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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bobboau on August 31, 2004, 12:50:50 pm

Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Bobboau on August 31, 2004, 12:50:50 pm
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6115935

there was alos an atack in Isreal
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Gloriano on August 31, 2004, 01:06:21 pm
Russian goverment gonna blame Chechen's of course Attackers could be someone else or even al qaida sided with Chechen's

but there is change that organized crime did that
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: TopAce on August 31, 2004, 01:06:54 pm
Terrorist attack, right?
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: ionia23 on August 31, 2004, 01:08:25 pm
Looks that way.  The Moscow subway bombing hasn't been conclusively stated, but the plane crashes are looking strong.  

sucks.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Bobboau on August 31, 2004, 01:33:39 pm
you know it just occured to me, France has hostages in Iraq, Nepal just had a dozen people killed, and russia has been hit hard the last few day, gee it sure is to bad they all suported the evil American agression agains Islam... oh, wait a sec, Nepal declined to help us, Russia sold nightvision goggles and all sorts of crap to Sadam and don't even get me started about France, has anyone started to think that _maybe_ the USA isn't the thing they hate?
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 31, 2004, 01:56:17 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
you know it just occured to me, France has hostages in Iraq, Nepal just had a dozen people killed, and russia has been hit hard the last few day, gee it sure is to bad they all suported the evil American agression agains Islam... oh, wait a sec, Nepal declined to help us, Russia sold nightvision goggles and all sorts of crap to Sadam and don't even get me started about France, has anyone started to think that _maybe_ the USA isn't the thing they hate?


and of course this gratuitous bashing has nothing to do with anything. But thanks for your viewpoint anyway. :rolleyes:
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: ionia23 on August 31, 2004, 02:19:33 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
you know it just occured to me, France has hostages in Iraq, Nepal just had a dozen people killed, and russia has been hit hard the last few day, gee it sure is to bad they all suported the evil American agression agains Islam... oh, wait a sec, Nepal declined to help us, Russia sold nightvision goggles and all sorts of crap to Sadam and don't even get me started about France, has anyone started to think that _maybe_ the USA isn't the thing they hate?
:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: redmenace on August 31, 2004, 02:34:17 pm
bob is only pointing out the general feeling of alot of people, that is that they are tired of having "anti-Islamic" foreign policy being blamed for "Al Qeada" existance. The truth is they hate anyone who disagrees with them. Which would be the entire western society.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Martinus on August 31, 2004, 02:34:52 pm
[color=66ff00]I'm just wondering why France is so hated by some americans, France did exactly what america did; looked after it's own interests.

The more I read the more I see some stupid conspiracy forming, keep america in what is effectively wartime to make money and increase your control over the population all while making them think it is a worthwhile cause.

I don't even like talking about this. :sigh:
[/color]
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: ionia23 on August 31, 2004, 02:39:48 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Maeglamor
[color=66ff00]I'm just wondering why France is so hated by some americans, France did exactly what america did; looked after it's own interests.

The more I read the more I see some stupid conspiracy forming, keep america in what is effectively wartime to make money and increase your control over the population all while making them think it is a worthwhile cause.

I don't even like talking about this. :sigh:
[/color]



When the whole "Freedom Fries" thing started here I took a position of "Here's a thought: If you've got such an issue with France, how about shipping back the Statue Of Liberty?"

Shuts 'em up quick.  People forget who helped out in the Revolutionary War here.  France and Spain.  A little gratitude wouldn't kill us.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: TopAce on August 31, 2004, 02:42:13 pm
Americans are in some Point of views, English and English people do not like the French. Americans have the British 'I do not like France' blood flooding in their bodies.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: kode on August 31, 2004, 02:47:38 pm
very much like we swedes dislike the inferior norwegian people. and also, that king guy that thought it'd be a good idea to vote on whether they wanted their own country or not.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Petrarch of the VBB on August 31, 2004, 02:50:36 pm
I thought you Swedes despised the Finns?
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: kode on August 31, 2004, 02:57:50 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB
I thought you Swedes despised the Finns?


no. we are somewhat dismayed by their declaration of independence too, of course, but we do not despise the heathens.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Petrarch of the VBB on August 31, 2004, 03:03:28 pm
Ahh. Must be just the other way round then.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: kode on August 31, 2004, 03:17:53 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB
Ahh. Must be just the other way round then.


ahh, that's just cause they're forced to learn swedish in school. the only things they're good at are sauna, getting drunk and fighting with knives.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Rictor on August 31, 2004, 03:22:07 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
you know it just occured to me, France has hostages in Iraq, Nepal just had a dozen people killed, and russia has been hit hard the last few day, gee it sure is to bad they all suported the evil American agression agains Islam... oh, wait a sec, Nepal declined to help us, Russia sold nightvision goggles and all sorts of crap to Sadam and don't even get me started about France, has anyone started to think that _maybe_ the USA isn't the thing they hate?


I have no idea about Nepal, but French hostages are being held because of the head-scarf ban in French schools, which was very, very unpopular with the Muslim population in France (and abroad as well it seem).

Russia is under attack by Chechens, which is quite obviously becasuse of the occupation - same reason Palestinians attack Israelis. As well, Chechen rebels are not at all from the same mold as al Queda & Co. Its more of a nationalist thing, instead of an ideaological one, more akin to the traditional liberation movements.

This may sound cold, but is 5 dead and 5 wounded really news? Its just a sensational event, a car bomb. Does anyone really notice when 5 Iraqi, or 5 Afghanis, or 5 Chechens drop dead? Do you want me to post every time an IDF or US attack kill 5 civies? Or how about diesese, or hunger, or road accidents?
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: ionia23 on August 31, 2004, 03:27:46 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor

I have no idea about Nepal, but French hostages are being held because of the head-scarf ban in French schools, which was very, very unpopular with the Muslim population in France (and abroad as well it seem).

Russia is under attack by Chechens, which is quite obviously becasuse of the occupation - same reason Palestinians attack Israelis. As well, Chechen rebels are not at all from the same mold as al Queda & Co. Its more of a nationalist thing, instead of an ideaological one, more akin to the traditional liberation movements.

This may sound cold, but is 5 dead and 5 wounded really news? Its just a sensational event, a car bomb. Does anyone really notice when 5 Iraqi, or 5 Afghanis, or 5 Chechens drop dead? Do you want me to post every time an IDF or US attack kill 5 civies? Or how about diesese, or hunger, or road accidents?


You really need to go and watch the beheading clips.  Seriously.

And yes, I do think you should start posting every time someone from Iraq, Afghanistan, or Chechnya dies for any reason (that makes it to print).
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Bobboau on August 31, 2004, 03:45:45 pm
my point was that despite opposeing us, all these nations are still finding themselves under atack, that it isn't us(USA) that there ultimately shooting at but rather us(not them).

france was the lead in opposition.

Rictor if you want to post everytime someone dies go ahead

"I have no idea about Nepal" (http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/5922_981425,0015002000000000.htm)
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Stunaep on August 31, 2004, 03:50:58 pm
You know that the explosives used to blow up the two airplanes, were the same that the FSB used to blow up a couple of buildings a few years back. They blamed that on the Chechens as well.

My bet is that the russians themselves blew up the planes.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Zuljin on August 31, 2004, 03:55:22 pm
Quote
Originally posted by kode
very much like we swedes dislike the inferior norwegian people. and also, that king guy that thought it'd be a good idea to vote on whether they wanted their own country or not.


Well....that feeling is mostly mutual. Norwegians usually tend to look down on swedes the same way :p
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Martinus on August 31, 2004, 03:57:55 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
my point was that despite opposeing us, all these nations are still finding themselves under atack, that it isn't us(USA) that there ultimately shooting at but rather us(not them).

france was the lead in opposition.

Rictor if you want to post everytime someone dies go ahead

"I have no idea about Nepal" (http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/5922_981425,0015002000000000.htm)

[color=66ff00]I know that Bob, I was just commenting on the France thing, it's always bugged me.

I think it reinforces that these guys are on a so called mission from God and anyone and everyone that isn't them is a target.
[/color]
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Flipside on August 31, 2004, 04:03:22 pm
Personally I think the Terrorists didn't know what their demands would be until they knew the nationality of the people they had just kidnapped. When they grabbed a couple of journalists and found out they were French, the only thing they could make into an excuse for a 'holy killing' was the headscarf. Same with the Nepalise :)

Some silly bastard, naming no names, gave the terrorists a soapbox, and they are happily soaking it in blood.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Rictor on August 31, 2004, 04:29:44 pm
Quote
Originally posted by ionia23


You really need to go and watch the beheading clips.  Seriously.

And yes, I do think you should start posting every time someone from Iraq, Afghanistan, or Chechnya dies for any reason (that makes it to print).


awww, you know how at the end of the Green Mile, the big guy dies. Yeah, I was totally crying, I just couldn't help myself. Why, why did he have to die!

Please. I've seen the beheading clips. So what, they chop off the guy's head. Could just as well have shot him, or starved him or threw him in a pool of piranahas. You think that because the death is grizzly, that someone makes it a greater crime? How many untold thousands died because a cruise missle hit their house, but the TeeVee never saw it fit to broadcast. Because you don't see them, they don't exist, right? Its just like General Whathisface said, when you see something uncomfortable, like dead Iraqi civilians, just change the channel. Problem solved.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Flipside on August 31, 2004, 04:45:33 pm
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040831/ap_on_re_eu/france_iraq_hostages_040831103859

I'm not certain about some of the wording in here, it seems to imply without implying if that makes any sense, but here you go :)
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: ionia23 on August 31, 2004, 04:48:17 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor


awww, you know how at the end of the Green Mile, the big guy dies. Yeah, I was totally crying, I just couldn't help myself. Why, why did he have to die!

Please. I've seen the beheading clips. So what, they chop off the guy's head. Could just as well have shot him, or starved him or threw him in a pool of piranahas. You think that because the death is grizzly, that someone makes it a greater crime? How many untold thousands died because a cruise missle hit their house, but the TeeVee never saw it fit to broadcast. Because you don't see them, they don't exist, right? Its just like General Whathisface said, when you see something uncomfortable, like dead Iraqi civilians, just change the channel. Problem solved.


What any of this has to do with the Green Mile, I have no idea.  But as for the other half....

Man, if you can be so nonchalant after watching those videos....christ, I hope I never get that jaded.

The fundamental difference here is intent.  Interesting to note that those folks from Nepal being gutted doesn't mean a damn to you, but a US Marine defending the righteous butts of the Iraqi opulation misses it's target, and you're out holding protest marches.

(thinks)

I get it.  Either this is a devil's advocate argument or as long as the people killed aren't Muslim (preferably culturally and spiritually), then it's perfectly okay.  Tell me it isn't a race thing, please.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: aldo_14 on August 31, 2004, 04:50:57 pm
Quote
Originally posted by TopAce
Americans are in some Point of views, English and English people do not like the French. Americans have the British 'I do not like France' blood flooding in their bodies.


Scots like the French, BTW.  Auld Alliance and all that.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Flipside on August 31, 2004, 04:52:49 pm
It's so nice to hear who I do and don't like, saves me having to form my own opinions :p hehehehehe
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Gank on August 31, 2004, 05:10:23 pm
Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
I get it.  Either this is a devil's advocate argument or as long as the people killed aren't Muslim (preferably culturally and spiritually), then it's perfectly okay.  Tell me it isn't a race thing, please.


This from a guy who wanted to nerve gas a town of 500,000 because 4 US mercenaries were killed. :rolleyes:
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: ionia23 on August 31, 2004, 05:22:52 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Gank
This from a guy who wanted to nerve gas a town of 500,000 because 4 US mercenaries were killed. :rolleyes:


Ahh, I remember that colorful debate.  Wanted?  No.  Sure sounded that way at the time I'm sure.  Nerve gassing the very people you're supposed to be protecting is self-defeating at best.  Try again.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Corsair on August 31, 2004, 05:31:22 pm
Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
When the whole "Freedom Fries" thing started here I took a position of "Here's a thought: If you've got such an issue with France, how about shipping back the Statue Of Liberty?"

Shuts 'em up quick.  People forget who helped out in the Revolutionary War here.  France and Spain.  A little gratitude wouldn't kill us.
[sarcasm]Mwuahahahaha. We liberated France in 1944! Without us, they wouldn't exist! They owe US![/sarcasm]
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Sandwich on August 31, 2004, 05:32:50 pm
You know, there's one way to destroy terrorism without firing a single shot against it.

Kill all the journalists. :doubt:
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Rictor on August 31, 2004, 05:35:28 pm
explain to me how this is terrorism, but turning Grozny into a bullet-ridden pile of rubble isn't?
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: vyper on August 31, 2004, 05:37:16 pm
@Sandwich : Tell me you jest.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Gank on August 31, 2004, 05:57:15 pm
Quote
Originally posted by ionia23


Ahh, I remember that colorful debate.  Wanted?  No.  Sure sounded that way at the time I'm sure.  Nerve gassing the very people you're supposed to be protecting is self-defeating at best.  Try again.


Poor attempt at deflecting your hypocracy.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Ace on August 31, 2004, 06:06:49 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
You know, there's one way to destroy terrorism without firing a single shot against it.

Kill all the journalists. :doubt:


...and the lawyers (afterall, they defend these terrorist scum in court! Stupid justice!)

...and the politicians (afterall, they're either speaking for the terrorists or are terrorist targets!)

...and the business people exploiting other countries (afterall, 'globalization' is something these folks hate)

...and members of all of the world's religions... (afterall, members of other religions these folks hate)

Damn, no one's left but a few atheist beach bums... :lol:

But in all seriousness, Sandwich is pretty close. Ignoring and censoring these people means that their 'message' isn't being spread.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: vyper on August 31, 2004, 06:12:49 pm
It also destroys freedom.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Knight Templar on August 31, 2004, 08:05:09 pm
Russian Bombings = Newsworthy because you don't usually here about this kind of **** going on in Russia. Personally, I think I'd be a nice change of pace to read about Chechens and Russians killing each other for a while. Iraq is so passe, and don't even get me started on the Palestinian / Israel snorefest...
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Taristin on August 31, 2004, 08:36:09 pm
You, Sir, are a humanitarian.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Ford Prefect on August 31, 2004, 09:40:48 pm
Kill all the journalists? I hope that's another way of saying "prevent consolidation of the media industry."

The journalist is possibly the most important person for the survival of a free society.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: StratComm on August 31, 2004, 09:49:40 pm
A responsible journalist, yes.  I can't honestly say that 99% of the media is currently acting responsibly though.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: karajorma on September 01, 2004, 04:09:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Corsair
[sarcasm]Mwuahahahaha. We liberated France in 1944! Without us, they wouldn't exist! They owe US![/sarcasm]


So there you go. America and France are even. Neither owe anyone anything so the Americans can stop acting like they were betrayed by the French not helping them.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: aldo_14 on September 01, 2004, 04:10:00 am
Attackers storm Russian school (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3616868.stm)
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Rictor on September 01, 2004, 07:55:20 am
I don't think even Putin is crazy enough to gas a school full of children, but we'll see.

...you know, any sensible Russian would have withdrawn by now. They're getting nothing but blood and danger because of the occupation, and AFAIK, Chechnya is not rich in resources or anything like that to justify the expense.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: aldo_14 on September 01, 2004, 07:58:19 am
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
I don't think even Putin is crazy enough to gas a school full of children, but we'll see.
 


He (or rather, the Russians) may have to... albeit I'd imagine a school is a more open environment and thus less suitable to that sort of tactic.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: kode on September 01, 2004, 08:33:58 am
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
Kill all the journalists. :doubt:


I remember how I once said something similar here. I think it was "Let's solve crime by killing the victims, shall we?".

It'd work. it's not a crime unless there are victims.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Janos on September 01, 2004, 08:54:08 am
Quote
Originally posted by kode


no. we are somewhat dismayed by their declaration of independence too, of course, but we do not despise the heathens.


You guys lost us to Russians in 1809, after which the Finnish independence movement gained momentum. We declared independence in 1917. That's 108 years of non-Swedish rule - you really think we would've joined you guys? :p
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: kode on September 01, 2004, 11:11:20 am
Quote
Originally posted by Janos


You guys lost us to Russians in 1809, after which the Finnish independence movement gained momentum. We declared independence in 1917. That's 108 years of non-Swedish rule - you really think we would've joined you guys? :p


and before that 600 years of swedish rule... so, yeah. it'd been better for you.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Flipside on September 01, 2004, 11:15:31 am
Let's face it, for most of it's existence Europe has been like some kind of huge wife-swapping party, so theres no point really making an issue of it :p
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: kode on September 01, 2004, 11:20:53 am
Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
Let's face it, for most of it's existence Europe has been like some kind of huge wife-swapping party, so theres no point really making an issue of it :p


land that's been in one countrys possesion for more than 200 years I see as belonging to that country.

I didn't say I wanted to make everything around the baltic sea ours again.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Flipside on September 01, 2004, 11:27:23 am
hehehehe Try telling that to Scotland ;)

You're lucky, our leaders still dream of Empire, and it's bloody annoying :(
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Gank on September 01, 2004, 01:07:17 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
I don't think even Putin is crazy enough to gas a school full of children, but we'll see.

...you know, any sensible Russian would have withdrawn by now. They're getting nothing but blood and danger because of the occupation, and AFAIK, Chechnya is not rich in resources or anything like that to justify the expense.


Yes it is, its rich in oil and natural gas, plus several important pipelines run through it. You dont honestly think the Russians are going to all this trouble for no gain? :rolleyes:
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Rictor on September 01, 2004, 01:12:16 pm
ah, that.

well, it all makes sense now.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Knight Templar on September 01, 2004, 10:28:58 pm
mmmmm oil...
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Bobboau on September 01, 2004, 10:35:39 pm
are we sure that the majority of the Chechens want independence?
why didn't they get out with the rest of the former USSR?
I seem to recal hearing about a vote that failed.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Rictor on September 01, 2004, 10:40:45 pm
they did get out...sort of. Then russia came swooping back in after several years.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: karajorma on September 02, 2004, 03:09:19 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
are we sure that the majority of the Chechens want independence?
why didn't they get out with the rest of the former USSR?
I seem to recal hearing about a vote that failed.


Chechnya wasn't a SSR. When the USSR broke up it broke down along the boundries that were already there.

This is like the difference between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Island becoming indepentant and Liverpool deciding it wants independance from England.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: vyper on September 02, 2004, 11:48:31 am
[q]hehehehe Try telling that to Scotland /[/q]

Why? It's not in English possesion it's land of the United Kingdom. There is a difference sir.
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Gank on September 02, 2004, 01:00:01 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
are we sure that the majority of the Chechens want independence?
why didn't they get out with the rest of the former USSR?
I seem to recal hearing about a vote that failed.


Google is your friend:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/section/Chechnya_History.asp
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: ionia23 on September 02, 2004, 02:25:46 pm
Interesting read.  It sounds like the Russian position is "Independence?  Fine.  But your dreams of building a totalitarian Islamic state modeled after Taliban-ruled Aghanistan is a pipe dream."
Title: bombing in Russia
Post by: Gank on September 02, 2004, 06:11:39 pm
Learn to read:
Quote
Tensions between the Russian government and that of Chechen president Dzhokhar Dudayev escalated into warfare in late 1994

Quote
In 1999, Islamic law was established.

Russias position has never been independance, Islamic state or not.