worker bee, and simply for doing as ordered, you are some kind of hero. Blind patriotism is not an admirable quality.
And lets face it, since the end of WW2, the US has waged only wars of agression. Pick a war, and there are plenty, and try to justify it outside the context of stopping the spread of Communism, since forcefully stopping an idealogy from taking root essentially amounts to oppossing the right of self-determination.
Someone who served in Vietnam (joined up of their own free will, not drafter) or who is serving in Iraq, they are serving their country, true, but the SS were also serving their country. Serving their country to act as the shock-troops for the subjugation of an entire people, yes. If I had it my way, before being allowed to serve in the Army, every recruit would do a 2-year course in political science, history, sociology and so forth. A soldier without a mind is like a car without a driver; it can cause a lot of damage, but thats all it can do.
War against a foreign country only happens when the moneyed classes think they are going to profit from it. Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac
-George Orwell
[there is another quote that I would have liked to put, but I couldn't find it. It goes something like "It is horrible and wrong that people who ordinarily have no quarrell with each other should be made to kill each oteher for their country"]
kara: this has nothing to do with me being Serbian, since I hold it equally true for all people. I just had the good fortune to somehow avoid being indoctrinated with the idea that soldiers are good simply for doing as they are told, regardless of what it is they are actually doing and who it is that they are actually serving. Have my experiences coloured my current perception? Of course they have. But if everyone went through the experience of having bombs drop a few hundred meters away from their grand-parents, no one would ever want to wage war again. Take the most militant, pro-war goonie you can find, and make him live in Bahgdad for a few months, or in Afghanistan, or Kosovo or Haiti and watch them do and about-face.
ford: very well said
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For people interested in militarism, I can reccomend an author, Stan Goff. I have unfortunately not yet read his books, both due to money maitters and the fact that my local bookshop doesn't carry them, but I have read many of his articles and I consider him to among the foremost authors on the subject, having been a Special Forces soldier serving in several invasions and occupations.
He has two books out, Hideous Dreams and Full Spectrum Disorder, both of which you can preview on Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1932360123/qid=1091816179/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-6629264-3439032?v=glance&s=books
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Im not an American so my vote don't really count. However i would like to say, that your choices seem limited. Even here in Canada we get screwed over with puppet politicians and liars, and we end up without a real choice in the polls. I see this happening in the US as it seems the entire country is split either way with serious factual gripes to pick with each possible leader.
Its too bad not voting leads to not being heard rather then not showing confidence.
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Some breaking news on this affair: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/08/06/veteran_retracts_criticism_of_kerry/
Discuss.
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sounds like some strong-arm tactics by Kerry's campaign. I mean, this isn't the election for the 8th Grade class president, this is the big time. So many people are so invested in Kerry winning, and somethng like this is just the thing that could ruin it for them. Kerry has been playing up his macho image, and parading his medals around, and now if a group of veterns who have served with Kerry claim that he didn't deserve them, if they destroy his soldier image, that will likely have a noticeable effect on the election.
Kerry's backers are very powerful, so my guess is that they made a few phone-calls, twisted a few arms and -presto- the man retracts his statement in such a hurry that he isn't able to adequately explain why he retracted it or, if he believes the information was false, why he made it in the first place.
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Or pressure was put on him in the first place.......works either way.
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actualy I think I heard about this, the guy in question is totaly misrepresented, I heard him on the radio this morning talking about how what was printed was totaly bull, and that he still stands agains Kerry, if this is the same guy.
oh, hey, I remember the rest of it, Kranish is a Kerry biographer, that was the guy, yeah, that's just a three page BS job
(http://www.swiftvets.com/article.php?story=20040806153208686)...claiming that Captain Elliott had withdrawn his affidavit and disavowed the ad. This is totally false....
...Captain Elliott affirms his original affidavit; affirms his ad statement; and adds additional detail. In the ad, Captain Elliott says that Kerry was not honest...
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that's there offical responce