Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: Overlord on August 17, 2004, 07:41:24 pm
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Cockpits would be cool, or are they too difficult to code?
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I asked this to but anyways I don't have any of the links to the previous threads, they just said no.
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i've been thinking about doing something about it. but it gets pretty depressing since people ***** about wether it would be useful or not.
i need prozac
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I thought someone had already done it, Styxx or Venom(Nico)?
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Venom did a transparent cockpit to be added to fighter models... What Overlord probably wants is a 3D mesh for the cockpit from the inside, behind the HUD, like you have on I-War2 and other games.
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Originally posted by PhReAk
i've been thinking about doing something about it. but it gets pretty depressing since people ***** about wether it would be useful or not.
i need prozac
I'd use it!
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*carves a single tally mark into forearm*
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carve another one for me...
ouch
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In fact, PhReAk, I got an untextured cockpit model ready to go.
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If this is refering to a detailed 3D player cockpit, I think someone managed to cheat and make one, by having a separate pof for the player-view of the internal cockpit, and then using the chase view to get behind it. Unfortunately, this was done for TBP back on VWBB by an outside modder. I haven't seen him around in some time, and his web site hasn't been updated recently either.
Later!
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It was pretty easy to add in a 2D cockpit. Played around doing that tonight.
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Originally posted by Trivial Psychic
If this is refering to a detailed 3D player cockpit, I think someone managed to cheat and make one, by having a separate pof for the player-view of the internal cockpit, and then using the chase view to get behind it. Unfortunately, this was done for TBP back on VWBB by an outside modder. I haven't seen him around in some time, and his web site hasn't been updated recently either.
Later!
Venom also setup the Ezechial to the chase view would take place 'in' the cockpit, IIRC.
The only problem is that it's more bloody work! YAAAGH!
Etc.
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The chase view idea, while it works, is backwards and way more effort in the long run than simply permanently coding it into the game. Besides, wouldn't that mean your cockpit is hanging out behind the ship?
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
The chase view idea, while it works, is backwards and way more effort in the long run than simply permanently coding it into the game. Besides, wouldn't that mean your cockpit is hanging out behind the ship?
No.. I'm not sure how nico did it, but he wangled it so the chase camera was effectively sitting in the camera. Tbl values most likely.
Advantage is that you still have some of the HUD in chase cam now & the cockpit should be lit properly.
Obvious disadvatage is that it's a blantant fudge-job and that you have to look at a low-poly, low res mapped cockpit model.
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Hey Overlord, welcome to HLP. :)
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Thanks :)
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Originally posted by Overlord
Cockpits would be cool, or are they too difficult to code?
Step AWAY from the dead horse! *waves billy club*
Reallly, this has been done to death already.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Step AWAY from the dead horse! *waves billy club*
Reallly, this has been done to death already.
:wtf: :rolleyes:
Really cockpits would be really cool and add *a lot* to the immersion in the game. And don't come tell me it's unrealistic if you have a 3d cockpit and the HUD floats in the air not fixed to the cockpit screens. About every FPS game in existance has the same, a 3d gun and a 2d indicator for ammuntions and stuff and people don't run around and scream frantically, "This game sucks it has numbers floating around in the air while you run around it's unrealistic lololollol!!1!111oneone"
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3D Cockpit = Polys
more polys = more to render
more to render per frame = slower frame rate
You do the remaining maths.
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Originally posted by vyper
3D Cockpit = Polys
more polys = more to render
more to render per frame = slower frame rate
You do the remaining maths.
3d cockpit=about 100-1000 polies=nothing to a standard computer system. Lighting is correct. It's useable for any resolution.
You do the remaining maths.
:p
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Originally posted by vyper
3D Cockpit = Polys
more polys = more to render
more to render per frame = slower frame rate
You do the remaining maths.
OMG!!! WE HAVE TOO MANY POLIES!!111oneoneone How can we ever play with a cockpit?!?!? We only have 3 or 4 super-high poly ships already in teh media vp!!111oneoneonetwotwotwo
Come on, how much of a performance hit could 2000 extra polies ACTUALLY have? I'll accept the "it's too hard to code," but not the "it's too much of a performance drain." Come on, we've got high poly ships becoming standard fair, what's a cockpit that has a total polycount less than HALF of most of those ships gonna do?
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*sigh* how many times do i have to bring this up?
(http://www.descent-freespace.com/goodies/gallery/cockpit/gtf0123.jpg)
do you see the HUD there? in-game, that's taking up the whole screen. that's why a cockpit wouldn't make sense.
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Yeah, and we keep ignoring it!:p
And that's one fighter cockpit out of all the ships in FS. And what about WC Saga? And TBP? And TAP? I'm sure there are enough non FS mods out there that could make good use of that feature.
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I'm pretty sure someone just stuck that in the picture to look cool. The HUD has way too large a FOV to be that size in the cockpit.
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Boy, who needs a HUD?! Cockpit ROCKS :lol: :D
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Originally posted by Carl
*sigh* how many times do i have to bring this up?
(http://www.descent-freespace.com/goodies/gallery/cockpit/gtf0123.jpg)
do you see the HUD there? in-game, that's taking up the whole screen. that's why a cockpit wouldn't make sense.
Um, it's about eye-candy, Carl. Besides, that's Freespace. There's about 20 TCs out there that could use this, not to MENTION that it would be cool enough alone to have an FS cockpit in Freespace
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:doubt:
I guess it could work if you had both a regular view and cockpit view. You can use the cockpit view to see what's going around you or whatever while you can use the regular view for your classic dogfighting. Kinda like F22 Lightning II for those who played it.
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make it completely optional and off by default. then people who want to use it, like me, can turn it on and everyone else can leave it off and stop complaining about it.
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Everything has got to be 3D? We are working just fine with a 2D overlay. You can add and remove it with a push of a button.
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Um, there's no doubt how much better a 3D panel can be over a 2D one. And a 3D panel with 2D buttons (as textures) would be even better.
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Don't forget lightning effects.
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Oh and after that, lets do cockpit reflections... I don't know, If it's worth the trouble, especially with the game already out of perspective, although Ferrium could implement this
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SCP already has all the mappings that could make a decent cockpit - reflection/enviroment, diffuse, shine, glow mapping.
Bob recently showed us his awsome shadowing algorythm.
Bubpmapping is among the plans - so is overexposure.
So graphicaly SCP is up to the challenge.
It IS optional just like almost everything else with SCP.
The CODERS will have to tell hard it would be to implement.
It WON'T be too much of a resource drain.
Check out Mechwarrior 3 - the cockpits are pretty low-poly. What makes them exceptional is the awsomely done textures.
SCP already has a wast array of mappings to make the best out of it.
BTW a 3D cocpit offers a lot more than a 2D overlay, such as: padlock view, animated pilot model, acceleration effects
...and how about sniping a ship for yourself in drydock or in-launch? A very precise hit with a sniper weapon could blow the pilot leaving the ship undamaged - of course it wouldn't work if the shields are up, or if you didn't hit him through the acces hatch (roughly 30cm across).
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Originally posted by jdjtcagle
Oh and after that, lets do cockpit reflections... I don't know, If it's worth the trouble, especially with the game already out of perspective, although Ferrium could implement this
You'd rather see it in SCP than in Ferrium I daresay.
SCP should be able to do exactly that as it is already. All that's needed is the code to allow for 3D modelled cockpits.
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[q]OMG!!! WE HAVE TOO MANY POLIES!!111oneoneone How can we ever play with a cockpit?!?!? We only have 3 or 4 super-high poly ships already in teh media vp!!111oneoneonetwotwotwo[/q]
Congratulations you just got lazy.
The point I'm making is that i'd rather those 100-1000 polys were spent on making the actual other ships, planets, et al look better. Remember, it doesn't sound much until you add it to everything else. 100 polys can make the difference between a smooth frame rate and a stuttery one depending on the system.
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for people who would have performance problems, the option to turn it off would be just one mouse-click away! w00t!:p
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*sigh*
again cockpits.
someone really has to code it just to avoid reding a new cockpit thread in future:p
meanwhile the coders work, someone who really badly need it could render a 3d cockpit and overlay a 2d image to the hud.
btw give this option to the modders who want to do it.
Don't ask me to do them till you start paying me:p
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Originally posted by KARMA
*sigh*
again cockpits.
someone really has to code it just to avoid reding a new cockpit thread in future:p
meanwhile the coders work, someone who really badly need it could render a 3d cockpit and overlay a 2d image to the hud.
btw give this option to the modders who want to do it.
Don't ask me to do them till you start paying me:p
Problem is that it'd have to use the HUD palette which woul look absolutely weird if the struts have the same color as the HUD and are transparent in parts.
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Originally posted by Carl
*sigh* how many times do i have to bring this up?
(http://www.descent-freespace.com/goodies/gallery/cockpit/gtf0123.jpg)
do you see the HUD there? in-game, that's taking up the whole screen. that's why a cockpit wouldn't make sense.
In order for that HUD to take up the entire view, you'd have to be sitting with your nosed pressed against the glass.
Now that doesn't make sense.
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Originally posted by Lynx
Problem is that it'd have to use the HUD palette which woul look absolutely weird if the struts have the same color as the HUD and are transparent in parts.
not really, the coders already said that they were ready to put in game whatever 2d cockpit image was created, they just didn't implement it because nobody created those images, but everything should be already there sitting for someone interested in this..
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2D cockpits are so much UGLIER than 3D ones. Sure, they have more detail, but 3D ones have an immersion factor that can't be matched by 2D ones. Just play Jane's F-15 and compare it's 2D cockpits with Jane's F/A-18 ones.
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Hmmm it always boils down to the 2D/3D thing :(
I suppose from my own point of view, my concern would be positioning of dials/radar etc? On a 3D model, I'm assuming you would have to assign hud images to certain surfaces, which would then be layered over the UV map? Whereas a 2D cocpit could be defined using the stuff WM has already added to the HUD code?
2D ones would be easier to implement for the coders point of view, but 3D ones would look cool, especially with glow/spec mapping etc. :)
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you know, there isn't much difference between a static in game render of a 3d object and a 2d render of the same 3d object:p
the differences would be
1- glow/spec/lightning. Expecially glowmaps could turn pretty cool if stencil shadows could be applyed to 3d cockpits too
2- moving objects (like a cloche moving as you move your joystick)
3- rotating the point of view
Said that, I'm not saying "ehy we can have 2d cockpits, we don't need 3d ones then", I'm just saying "somebody should make a 2d cockpit while waiting for 3d ones to be implemented". It's just a render afterall...
it's a shame that nobody did a 2d cockpit so far althought coder's requests, if you really need to increase the immersive factor, a 2d one would have been a light years step above what we have alredy...which is nothing...
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[q]someone really has to code it just to avoid reding a new cockpit thread in future[/q]
If I knew php... :p
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Originally posted by vyper
[q]someone really has to code it just to avoid reding a new cockpit thread in future[/q]
If I knew php... :p
Classic :lol:
(fs2_open is coded in C++) ;)
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Originally posted by Flipside
Hmmm it always boils down to the 2D/3D thing :(
I suppose from my own point of view, my concern would be positioning of dials/radar etc? On a 3D model, I'm assuming you would have to assign hud images to certain surfaces, which would then be layered over the UV map? Whereas a 2D cocpit could be defined using the stuff WM has already added to the HUD code?
2D ones would be easier to implement for the coders point of view, but 3D ones would look cool, especially with glow/spec mapping etc. :)
Both could be implemented :p
You can pretty much fake most things with the 2D ones as well, though. Lighting can be simulated with a hue and brightness overlay, with normal glowmap support.
Both methods have advantages and disadvantages.
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
Classic :lol:
(fs2_open is coded in C++) ;)
Um... I think he meant changing the forums to skip cockpit threads.....
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Oh.
:nervous:
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eheh, port fs into php plz, I want to play it via browser :lol: :p
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FS in Flash? JavaFS? :nervous:
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I don't think 2d cockpits are a good idea because of the HUD. Sure you could edit HUD tbl so that everything is at the right place(screen) but that would force you to use just one cockpit for every single ship, which would be less believeable than no cocpit at all(unless you could specify the cockpit image for each ship in the ships.tbl or somewhere else, plus the HUD gauge positions in HUD.tbl or something. A 3d one would be better since it's obvious there taht the gauges aren't physically connected to the cockpit. We are used to that already from most other spacesims8Wing Commander Prophecy, X-Wing Alliance, I-War2 etc). You can use an aexplanation like that the gauges get projected on the glass of the cockpit, or on the Helmets visor or something like that and get away with it which is not possible with 2d ones where you have to align the gauges exactly not to make it look like two 2d pictures which are just badly overlayed over each other because of the flatness of a 2d picture).
Thus said, i don't really care if we get 2d or 3d cockpits as long it allows some customization for each ship.:)
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A cockpit in FS2 = more eye candy and less efficiency/performance.
I want to see my target and not the car radio ;)
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I think the main benefit of cockpits, which seems to have been overlooked, is that we'd have a way to make the ship visible to the player... i.e. you have a nice fighter with the canopy set back in it... but you can't see the nose. Or the wings. Or anything.
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Behold!
(http://www.scifi-3d.de/wcsaga/Viper/Cockpits/Cockpit_Thud.png)
This is a screenshot from a game made in 1994. imagine that in 3d+SCP glory!:cool:
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Originally posted by aldo_14
(http://www.descent-freespace.com/goodies/gallery/cockpit/gtf0123.jpg)
In order for that HUD to take up the entire view, you'd have to be sitting with your nosed pressed against the glass.
Now that doesn't make sense.
ROFL! Anyone who says that pic makes a cockpit 3d view impossible should go look at the extreme closeup shots of the Terran-Vasudan Shield Test Cutscene and the guy at the communications station on the GTI Riviera in Ross 128. the screens on those REUSE FREESPACE 1 INTERFACE OPTION MENUS FOR THEIR BACKGROUND SCREENS.
In other words, I firmly believe that Volition got lazy and decided that if they just used a screenshot of the HUD as the lil RETICLE on the doomed Apollo pilot's cockpit, nobody would notice. Dead wrong, and now you guys are taking a SHORTCUT as canon. ROFL!
While you're at it, why don't you say that SHIP CONTROLS AND DETAIL OPTIONS are necessary to a Terran-Vasudan test of a shield generator in the OTHER cutscene...LOOK AT THE ICONS BELOW! LOOK AT THEM! These cutscene screenshots prove NOTHING!
(http://www.descent-freespace.com/goodies/gallery/cutscenes/lab0427.jpg)
Look closely above, you can see recognizable interface icons. That is NOT a coincidence.
And over here, we have proof that the GTA "used Microsoft fonts to designate enemy ships on their command briefings" (look at "taranis") --- i suppose now you're going to say THAT's canon too?
(http://www.descent-freespace.com/goodies/gallery/cutscenes/cb1830.jpg)
And finally...you're missing a real good one...
(http://www.descent-freespace.com/goodies/gallery/cutscenes/pil1522.jpg)
THAT AINT THAT FAR FROM HIS HEAD
I'm sick of the excuses for why it shouldn't be added, someone should add it anyway regardless. Starlancer has it, Freelancer has it, X2 has it, X1 had it, X-Wing had it, TIE-Fighter had it, X-Wing VS Tie Fighter had it, Red Faction 1/2 had it, EVEN DESCENT 1/2/3 HAD IT! Anyone who argues against 3D cockpits needs to seriously wake up to the fact that FreeSpace 2 is one of the few space sims out there that DOES NOT have a 3D cockpit.
As far as its usability is concerned, I call for a 3D cockpit with actual working readouts and none you cant actually use. Nothing peeves me more than a 3D cockpit with tons of useless buttons and readouts. Makes me feel like I'm flying a toy. As such, if someone wanted to model the Apollo's cockpit after the pic way above, I won't accept it unless they find a use for almost EVERY readout displayed on it and relegate the reticle in the center to what it is: A RETICLE. NOT A HUD. GET THAT THRU UR HEADS, the one in the cutscene is A TARGETING RETICLE, NOT THE HUD, no matter what we recognize it as.
Are there any disbelievers in 3D cockpits now who dare to use that stupid cockpit picture as "proof" against them?
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Yelling isnt going to get you anywhere, nor is demanding. I think that the demand for the feature is large, but I will definitely not use it.
1. I have trouble running FSOpen as it is, 100-2000 polys DOES make a difference to me.
2. It just isnt real Freespace. Remember, the dudes that made Descent made Freespace. And if they wanted it in there, Im sure they could have easily done it. They meant it to be this way. Are we really ready to change the one thing constant through the entirety of both games?
3. Most features of FSOpen are made by people who want to see them in there. If the coders dont want to do this but you do, learn C++ and code it yourself. Remember how hard these guys have to work, and that they arent slaves to the will of the community.
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THe simple reason why it hasn't been added is that nobody sees it as being worth the effort. It's not about canon crap, or it being 'real' Freespace, or whatever. It's simply that nobody wants to spend their time working on a feature like this and have nobody, or very few people, make use of it.
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btw xwing, tiefighter, and xwing vs tiefighter did use only a 2d cockpit, and not a 3d one.
Anyway... as said I'd like to see this implemented, just to see what venom will throw out from his hat this time:)
but what WMC said is right.
Only few ppl can do a 3d cockpit worth of all the coders efforts, and if we have to take the number of 2d cockpits released so far (none) as an index of how many ppl will work on 3d ones then there isn't much to be optimistic.
Again, I'd still like to see both 2d/3d cockpits implemented as I'd like to see ppl working on them and not just talking about them:p
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Karma's right. This arguement always goes something like this.
Member 1 : Why don't we have cokpits!!!!!!111
Lots of arguments about the merits of 2D vs 3D cockpits
SCP Coder : Make us a cockpit and maybe someone will code it in.
Thread dies.
If you want a cockpit get off your arses and make one. Actually make more than one so that the coders can check the differences. Only then will the coders actually have something to work from. If you can't be arsed to make a cockpit to get the feature added to the game you don't give any of the coders reasons to believe that you'll be arsed to do it after they are added.
There are lots of SCP features that people have barely touched after they were added. *Looks at glowpoints and persistant variables* I'm doing my damnest to prove to Goober that PV's weren't a waste of his time to code by using them but when it comes to this topic everyone goes "Yeah. They're great!" but when the time comes to prove that they'd be worthwhile no one is willing to do anything.
So my basic message is makes some new cockpits or shut the f**k up :p
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Thanks, karajorma. :) (You know, I'm wondering if we should make you the official SCP spokesman, or something similar. :p)
This is the kind of thing that happens all the time. It's getting so that I'm focusing more and more exclusively on the features that I know I myself will use, or TVWP will use, so that I know the effort doesn't go to waste.
There's nothing that discourages a coder more than spending tons of effort on a feature everyone's been clamoring for and then never hearing about it again.
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Heh, I'd do a cockpit if i had the time. Right now I don't have the time, but it wonn't stay that way. Or I could ask someone who has a ton of 3d cockpits to lend it to us for testing purposes.;)
BTW I want glowpoints for most of our capships in WCS. That feature isn't overlooked in any way. I jsut have to figure out how to use them.
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Originally posted by Lynx
BTW I want glowpoints for most of our capships in WCS. That feature isn't overlooked in any way. I jsut have to figure out how to use them.
They're not that hard. I gave them a try soon after they came out and I managed to get a series of blinking runway lights up and running in about 10 minutes. :D
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Originally posted by karajorma
Karma's right. This arguement always goes something like this.
Member 1 : Why don't we have cokpits!!!!!!111
Lots of arguments about the merits of 2D vs 3D cockpits
SCP Coder : Make us a cockpit and maybe someone will code it in.
Thread dies.
For, um, the billionth time: I have an untextured cockpit ready! Just give me the ability and I'll put it in!
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When that happens, time will cease to exist.
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
For, um, the billionth time: I have an untextured cockpit ready! Just give me the ability and I'll put it in!
Texture it then. You'll never impress anyone with an untextured cockpit.
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Nico has a very nice cockpit.
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Originally posted by karajorma
Texture it then. You'll never impress anyone with an untextured cockpit.
You wanted a cockpit for test implementation, correct?
And anyway, Deepblue's right. Nico has a very nice completed Freespace cockpit, so ask him as well.
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once we have a real cockpit, we could put things on screens, or at least make them look like theyre on screens, like the orbradar could be in a real orb... that will probably never happen
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
You wanted a cockpit for test implementation, correct?
And anyway, Deepblue's right. Nico has a very nice completed Freespace cockpit, so ask him as well.
I'm not the one trying to get this feature implemented. You want it. You ask him :p
Basically I was just saying what the people who want this feature need to do if they want the coders to implement it. An untextured cockpit isn't going to pursuade them that you're going to use the feature because if you can't texture it now there is little reason to believe you'll be able to texture it later either.
Anyway since my advice doesn't seem to be be understood or appreciated I'll let you all chase your tails for a few more days until the thread dies in exactly the same burst of inactivity that the other ones did.