Hard Light Productions Forums

Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Grey Wolf on August 27, 2004, 01:02:28 am

Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Grey Wolf on August 27, 2004, 01:02:28 am
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=18088
Apparently, Activision doesn't like Enterprise very much.....
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Knight Templar on August 27, 2004, 01:15:20 am
Taken two episodes off air? DS9 and Voyager went 7 seasons... and Voyager was stretching it at that. I don't know how much more metagamming B&B could do against the Borg before I exploded.

Why don't they make a game on Enterprise? I could see some nice "Elite Force" type potential, especially given Enterprise Season III, which has been the best trek since the end of DS9. However, in all fairness, Nemesis blew, hard.

meh.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ford Prefect on August 27, 2004, 01:16:04 am
Okay, Enterprise sucks so much that it generated a lawsuit.

Umm, Viacom has been sued because its show sucks so badly.

Errr, Activision has taken legal action because Enterprise sucks too much.


Nope, this needs no punch line.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Knight Templar on August 27, 2004, 01:31:13 am
Well, it's not so much that Enterprise sucks, but that it sucked.

I seriously think the third season made a big comeback, and could deffinitely bring the franchise back, provided they make sense of the stupid Alien Nazi junk. The only problem is, I'm betting a good deal of people thought after two seasons of mediocrity, "wow, this sucks, I'll go watch Fox instead." I know I did, and I didn't come back until I saw the Season 3 premire for the first time. So until Enterprise can make a bigger splash among the disenfranchised fans, I think it'll always be on the tetering line of doom.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Kosh on August 27, 2004, 01:45:15 am
This is rich.

Activision has produced several crappy Star Trek games (Armada and Armada 2 come to mind) and now they are sueing another company for making crappy Star Trek  tv shows/movies?
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Knight Templar on August 27, 2004, 01:48:23 am
Armada... crappy? It was one of the better Star Trek games. I could see Armada II maybe, although it was better than not having Armada II...

There are plenty of ****tier Trek Games. Hidden Evil. Dominion Wars. The Chess one...
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Kosh on August 27, 2004, 02:19:12 am
It could have been good, had it not have several technical problems.

You were definatly right about Dominion Wars. I tried the demo and it didn't even work right. It had potential, but it was pretty f***k'd up.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Sandwich on August 27, 2004, 02:45:58 am
Quote
Originally posted by Knight Templar
Well, it's not so much that Enterprise sucks, but that it sucked.

I seriously think the third season made a big comeback, and could deffinitely bring the franchise back, provided they make sense of the stupid Alien Nazi junk.


Amen. :yes: ;)
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Knight Templar on August 27, 2004, 03:02:29 am
Quote
Originally posted by Kosh
It could have been good, had it not have several technical problems.

You were definatly right about Dominion Wars. I tried the demo and it didn't even work right. It had potential, but it was pretty f***k'd up.


Yeah... I bought the game. :nervous:

While it actually worked for me, the fasion in which it worked was rather annoying. That is to say, the game sucked. Maybe I had it on easy or something, but basically all I did was click at the biggest ships and have my guys kill them first before they killed my guys. And if there were too many big ships, then I'd run away. However, when all is said and done, the game did produce the Achilles-Class, the coolest Starfleet ship next to the Sovereign and the Defiant.

On A Sidenote: It almost seems like you have to be a niche-startrek gamer to enjoy any of their games, bar maybe the first Elite Force. Most their games are admittedly subpar in comparision, but their real saving grace is that they are _Star Trek_ games, thus making them fun.

Example A: Birth of the Federation. Some people complain about how it was utterly confusing, boring, the tactical system sucked, it was nothing new, the interface blew, etc. I saw it as the first and only ST game that let you manage ST empires in an ST setting, and gladly read through the manual and accepted the ****ty tactical interface to play it. It's even fun to play with a friend, provided it doesn't crash, or you don't spend forever building up only to be crushed by a ('realistically') unstoppable Borg Cube.

Then again, I loved Star Wars Rebellion.

Example B: Armada. Apparently a good deal of people didn't like it, or thought it was buggy, or just not good. personally, the only problem I saw was the shortage of units (only 6 or so per side) and the fairly obvious and annoyingly uncannonical balancing of units. ( Negh'var = Warbird = Sovereign = Borg Cube = Jem'Hedar Destroyer ). However, the actual gamming factor, replay value, fun, and even story ranged from acceptable to nice for me. Which led to my dissappointment with Armada II. A2 being all the flashy things the devs forgot to include into A1. 20 ships per faction, everything dies almost instantly so battles are aplenty. Species 8472. Species 8472 plot to rule the galaxy, etc. Bleh.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Bri_Dog on August 27, 2004, 03:22:13 am
Starfleet Command was the best trek game
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Kosh on August 27, 2004, 03:43:52 am
In version 1.0 of Armada 2, the Borg Cubes were insanely powerful. Armada 1 did have some technical problems. The one I had, the sound was doing some wierd stuff on desktop (which has a SB Live).


I liked both Elite Force games. They were what most other Trek games should have been: bug free, stable, fun, interesting to non-trekkies (admittedly I am a bit of a trekkie), decent dialogue, decent plot, and good gameplay. Virtually all of the other Trek games were missing one or more of those things. I feel that Elite Force broke the "Star Trek gaming curse".

Bridge commander was good. I didn't think it was as good as FS or FS2, but it was what Dominion Wars could have been and should have been.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Bri_Dog on August 27, 2004, 05:42:17 am
BC had an AWSOME engine.....it's just that the game itself got boring...even with mods.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Xelion on August 27, 2004, 06:31:22 am
Ds9 The Fallen, now that is a great game :D and was also made ahead of its time.

Quote
theinquirer.net
GAMES COMPANY Activision is suing Viacom over a lack of any decent Star Trek.


:lol:

but its true what they said, Viacom needs to get things rolling :nod:
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Unknown Target on August 27, 2004, 08:09:16 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bri_Dog
BC had an AWSOME engine.....it's just that the game itself got boring...even with mods.



I thought BC was interesting and unique, but it did gfet boring, I agree. It's sort of boring to sit there and watch crewmembers shake around in their seats and a phaser shotting from your ship's ass hitting the enemy.

They could've added waaaay more tactical immersion into the game to make it more interesting, imho.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Anubis2k4 on August 27, 2004, 08:30:11 am
Quote
Why don't they make a game on Enterprise? I could see some nice "Elite Force" type potential

If you possess a copy of Star Trek Voyager Elite Force there is a total conversion mod in the works for an Enterprise single player game, theres already a three level teaser out, and it is a great game.  I'd reccommend anyone with a copy of Elite Force to head over to Elite Force Files (http://eliteforce2.filefront.com/)  and pick up the teaser, they're great levels.

And i'd love to see some more Voyager games out there, TNG sucked and it got loads of movies and games, its time for Voyager to have some.  It was the best series after all.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ace on August 27, 2004, 09:04:08 am
I'm not going to comment on what Anubis just said about Voyager...

Needless to say, there's been good Trek games (like the old TOS adventure game ones and Elite Force) and some bad ones.

I wish that the Secret of Vulcan Fury thing was actually finished and Interplay didn't kill it... oh well :p
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Tiara on August 27, 2004, 09:04:52 am
SFC III was a nice game. Nice campaigns, Awesomeness of flying Borg ships and Borg missions, Picard voice, Tal'Shiar operative missions, being a member of a Klingon house... Not to mention that it finally let you modify the entire layout of your ship (finally after 3 other SFC versions). Really, It made me feel like a part of the ST universe.

Quote
TNG sucked and it got loads of movies and games, its time for Voyager to have some. It was the best series after all.

:wtf:

You, sir, scare me. TNG owned (besides the first and 5th season). Have you ever seen Best of Both World Pt.1 & 2? Best. Episodes. EVAR.

The only thing I missed in TNG was an overall plot. But that wasn't the set up for the series anyway. The set up for the series was exploration and basically following the duties of a Starfleet sship throughout  it's service. And IMO they did a pretty good job.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Tiara on August 27, 2004, 09:05:58 am
Ow, and:

(http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2003/20030704l.gif)

:lol:
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Anubis2k4 on August 27, 2004, 09:27:32 am
Quote
Have you ever seen Best of Both World Pt.1 & 2? Best. Episodes. EVAR.

Actually, i'm not too sure whether i've watched it or not.  I have watched quite a few TNG episodes, mainly to see Patrick Stewart's brilliant portrayal of Jean Luc Picard, but the brilliance of TNG starts and ends with Picard.  
As for best episodes ever, many Voyager episodes are so much better than any TNG episodes.  Year of Hell parts one and two, Futures End parts one and two, Meld, Scorpion parts one and two,  Shattered, Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy.  The list goes on.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Tiara on August 27, 2004, 09:43:41 am
Quote
Originally posted by Anubis2k4

Actually, i'm not too sure whether i've watched it or not.  I have watched quite a few TNG episodes, mainly to see Patrick Stewart's brilliant portrayal of Jean Luc Picard, but the brilliance of TNG starts and ends with Picard.  
[/b]
I believe you have missed the continious growth of Data fro m being a certified android to an almost Human android. Ofcourse masterfully portrait by Brent Spiner.

Or Worf's issue's with the Klingon Empire. I always loved the fact that one man and his family could have suck a profound impact. The political intruide in an honor bound society was quite interesting.

etc etc.

BoBW is also mainly about Picard :)

Spoiler:
He gets assimilated into the collective and the crew of the Enterprise has to rescue hime. (Though thats very a simplistic summary.) The sheer atmosphere in this episode is just awesome. As is the cliffhanger :D

Quote
As for best episodes ever, many Voyager episodes are so much better than any TNG episodes.  Year of Hell parts one and two, Futures End parts one and two, Meld, Scorpion parts one and two,  Shattered, Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy.  The list goes on.

I admit, the Year of Hell was pretty damned good weren't it for the sdamned temporal cop-out. Made the entire thing just friggin stupid.

Scorpion sucked plainly because the Borg are uber pussified. Hell, they even negotiate. With Janeway no friggin' less. Puh-****ing-lease. TNG had the only real Borg in for example 'Q Who?'. They just scooped entire outposts of the surface of planets. They DIDn'T negotiate. They weren't constantly defeated by a single Intrepid class cruiser whereas in TNG they needed dozens if not hundreds of ships to even destroy a single cube.

Seriously, Voyager ****s up the entire concept of the Borg. Continuity is also nowhere to be found.

- I like the Doctor but franbkly he's just a Data rip-off. An artificial life-form trying to be Human.
- 7of9 is just an elaborate version of 'Hugh' from 'I Borg' in TNG.
- Chakotay and his weird ass spirit guide things need to be shoved out of an airlock.
- Janeway is the most hypocritical person ever to have served in Starfleet. She always claims to want to follow the Prime Directive but then proceeds to violate it a dozen times over 2 seasons for no apparant reason.
- Neelix. I mean, WTF!? Ambassador to the Federation!? He doesn't even know what it it. Moral officer? Again: WTF!?
- Voyager magically manages to ward off entire species that seek to destroy Voyager. Including the Borg.

The only good character in Voyager was Tuvok. Just because he played a very believable Vulcan.

But thats enough rmabling from me :p
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Corhellion on August 27, 2004, 10:04:21 am
Amen to the Tuvok thing!

But I liked Voyager cause...just...cause I liked the over all plot...DS9 was good...but...slighty hard to get into...the battles were good though.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Tiara on August 27, 2004, 10:18:58 am
Voyager overall is a nice series for the casual viewer. But when you put it in perspective with the rest of Trek, it's just :ick:.

DS9 had a bad first season. A kind of uber long intro to the series. but after S1 it picks up the pace real nice. :) DS9 and TNG are by far my favorite series in ST.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Hunter on August 27, 2004, 10:22:52 am
IMHO Starfleet Command, Starfleet Command II, Klingon Academy and Elite Force were the better Trek games of the last decade. Note that the first three came from Interplay.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Tiara on August 27, 2004, 10:27:14 am
Quote
Originally posted by Hunt Smacker
IMHO Starfleet Command, Starfleet Command II, Klingon Academy and Elite Force were the better Trek games of the last decade. Note that the first three came from Interplay.

SFC III is way better then I, II and OP IMHO.

You can refit your own ship by placing different weapons (phaser, disruptor, Pulse Phaser Cannon, Tachyon beam, plasma torpedo, Photon/Quantum torpedo, etc etc etc) on different hardpoints, buy better shielding for each arc, buy better transporters, tractor beams, warp core, thrusters, impulse engines, cloaking devices, computers, etc etc etc.

Then there is the pretty damned good 3-part main campaign. And the Borg campaign. It's fun  to play Borg and assimilate species :D

Not to metion the more balanced and improved gameplay. :)
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ford Prefect on August 27, 2004, 11:12:03 am
Okay, here is the truth about Star Trek: :D

- Enterprise started out with promise until a) the storyline turned into something on par with.... I dunno it just sucked, and b) Scott Bakula's acting failed to magically improve to an acceptable level.

- Voyager had some glaring faults, like the borg stuff and Captain Janeway sucking at life, but I thought overall it was acceptable. Not great, but okay. (Definitely had the best intro sequence.)

- TNG was the best series. Best captain, best loyalty to the original premise of Star Trek, best writing, and of course what's better than the Galaxy class?

- The best Star Trek episode ever was "The Inner Light", where Picard is rendered unconscious by a probe and lives out the entire life of a person from a lost civilization. (It won a Nebula Award, so it's not just me.)

- Armada does not suck!

- Elite Force was fun, but the dialogue was the second-worst I've ever heard. (The first being Hegemonia: Legions of Iron.)
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: karajorma on August 27, 2004, 11:14:48 am
Quote
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
- The best Star Trek episode ever was "The Inner Light", where Picard is rendered unconscious by a probe and lives out the entire life of a person from a lost civilization. (It won a Nebula Award, so it's not just me.)


I don't know. I liked that episode hugely but Best of Both Worlds is the only episode I have on video. :D

That said you're not the only person who thinks it the best episode.

http://stng.36el.com/st-tng/episodes/ratings/
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Tiara on August 27, 2004, 11:45:43 am
Quote
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Okay, here is the truth about Star Trek: :D

- Enterprise started out with promise until a) the storyline turned into something on par with.... I dunno it just sucked, and b) Scott Bakula's acting failed to magically improve to an acceptable level.

Coto did a pretty damned good job with writing S3. Brennan & Braga just had to **** it up in 2 seconds where they introduced the Nazi aliens. :doubt:

Quote
- Voyager had some glaring faults, like the borg stuff and Captain Janeway sucking at life, but I thought overall it was acceptable. Not great, but okay. (Definitely had the best intro sequence.)

Acceptable to the average viewer. Not to certified Trekkies like me :p

Quote
- TNG was the best series. Best captain, best loyalty to the original premise of Star Trek, best writing, and of course what's better than the Galaxy class?

Eh, Sovereign class?
(http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/GE-EQuantm1.jpg)
Akira class?
(http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/GAkira1.jpg)
Defiant class?
(http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/GDefPhaser3.jpg)
Nebula class with advanced weapons pod?
(http://www.ditl.org/gpns/GNebWarp1.jpg)
Steamrunner class?
(http://www.ditl.org/gpns/GStmGenral1.jpg)

One by one they all have a a WAY better design the the USS 'luxury liner' Enterprise-D.

Quote
- The best Star Trek episode ever was "The Inner Light", where Picard is rendered unconscious by a probe and lives out the entire life of a person from a lost civilization. (It won a Nebula Award, so it's not just me.)

Certainly one of the best but I still put BoBW on top because of the sheer atmosphere.

Quote
- Armada does not suck!

Amen!

Quote
- Elite Force was fun, but the dialogue was the second-worst I've ever heard. (The first being Hegemonia: Legions of Iron.)

Pretty much yeah :p
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ford Prefect on August 27, 2004, 11:58:21 am
You place all those ships above a Galaxy class??? *Dies*

The Galaxy's capabilities are only matched by the Sovereign class, but the Galaxy is better-looking. I wouldn't compare any of those other ships to it, especially the Defiant. It's a little gunship! To compare it to the Enterprise is heresy.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Tiara on August 27, 2004, 12:04:22 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
You place all those ships above a Galaxy class??? *Dies*

The Galaxy's capabilities are only matched by the Sovereign class, but the Galaxy is better-looking. I wouldn't compare any of those other ships to it, especially the Defiant. It's a little gunship! To compare it to the Enterprise is heresy.

1 Defiant would kick the Galaxy class's ass so hard... Only the War Galaxy would win. Defiant has speed, manoeuvrability and firepower on it's side. The Defiant is the first dedicated warship. It even killed a Negh'Var (largest Klingon battleship) in the mirror-verse. And that was just a pale copy of the actuial Defiant.

Anyway, the Galaxy class is just one aweful design. Especially seeing as it is involved in many combat situations. And for that it's obviously not suited. its suited for explortion and diplomatic missions, yes. Not for combat. And in TNG it sees a good deal of that.

Each and every ship I posted has a). A way more practical design b). A way more compact design (not a 'luxury liner' design like the Galaxy).

And I'm not even talking about the faulty warp core design in the Galaxy that makes it go critical every few weeks. :p
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ford Prefect on August 27, 2004, 12:11:44 pm
Every main Star Trek ship has to have a warp core that goes critical every few weeks. It's a necessary function for the continuation of the show!

And what do you mean not enought firepower? The Galaxy class has phaser banks coming out the ears! You never see most of them fired, but the Defiant's speed wouldn't make a lick of difference because the Galaxy could hit it from literally any angle.

Practical design? There's no such thing in Star Trek. The entire Starfleet was engineered to be pretty.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: ZylonBane on August 27, 2004, 12:51:42 pm
Although I've gotten mostly used to it by now, I'm still put off by the Galaxy class's cartoonish design. The oversized saucer section, the riced-out neon blue warp nacelles with the bright red cherries on top, the idiotic phaser strips (which existed only to allow that k-kewl "charge up" effect), the goofy "bullseye" navigational deflector... blah. It's a design aesthetic which flew in the face of all preceding Starfleet designs, and has notably been rejected by all subsequent Starfleet designs (Galaxy-class derivatives notwithstanding).
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Flipside on August 27, 2004, 01:01:27 pm
The Galaxy always looked to me like someone had put a tube into a Constitution and inflated it :(
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: StratComm on August 27, 2004, 01:01:30 pm
The Soverign rules because it's powerful, and it's got a nice sleek look.  The Galaxy is not nearly as powerful but has more functions better-suited to the purpose of star fleet: diplomacy, exploration, science, etc.  It can defend itself against almost anything if it's just one ship, but it seems to have trouble dealing with massed attacks.  The Akira is also a cool design, but I've never liked it's nacell design (not the configuration, though, that part's what makes the design) and I've never understood how the weapon pod is manned, since it's so unconnected with the rest of the ship).  The Defiant is a nice little destroyer, though it was made vastly overpowered for its size.  The production run of that class can't have been as unstoppable.  The Nebula suffers from the kitbash syndrome, even if it isn't, but it is also cool.  "Advanced weapons pod" looks exactly like the sensor/weapons pod on every single Nebula I've ever seen though, so no points for that.  And the steamrunner, well, ew :ick:

The Defiant doesn't stand up particularly well against other Starfleet designs; it was matched by the Lakota (an overpowered excelsior, weapons-modernized yes but according to canon still an 80-year-old spaceframe) and would certainly fall to a Galaxy.  It'd do a disproportionate amount of damage before it went though.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Cyker on August 27, 2004, 01:03:44 pm
So... who do you think would win between, say, the Enterprise-D (Or E) and the Colossus? (To be fair, the Colossus doesn't get any fighters or bombers :D)

I liked all of the Star Treks except the early TNGs (They were just TOO cheesy for my liking ;)  I find I can watch them now, but only to laugh at Worf, Riker and Wesley :))
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Tiara on August 27, 2004, 01:12:28 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
And what do you mean not enought firepower? The Galaxy class has phaser banks coming out the ears! You never see most of them fired, but the Defiant's speed wouldn't make a lick of difference because the Galaxy could hit it from literally any angle.
[/b]
For it's size it's relatively underpowered. that's why they refitted it with the War refit during the DomWar. They added a ****load of more powerfull weapons. Replaced the aged lower yield phaser banks etc.

Quote
Practical design? There's no such thing in Star Trek. The entire Starfleet was engineered to be pretty. [/B]

:wtf:

Defiant; Compact, fast, manouevrable. No luxurious quarters, etc etc. A ****load of ablative armor. Heavy forward biased firepower for hit&run tactics and head on engagements. Carries 4 PPCs (2 on each side) and burst fire photon/quantum torpedo launchers. Also has a full arc heavy phaser beam emmiter. Even has a very small shuttlebay. Making it a dedicated warship design.

Nebula; Dual task vessel. Can be fitted with a science pod to act as AWACS or for scientific missions. Can also be fitted with an advanced weapons pod that carries a ****load of torpedoes (Both aft and forward firing).

Akira; Biased towards the combat role. It's fixed weapons pod, not unlike the weapons pod on the nebula, allows it to carry heavy firepower for it's size. Also has hangar bays for shuttles and/or fighters. These hangars are on the front and the rear thus making it capable of launching fighters on both sides if needed making it an all-round design.

Steamrunner; Heavy scout/light cruiser biased towards speed (as seen in the unusually slim design).

I could go on for a while :p I admit that they aren't the best designed ships but if they were the best designed ships they'd be spheres like a Borg Sphere because in space that is the most practical design. People saying that all designs in ST suck just don't grasp the fact that the design philosophy is different from modern day warships.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: aldo_14 on August 27, 2004, 01:14:56 pm
I used to watch Star Trek (all the series on then) when I was wee*.

It makes me cringe.  I think it's the worst piece of **** ever conceived and filmed, and if you disagree with me...you can go **** yerself, cos I'm not changing my mind :p

*I'm deeply embarrassed I even mentioned that..... just showing that my deep irrational hatred of all things Trek is based on actually seeing a lot of the program.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Tiara on August 27, 2004, 01:16:57 pm
Quote
Originally posted by StratComm
The Nebula suffers from the kitbash syndrome, even if it isn't, but it is also cool.  "Advanced weapons pod" looks exactly like the sensor/weapons pod on every single Nebula I've ever seen though, so no points for that.

Weapons pod:
(http://www.ditl.org/gpns/GNebWarp1.jpg)

Sensor pod:
(http://www.ditl.org/gpns/GNebAwacs1.jpg)

Quite different IMO :p
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Knight Templar on August 27, 2004, 01:20:45 pm
wtf? The Colossus moves along at 25 m/s. The Enterprise cruises around at half the speed of light on impulse.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ford Prefect on August 27, 2004, 01:20:47 pm
Bah, I know what ship would rape any other ship in any universe, period: The Glorious Heritage class heavy cruiser of the High Guard Argosy. Long live her majesty the Empress!

(http://www.crescentblues.com/3_5issue/andromeda/androship1.jpg)
http://fantasyscifi.topcities.com/andromeda/pics/ships.html

Combat Systems:
40 ELS missile tubes
12 PDL 50Mw turrets
12 AP cannons
36 RF-42 Centaur tactical fighters
76 RA-26 Shrike strike fighters
12 AF/A-29 Phoenix atmospheric attack craft
16 ES-115 Oracle heavy sensor/attack drones
8 ES-14 Janus light sensor/attack drones
6 Radiating Counter Measure generators
1 AI command and control entity


Standard Armament:
OM-5 standard offensive kinetic kill missiles
DM-5 standard defensive kinetic kill missiles
PM-6 Star Arrow smart anti-ship missiles
PM-6L Strategic Star Arrow smart anti-ship missiles (extended range variant)
PM-6LII Strategic Star Arrow multiple independent kill vehicle (MIKV) variant
SAPM-6III Strike Arrow surface attack variant
Nova Bombs

Bow before the might of the Commonwealth.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: StratComm on August 27, 2004, 01:28:35 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara

Weapons pod:
http://www.ditl.org/gpns/GNebWarp1.jpg

Sensor pod:
http://www.ditl.org/gpns/GNebAwacs1.jpg

Quite different IMO :p


But you can't tell me that the sensor pod is actually part of the nebula design.  How on earth does it connect?  A back-end on that configuration would be interesting to see.  (My comments about the kitbash syndrome).  Most of the time the Nebula is used interchangably for combat and science without changing it's visual appearance at all.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Grey Wolf on August 27, 2004, 01:47:25 pm
You know, if it wasn't for all the physically impossible things (for Star Trek physics) that are included in the futuristic Galaxy-class from All Good Things, it would be pretty cool. That third nacelle though. That's just wrong.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Unknown Target on August 27, 2004, 01:59:23 pm
THE ORIGINAL SERIES R0x0rs j00 B0x0rs!!!!!111oneoneone
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Tiara on August 27, 2004, 02:16:13 pm
Quote
Originally posted by StratComm


But you can't tell me that the sensor pod is actually part of the nebula design.  How on earth does it connect?  A back-end on that configuration would be interesting to see.  (My comments about the kitbash syndrome).  Most of the time the Nebula is used interchangably for combat and science without changing it's visual appearance at all.

I think in the St-verse, it's very possible. Hell, the warp nacelles on most ships are tied in with bent tooth pick to the main hull (like the Galaxy). :p

IMO, the external nacelles are an old fashioned design. In the past they needed to be outside the ship to create a stable warp field. But instead of working it away (what should be done in a military fleet. See Defiant design) they decided on keeping them external because it gives a slight edge in speed (The Defiant is limited to Warp 9.2 IIRC and the Galaxy can go Warp 9.6+).

Also, power conduits seem to be very small in such ships. Like in the Intrepid class, one of the main powerconduits was an about 4 inches thick tube. It had 5,000 Terawatts flowing through it.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ford Prefect on August 27, 2004, 02:31:30 pm
I still think if we pit the Federation against the Commonwealth in a war, Starfleet will get its ass handed to it so fast that it would be as if it never existed.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: StratComm on August 27, 2004, 02:50:16 pm
Tiara, I know it intersects somewhere, but the design looses its flow completely.  The "Weapons Pod" connects to the hull via a tower that comes down around the back of the saucer, and is integrated into the connection there.  The bottom half of that tower is still there, but the top is missing in the sensor pod shot.  Did it just get chopped off?  I would guess that the rest of the tower is part of the weapons pod, but then what does the surface of the tower and the back of the saucer look like?  Plus, where the sensor pod's struts come in to the nacelle struts would have to bisect the impulse engines, which is a bad thing in ST-tech.  It just screams that it doesn't fit.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ghostavo on August 27, 2004, 03:07:41 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Bah, I know what ship would rape any other ship in any universe, period: The Glorious Heritage class heavy cruiser of the High Guard Argosy. Long live her majesty the Empress!

(http://www.crescentblues.com/3_5issue/andromeda/androship1.jpg)
http://fantasyscifi.topcities.com/andromeda/pics/ships.html

Combat Systems:
40 ELS missile tubes
12 PDL 50Mw turrets
12 AP cannons
36 RF-42 Centaur tactical fighters
76 RA-26 Shrike strike fighters
12 AF/A-29 Phoenix atmospheric attack craft
16 ES-115 Oracle heavy sensor/attack drones
8 ES-14 Janus light sensor/attack drones
6 Radiating Counter Measure generators
1 AI command and control entity


Standard Armament:
OM-5 standard offensive kinetic kill missiles
DM-5 standard defensive kinetic kill missiles
PM-6 Star Arrow smart anti-ship missiles
PM-6L Strategic Star Arrow smart anti-ship missiles (extended range variant)
PM-6LII Strategic Star Arrow multiple independent kill vehicle (MIKV) variant
SAPM-6III Strike Arrow surface attack variant
Nova Bombs

Bow before the might of the Commonwealth.


*cough* Wrath of Aquiles *cough*

:nervous:
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ford Prefect on August 27, 2004, 03:14:29 pm
The Wrath of Achilles is a class II deep stand-off attack ship. Deep stand-off attack ships are just the workhorse of the Argosy and their armament, while certainly advanced, is significantly less than that of a heavy cruiser like the Andromeda.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ghostavo on August 27, 2004, 03:16:56 pm
They still manage to beat the crap out of a heavy cruiser

They are the perfect killers :p
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Flipside on August 27, 2004, 03:17:37 pm
I loved the design of the Andromeda to be honest, even if it was 'Hercules in Space', theres something about the design that reminds me of the Liberator in Blakes 7 ;)

And Ghostavo, that's about tactics, same way a Steamrunner will completely mash most things at range in SFA, but will get completely trashed at close range ;)
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ford Prefect on August 27, 2004, 03:19:34 pm
Well we're not pitting High Guard warships against each other, here! We're unleashing all 150,000 of them on the Federation!
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ghostavo on August 27, 2004, 03:21:33 pm
Ok ok... :p

Let loose the Magog Mothership!!! :D

Flipside, in the episode where the Wrath of Achilles (I think it was it) faced the Andromeda, it was completly obliderating it... until a timely intervention of a transport filled with a lot of warheads :p
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Tiara on August 27, 2004, 03:39:48 pm
BAH!

Future Feds own j00!

:D

Seriously, the 31st century Feds pretty much own everything since they basically can control time. :p
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ghostavo on August 27, 2004, 03:43:47 pm
32nd century Feds own 31st century Feds unless the latter commite suicide :p
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Tiara on August 27, 2004, 04:07:45 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ghostavo
32nd century Feds own 31st century Feds unless the latter commite suicide :p

But the 32nd century feds haven't been in the series and the 31st century Feds have! So HA!

:p
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ulala on August 27, 2004, 06:59:43 pm
Back on topic for a moment: The first seasons of every series (well, I never saw TOS's first series, so not sure about that) were a little shakey. DS9 was hard to get into at first, but picked up, Voyager's acting started out tight like TNG did, but those picked up too. I'm sure around season 5ish of Enterprise (if it survives the Friday night axe), we'll look back at the earlier seasons and say "man I can't believe I could stand to watch this crap" but because the later seasons finally got into a nice swing of things, we'll forgive it. In my opinion, Activision needs to support Viacom, not attack them. My $.02 that you guys probably didn't care to hear. :p

The Galaxy is a whacked design, but for nostalgic purpose I still like it. Soverign pwns j00 though. Prometheus was kinda cool too. :nod:
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ford Prefect on August 27, 2004, 07:02:29 pm
I'm thinking we need to arrange a multi-universal coalition war and see who comes out on top. We'll have the Imperial and New Republic fleets, all the major Star Trek forces, (Starfleet, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Borg, and the Dominion), the GTVA and the Shivans, and the Commonwealth High Guard.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Flipside on August 27, 2004, 07:06:53 pm
How about the Asgard and Go'Auld (sp?) to top it off ;)
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ghostavo on August 27, 2004, 07:15:40 pm
Meh... it all is blown away by a coalition of high superior beings...

The ascended Ancients, Q, etc...

Why bother :p
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ford Prefect on August 27, 2004, 07:17:32 pm
The Ancients weren't higher beings, they just had a bigass empire. But I'll bet it still didn't span six galaxies. :D
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ace on August 27, 2004, 07:20:51 pm
In the end it spanded at least several more than six :p Let's see they built gates in the Asgard's galaxy, the one in Atlantis, the Milky Way, all over the place...
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Flipside on August 27, 2004, 07:24:48 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ghostavo
Meh... it all is blown away by a coalition of high superior beings...

The ascended Ancients, Q, etc...

Why bother :p


LOL I suppose we could do a model of John De Lancie with mega beams in his eyes ;)
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ford Prefect on August 27, 2004, 07:34:09 pm
Quote
In the end it spanded at least several more than six  Let's see they built gates in the Asgard's galaxy, the one in Atlantis, the Milky Way, all over the place...

What? Am I missing something? What universe are you talking about?
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ghostavo on August 27, 2004, 07:44:52 pm
The Ancients ascended, therefore = higher being now :D
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: JC Denton on August 27, 2004, 08:12:11 pm
Ford:  he's referring to the SG-1 Ancients, not the FS ancients.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Dough with Fish on August 27, 2004, 08:22:54 pm
****, since we are throwing in species from random Sci-Fi universes, lets see some Shadows and Vorlons go into the frey, oh hell, let's just throw the entire B5 universe in! ****, lets see the Chig in there too, and how about some Peace Keepers?


Seriously, though, Andromeda sucks ass. I tried to like it, I really did, but it just became Hercules in Space. I'll admit it, though, I liked the pilot episode, and thought the seires had a ton of potential, but alas, I was wrong. The less said about Enterprise the better....

P.S. THE PLANET EXPRESS SHIP PWNS EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Flipside on August 27, 2004, 08:27:43 pm
Spaceball 1! We Brake for No-one! :D
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: ZylonBane on August 27, 2004, 10:02:47 pm
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
I used to watch Star Trek (all the series on then) when I was wee*.

It makes me cringe.  I think it's the worst piece of **** ever conceived and filmed
Oh no you don't. You can't just make a statement like that and walk away. You have to say WHY all Trek makes you cringe.

Y'know, so we can more effectively mock you.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ford Prefect on August 27, 2004, 10:09:26 pm
Awwww HELL NO!!! He did NOT say that!
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: HeX on August 28, 2004, 12:26:06 am
Quote
Originally posted by Dough with Fish

 it just became Hercules in Space.


That must be why I can tolerate Andromeda. I never watched much of Kevin in "Hercules". In fact I think I saw like....two episodes. No taint to compare to I suppose. :D

That and I'm easy to please. :D
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Zeronet on August 28, 2004, 11:36:59 am
Urg, this is starting to look like the spacebattles Vs forum. *Weeps*
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Tiara on August 28, 2004, 12:16:32 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
Urg, this is starting to look like the spacebattles Vs forum. *Weeps*

Dun like it? Shaddap! :p

EDIT: (No offense intended)

EDIT2: (Yeah right :p)
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ulala on August 28, 2004, 03:24:40 pm
I tried to re-rail the thread, but failed miserably. Story of my life.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Martinus on August 28, 2004, 03:39:21 pm
[color=66ff00]Gotta learn that you have to go with the flow Ulala.

(unless of course you have the ability to kill the thread. ;) ).
[/color]
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Knight Templar on August 28, 2004, 04:00:20 pm
Voyager is ghey!
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: aldo_14 on August 28, 2004, 05:11:22 pm
Quote
Originally posted by ZylonBane
Oh no you don't. You can't just make a statement like that and walk away. You have to say WHY all Trek makes you cringe.

Y'know, so we can more effectively mock you.


Because it's ****e.  With lycra jumpsuits.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Grey Wolf on August 28, 2004, 07:27:40 pm
The better seasons of the all the series lacked the lycra jumpsuits. As did the good movies.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ford Prefect on August 28, 2004, 08:31:26 pm
Indeed. TNG improved dramatically as soon as they started putting collared jackets on the uniforms.

Once again, though, Andromeda comes out ahead. Their costumes are cool.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Liberator on August 28, 2004, 10:02:09 pm
What costumes?  They all look like they came out of a music video.  Contrary to what we've been lead to believe, the High Guard must be very low key when it comes to proper dress.  I realize it's kind of a naval setting and it's not like I'm asking for full dress every week, but is it too much to ask for the crew to wear standard uniforms?  I mean really, they're the command staff for a crew of 4000, they should set an example.  I understand that non-standard clothing might be required for covert stuff but really, there's not a whole lot of covertness about a Glorius Heritage cruiser.

BTW, kinda OT but does anyone have the dimensions of the Andromeda?  I've seen 9?? x 4?? x 4?? in places but I remember a plot character commenting how she was the size of twelve or her worlds aircraft carriers.  I may not be terribly gifted at the maths, but I know that an aircraft carriers are commonly in the 600 to 800 meter range so how can the Andromeda be the stated size and elicit that kind of comment?
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Knight Templar on August 29, 2004, 01:03:32 am
Quote
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Indeed. TNG improved dramatically as soon as they started putting collared jackets on the uniforms.


Odd, that you have a point. You can automatically tell whether an ep of TNG or DS9 will be good by looking at what uniforms they are wearing...
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: karajorma on August 29, 2004, 02:52:54 am
Quote
Originally posted by Liberator
I may not be terribly gifted at the maths, but I know that an aircraft carriers are commonly in the 600 to 800 meter range so how can the Andromeda be the stated size and elicit that kind of comment?


No they aren't.

USS Nimitz Stats

 Overall length: 1,092 feet
Overall width: 252 feet
Beam at waterline: 134 feet

I was kind of surprised when I found out it was that small.

Besides that worlds carriers may have been on the Ark Royal scale rather than that of the Nimitz

HMS Ark Royal is larger than her 2 sisters, Invincible  and Illustrious, at 210 metres (683 feet) long. She has a maximum beam of 36 metres (117 feet) and a displacement of 20,000 tonnes.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Kosh on August 29, 2004, 03:33:03 am
I personally liked the concept of Andromeda. I also thought the ship designs and special effects were pretty cool (even though they tend to re-use battle sequences WAY, WAY too much and it's totally obvious). I thought the costuming was AWFUL.


But none of that matters, as Babylon 5 rules all
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ford Prefect on August 29, 2004, 08:56:52 am
Quote
Originally posted by Liberator
What costumes?  They all look like they came out of a music video.  Contrary to what we've been lead to believe, the High Guard must be very low key when it comes to proper dress.  I realize it's kind of a naval setting and it's not like I'm asking for full dress every week, but is it too much to ask for the crew to wear standard uniforms?  I mean really, they're the command staff for a crew of 4000, they should set an example.  I understand that non-standard clothing might be required for covert stuff but really, there's not a whole lot of covertness about a Glorius Heritage cruiser.

BTW, kinda OT but does anyone have the dimensions of the Andromeda?  I've seen 9?? x 4?? x 4?? in places but I remember a plot character commenting how she was the size of twelve or her worlds aircraft carriers.  I may not be terribly gifted at the maths, but I know that an aircraft carriers are commonly in the 600 to 800 meter range so how can the Andromeda be the stated size and elicit that kind of comment?

I find the lack of standardized uniforms appealing because I detest the rigid military mentality, and the less that it resembles that, the better.

Dimensions for the Glorious Heritage XMC:
Length: 1301m
Beam: 976m
Height: 325m
Inertial Mass: 96,408,876kg
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ghostavo on August 29, 2004, 09:04:52 am
Er... "rigid military mentality" is necessary in any kind of armed forces :wtf:

Oh and *cough* http://www.allsystems.org/engineering/dsa2.shtml *cough* :nervous:
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ford Prefect on August 29, 2004, 09:11:12 am
Quote
Er... "rigid military mentality" is necessary in any kind of armed forces

Well that's an argument I won't get into.

And yes, I read the little blurb about it; this site is my source. I don't care what the description says, look at its armament and then look at the heavy cruiser's.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ghostavo on August 29, 2004, 09:46:27 am
Example:

Andromeda's:

Combat Systems:
40 ELS missile tubes
12 PDL 50Mw turrets
12 AP cannons
6 Radiating Counter Measure generators

Fighter and drone support:
76 RA-26 Shrike strike fighters
12 AF/A-29 Phoenix atmospheric attack craft
16 ES-115 Oracle heavy sensor/attack drones
8 ES-14 Janus light sensor/attack drones

Wrath of Achilles':

Combat Systems:
180 ELS missile tubes :eek2:
24 PDL 35Mw turrets
4 AP cannons
6 Radiating Counter Measure generators

Fighter and drone support:
32 ES-14 Janus light sensor/attack drones

So you can see in terms of raw firepower, the Wrath of Achilles is much more powerful, as the only advantage the Andromeda has is it's fighter support which it's effectiveness against such a ship is unknown seeing that IIRC it was never used against it.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ford Prefect on August 29, 2004, 11:22:39 am
I'm willing to bet that fighter support makes a huge difference against a ship like the Wrath of Achilles, whose arsenal is configured for engaging large vessels at longer range. (Of course they didn't show that in the show because it would have worked against the desired plot course.) And although its armor, shielding and single entry point may decrease the likelihood of this, heaven help that thing if it ever is boarded, because it has no Lancer compliment.

And if this feeble attempt at an argument fails to convince you, I will say this: The DSA II is funny-looking.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ghostavo on August 29, 2004, 11:27:52 am
It has a Lancer contingent. And the DSA II has double of the turrets of the Andromeda, and given it's lower profile it's probably less vunerable to such threats. But since it was never shown... I guess we'll never know.

And I love the looks of the DSA II :D
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ford Prefect on August 29, 2004, 11:29:35 am
Quote
...the new DSA forgoes such standard shipboard features as small craft, a Lancer contingent, and research capabilities in favor of missiles, missiles, and more missiles.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Ghostavo on August 29, 2004, 11:31:55 am
oh... sorry... misread it :p
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Sandwich on August 29, 2004, 02:00:16 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara

I think in the St-verse, it's very possible. Hell, the warp nacelles on most ships are tied in with bent tooth pick to the main hull (like the Galaxy). :p

IMO, the external nacelles are an old fashioned design. In the past they needed to be outside the ship to create a stable warp field. But instead of working it away (what should be done in a military fleet. See Defiant design) they decided on keeping them external because it gives a slight edge in speed (The Defiant is limited to Warp 9.2 IIRC and the Galaxy can go Warp 9.6+).

Also, power conduits seem to be very small in such ships. Like in the Intrepid class, one of the main powerconduits was an about 4 inches thick tube. It had 5,000 Terawatts flowing through it.


I don't know what's nerdier - you being able to spout off such data, or me for reading this thread.

*glances up at 2 towering bookshelves filled to the brim with 350+ ST books*

:nervous:
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Grey Wolf on August 29, 2004, 07:27:08 pm
That's one thing Trek ships are really lacking in: redundancy. They have all the random things that serve no real purpose (holodecks, for example) but they lack things warships really need. For example, the warp core. Given their notorious habit of breaking, you'd think they'd have a backup core or two built into the design of the ships.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Bri_Dog on August 29, 2004, 07:43:04 pm
I think the Sov has a backup core......I'm probably thinking of something else though.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Tiara on August 29, 2004, 07:48:46 pm
Eh, they were never designed as pure warships. They were build for science and exploration but with big and sharp enough teeth to fend off any potential hostiles. Most of the recreational areas were built in because of the fact that these kind of ships (like the E-D) were designed for long term missions. This is something only a few people seem to understand.

The only dedicated warship in the fleet is the Defiant. It had a more advanced warp core to power it's new advanced array of weaponry, it had heavy ablative armor, didn't have recreational areas, no luxurious quarters but mere bunks, etc etc. A single Defiant is a match for entire squadrons of Jem'Hadar Bug ships or even much larger battleships (like the Negh'Var, the largest Klingon battleship).

It's a fun thing though that even though the Federation fleet is based on exploration ships that they still are powerfull enough to scare off any other major power. It's probably also the reason why the Federation kicked so much Dominion ass in the final stages of the war. They had completed most of the War refits on their ships.

For example; The Galaxy class vessel was a pure exploration ship. But after the War refit, the Galaxy (widely known as the War Galaxy) became notorious for it's power in battle. In DS9: 'Sacrifice of Angels' you see entire Galaxy wings maul entire sections of the Cardassian/Dominion blockade even though they were outnumbered 3:1.
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Kosh on August 29, 2004, 08:45:11 pm
Tiara is appearently quite a Trekkie. :)
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Tiara on August 29, 2004, 08:47:47 pm
Well, duh! Where have you been the last few years? :p
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Zeronet on August 29, 2004, 09:17:08 pm
DS9 had big battles with lots of flashy booms an stuff, wheeee!
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Flipside on August 29, 2004, 09:24:12 pm
:lol:

Well, that's me sold, I'm off to watch some DS9 :D
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Knight Templar on August 31, 2004, 12:16:27 am
Is anything else required really?
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Tiara on August 31, 2004, 05:51:34 am
Re... quired? :wtf:

:p
Title: Activision suing Viacom over Star Trek
Post by: Knight Templar on August 31, 2004, 08:19:44 pm
.................................