Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: capsfan9803 on August 21, 2004, 05:50:53 pm
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Yeah, you may remember me as the guy with the Intel Extreme Graphics Processor.
Well, congratulate me, cause im getting a new card.
Do you recommend a Radeon 9200 or Stealth S80 128 MB card (which is about $20 cheaper)?
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Never buy the cheaper one :D
as games get more advanced, you want to get the most up-to-date card as possible
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Radeon 9800 or x800 :p
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Originally posted by jdjtcagle
as games get more advanced, you want to get the most up-to-date card as possible
True, but the Stealth is run by Radeon technology, so i just wanna make sure.
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I don't know much about Stealth, actually I never heard of it :p
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Tada (http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?sku=A0364638&c=us&l=en&cs=19&category_id=2999&page=external)
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don't get it from Dell
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I don't know... If I were you, I would throw a few "extra" dollars in other than getting a cheaper card.
My Radeon 9600SE was 100-130$ and it's pretty cool. Though I already regret not getting a 9800, just because its still not enough to run FSO completely smooth with all features
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All i want is something that'll let me use SCP in the first place:-P
Ooh, also question: when it says i need a PCI slot, does that mean that i need the slot inside the computer (which i can do) or some kind of a bay?
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get a radeon (especially don't get that cheapo! it's a PCI!)
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The Raedon needs something called an AGP slot...which i don't know if i have. Yeah, sorry for being relativley computer-hardware-illiterate
...i can make websites good...
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what processor do you have? (_every_ computer made this millenia has AGP - it's Accelerated Graphics Port)
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I'm hardware illiterate...
Once I got my card, I hired someone else to put it in...
I just speak from experience that the cards (even though there a huge step up for you) will be pretty much obsolete not too long, which means even more money.
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Originally posted by Kazan
what processor do you have? (_every_ computer made this millenia has AGP - it's Accelerated Graphics Port)
Pentium 4
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then you most CERTAINLY have an AGP port
look inside your computer - see the little brown slot
(http://www.bodnara.co.kr/review/preview/03mbd/ic7/agp.jpg)
(http://www.tweak.pl/ilustracje/kt333_kt400/lite/agp.jpg)
(http://www.3dnews.ru/documents/6759/agp.jpg)
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...yeah...not so much...:doubt:
I have the white PCI ports, but not the brown one. sigh.
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Time for some serious upgradin lad.
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um.. there are not pentium 4 motherboards without AGP to my knowledge
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maybe Dell is stupid enough to not have AGP ports, or maybe it isn't brown in his computer (unless, of course, there's a rule that they have to be brown), or it could be hidden by some wires 'n stuff.
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Originally posted by Kazan
um.. there are not pentium 4 motherboards without AGP to my knowledge
With Dell, anything is possible.
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Yeah... If he has a dell, there is a really good chance it's more custom than we thought
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The branded PCs usually have little quirks like missing expansion slots and the like. It keeps them cheap to produce (especially the family PC baseline crap they churn out).
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Yeah, this sucks. There's a rectangle on the motherboard above the PCI slots that looks like it's where the AGP should be from Kazan's pictures, but there's nothing there.
Guess i'll just find the best PCI-compatible card i can...thanks anyways, guys.
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Originally posted by Kazan
um.. there are not pentium 4 motherboards without AGP to my knowledge
I know of a few. My friend has one without the AGP. And he wants to get DOOM 3!!! :lol: :lol: I make fun of him all the time. :D
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http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-102-360&depa=0 (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-102-360&depa=0)
R9200 is PCI. :wtf:
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Oh. Well...ok.
wtf mate?
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R9200 has a PCI-compat edition
R9200 is AGP
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Do you mind telling me what the difference is? :)
AGP is alot better I persume?
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AGP is MASSIVELY faster and it's a dedicated video card technology
AGP1 is 2x the speed of PCI
AGP2x is 4x PCI
AGP4x is 8x PCI
AGP8x is 16x PCI
i run 8x
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Don't get a Radeon 9200. They're slower than a Radeon 9100 and are also more expensive, although the 9100 is discontinued.
You can still get 9100s though:
Froogle Search for Radeon 9100s (http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=radeon+9100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wf)
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As a general rule, always get the card "Built by ATi", and not the one "Powered by ATi".
At least the former you get good support. My brother once sent in his 9500 Pro in for replacement/repair 2 or 3 times in as many weeks, and the ATi guys kept sending him a new or fixed one.
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what was your brother doing to those poor cards! ATI cards rarely have problems
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You should be able to find an FX5200 PCI fairly cheaply, maybe an Ultra even. Just bear in mind, PCI cannot match the available bandwidth of AGP, so even if you have exactly the same setup as someone but their card is AGP, they will have better performance. That said, I'm running a PCI solution and have no major complaints, you just can't crank things up.
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Yeah, just remember, i dont have a AGP slot. So that's not an option for me (and no im not going to upgrade my motherboard).
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Originally posted by Kazan
what was your brother doing to those poor cards! ATI cards rarely have problems
Well, the card itself wasn't the problem. My brother had bought a new system with an ASUS P4C800E-DLX motherboard as its base. Now apparently some of the 9500 Pros (as denoted by their serial numbers) are not suitable for that board. So he kept plugging them in and they kept getting messed up.
It wasn't until after the second fiasco when I went through the motherboard's documentation that we discovered the error, and so my brother was finally able to request a 9500 Pro of the suitable type.
On a side note, while this entire episode was occuring he used my 9000 Pro instead. As my computer had a heart attack everytime I downgraded to my Rage 128 (you can imagine how many times I got back my 9000 Pro with the belief that the problem had been fixed only to find it had not and being forced to give the 9000 Pro back) I finally got fed up and bought myself a 9600 Pro so that the 9000 Pro could remain in reserve. (As further compensation for my troubles, he bought me SimCity 4 Deluxe Edition.)
So now my brother has a working 9500 Pro (lucky duck) and I have a 9600 Pro (not so lucky duck). And I hope my brother will upgrade his graphics card soon so I can inherit that 9500 Pro...
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Originally posted by capsfan9803
Yeah, just remember, i dont have a AGP slot. So that's not an option for me (and no im not going to upgrade my motherboard).
If it's a P4 w/o an AGP slot, isn't it remotely possible that it has PCI-X?
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sandwich: no - not from Dell
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I know lots of people that are having the same problem as you. It seems that if you dont initially order AGP graphics from dell you dont receive a AGP slot. Its one of dell's corner little corner cutting schemes. You prolly bought the cheapest model dell made (~$600). Dont expect much from those computers unfortunately. Most only have 128 MB of RAM too which is totally stupid. Check out my computer site at http://spartancomputers.cjb.net (http://spartancomputers.cjb.net) and read the article on "why buy from us." There I have mentioned all of the disadvantages of getting dells, compaqs, hps etc.
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I'd just like to mention that i love my computer, aside from the graphics card. So don't feel sorry for me or anything.
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Originally posted by Kazan
um.. there are not pentium 4 motherboards without AGP to my knowledge
Originally posted by IceFire
With Dell, anything is possible.
[color=66ff00]My friend was going to buy a new card to play Doom 3 on and he was most annoyed to find out that the board had no AGP slot.
A Dell.
[/color]
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technically the boards do have AGP - they just didn't install the connector
very assholish on the part of dell
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Originally posted by kv1at3485
Well, the card itself wasn't the problem. My brother had bought a new system with an ASUS P4C800E-DLX motherboard as its base. Now apparently some of the 9500 Pros (as denoted by their serial numbers) are not suitable for that board. So he kept plugging them in and they kept getting messed up.
It wasn't until after the second fiasco when I went through the motherboard's documentation that we discovered the error, and so my brother was finally able to request a 9500 Pro of the suitable type.
On a side note, while this entire episode was occuring he used my 9000 Pro instead. As my computer had a heart attack everytime I downgraded to my Rage 128 (you can imagine how many times I got back my 9000 Pro with the belief that the problem had been fixed only to find it had not and being forced to give the 9000 Pro back) I finally got fed up and bought myself a 9600 Pro so that the 9000 Pro could remain in reserve. (As further compensation for my troubles, he bought me SimCity 4 Deluxe Edition.)
So now my brother has a working 9500 Pro (lucky duck) and I have a 9600 Pro (not so lucky duck). And I hope my brother will upgrade his graphics card soon so I can inherit that 9500 Pro...
Why hasn't your brother tweaked it to a 9700? the 9500 is basicly a 9700 tweaked.
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Originally posted by Ace Pace
Why hasn't your brother tweaked it to a 9700? the 9500 is basicly a 9700 tweaked.
I'm not sure if he's 'tweaked' the 9500 Pro or not.
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Originally posted by Kazan
um.. there are not pentium 4 motherboards without AGP to my knowledge
Not mainstream. Some of the cheapest OEM models have no AGP slots (some Dell, HP's, etc).
EDIT: But at least Dell isn't that bad with their laptops. For desktops I always build my own.
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Originally posted by Ace Pace
Why hasn't your brother tweaked it to a 9700? the 9500 is basicly a 9700 tweaked.
IIRC, that depends on if the 4x2 (4 top, 4 bottom) memory chips are laid out in an "L" shape around the GPU, or arrayed in a straight line. Straight line means a physical bus width of 128 bits, which sucks. "L" shaped means a physical bus width of 256 bits, limited by a BIOS setting to 128 bits, and thus changable.
IIRC, YMMV. :D
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Originally posted by kv1at3485
I'm not sure if he's 'tweaked' the 9500 Pro or not.
you are confusing with the radeon 9500 NON PRO, pro cant be tweaked to 9700pro, something to do with the pipeline. beside to even O/c the 9500/9700 series is a headache, with those stupid bios protectiom.
radeon 9500 is the best buy i ever bought till now, and when i found out 9600 is a bit slower i was even happier. it was fater than 4600 at the time, and when the fx series came out it was faster than the "great" fx 5600. and it only cost 1200 NIS(300$~).
holds doom3,farcry,GRound control. all on high in my crappy computer. 2 bad they stop producing it:(
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Scew AGP! PCI Express is the way to go! :p
Im waiting to get a motherboard with PCI Express technology its said to be faster than AGP. :D
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Originally posted by IceFire
With Dell, anything is possible.
*shudder*
I believe the same thing happened to a mate of mine.... stuck with a nice integrated Intel gpu piece-of-****e in a Dell machine his dad bought. Poor sod.
(Actually, i'm on a Dell laptop at the mo. Didn't buy it though.)
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Originally posted by Falcon
Scew AGP! PCI Express is the way to go! :p
Im waiting to get a motherboard with PCI Express technology its said to be faster than AGP. :D
PCI-e will be faster in the end, but right now, there is no differance you can see, as all games are used to storing everything inside the graphics card, and barely use the bus.
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yea well remember, alienware has teh dual pci-e comming out. :D
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Originally posted by ubermetroid
yea well remember, alienware has teh dual pci-e comming out. :D
It would be cheaper to wait for a Nforce4 motherboard, and get SLI.
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Dells tend to use custom hardware, and espescially on the ones with on-board graphics they omit the AGP slots. It's not that uncommon to see Dells and HP/Compaqs with 3xPCI slots and no AGP.
As for the replacement graphics card, forget about ATI - They don't make any PCI cards to my knowledge. (EDIT - Ignore that, there are ATI PCI Radeons available. I really should learn to read :D Well, live and learn ;))
nVidia do, but they are VERY hard to find, and actually cost a fair bit. You can't get high-end versions within a line on nVidia PCI, but the lower-speed ones should be fine. (e.g. you could get a Ti4200 but not a Ti4600).
Your best bet will be mail-order, espescially the more specialist places. I don't know about where you live, but finding gear like that in a shop in the UK is almost impossible :(
As for the speed, don't worry about it. AGP is VASTLY overrated - Running my Ti4200 at AGP 1x with Sideband Addressing and Fastwrites OFF runs at almost the same speed as AGP 4x with SBA and Fastwrites ON!!
The only place it makes difference is load times (Because the textures get transferred faster) and on games with really high poly counts, and even then the speed difference isn't as bad as you'd think. The FPS extremes fair a bit different, but it doesn't affect the feel as much as you'd think...
I'm not saying AGP is a white elephant - the performance boost is there - But if tweak your game so that you can fit all textures in VideoRAM and the T&L is caching trangle data (Which most modern cards do IIRC) then the amount of data being thrown into your card will low enough that PCI can cope and you will still get 30+ FPS.
So despite going PCI you're not loosing out as much as you might think. Heck, a PCI Voodoo 2 still slaughtered the AGP TNT's in terms of FPS ;)
PCI-X looks promising but never underestimate corporations's ability to screw things up :(
But when it does come out, we'll have to essentially replace all our gear anyway so don't bother waiting.
Oh, and when it comes time for the next full-computer upgrade, build it yourself!!! :D
It is a VERY valuable learning experience :yes:
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Originally posted by ubermetroid
yea well remember, alienware has teh dual pci-e comming out. :D
I watch with interest on how they intend to do this - PCI-X only has 20 channels, and all PCI-X graphics cards are gonna need 16-channel slots.
The only I can see an SLI'd PCI-X setup is for OEMs to put TWO PCI-X controllers on-board.
And if they *do* go that way... well... I'm glad I'm not the poor git who has to design the motherboard. We could be seeing 12-layer boards!! :eek:
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Why was the R9600 slower than the R9500? I remember reading that it was cause of some changes ATI made that were better in the long run for the Radeon series but I can't remember what it was.
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Probably something to do with the render pipeline.
nVidia had a similar problem before - They made their pipeline more complex and it slowed down the card, and everyone dissed them for it.
When newer more complex games came out 'tho, it blew the older cards out of the water because it could do it's renders in 1-2 passes whereas older cards needed 4-6 passes.
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Originally posted by Cyker
I watch with interest on how they intend to do this - PCI-X only has 20 channels, and all PCI-X graphics cards are gonna need 16-channel slots.
The only I can see an SLI'd PCI-X setup is for OEMs to put TWO PCI-X controllers on-board.
And if they *do* go that way... well... I'm glad I'm not the poor git who has to design the motherboard. We could be seeing 12-layer boards!! :eek:
The second card only needs 4X lines.