Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: HotSnoJ on August 24, 2004, 06:08:03 pm
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Two Russian planes are missing, one apparently already crashed. 2nd missing.
sorry no news story ATM, just heard it in Fox News.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3596354.stm
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1148830,00.html
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http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=570898§ion=news
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this sounds a little more than suspect.
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And also an excuse for a russian Patriot Act ;)
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Russians don't need a PATRIOT act, they've got Putin: the walking, talking iron fist.
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I think he'd like a little more... just to keep up with his neighbours.
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Apparently, the one that vanished sent out a Hijack signal before they lost contact.....
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Chechens?
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Seems pretty likely.
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quite possible. And if it is, God help them, there's gonna be bloody reprisals.
anyone remember the theatre incident?
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They've denied it. Hmm...
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syncronised airplaine hijackings that result in the plaines crashing within three minutes of each other, no doubt the Chechens were in some way involved, but that is sort of the halmark of another well known terrorist group, but of course, they only want to kill Americans, they positively love Europe, so lets not even consider the posability...
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Originally posted by Bobboau
syncronised airplaine hijackings that result in the plaines crashing within three minutes of each other, no doubt the Chechens were in some way involved, but that is sort of the halmark of another well known terrorist group, but of course, they only want to kill Americans, they positively love Europe, so lets not even consider the posability...
You're making the mistake of regarding terrorist groups as discrete entities with no connection to each other. There are connections between most if not all Islamic fundamentalist terrorist groups, so saying 'Chechens' does not exclude Al-queda by any means. (NB: not to imply all Chechen rebels / terrorists are islamic fundamentalists)
However, the Chechens have been responsibly for multiple suicide bombing and the Moscow theatre disaster in recent times - who do you think is the most likely to be involved in terrorism against Russia?
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I think you made the mistake of not recogniseing sarcasm, I was implying it seemed to have the hallmarks of an Al Qeta atack, thog there is no doubt that it was carried out by some Chechen faction
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But I don't equate Chechen rebels with Al Queda. Whether you agree with it or not is another matter, but the fact is that the Russians are occupying Chechnya against the wishes of the people. They've got a country under occupation, while al Queda can't really be said to be fighting oppression (not counting the ideologic kind). They were formed by the US and Pakistan to fight off the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and that they did, but after that they were more or less an army without a cause.
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I thought that was the Taliban?
It always seemed odd to me that about a decade ago I was watching TV broadcast praising the 'brave' Taliban in their was against the oppressive Soviets. Funny how things swing around really.
If it is Chechen rebels, they are simply using phsycological tactics, using the same techniques as big Al serves only to draw international attention very very quickly.
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Originally posted by Rictor
But I don't equate Chechen rebels with Al Queda. Whether you agree with it or not is another matter, but the fact is that the Russians are occupying Chechnya against the wishes of the people. They've got a country under occupation, while al Queda can't really be said to be fighting oppression (not counting the ideologic kind). They were formed by the US and Pakistan to fight off the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and that they did, but after that they were more or less an army without a cause.
The Chechen rebels - or rather, the terrorists responsible for suicide bombings et al at the very least - want not just an independent Chechnya, but also one which is a Muslim country. This is something that would mesh very closely with the philosophy of Al-queda, would it not?
Also, I'm sure there have been various reports of activites in Afghanistan, etc, where Chechens have either been involved in the fighting, or have been training alongside al-queda members / in al-queda training camps. (The latter case is somewhat inevitable, i guess - renting theses 'facilities' would probably be a good way of raising money on the quiet for Al-Queda).
Are you sure you can really put the existence of Al-queda solely down to Afghanistan, though? there have been Islamic terrorist groups for many years, owing to the Israel / Palestine situation.... i'm not sure how accurate it is to state that al-queda is formed solely as a result of the US forming a guerilla army in Afghanistan, even if that was a major component in creating the spiritual figurehead of the organisation.
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well, none of the present groups (Taliban, al Queda, etc) existed then as we know them now. AFAIK, it was mostly just "the mujahideen" and somewhere during/after the war, the distinct groups formed.
As for their tactics, well, I think that in the context they make sense. Chechnya is not nearly as well publicized as Palestine, so for one thing, most people don't even know that there is a conflict or that Russia is occupying anyone. And secondly, Putin is an authoritarian to be sure, and it seems to me is seeking for the bad old days of Russian power. Which means, he's not going to pull out because of a few protests here and there. Russia is strong enough, and Putin resolute enough to ignore any international pressure to withdraw, if there even was any such pressure, which there isn't. So, obviously, whats left then is to force a retreat militarily. Putin is about to finish his second term (I may be wrong, but I think Russia has a two term limit), so an election could make Checnya a prime issue for Russians, sort of like Iraq for America.
edit: scratch that, Putin has just *begun* his second term in May. my bad.
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I would hope that the fact that about five people own all the money would also get some attention.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
The Chechen rebels - or rather, the terrorists responsible for suicide bombings et al at the very least - want not just an independent Chechnya, but also one which is a Muslim country. This is something that would mesh very closely with the philosophy of Al-queda, would it not?
Also, I'm sure there have been various reports of activites in Afghanistan, etc, where Chechens have either been involved in the fighting, or have been training alongside al-queda members / in al-queda training camps. (The latter case is somewhat inevitable, i guess - renting theses 'facilities' would probably be a good way of raising money on the quiet for Al-Queda).
Are you sure you can really put the existence of Al-queda solely down to Afghanistan, though? there have been Islamic terrorist groups for many years, owing to the Israel / Palestine situation.... i'm not sure how accurate it is to state that al-queda is formed solely as a result of the US forming a guerilla army in Afghanistan, even if that was a major component in creating the spiritual figurehead of the organisation.
Well, from what I know, I would put down al Queda's formation primarily to Afghanistan. Other Islamic groups, like Hezbollah or Ansr al Islam, formed out of different conflicts and under different circumstances, but AFAIK, al Queda was born out of the Afghan conflict.
It seems to me that a rebel group fighting a power like Russia, and lacking any support from another great power (like the NVA in 'Nam or the mujahideen in Afghanistan etc) has nowhere to turn but to other militant groups, which seem to be predominantly Islamic throughout Asia. I think the example thats roughly comparable to Chechnya would be Iraq. A large power invaded, occupies, and the resistance in largely homegrown with a few fighters from surrounding nations. The Iraqo resistance has also carried out attacks on civilian targets (remember the UN headquarters), taken hostages and all that stuff. The Chechens have as much right to resist as the Iraqis.
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Originally posted by Rictor
Well, from what I know, I would put down al Queda's formation primarily to Afghanistan. Other Islamic groups, like Hezbollah or Ansr al Islam, formed out of different conflicts and under different circumstances, but AFAIK, al Queda was born out of the Afghan conflict.
Is it possible to give a specific, key reason for Al-queda (or any terrorist groups) formation? I don't know - but I always hesitate to say that one thing is the root cause. Moot point, regardless.
Originally posted by Rictor
It seems to me that a rebel group fighting a power like Russia, and lacking any support from another great power (like the NVA in 'Nam or the mujahideen in Afghanistan etc) has nowhere to turn but to other militant groups, which seem to be predominantly Islamic throughout Asia. I think the example thats roughly comparable to Chechnya would be Iraq. A large power invaded, occupies, and the resistance in largely homegrown with a few fighters from surrounding nations. The Iraqo resistance has also carried out attacks on civilian targets (remember the UN headquarters), taken hostages and all that stuff. The Chechens have as much right to resist as the Iraqis.
I'm sure about the Chechen side, but i am positive there will be more than one resistance/rebel/insurgent group operating in Iraq - i.e. terrorist/foreign fighters who launch suicide attacks, the likes of the Mehdi(spelling?) army, and more covert guerillas who operate via roadside bombs and guerilla attacks. Each of whom will have their own specific goals and reasons for fighting.
So I don;t believe you can put down attacks on the UN to be definitively the work of a resistance group, as oppossed to a terrorist group. Likewise bombings which have targeted religious/social groups (be it against Christians, Sunnis, Shias, or Kurds). for similar reasons, I don't think a resistance movement would take the approach of indiscriminately targeting civillians on their own side.... it's simply bad PR.
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Originally posted by Ford Prefect
I would hope that the fact that about five people own all the money would also get some attention.
I think you're reffering to the Oligarchs, a group of about 7 or 8 Russian Jewish businessmen.
Rather I should say there *was* 7 or 8 of them, becuase Putin took it upon himself to destroy them. Do you remember the Yukos incident a while back, when Mikhail Khordorovsky (sp?) was arrested and all his assets siezed? Yeah, he was one of the Oligrachs, and the richest man in Russia. After that, the rest of the group either fled or went underground. This is one of the only acts for which I think Putin ought to be commended.
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Originally posted by Rictor
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I think you're reffering to the Oligarchs, a group of about 7 or 8 Russian Jewish businessmen.
Rather I should say there *was* 7 or 8 of them, becuase Putin took it upon himself to destroy them. Do you remember the Yukos incident a while back, when Mikhail Khordorovsky (sp?) was arrested and all his assets siezed? Yeah, he was one of the Oligrachs, and the richest man in Russia. After that, the rest of the group either fled or went underground. This is one of the only acts for which I think Putin ought to be commended.
Wasn't Khordorovsky also one of the main financiers for the political parties that oppossed Putin?
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They (the oligarchs) were very closely connected to the Yeltsin government. It is suspected that they saved him from the coup attempt in '93, by building up his popularity enough to win the election (he was initally polling at around 5-7% IIRC) and financing his politcal campaign. Following the chaos after the collapse of communism, there was a period of general lawlessness, during which a few people got very, very rich in very, very dishonest ways. Privatization played a huge role in this, with well connected businessmen buying out government industries for practically nothing. Guess who those businessmen were? It is widely suspected that these guys were the true power behind Yelstin's regime.
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So is it confirmed or not if the Chechens were involved? Or even if it actually was a hijacking in the first place?
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Originally posted by ionia23
So is it confirmed or not if the Chechens were involved? Or even if it actually was a hijacking in the first place?
No - it's likely to be a while before they know.
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Yes, yes, I know they're called the Oligarchs, there's no need to patronize me; I was just using humorous hyperboles.
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I wasn't patronzining you, or at least I didn't intend to, sorry if it came off that way.
Hmm, 89 people dead total, which means that either these weren't very large planes, or they were mostly empty...yeah, just checked, 46 aboard one plane, and 43 on the other.
The Chechens are denying responsibility for this, and the Russian officials say that there is no evidence right now (I guess excluding the hijack signal) or terrorism.
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Yeah yeah. I dunno Rictor... I just don't know if our relationship is going to work out.
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Driving home this morning off work Howard Stern made fun of Tom Brokov (SP?) for mis pronouncing that town's name. It sounds like he is saying BUKAKKE!!!
I was laughing so damn hard and he replayd the clip like 10 times...
I Howard Stern Exclusive!
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Al-Qeada was formed, after the first gulf war, by mujahadeen who learned how to fight in the Afghan war, when we put troops in Saudi Arabia (aka that holy land) to defend it.
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Originally posted by Rictor
a group of about 7 or 8 Russian Jewish businessmen.
wait a sec... why was in nesicary to mention there religon? :wtf:
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Not necessarily their religion. It's probably their ethnicity. Not that that answers your question.
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Originally posted by Bobboau
wait a sec... why was in nesicary to mention there religon? :wtf:
yeah, as Ford mentioned, its ethnicity. Sort of like saying Arab Americans.
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040828/ap_on_re_eu/russia_plane_crash&cid=518&ncid=716
Quick update.... Chechen Nationalists, it seems....
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Lovely.
terrorism, it's a funny thing. Sometimes it works (Spain). Sometimes you just succeed in pissing your opponent off even more (Israel).
Time to see if Russia is going to solve the Chechen problem one way (recognition) or the other (genocide).
Anybody have any predictions on this?
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Has Putin got an election in the next 18 months? If not, I'd say
c) Business as usual
to be honest :(
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I don't get it at all.
I can see why Russia won't recognize Chechnya as independent. They've lost quite enough territories already. Makes sense. I suppose they feel about Chechnya being indepedent as we'd feel about, say, Rhode Island seceeding. Sure, it's the simplest solution from my own position of ignorance.
The other alternative, of course, is the not-necessarily unthinkable one. Say Russia decides the "mass extermination/explusion approach". They've certainly got the firepower to pull it off, and that's without their nuclear arsenal (no point in irradiating territory you want to annex).
No, i'm not encouraging it, just theorizing. What real consequences would Russia have to deal with? Condemnation from other nations? Big deal. That isn't going to influence squat.
Cynical as this statement is, who in any real position of power is going to care, short of say Al Quaeda?
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yeah, thats true. Putin just got re-elected in I think May, and this being his last term he can pretty much do as he wants. Ex-KGB, gassed a theatre full of civilians... I think we all know whats coming.
One thing I'm sorry for is that Chechnya gets almost no international media coverage. Iraq takes all the headlines, after that its Afghanistan and Palestine, and every once in a while, Chechya gets mentioned, only, and only when something like this happens. Their not much better off than the Palestinians, and yet there is hardly any coverage or international solidarity, much less than for Palestine.