Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: Tepa on August 08, 2004, 04:55:12 pm
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seems like in multiplay Pegasus stealth is NOT an stealth anymore AIs are capable to lock aspect missiles on players like on normal ship
and probatly AI v AI stealths can do same lock aspect's aswell
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this was reported in mantis aswell sometime ago
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I confirm that observation
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The Pegasus is never stealthed unless it's done in FRED.
This isn't a case of the ship not working properly in multiplayer. It's a case of the missions (whatever they may be) not being set up for stealth fighters.
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*speechless... checking if I woke up in a different reality and didn't notice*
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doesn't the Pegasus have a $Stealth: something or other?
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It needs a "ship-stealthy" sexp to activate the effect for any mission where its used.
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No, it works fine without that ($Stealth makes it completely invisible on radar, at least in the original version). Anyway, I tested this out and it seems that the AIs ignore stealth ships until they fire, after which they can attack them for the rest of the mission. I can't remember how it used to be originally, though.
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Originally posted by Moonsword
The Pegasus is never stealthed unless it's done in FRED.
This isn't a case of the ship not working properly in multiplayer. It's a case of the missions (whatever they may be) not being set up for stealth fighters.
Whatever dimansion of existance you are from, in this dimension (where all multiplayer pilots are from...) the stealth fighters were working as STEALTH fighters without any moddification in FRED. At least they used to in original FreeSpace2 before SCP started to play with AI and so on...
Sorry but if the same mission IS working just perfect in original FreeSpace2 and IS NOT working on SCP this is the SCP issue, not the mission issue... Unless you plan not to make SCP fuly backwards compatibile with original FreeSpace2 missions...
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CP u tryed VA2 with 8 pegasi
just re verified that flyed nicely formed up and didnt took long until thoths started to fire aspectlock missiles and yes they are able to pick stealth only IF u flyed certain cone area tro theyr nose and close enough to smell pilot inside or firing weapons near em but still they were never able to lock&fire harpoons,torns or start trackin ya from over 2k range
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forgot in team mission awacs2 we tested it also simply blow up each others awac's it did same thing+ my opposite side took herc2 and that herc2 turned as stealth no radar bliip after awacs gone but AIs were able spam aspects to both of us
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If it works in vanilla fs, and doesn't work in SCP, it's likely a bug.
Keep the "alternative reality comments" civil please. If it's a bug, plop it in mantis. If one of the other SCP guys (note the little green icon next to my name) can verify or explain, I don't recall intentionally breaking stealth.
It's possible, I just don't recall it and can't think of a reason for it. But I also can't tell you what the original behavior was in multiplayer. I died too frequently to notice :)
Is it like this in all the builds? 3.6 and later? Just the FSO builds? Is it in both singleplayer and multi? Or just multi? Not sure reading that description.
Try to be nice to one another ;)
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Well, if someone tells me that stealth fighters never were stealth before without special treatment, I sure feel in the wrong reality... and the comments up there are far from any hostility :)
I think the Stealth is just one of the problems noticeable in all the missions since SCP changed values and AI behaviour... I checked them lately and verified other players observations with my own:
So... now my 2Cents if you care or not:
- Any fighter below a heavy bombers feels like flying a paperplane, anything you ramm is deadlier then ever
- AI got better primary aiming in SCP - 1-2 hits you are destroyed, same goes for all kind of weapons - even flak is more deadly then ever (maybe cause you really sit in a paperplane)
- AI got better evading skills - bombers even won't do a normal bomb run - they stay at a safe distance and fire bombs at max range only - maybe that tactic even works since in SCP FS2 capship beams won't attack bombs/bombers anymore
- Missiles either work are are completely useless - while AI kills me with 2 Harps almost every time, I waste 8 on one Seraphis and hopefully 2 of them do some damage (my missiles hit in that case - I don't count all the evaded)
- Beams counting for the Kill % makes bombing pretty useless with capship-beams around - may be realistic and I know it got added cause of fighter-beams in the SCP code, but since its game and 5 years all created mission with this in mind I think it should be fun still to play older missions - if I bomb something and a capship-beam just kills my target (and AI kills still don't count for players in the same team) or simple gets more % then me, why do I play a bomber at all if I can't get a kill or points?
- Shockwaves are more deadly then ever, don't know for sure why maybe the paperplane effect again - some mission are auto-lost 90% all times because of that - example: Knife Fight (TS-Bandit_m01)
- Part of the AI changes seem to be reaction times too - example: TDIC (cet_m06) is auto-lost because AI fires seconds AFTER the missions starts even when AT missionstart all hostiles change to friendly team - worked fine that way in vanilla, doesn't in SCP
This list is not complete but something to work with...
These changes here and there, some ment as bug fixes, some ment as improvements - ALL of them completly remove any balance that game once had - that isn't only noticeable in my beloved Coops, TvTs are unbalanced too
How to solve it?
Please, make any of the SCP changes to AI behaviour and maybe physics an option checkbox in Fred2: so, if any mission was created for vanilla FS2 still uses the old AI routines and standard physics and any new mission created for the SCP that should have all these improvements simply would have another value/flag added
Plz, don't tell me "If you don't like the changes, don't use SCP" - it's not just ME noticing that something is completly wrong with the multiplayer part, I'm just the one telling you the truth...
In singleplayer I may be able to choose whatever build I want, even Vanilla FS2 - in multiplayer I need compatible clients with the same values and rules - and some balance, at best the balance FS2 had for the last 5 years...
Again I have no problem with some of the improvements - as long they are not auto-activated and don't overrule any former balance a mission was built for...
Thx, now rip me apart if you feel the need for!
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Originally posted by Cetanu
I think the Stealth is just one of the problems noticeable in all the missions since SCP changed values and AI behaviour
[snip]
We have a long-standing policy of not changing the AI because it tends to royally screw everything up. Some AI changes have slipped through, but we're trying to clean them up. If you notice any difference, by all means please let us know (preferably on Mantis, with a full bug report).in SCP FS2 capship beams won't attack bombs/bombers anymore
That's only for capship beams, not fighter beams, and it's supposed to be activated only by a flag.- Beams counting for the Kill % makes bombing pretty useless with capship-beams around - may be realistic and I know it got added cause of fighter-beams in the SCP code
Mantis this. We should make beams only count towards the kill if they're fighter beams (since they're a new feature) and otherwise keep the old behavior.This list is not complete but something to work with...
Some of these I've noticed, and some I haven't, but regardless, please post them in Mantis with screenshots and full descriptions.Please, make any of the SCP changes to AI behaviour and maybe physics an option checkbox in Fred2: so, if any mission was created for vanilla FS2 still uses the old AI routines and standard physics and any new mission created for the SCP that should have all these improvements simply would have another value/flag added
That's our policy... unfortunately, not everybody is careful about sticking to it. When we discover that someone has changed stuff without making it optional, we make every effort to fix it.Plz, don't tell me "If you don't like the changes, don't use SCP"
Who said this, and when? This is not something I want the staff saying. - it's not just ME noticing that something is completly wrong with the multiplayer part, I'm just the one telling you the truth...
If you notice something wrong, by all means please tell us and don't be intimidated if someone brushes you off. If that happens, let me know and I'll set them straight.
Summary: if you notice anything wrong with the SCP, don't stew in silence... please let us know.
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If you don't like the changes, don't use SCP - was the sum of most replies I got when I asked for the old render engine... I thought I best sort this out here where it has nothing to do with my graphic card
It's the 2nd thread where I get accused of hostility - sure, getting praise for cool new features sounds a lot more charming then annoying postings of bugs that need fixing... I don't see a way to write any more softer or report odd FS2 behaviour with sugar on top
Mmm, I really would like to, but how should I give a screenshot of something like the feeling of piloting a paperplane? I just can compare flying in vanilla and SCP FS2 - it feels different so it most certainly is - the events log page in FS2 only shows the % of who kills what not HOW that happend - its no render engine glitch I can document with a screenshot
another point I forgot on the list:
- Trebuchets:
In Vanilla FS2 AI never (this is a fact - compared to the never of the Stealths :D) used them, some of the missions are unwinable now because AI trebs away anything with doubled missiles too... example: Shivan Bombers in the multiversion of Exodus - their Trebs now waste the ships you have to protect before you are able to do anything
The problem here is that by default all Shivan bombers in FS2 have Trebuchets in their missile bays when selected in Fred2 - so this new usage of previously unused missiles affects all missions with default loadouts (including conversions of Volitions)
As for Mantis... well, maybe I get used to it, right now I feel better doing a list here
I heared some of the bugs got already reported as fixed on Mantis while they actually aren't in the newer builds - example: 01082004_fs2_open_r ... still only the first (in a row) played multiplayer mission saves if you don't leave the games area back to the hangar after each
I guess some fixes are only in one build and then dont get included into the code for the next...
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The trebs needs to be fixed in the missions, not the code. You said it yourself, AI never used them before. Validating an updated co-op shouldn't be too hard, but the Treb fix was a legitimate bug in the Volition code IIRC. It should be possible to edit the mission so that those bombers have nothing in their bays, if the trebs are a problem (I don't know how FSO would react to nothing in an AI missle bay, but judging by the old pilot file errors it should work perfectly).
It's not that this doesn't need to be corrected, it does. But pinning the problem on the SCP changes isn't necessarily the only or best option. The whole project fails without community input, and this is something that the community can certainly help with.
As for some bugfixes getting fixed but dissapearing in the next build, that may be a development lag. Most builds are posted for testing before the new code gets committed, but the best option regardless is to reopen/resubmit the bug.
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EDIT: I continued doing some research after posting this, and found the $stealth tag that someone mentioned. It's a line in the entry itself, and very hard to spot. I missed it on prior look-throughs of the table, and I apologize for those statements. They were based on an incomplete grasp of the situation, and I was in error. That does not, however, call for someone to be ridiculed. Your statements were needlessly hostile and offensive, and did not contribue meaningfully to the discussion.
I have also done some checking, and it seems that I used a different SEXP than I thought to hide something in a mission. My apologies, I should have double-checked on that as well.
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The AI never used Trebuchets before? Wow, I never realized this. Glad you guys fixed it though.
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Originally posted by Moonsword
I am not an idiot, nor a fool, and I do not appreciate being called such. I double-checked before I said that.
no one called you that... but thanks for my next hostile
I never checked the stealth function in the code - I simply played this game since it came out, I created missions with Stealth fighters in them, I tested these missions hundreds of times, I played lots of TvTs with Stealths, etc. so I know for sure how Stealths like the Pegasus and the Ptah worked in vanilla FS2
Now you posted they never were Stealths before without an extra check in Fred2... no problem, if more people then you would have signed this, I certainly woke up in the wrong reality today since I played 5 years with a different experience... no hostility here, unless you want to read between the lines by force - don't wear shoes that don't fit!
That's all what led to my astonished reply. Maybe this lengthy version would have been better? Anyway, in my first reply I was really speechless.
But that all distracts from the other SCP problems I mentioned...
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Originally posted by StratComm
It's not that this doesn't need to be corrected, it does. But pinning the problem on the SCP changes isn't necessarily the only or best option.
True. Maybe most of the SCP changes could be worked around some way or the other in Fred2 alone, but I thought the primary goal was to keep before-the-SCP missions working still correctly and all after-the-SCP to have the fixes and improvements. The earlier missions worked fine in vanilla FS2 for what they were created...
Changing 5 single missions is easy, but changing all missions of the last 5 years is not.
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There seems to be a bit of a communications barrier here, and I'm really not sure why. First off, people really need to understand a few things. Every change that alters gameplay in FSO has been debated, and when a conflict is apparent with backwards compatability then backwards compatability is, or should have been, enforced. I'm not a member of the SCP staff, but I have been watching this project since its inception and I can vouch that nothing major has been changed intentionally without serious debate. Second, nothing for the SCP happens quickly. At least nothing that someone wants or needs finished. This is not a professional (meaning paid) development team, and everyone who contributes does it on their own free time. Report the bug, ask about it from time to time if you deem it critical, but don't expect it to be fixed the next day. As goober has said repeatedly, every effort is being made to be accomodating to as many interests as possible, but no one can wave a magic wand and fix them all. This is especially true if no one on the project recognizes that there is a problem, and so reporting anomolies and bugs is invaluable to the development process.
Also, there's a lot of hostility floating around. There are some bruised egos by the looks of things, but if everyone will look closely none of it is coming from the SCP staff. Again, they're all trying to be as accomodating as possible.
EDIT:
Originally posted by Cetanu
True. Maybe most of the SCP changes could be worked around some way or the other in Fred2 alone, but I thought the primary goal was to keep before-the-SCP missions working still correctly and all after-the-SCP to have the fixes and improvements. The earlier missions worked fine in vanilla FS2 for what they were created...
Changing 5 single missions is easy, but changing all missions of the last 5 years is not.
The problem is, the Treb bug was/is a real problem in a lot of missions, since mission designers would want that firepower but have no way of assigning it to wingmen (as the fix was originally intended for; this affected the vanilla campaign too as one could load out wingmen with trebs to have them simply not use them) so it almost needs to be retroactive for singleplayer. The problem is not with the AI using Trebs, it is with the AI using a weapon that was previously treated as an empty bank. The missions are ASCII files, so it might be as simple as writing a batch file to add in a flag on all legacy missions to disable whatever fix was done for the trebs, if such a flag existed. But the fix itself really should be left on. It's just too limiting. A "classic freespace" mode for old missions would be nice, but I fear that it would be interconnected in far too many changes to simply be added in.
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Check the edited message, please, and it seemed that someone was implying that I was an idiot, but not you, as you were not the only one saying things like that. Also, I would like to know why you bothered to respond to my original post, since I edited it 30 minutes before you posted.
Second, Trivial Psychic said the same thing as I did about the SEXPs. I'm not the only one who was mistaken.
Also, you again misread the way I used that statement: it was not a past tense sentence, but a present tense one. I said never are, not never were. I was not saying your memory was incorrect, I was saying that based on what I had seen when checking the information, they weren't unless otherwise specified. I was incorrect, but I did not know that at the time. That wasn't an overly clear statement, but it was clearly in present tense.
EDIT: This is directed at Cetanu.
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I sometimes feel like the messenger who gets blamed for a bad message... does that count? So far nothing bruised my ego but I am surprized what some read between my lines :D
I simply care for this game - like most HLP users - and I want maximum of fun for everyone: and since not to many multiplayer pilots post here, I feel the need to post in their name
...and if I see my once fluidly working missions defunctioned by something ment as improvement I will post that too, because I know it will also defunction other missions from other Fredders, some of them no longer around to correct or update their missions.
Cheers!
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Cetanu, you're not, at least not to me. Part of this was response to another poster (*glances at Svizel*) who was rather offensive, and partially because I was rather... annoyed that you didn't read the edited version and missed Trivial Psychic's post. I'm not bothered because you reported a bug. I've reported the things myself occaisonally.
If the Pegasus is not behaving correctly in multiplayer, while the table entries are right, that's a problem, and should be fixed. And they are right, the entry for it's right over the Score entry in the table. Again, my apologies for missing that the first time.
And I can definitely understand your final point and sympathize with it.
I think it was just a combination of... misinterpratations from what was meant on both sides of this one. My apolgies for my part of it.
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It's my turn to appology as well. I kinda got really hot-headed after you'r first post and i'm sorry.
As for game ballance, truth is that all multiplayer pilots who just came from vanilla FS2 on SCP feels the diferences and most of our old thousand times played missions are buggy and some not even working. :( All the stuff like stronger shock waves and hits from ship-to-ship crashes are real blows to game ballance in most of old missions and completly changes balance in team vs team missions.
Well... i'll be away for next 2 weeks so i won't be able to contribute on this discussion more to make detail reports for all those issues etc but i'm sure you will somehow work it out with Cet. He's the best mission designer we even had on multiplayer atfer all so he knows the game best of us. :)
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Something tells me that I'll be asking him some questions, then.
And yeah, some of those shockwaves are really, really ugly.
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Sort of on topic, but not:
One AI behavior I have noticed that is EXTREMELY irritating is its use of Trebuchets against science vessels, AWACS, and other lightly armored ships. It's irritating because it makes them almost impossible to defend. When I treid replaying Warzone in FSO, the first mission was practicly impossible to beat because of that.
EDIT: Crap, Centanu beat me to it and I didn't see it. But seriously, does anyone have any ideas on how to fix this "little" issue?
But except for that problem, I like enhancements that make the game more challenging. This way I won't have the "easy is way too easy, but medium is almost impossible" problem.
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Open the mission in wordpad and search and replace Trebuchet with something else :D
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This is exactly the Trebuchets problem I was talking about some posts earlier - I just noticed it in multiplayer first, but its clear that cover missions in singelplayer are troubled with it too...
hehe @kara :D
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But like I have said before, sometimes you want it. I really think you could just delete them from the secondary bank in a mission file (not replace) and it should work just like it did.
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Yes, but if one wants it now that would make the mission an after-the-SCP version, no? I for sure don't want or need it for all the others - if there has to be anything edited, then best any new mission
In the last 5 years there was no necessity to win the standard FS2 singleplayer campaign with AI in Alpha or Beta using Trebs... neither for hostiles to use them against your ships... we learned here that some didn't even notice that Trebs didn't get used by AI
So maybe - Trebs not actively used by AI - should be seen as a feature and not as a bug. Maybe Volition figured out the devasting results Trebuchets caused by AI and disabled them? :D
Alpha1 doesn't even have a name, let him have player-only Trebs in old missions at least... ;)
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Is there a sexp in FRED2_Open saying something like:
AI will not use [weapon type] on [ships in mission].
I like the ability of the AI to use Trebuchets, it would make defending warships a bit more challenging. But as pointed out above, it could be a bit overwhelming if the AI starts lobbing Trebuchets at Faustus' and other slow and low hitpoint objects.
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http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,19985.0.html
about half way down or so, but i have the forums to show 50 posts/page
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Phreak, just how hard would it be to have all of the AI changes turn off from a mission flag? And I mean everything, back to the hapless FS2 AI. Seems to me that it would kill about 10 birds with one stone and still be easy to leave on.
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depends on how much we've changed
it has to be a mission flag though.
use new AI
use old AI
your choice
edit:
there have been 66 changes to AI.cpp which covers fighter AI.
here are some critical changes:
-ships intelligently choose primaries. for example they won't fire maxims at a shielded ship or a circe at an unshielded ship. this will up refire rate as well
-destroyed fighterbays won't launch fighters
-huge weapons will not shoot at bombs. we were getting complaints of people getting killed when they shoot a stiletto and they get killed by a anti-capital beam about a second later.
-bomber+ fix.
-if a missile shoots more than twice a second (IIRC) the AI will shoot as many as possible if a hostile is in range and in view.
-10% damage limit not a hard limit anymore
-turrets won't shoot cargo
-AI won't use guided missiles on asteroids
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Use old AI, it needs to be retroactive about 50% of the time. And a mission flag is actually advantageous; it can be batched quite simply to take care of balance-sensitive missions never intended for the new AI.
EDIT: Also, as these things were put in as bugfixes to the main campaign, I think we should treat them as such. A "use-new" flag would in some ways make more sense, but because it is only messing with mission balance selectively it seems that missions specifically exhibiting skewed balance could have the flag added. With a "use new AI" flag you'd need to add it to every mission, play test them all, and see what was broken and remove the flag where necessary; else you lose the AI bugfixing that was done to be compatable, at least in part, with the stock campaign.
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phreak i gotta say that few of those AI chances dont work so good
-ships intelligently choose primaries. for example they won't fire maxims at a shielded ship or a circe at an unshielded ship. this will up refire rate as well..this is 1 AIs do bound a living **** outta u with maxims even MAX shields on
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2nd thing which i hate is this kinda looses 1 valuable tactic i used plenty sacrificin 1 bank for stilettos and draw cap's beam fire on em so bombers can do they stuff oh yeah and i been gettin vaporized by BFreds doing that in SP that sucks cuz no respawns but in multi thats was tactical edge spam 13 still from boa with subsystem targettin off does make em highly powerfull "even mostpowerfull cap is sittin duck with no mainbeams"
-huge weapons will not shoot at bombs. we were getting complaints of people getting killed when they shoot a stiletto and they get killed by a anti-capital beam about a second later.
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but if u can get this -AI old -AI new tag thing work so it would be needed to add only in mission file that would be great but also then we loose all the good new parts in the AI code they tended to be nonchallengin,retarted time to time on multi while enemy AIs were 150%killin machines specially in games i hosted and thats something i still dont and never did understanded why my games were extra insane while other host it was walkin in park
and i did played quite alot on PXO so i know what i talk about
Cmdore. DW-Tepanator, 782,084, 44,199, 3,252, 28.14.59.
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The thing with the trebuchets and tempests is basically a bug, but some missions are designed for the AIs to shoot these weapons (I remember spending a lot of time trying to get the AIs to do this somehow, back in the pre-SCP days) while others were made assuming that the AI won't be firing that stuff. I have some missions that rely on the computer ships shooting these things so I would definitely want to keep the new code in, but it's a big problem to have old missions screwing up like that. Same goes for the beams counting towards kills, although this isn't as big of a deal.
I think it would have been a good idea to go through the missions individually and fix these little things if only the official missions were the problem but I bet there are also many fanmade missions designed for 1.2 that would suffer from this and going through all those would take far more work, so the mission flag looks like a good option.
The beam affecting shields thing is another similar issue. I still think that this should not be a command line but rather a mission or table flag; some missions are simply designed for the old system and others for the new one. Changing that sort of thing for any mission would frequently throw off game balance and would also obviously cause problems in multiplayer.
CP u tryed VA2 with 8 pegasi
just re verified that flyed nicely formed up and didnt took long until thoths started to fire aspectlock missiles and yes they are able to pick stealth only IF u flyed certain cone area tro theyr nose and close enough to smell pilot inside or firing weapons near em but still they were never able to lock&fire harpoons,torns or start trackin ya from over 2k range
hehe, it's been a long time since I played that. :) Most people used to send the AIs home immediately at the start of any TvT mission, so I never really saw what they did in that mission.
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CP that awacs2 was only a test to see theyr beheaviour in TvT
cant fly tvt alone u know :P or i can but too lazy mess with lan
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:cool: and I would just like to say I am using the 01082004 build now and apart from the few probs mentioned above, for the most part its fine...and returning to windows is normal now instead of the" slow motion, delayed reaction," we had previously. So welldone all of you, and thanks for all ur efforts....When are more of you SCP , HLP people going to come fly with us in multi ?!!
Cya in space ))
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Originally posted by PhReAk
-bomber+ fix.
So that's why the Port missions suddenly got so much harder.
Okay, there have been enough compatibility changes that this needs to be revisited. Instead of a mission flag, I suggest a command-line: use-old-ai or use-new-ai or something like that. Or, we could set up new AI entries in ai.tbl. We'll bring this up in the next SCP developer meeting.
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There is also probably a call for some compile time flags for various things. Some things that work excellently in single player, don;t in ultiplayer.
Any one exe can't be everything to everyone. It's not possible. There are competing issues here. There's a reason some games distribute 2 exes one for single, one for multi. It's possible we'll have to maintain more than one build (but only one code base). I have a problem with having too many command line arguments, as well, it becomes difficult to manage, so we might want to consider a configuration file to help with that instead of a bunch of -option stuff.
We should discuss this and the technical implications of these and various approaches very very soon.
As for "shooting the messenger" well, that's human nature. Try not to take it personally and we forum moderators will try to keep it to a dull roar. My apoogies ofr being away most of the weekend and missing these fireworks. Glad to see cooler heads prevailed (it seems).
Cet: I would also ask that you make an effort to use mantis. If you do;t, someoen else will have to type those bugs in, and that someone might be better used to actually fix the bug ;) (please note the smiley)
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it has to be a mission flag since command lines may not match if you are playing a multiplayer game. granted it shouldn't be too hard to get around it, but it would be much easier to have the missions designed with a certain AI in mind.
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@Goober
I don't think that using -options in the launcher is the right way to solve this - things like such fundamental AI behaviour and no-beam-pierce (like CP already said) shouldn't be something decided by the player since it unbalances missions radically, compared to options that only change the visual stuff
If it's left to the mission designer, flags in Fred2 should handle this quite well - similar to lets say the different tables used for Dogfight missions right now
edited: fully agree with PhReAk here... yeah! :)
@Inquisitor
I just roar too sometimes, mostly when someone jumps on my toes... I hope no one takes that personally as well ;)
Cheers! From Vet to Vet, hehe
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I was thinking, why not hard code something like the following into the AI:
If (shiphitpoints <= a certain amount)
then do not use Trebuchets
Is it a reasonable idea?
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Ugh. No.
Hardcoding anything is a bad idea.
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since we moved talk from pegasus stealth's to missiles could mention harpoons home like **** atleast when player fires em they just go tro AI's specially againts shivan and vasudan crafts while AIs got em again lethal.
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Originally posted by Cetanu
Missiles either work are are completely useless - while AI kills me with 2 Harps almost every time, I waste 8 on one Seraphis and hopefully 2 of them do some damage (my missiles hit in that case - I don't count all the evaded)
is already mentioned on my list on page 1 ;)
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come to think of it, I have noticed that a little too. Did you guys change the homing system?
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Last days I tested some multi missions and my conclusions do not differ much from those who already posted here.
In general the gameplay isn't the same as in V FS2, however I wouldn't describe all the strange events as bugs or bad improvements.
As mentioned above, some of them cause different gameplay and have incredible influence on some missions.
- First expierence (in "Breaking the Seal", a mission by Cet) was a slight touch by a Deimos to my Ares at mission start. Result: hull damage 100%. And I thought Ares isn't made of paper.
- Often a lot of secondaries are necessary to kill one hostile fighter. For instance 10 Trebs for a Basilisk (all of them direct hits), an entire bank of Harpoons for a Mara (most of them hit).
- I also noticed AI are more dangerous than in V FS2. This and the "Treb feature" (or better a feature changed to a bug) have bad influence on game balance.
I guess many new improvements are tested in singleplayer missions, but they have great effect in multiplyer missions. Some missions are not lost, they are LOST. Imagine you are in a multi mission and don't have best connection, in some cases you would give up to play that mission anymore.
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Okay, that's enough complaining. We know what the problem is, thanks to Phreak, and we know how to go about fixing it. We'll investigate this ourselves and post an update announcement when we decide what to do. Until this gets resolved, any multi threads that develop a hostile tone will be locked.