Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gai Daigoji on August 30, 2004, 03:11:34 pm
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Hey all,
I joined HLP a few days back and my first post was about a new FS2 campaign I am working on after creating a very long script for it. (See sig)
But enough of that.
I have only just seen the information on the net about Derek Smart and his company attempting to gain the Freespace rights.
Now you see am almost finished at Uni (Studing games design and programming, only have 3 months left) and a bunch of us (10 people) were going to create our own company after we finish.
We have the money and have already been to four banks with business plans for loans etc for forming the company (if anyone has made there own business before then they know what am talking about)
Interplay has been selling rights to games left and right for very cheap prices (One I believe went for only 8k?)
Can you see were this is leading?
The 10 of us are all very big fans of Freespace (As are all of you) and we've been thinking: "Wouldn't it be good if WE could get the rights for Freespace rather then Derek" Not only would it be good for us, working on a game we love for our first product but we could also get all the insight, story line help from you guys - the community.
Like I said we have the funding and were willing to do it, would that be acceptible to you guys? I mean if you'd rather leave the idea of a retail Freespace game then thats fine by me, we can work on something else but I just thought that it would be good for my team and it would also be good for you guys as you'd get all the input you wanted into its production.
Oh, before I finish up here I can confirm that Derek still does NOT have the rights to Freespace.
Anyways I look forward to what you have to say :)
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I say do it, save freespace from Derek Smart and HLP and the rest of freespace fandom will be in your debt.
may i wish you, your friends and whatever you call your company good luck if you win the rights.
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Good Luck
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*cough*pipe dream*cough*
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Talk to [V] about securing their plotline and most of us will be a lot happier about it :)
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Originally posted by karajorma
Talk to [V] about securing their plotline and most of us will be a lot happier about it :)
I've already e-mailed [V] with a plan and if at all possible they could offer the plotline they had in the works after FS2, should Interplay confirm they are selling the Freespace rights.
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IIRC DaveB put the rights for FS at being worth around $600,000.
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If you can pull it off, you will earn the gratitude of the entire community. But obviously, after paying for a thing like that, you will want to use it, theres no use shelling out for a license just to keep us happy.
No matter what you decide to use it for if you get it, I'm sure you'll get the communities full support, I only ask that you keep us up to date on how development goes, and remain open to suggestions, even if you choose to completely ignore them ;)
Good Luck :D
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THAT MUCH!!!!!! :eek2: :eek2:
Are you sure DaveB wasn't overexaggerating?
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Best of luck to you! :D Please, save Freespace! :p
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Originally posted by chris_2xtreme
THAT MUCH!!!!!! :eek2: :eek2:
Are you sure DaveB wasn't overexaggerating?
Actually, its the best case scenario; might be higher.....
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Originally posted by aldo_14
IIRC DaveB put the rights for FS at being worth around $600,000.
That sounds a little high, but if DaveB is right then it won't be that any longer since Interplay are selling the rights for games left and right at very low prices.
Again it all depends IF Interplay will sell the Freespace rights, they may keep it and not allow anyone to use it just like they did after FS2 with [V]
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To elaborate on whats been said, the reason why we dislike the idea of Derek getting it is because he has blalant disreguard for the community and our ideas and dreams of FS3. He came in telling us that, like it or not, hes getting the liscence and doing as he pleases. The fact that you came to us first and asked us for our permission proves you are a real fan. You have my full support. I just hope you can get that kinda money. If at all possible, I think all of us would appreciate to see any work you've done in the past. Just so we know what we're dealing with. I'm confident it surpasses a certain hated game designer's games by lightyears. Thanks, and good luck.
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Originally posted by karajorma
Talk to [V] about securing their plotline and most of us will be a lot happier about it :)
Karajorma speaks the truth...
I think it would be cool if it were to happen, but if it's not the original :V: plot it's nothing more than a Fan-Made game :)
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Derek should just fess up.
FS3 will not be a first person sim.
it'll be a first person go-cart racing game.
Freespace 3: Vasuda-Kart X-Treme
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What will your comapany's name be? Maybe HLP can help you guys select one. ;)
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Originally posted by ionia23
Derek should just fess up.
Freespace 3: Vasuda-Kart X-Treme
:lol:
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Originally posted by chris_2xtreme
THAT MUCH!!!!!! :eek2: :eek2:
Are you sure DaveB wasn't overexaggerating?
Nope. This is the business world, after all. FS2 may have flopped somewhat, but it's still a brand name with a very good reputation (classic status). Also, as soon as someone expresses an interest, the price goes up - it's only cheap if there's no demand.
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Two thumbs up here. :)
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Look Gai,
I'm in the same boat as you - me and some mates are starting a business and let me tell you, this kind of sentimentalism is lethal.
Freespace 2 would not be a big hitter for you, and you'd have a nightmare trying to market it esp. from the UK.
I say go with something new, something unique to you guys and then maybe come back and think about fs3. :)
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Originally posted by Falcon
What will your comapany's name be? Maybe HLP can help you guys select one. ;)
We have a few that we might use, but the one everyone seems to like is: "Vindication" :)
aldo_14 - Your right, the moment Interplay gets wind that companies want to purchase "X" license then they will raise the price.
vyper - Its good to see someone else has some plans like me
:) Thanks for your advice, but we're still going to try and am sure it will hit off.
Good luck with your company.
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To be honest, Vyper does speak truth here, as much as I hate to admit it, you might do better allowing you own imagination to run wild with a game first, you may find you own ideas go beyond Freespace even ;)
The money would obviously be yours to do with as you wish, if all of your friends are avid Freespace fans and are dedicated to doing it, I say go for it, but it is worth considering working without 'other peoples rules' containing you at first ;)
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Originally posted by Flipside
To be honest, Vyper does speak truth here, as much as I hate to admit it, you might do better allowing you own imagination to run wild with a game first, you may find you own ideas go beyond Freespace even ;)
The money would obviously be yours to do with as you wish, if all of your friends are avid Freespace fans and are dedicated to doing it, I say go for it, but it is worth considering working without 'other peoples rules' containing you at first ;)
Eight of us have played both FS1 and FS2, the other two have only played FS2 but we are dedicated to working on FS3 should the rights come into our hands.
We've talked about it and should we manage to get a hold of the rights then great! Full speed ahead with production and we'll work with the HLP community and the SCP people since you all have worked and dreamed of this game. And if [V] accepts our offer then even better as it will be an offical story-line. But if we don't then we'll work on something else and try and create something just as good as Freespace, using insight from this community still :)
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A Win-Win situation :D
Well, I wish you all the best of luck, no matter how things go, let us know your companies name when you decide on one, and I'm sure we will watch how things go for you. :)
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This sounds very intresting. I'll make sure other staff sees this thread.
I really like the part of your post about working close with the community.
SCP has some talented coders. Talk to them about this and get thier point of view too.
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Guys! Where are your manners??!?!
:welcome:
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LOL Sorry, got so swept away about the whole FS3 thing we forgot! :D
Welcome aboard Gai :)
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Well, sorry in advance for this post.
I, for one, hope you miserably fail at getting the rights to Freespace. I do NOT hope Derek gets them either.
What I'm trying to say is, as soon as someone has the means to do FS3 and does so - the SCP is dead. Because whoever is paying that much for the rights, will seek to make profit out of it as well. However, this includes two things:
There's no way the source code will be available.
There's no way something like this could ever be again.
If it were for me, the ideal situation would be that there's never something like FS3, and we have the SCP, which is, open-source.
We have one of the few open source projects that does NOT suck, and I don't want to lose it.
Sorry, being an egoistic bastard, but I cannot wish you luck, when your endeavour means our doom.
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It wouldn't mean our doom any more than Derek Smart getting the rights would have meant our doom Lightspeed, at least as far as I understand thngs. True, the creation of a Freespace 3 is going to detract from the SCP a little, but this guy has been generous enough to offer to take our opinions into consideration with this game, I am certain we would be in the links list on any kind of Freespace 3 website, so the overall effect may actually be to enhance HLP and it's work, not destroy it :)
It's not even been decided whether he'll be able to buy it yet, but if he wants to, we cannot stop him, and I for one would rather have an ambivalent dictatorship than a non-ambivalent one.
That said, I do understand the concerns, but if this guy had any intention on clamping down on the SCP, I don't think he would be posting here asking our opinions. :)
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Is it even legally possible to close an open-sourced code base project just because the liscence to the original game data files (story/universe, not the engine) changes hands?? :doubt:
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He could, if he so chose, clamp down on the use of 'Vasudan' 'GTVA' 'Shivan' etc, we are free to use only the code as far as my understanding goes.
That said, any company would realise that clamping down on it's own brand names being spread around would be an anti-profit activity. More mods means more attention, SCP appearing in the Gamespy News means more attention, and more attention means sales.
A games root fanbase can, if so motivated, advertise that game with far more energy on the Internet community than a company can, where the game is relegated to another pop-up or side-ad.
So, yes it is possible, it is also unlikely in the extreme, in my opinion.
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I think it's possible in this particular case, since it wasn't truly open-source to begin with.
But there's a big difference between the engine and the story. They could make a FS3 campaign and continue to let the SCP add improvements to the engine. :)
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Let's be realistic. WHO would go for the SCP when Freespace 3 is out?
Even if we had thousands of times better stuff, I doubt we would have any amount of people left worth mentioning.
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Oh, I don't know, after all the rights will belong to these guys, not us, it might mean adding a FS3 specific forum to HLP, which would probably get a lot more visitors than the rest of it, but I'm sure most of the the older community would still be here, and no doubt some new members will drift over from time to time.
Besides if these guys get the rights, we could possibly come to some sort of 'gentlemens agreement' regarding how far in the future it takes place, so that we are not treading on their toes, and our Mods can remain more or less 'valid', and also regarding the .vp's themselves deom Freespace 2, possibly making each Mod a fully downloadable game.
The fact remains that, for now, the rights remain a fish in open water, I'd personally rather that, should it be developed, it were developed by someone who is polite enough to ask for our comments, even though they by no means have to.
SCP 'May' suffer because of the development, I'm sure it would take quite a while to write something on the scope of FS3, but I don't see the SCP dissapearing, with the right kind of relations between the developer and the fans, you could have a situation where everyone wins, at least, that's my opinion ;)
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
Let's be realistic. WHO would go for the SCP when Freespace 3 is out?
Even if we had thousands of times better stuff, I doubt we would have any amount of people left worth mentioning.
Yeah I get what your saying but even though some may go play Freespace 3 doesn't mean they would abandone the SCP I know I wouldn't.
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Originally posted by Flipside
The fact remains that, for now, the rights remain a fish in open water, I'd personally rather that, should it be developed, it were developed by someone who is polite enough to ask for our comments, even though they by no means have to.
While I agree 100% with that, it is one of my big hopes that nobody will ever get the chance to make a FS3.
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no matter what happens, nothing can threten the SCP, other than our own lack of enthusiasm.
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I do understand where you're coming from, as a modder and musician, I've seen more creativity in this forum than can ever be contained in a single game. :) But that's how the SCP will survive ;)
However, I can't outblow the wind and I cannot wish these guys anything but good luck with their company, however they start it. Posting here was a good start, from a purely 'selfish' point of view, but if they pick up the rights, if it 'is' going to happen, I'll support them :)
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There were plenty of people still MODding FS1 after FS2 came out, at least for a while and that was without the SCP.
Im all for it man best of luck to you and your friends :nod:
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Well good luck getting FS licence :)
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Originally posted by Holy Imperial Gloriano
Well good luck getting FS licence :)
:nod: You'll need it.
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I say go for it, but make sure that everything is at least as good as FS2.
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Even if I compeletely agree with Lightspeed, and I want to be supportive of the new guys, I only see pitfalls and manholes in the road ahead.
1. Our genre is financially wise - dead. We might as well admit it. Fan driven expansion is and can be achieved as SCP has shown. New market games much like Starshatter are much less limited in appeal than a moderate PC shooter game. UNLESS YOU GO FOR XBOX. And that means coughing up big dough to Microsoft.
2. I suspect that you all saw the spaghetti code and the work done by Kazan, Taylor, Bobbau in implementing all that wonderful stuff, and think you can do better. You just may. But, think. Only now do I really think that SCP is getting to the point where it should be. It will take you guys a lot of time, more than you suspect.
3. Eventually some good friend, business acquaintance and all will suggest the "smart" move of doing away with freeloaders and stuff (HLP and SCP), thus destroying the beautiful Academia of free thinkers and coders we have right now.
4. Talented people will NO DOUBT say, "why the frigging hell should I work on something for free, when a company *$$ will rip off whatever he wants and claim he has the rights". Because no doubt, a lot of your people will benefit from the enhanced Fenris, the retextured Sathanas, and what have you.
5. You will make a tech demo and dissappear into the night, (a friend will find a better offer somewhere, another will doubt the validity of it all, etc), leaving us high and dry.
6. It may just be that you are the knights in shining armor, have all the money in the world and rescue us all from "certain death". Just that in real life it doesn't work that way, and we have been hearing too many excuses, seen too many things go awry.
7. Think and think again. You (whatever you do) must let this community find its own way. Don't jeopardize it, and some of the community will help you. Try to limit it, and find legal ways to go at it, and inevitably we will go after you (like fallout fans), and possibly die out in the process.
8. There has been a major paradigm shift. Gamers of my generation ( I am older and none the wiser), didn't think you could be one without a Joystick. Nowadays all there is is keyboard/mouse. To try to accomodate the genre like Freelancer did, is to fail much like Freelancer did. You must stick to the basics (FS2 wise) give more control options, DON'T DUMB IT UP, and you might have a chance, like Il2 did. However that is doubtful because Il2 had this MASS of people who wanted to play WW2.
What have you guys got?
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Besides, some of Fs2's worth was its excellent production...
Lines like...
" I can live with being a pawn if the game makes sense" are still haunting me.
It was the MAJOR release from a major company like INTERPLAY once was. Thus a lot of money were spent designing it. You really must top that to be able to go further. And no offense. It will take money and time, and I REALLY HOPE you do have what it takes.
Because in the words of the Oracle...
" You are a good man, Neo, and I hate telling good people bad news"
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You all raise some very good points, I'll try and answer some of the questions now for you.
Lightspeed - We understand about the importance of the SCP and the project, I for one love the work the SCP crew have done. You've done a great job updating every aspect of the FS2 game and am looking forward to furture updates. Also we would never ask you or demand of you to stop work on the SCP project if we got the rights. You have some very good coders and have some great ideas - if anything we might ask some of you to work on parts of the coding or put forward your ideas if you wanted to.
We're not going to be a Derek guy and say: "We have the rights, the community can go to hell I'll make the game the way I want"
The fact is without you guys I wouldn't even be attempting to get the rights. All the posts I've read, all the campaign ideas, all the story-lines, all the models and the SCP show us that you people are what matters in a project of this undertaking.
Without you guys/gals then whats the point in wasting money in trying to get the rights? I for one believe that if we can get it then we can create FS3 with your insights and ideas, it would then be a game you would all enjoy and what other people would also enjoy since it would contain the ideas and thoughts of many gamers alike.
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besides ... you COULD make it 100% moddable .... (look at nexus) and if the engine gets wasted or soemthing release the source :p
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Originally posted by Sandwich
Guys! Where are your manners??!?!
We already welcomed him on the other thread since he posted there first :D
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
While I agree 100% with that, it is one of my big hopes that nobody will ever get the chance to make a FS3.
Look, they may or may not make FS3 - but they can still re-sell FS2 along with the SCP and inferno and the other ub3rness that is associated with this game before they do!
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I'd suggest going for something original rather than FS3, myself.
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As much as I want to see an FS3, I agree that as a flagship product you should do something original. You could even make a space sim, just not Freespace. I'm going to remain skeptical of any potential FS3 until it's been proven the makers are capable of making it better, or at least equal, to the original games and the SCP's improvements.
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i suppose if i were you i'de work on some stunning original work to make your company or business which ever you want to call it noticed and liked. then once the general population knows about you then work on buying already exisiting licences and what not.
I suppose though if you are really concerned about the FS licences that much you could buy it and hold on to it till plan A(above) has been completed
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You know what would be in a way easier as well as more likely to succeed? A FreeSpace-universe based thinking-man's FPS. Heck, the community has tried to start such a project (as a TC to other game engines) a couple of times (myself included), but it's died from lack of talent in MODding FPS games.
Think about it. You could come out of the blue, like FarCry did, but with a game that already has a captivating backstory. After all, what's the ONE cutscene that everyone (who has seen it) ranks as the best? ;)
Hallfight!!
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Originally posted by Sandwich
a thinking-man's FPS
Isn't that an oxymoron?
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If Volition doesn't get it, then by all means go for it. If Derek Smart gets the license then it will be time to mass suicide.:lol:
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I say friggin do it. It would be much safer in your hands. However, if it aint [V], it aint Freespace. They gotta be part of the plotline. I just hope you can come up with something that has a whole bunch of eye-candy for us that we wouldnt even be able to dream of making with improvements. Whoopie! :D
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Originally posted by Sandwich
You know what would be in a way easier as well as more likely to succeed? A FreeSpace-universe based thinking-man's FPS. Heck, the community has tried to start such a project (as a TC to other game engines) a couple of times (myself included), but it's died from lack of talent in MODding FPS games.
Think about it. You could come out of the blue, like FarCry did, but with a game that already has a captivating backstory. After all, what's the ONE cutscene that everyone (who has seen it) ranks as the best? ;)
Hallfight!!
Tough, oversaturated market though.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Tough, oversaturated market though.
Oversaturated yes, but not, I would suspect, particularly tough to break into. The modern FPS gamer is, and I realize this is something of a generalization, attracted by two things - good graphics and good multiplayer. If you can pull these two off, and make the rest at least decent, you might not have the next Half Life, but in all likelyhood you'll have a reasonably successful game under your companies belt. Insert a slightly unique element in there (Stealth, GeoMod, or, in the case of a FS game, perhaps strong vehicular integration), make sure it's not too hard to mod (or at least provide good tools/documentation) and you're prety much home.
I'm not saying you want to strive for a mediocre game, but I don't think it's particularly difficult to create a commercially viable game if you don't deviate too much from what is a working formula. Attatch this sort of game to a recognizable franchise (As the Derek Smart thing showed us that Freespace apparently still is) and you're probably in the clear.
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Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.
I say friggin do it. It would be much safer in your hands. However, if it aint [V], it aint Freespace. They gotta be part of the plotline. I just hope you can come up with something that has a whole bunch of eye-candy for us that we wouldnt even be able to dream of making with improvements. Whoopie! :D
I agree 100% with what you said, thats why I've already contact [V] about, if we gain the rights to Freespace, producing a joint project :)
Also I like everyones input about this topic, its the whole reasn why I asked here so I could get thoughts on the matter. Keep them comming and if you have questions let me know and I'll reply. Also I'll inform you about updates as I get them.
Also I said, if we didn't gain the license to Freespace, we'd work on a project using the HLP members input as to what they would like in a game. Either way this community would be a part of production. :)
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Have you tried securing funding yet, perchance?
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and by funding we're talking the $100,000+ it'll take to acquire the license, if it's even possible :-/
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Gai Daigoji: can you, while talking to interplay inquire as to the fate of theire remaning copies of the 20th anniversary edition of the fs2?
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Have you tried securing funding yet, perchance?
Funding has already been taken care of, we've had funds since the end of last year when we planned the start of the company out :)
Plus we've already secured a loan for office space etc so everything in that department is taken care of.
redmenace - It can't hurt to try, so I'll ask for you.
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Originally posted by Gai Daigoji
Funding has already been taken care of, we've had funds since the end of last year when we planned the start of the company out :)
Plus we've already secured a loan for office space etc so everything in that department is taken care of.
Good man :)
To be honest, this is the sort of thing I wish I'd done when I graduated... but the people I know, and would have asked, have families or houses to look after, and it wasn't a risk I could ask them to take.
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@aldo14,
You could always join the team or volunteer your models, should they start. They would love to have you , at least I would if I were them.
You deserve/earned it 1000fold.
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I'm invisioning a huge game made by the best in the community, and you get money :D
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He's just registered and he's being accepted.
Oooh, I feel all faint.
*staggers around*
ARGH! My powers! I'm melting! Meeeeltiiiiiinnnnnggg............
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Anon, you want those last ~175 posts so bad you can taste it, don't you.
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Oh, is that what that is?
I thought it was just c'z I'd brushed my teeth for a change.
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If you guys get the liscense, I can tell you right now that I will buy the game regaurdless. You coming here to ask us is proof enough that you are a (soon-to-be) company worthy of my 50 bucks. Now there's the matter of "If it ain't [V], it aint FS3" I agree. Which is what brings up the point: does it have to be called FreeSpace 3? I mean if you get the story of FS3 from [V], why not make a smaller story that doesnt fully finish off the story. I say you make an FS2 spinoffy game, true to V's universe. Sell the game, make enough money to support yourselves and repay the rights, then sell the rights to [V] for a fraction of the cost. It is a large risk financially, depending on the sales of the game, but if you can pull it off, it will work.
If only you could use the SCP. Unfortunately, I doubt that the creators, as generous as they have been to the community, would gladly give up their work without a share of the cut. You'll have to do it all over yourself. There have been too many people that contributed to the SCP to give each a share of the cut. Unless you guys that made it are willing to just hand over your work. But oh well. Good luck to all.
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I disagree, if we do get the story from :V: I say CLOSURE!!! :nod:
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I agree too, theres no point shelling out that kind of money to write just another chapter, you want to go for maximum impact, and that means answers ;)
As for the whole [V] thing, well, as much as I'd like to see them write FS3, if these guys get the licence, it basically means that [V] weren't going to, they still have first grab iirc. So, if it's good, which this guys dedication to gaming already suggests, I'll cough up ;)
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I think the community would be more than willing to fork out a reasonable amount of money if asked in order to save the rights to Freespace, seeing as how they devote so much time to making it look at feel new and fresh.:D
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Originally posted by GT-Keravnos
@aldo14,
You could always join the team or volunteer your models, should they start. They would love to have you , at least I would if I were them.
You deserve/earned it 1000fold.
I'm neither a professional modeller nor a professional games programmer(alas, wring skillset), for one thing.
Secondly I'm under contract till the end of October.
Thirdly it would be grossly unfair to even expect to be considered for employment in that way - if they wanted people, they'd be asking and they'd be going through a proper recruitment process.
Finally, location, location, location.
Otherwise, I'd have asked :)
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Hey, Gai Daigoji. Welcome to HLP. :)
:welcome:
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Originally posted by Setekh
Hey, Gai Daigoji. Welcome to HLP. :)
:welcome:
Yes, welcome. I wish you the best of luck.
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And pardon my curiosity, but where did you come up with that username from??
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Regarding the idea of a Freespace fps, might I suggest adding zero-g? Zero-g maps would add a new element to multiplayer, so it would stand out. And we already know (from Hall Fight) that FS marines are trained for low-gravity situations.
I know plenty of people who play multiplayer extensively, but know nothing about the single-player campaign. Having some kind of special feature will draw in the MP fanbase.
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Wow...this sounds great. If you can pull this off the whole community will be behind you.
And the community has many talented programmers and modelers, so if any help is needed in that department, I'm sure everyone would be willing to help anyway they can, to see the "as real as it can be" FS3 out..
And I'm sure all they would ask for would be a slight mention in the credits...LOL
Best of Luck!