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Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => FreeSpace Conversion => Silent Threat: Reborn => Topic started by: Goober5000 on August 29, 2004, 12:23:14 pm

Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Goober5000 on August 29, 2004, 12:23:14 pm
The end is in sight for Silent Threat: Reborn.  We only have to FRED one more mission and tweak a few others, and then we can submit it for voice acting.  Basically what we're working on right now is what happens when the Hades shows up, and why it ends up crashed on the planet in Deneb in the FS2 intro. :D

That's not the point of this thread, though. ;) The reason I'm posting this poll is because Galemp and I were having a heated discussion last night about what kind of beams to put on the Hades.  Here's a summary of the two positions (fyi, there are five beam emplacements on the ship):

Quote
Option 1: Use 5 LuciferBeams
The Hades has Shivan Super Lasers in the original Silent Threat ship table.  Since we replaced the Lucifer's Shivan Super Lasers with LuciferBeams, we should do the same for the Hades.  The original Silent Threat table description says that the Hades is an attempt to recreate the Lucifer, so it stands to reason that they would copy much of the existing Lucifer technology to do it.  There are Shivan Turret Lasers all over the Hades, so why not LuciferBeams also?

The opposing position states that the GTI isn't copying the beams but rather making new ones based on what they know.  To counter that, this position asserts that there wasn't enough time to re-design the beams, since the Great War only occurred over the space of a few months.  Generally, acquiring new technology involves three steps: 1) copying the tech; 2) re-engineering the tech; 3) designing brand new tech.  Certainly, by the time FS2 rolls around, the GTVA would be at stage 3.  But in the FS1-era, when the Shivans had only just arrived, the GTI would only have time to be at stage 1.

Quote
Option 2: Use 2 TerSlashes, 2 LRBGreens, and a BGreen
The beam weapons used on the Hades were entirely Terran, using technology adapted from the Shivans. They are unique weapons and not direct copies of the Lucifer's; once the principle of how they worked was developed the Terrans developed their own beam cannons using the same techniques. It's not as if the beams were salvaged from the Lucifer then built into a new ship.  The Kayser was based on Shivan weaponry, but it wasn't a Shivan weapon.

When the GTA captured the Dragon fighter, they couldn't get the Shivan weaponry to operate, so they had to jury-rig it together.  The beams were developed the same way: observe how the Lucifer's beams work, and try to build your own beam that does the same thing.


We'd like to ask the general HLP populace for their opinion on this.  I can't guarantee that the outcome of the poll will affect our decision, but it always helps to get more information.  And it's extra publicity, too. :D So vote!
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Gloriano on August 29, 2004, 12:43:55 pm
I was thinking why not something beam that fits to Era, power full
but it can't shoot often or Ship reactor collapses as for Color
Gold

but Lucifer beam works too
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Night Hammer on August 29, 2004, 12:58:43 pm
Well since its an attempt to remake the the Lucifer i say go Shivan.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: magatsu1 on August 29, 2004, 02:40:27 pm
it should have unique beams IMO. Not FS2-era beams 'cos they're the military standard at the time, and not Lucifier beams 'cos no way could the GTI replicate Shivan technology to the same standard as the originals.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Antares on August 29, 2004, 02:58:51 pm
The version of the beams used should depend on how you intend the mission to play out.

For example, if you stick to the original ST canon, the only non-GTI battleship present in Secrets Revealed was the GTC Orff.  If this doesn't change in ST:R, you should stick with the LuciferBeams.  The Hades could grease the Orff as a display of its sheer power, leaving the loyal Terran pilots to destroy the warship before it has a chance to escape.

If, however, you intend to create more of a "Battle of Endor" type scenario--I.E., multiple friendly warships Vs. the Hades--it would be a better idea to go the route of Terran weaponry.  This would allow the Hades to fire at multiple targets without immediately destroying them, making for a more prolonged, more enjoyable battle.  This choice also allows for the possibility of AAA turrets for use when all the fighters and bombers are zooming around the Hades, something I'm assuming wouldn't be possible if it used exclusively Shivan weapons.

On a vaguely-related note, how is the Port version of the Ross 128 mission you did going?  I never got it to work with FS, even on my new system, and I really wanna be able to play it. :(
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: redmenace on August 29, 2004, 03:01:45 pm
of course they couldn't replicate the technology. however they had mastered it to some small extent. remember that the hades was based off of shivan tech of course and they were reading shivan signals from it as well.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Goober5000 on August 29, 2004, 03:13:31 pm
Balance is not an issue; the armament is nearly the same in either configuration.  In both cases, just one beam shot will fry a cruiser.

I'm putting the ported version of Ross 128 off until SCP FRED is fixed.  I finally completed the Import FSM Mission menu option, but I can't use it with FRED in its current state. :sigh:
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Lightspeed on August 29, 2004, 03:25:57 pm
Green.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: MatthewPapa on August 29, 2004, 03:28:38 pm
Well, if the anti fighter cannons stay red i say keep the beams red. If not, likwise then.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Hippo on August 29, 2004, 03:32:16 pm
I say the Lucy beams...
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: IceFire on August 29, 2004, 04:17:21 pm
Red Lucifer beams.  If they were able to copy the Shivan pulse weapons technology off the Lucifer than the beams would be the same thing.

I would expect their efficiency to be somewhat degraded.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Kie99 on August 29, 2004, 04:32:39 pm
Maybe the GTI could actually improve the LucyBeams to BFRed standard?
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Flaser on August 29, 2004, 06:35:59 pm
What about yellow/orange beams?



The reason is that its wavelenght is closer to the red used by Shivans, so it will be unique and also implies that it is not yet the not as powerfull but more flexible terran green or an actual replica of the superpowerful red of the Shivans.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Kosh on August 29, 2004, 06:41:28 pm
I vote Lucifer Beams. It has Shivan lasers, so why not beams?

Quote
why it ends up crashed on the planet in Deneb in the FS2 intro


The FS2 intro also shows Ursa bombers in that battle, which should not even exist at that time, so it is no big deal to me if it is a *little* inconsistent.

Personally I think that the Hades just took a wrong turn. :p
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Ransom on August 29, 2004, 07:05:30 pm
Vote 1 Lucifer!
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Striker on August 29, 2004, 07:20:31 pm
It seems like someone who was designing the opening was talking to his buddy:
Guy 1: "Ohh I got it!"
Guy 2:"Got what?"
Guy 1:"Put in the Hades crashed!"
Guy 2:"That wasnt in Deneb though."
Guy 1:"It'd be cool though. They wont notice."
Guy 2:"..."......."Yeah that'd be awesome!!!!11!!1"
Guy 1:"1337!"

...Yeah as for me, I wonder how the hell it got there. I say greens.  Makes more sense to me.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Trivial Psychic on August 29, 2004, 07:42:37 pm
I voted "Other", though if there was no such option, I would have selected the LuciferBeam.  I would submit that GTI managed to capture some examples of the Shivan beam weapons, completely intact, early in the great war, possibly even before the Ross 128 attack.  They had examined the technology in great detail and were already working towards creating their own native beam weapons.  This research would be recovered after the collapse of the GTI, and eventually go towards the development of beam weapons for the GTVA, towards FS2 era.

As non-rogue elements of GTI were beginning to uncover the rogue elements' plans, they decided that they would need the technology sooner rather than later.  While they couldn't create their own beam weapons at this point, they went with an option of arming the Hades (which was basically completed and just awaiting the proper armament) with what Shivan beam weapons they had acquired.  These beams would need Shivan power conduits and reactors (or whatever). in order to function properly.  GTI had acquired some of these when they stole the beam weapons, but had to secure some more, which was part of the reason that they were conducting operations in Ross 128, which was a main Shivan staging area during the height of the great war, and contained alot of Shivan supplies.  With all these systems acquired and grafted into the Hades, it necessitated them to mount all-shivan weapons... no Terran weapons.  For this reason, the electronics signatures of the ship showed up as Shivan.

As for the Hades' beam arragement, I vote that they only captured 3 working examples of the LuciferBeam, but also got some lighter beam weaponry, either AAA weapons or perhaps a slash-variant of the Luciferbeam, with dammage factors akin to the SRed, which occupy the other 2 beam emplacements.

Its a little involved and may conflict with your pre-established plotlines, but that's my take on it.  Maybe I've deciphered YOUR plot. ;7

Later!
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Goober5000 on August 29, 2004, 07:54:13 pm
LuciferBeams are actually somewhat yellow:
(http://www.3dactionplanet.com/hlp/hosted/scroll/misc/lucybeam/lucybeam1.jpg)
Sesquipedalian designed them to mimic the appearance of the Shivan Super Lasers.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Vaelinx on August 29, 2004, 08:26:11 pm
Not having played ST:Reborn, you can feel more than free to take my opinion with a grain of salt (though I am very much looking forward to palying it)...

I'd say go with a weak Lucifer Beam (weak either/or in strength and fire rate)...  As they sound not quite Terran redesigned beam technology, but Terran reverse engineered (as much as could be) copies of Shivan beams...
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: übermetroid on August 29, 2004, 09:12:21 pm
How about look yellow, but not as strong?  Unless the GTI found and captured a Lucy where they stole the beams from.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: InfernoGod on August 29, 2004, 10:01:20 pm
I say go with the Lucifer beams. After all, the GTI was researching Shivan technology and biology. To reinforce my opinion, they had Super lasers on the original Hades. That's my two cents.

EDIT: Sorry, forgot to mention that I've never played Silent Threat, so correct me if I'm wrong about the above info. And btw, can't wait to play ST: Reborn!
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Night Hammer on August 29, 2004, 10:06:45 pm
Whenever I played the port the beams were more of an orangish color, just do that, like kinda red kinda yellow, but like Icefire said reduced efficiency would prolly be a good touch
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: kv1at3485 on August 29, 2004, 10:56:40 pm
I'd go for a somewhat less powerful version of the Lucifer's beams.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Mongoose on August 29, 2004, 11:28:05 pm
Definitely go with the Lucifer beam look, at least.  It would make sense for them to be dumbed down somewhat.  Remember, when the GTA captured the Dragon fighter, they couldn't get a few of its systems to work right.  I'd guess GTI would have the same problems with beam weapons.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Kosh on August 29, 2004, 11:34:33 pm
The GTI had fully functional Shivan weapons operating on the Hades. Maybe they had some help from a captured Shivan or something.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Liberator on August 30, 2004, 12:34:47 am
I vote other.  But I agree with the Luci style beams, but they should behave more like SReds.  5 SReds is sufficient to carve a destroyer into chunks in a couple of volleys not to mention the infinite supply of fighter craft the Hades has. ;)
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Col. Fishguts on August 30, 2004, 02:53:10 am
"Other"

Create some unique beams, if it's not too much trouble.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Raptor on August 30, 2004, 07:38:43 am
I voted 'other', with Lucy beams second.

Personally, I feel that the GTI would never have got full power lucy beams to work, and I'd doubt that they would already have Fs2 Terran grade beams by that point.

I'd suggest that the Hades have normal Shivan beams, with slightly altered colours and other twecks, so they are not as powerful.  To be honest, the Shivans should of had beams (the red ones) right from the outset.

Just my opinon.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Flaser on August 30, 2004, 07:47:56 am
AFAIK beams were only used on the Lucifer during the Great War therefore aquiring them would be extremely bothersome...though not impossible.

Who said the Shivans had a chance to help them - how about incorporating them into the control system so they can fool the Shivan parts they aquired from Ross128 and the rest of the battlefield into believing they're in proper hands. - could be too cliche though.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Setekh on August 30, 2004, 09:10:46 am
LuciferBeams, running at lower power rating (as with the shields we appropriate from the Shivans).
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: aldo_14 on August 30, 2004, 09:20:32 am
Like Luciferbeams, but more transparent around the edges and somewhat duller...i.e. looking less powerful (bright), but more 'ragged' around the edges, as if the powerflow was poorly regulated.

EDIT: i.e. if the Lucifer beams were a lightsaber, these would be a light-chainsaw. :)
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: pyro-manic on August 30, 2004, 02:41:40 pm
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
Like Luciferbeams, but more transparent around the edges and somewhat duller...i.e. looking less powerful (bright), but more 'ragged' around the edges, as if the powerflow was poorly regulated.

EDIT: i.e. if the Lucifer beams were a lightsaber, these would be a light-chainsaw. :)


I like it! :nod::yes:

Lucybeams, but weaker/slower-firing.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: redmenace on August 30, 2004, 04:32:28 pm
maybe flikering a bit, like they were barley able to fire.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: GrandAdmiralAbaht on August 31, 2004, 12:05:46 am
I vote for Lucybeams, but maybe with a reduced rate of fire.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Knight Templar on August 31, 2004, 12:47:14 am
Spoiler'ed for great justice :p (see my post below) // Goober5000
Spoiler:
....

The GTI would have no way of exactly copying LuciferBeam technology. As far as we know in FS1 era, there was only one Lucifer, and it was the only ship with beams. When it was destroyed, it died in the node, and in Sol, and we all know what happened to the node. So really, the only thing the GTI have to go off of when building beam weapons is scans from Alpha One and other attacks by the Lucifer, and a whole lote of theorizing + guess and check. The GTI would use what they know, combine it with what they think works, and create a prototype beam cannon that would be the precursor to what we see now, as it would be the first Terran beam cannon.  Thus, it being Terran, it should be green. It wouldn't be Shivan, because the GTI don't have the magical ability to just duplicate whatever technology they see. If they did, we'd see ships after Capella armed with BFReds....

You guy sforget that the Kayser used Shivan technology and design, but was not a direct shivan weapon in the sense that you wouldn't see it mounted on any shivan ships.  It's reverse-engineered shivan technology, rebuilt and adapted to suit terran needs. Just as Beams are. The GTI took what they knew of the LuciferBeam cannons and made their own prototype. They didn't jack the beams off the Lucifers' broken corpse...

The exception however, are Shivan Turrets mounted on the Hades. However, these are explained through the GTA capturing the Taranis and checking it out, as well as the various cargo depots carptured. It's been theorized that the  Shivans would have kept spare Beam Cannon parts in the cargo depots, but I highly doubt that. Namely because the Lucifer was unique, and invincible, as were the beam cannons.

In summary, it makes perfect sense for the Hades to have Green (if not a little on the weak side) Beam cannons, vs. t3h L\/CiF3R C4n|\|0nZ!!11
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Black Wolf on August 31, 2004, 01:17:13 am
Voted other. They shouldn't be perfect FS2 era military grade beams, but they also shouldn;t be carbon copies of the Lucifers beams, for the reasons KTs explained. A Pale Green would seem appropriate IMO, if you can make it look good.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Goober5000 on August 31, 2004, 01:35:24 am
Hey - staff aren't supposed to post their opinions in the thread, KT. :p

The first post is for laying out the two arguments.  The rest of the thread is for polling the HLP populace.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Blaise Russel on August 31, 2004, 03:19:33 am
The Hades is ugly enough as it is. Don't mix green beams with red turret fire.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Cyker on August 31, 2004, 03:51:57 pm
Green? Runner? Kidney? Butter? How about Chillie?

Oh, you said BEAMS.... ah... um...
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Mad Bomber on August 31, 2004, 04:19:33 pm
Green beams, for the same reasons as KT says.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: jdjtcagle on August 31, 2004, 04:26:24 pm
Green, it always bothered me that the turrets were shivan also :nod:
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: aldo_14 on September 01, 2004, 06:15:22 am
I would like to point out that I think that FS2-colour-style beams just don't look menacing enough for the Hades, IMO.  

Besides which, do we even have a good reason for the blue / yellow / green colour of GTVA beams, beyond battlefield convention?

If the colour is itself the result of GTVA adaptation, then its possible that this is simply due to modifications as the technology was developed... it could be that the Hades had red beams which were more directly based on Shivan tech, but that as a result of  both its destruction alongside the loss(?) of GTI intel, and that an inherent instability (overheating, power drain, requirement of a rare gas or alloy not found in sufficient quantities for fleet wide use) in the Hades beam tech made it unsuitable for widespread adoption.

Say, for example, that the Hades had to use recovered Shivan alloys in its construction to provide sufficiently strong power routing to its beam weapons - whilst you could get away with this for a single ship, its totally unfeasible for outfitting an entire fleet.

EDIT; also, having beams deliberately designed to look like Shivan / Lucifer ones would be a very effective psychological weapon.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: SFN-Darkwarrior on September 01, 2004, 06:22:45 am
I've chosen the option "other".

The Hades is a hybrid ship, and so I think it should have some new, never seen beam weapons.

I'd prefer some dark violett beams like from the shadow ships of B5, would be pretty cool! And I think, violett beams are looking really dangerous, just dunno why, but I have this impression of these beams :)
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Antares on September 01, 2004, 07:31:28 am
The ship is named Hades!  Its beams should be red, red like the fires of HELL! :devil:
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Flaser on September 01, 2004, 11:06:43 am
Actually the violet is a good idea.

It has red in it to show the Shivan heritage, while it also implies the first terran beams to be developed - which are the weak blue AA guns.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: aldo_14 on September 02, 2004, 03:18:29 am
Having seen violet beams first hand... don't work very well IMO.  Too light and it's pink, too dark and it's too muted to look impressive.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Gregster2k on September 03, 2004, 11:13:19 pm
Then how about indigo? You know, a blue with tinges of purple.

No matter what color it is, I say make its trail resemble the LucyBeam rather than FS2 ones...in other words, no standard full-white core...

Or maybe a rapidly-flickering white beam. That makes sense, the Kayser is reverse engineered Shivan tech and its white, so the Hades beams are reverse engineered shivan tech...and should be white too. So how about WHITE LucyBeams? That works. White should work out nicely.

As for purple guns, give the laser turrets purple projectiles, that should compromise it. Yeah...white LucyBeams and purple/indigo or red Laser Turrets. That ought to do it...

To hell with the fact Inferno gives white beams to the EA, who says future beams are always white? ;)
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: StratComm on September 04, 2004, 12:43:24 am
Actually Inferno refers to those as "silver" but that's beside the point.  The turrets need to stay red, as the Hades has obviously shivanesque textures already.  Keep it canon on that regard.  The beams, on the other hand, should look similar to the lucifer beams, but weaker.  So maybe a deep red with an orange core, but without a lot of light intensity.  Basically more like a beamified shivan red blob than a FS2 beam.  Don't make it FS2 Terran, as that doesn't fit.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Pilot Of The US on September 04, 2004, 03:40:19 am
"Other"

i think that the beams should work like FS2 beams, not like that missile type flux cannon. Coz that could kinda explain how beams got into FS2.

Also i remember someone made a lucifer beam that worked just like the normal terran/shivan beams. there was 2 versions and had a range of 30km / 8km. It might be a good idea to use that, or modify it.
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Solatar on September 04, 2004, 01:34:27 pm
They ARE using beams, not fs1 Shivan Super Lasers. That's why they're trying to decide what to do with them.:)
Title: Silent Threat: Reborn update, and a question
Post by: Pilot Of The US on September 04, 2004, 11:16:43 pm
oh, ok.

then just use those beams that i mentioned before