Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: F1gm3nt on September 01, 2004, 11:34:40 am
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"...many Muslims say they're frustrated that groups who carry out such attacks tarnish the whole image of Islam in the West."
http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/wrvo/news/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=679310
Really the kind of article that more Americans need to be exposed to, IMHO. It was a pretty good and insightful read no matter where you stand in your opinnions about the people of Islam. (terrorist and otherwise)
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Well, it's not surprising, I think it is slowly dawning on the world that this isn't a war on Islam, but the the Terrorists are trying to make it into one.
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It could just be where I go to college, or even just where I live but whenever I hear people talking about the war ing general, it's always "Muslims this and Muslims that...". Which is in a way bothe frightening and sickening, mostly because of the gross over generalization. I'm not Muslim, nor do I know anyone who is(to the best of my knolwedge.) I just hear people talking like I explained above and it smacks of the gross over generalizations that Hitler made prevalent about the Jewish people. *shrug* Just my Opinion.
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That is the danger, that the word 'Muslim' becomes synonymous to Terrorist. Part of the whole 'game plan' of the Terrorists is to create that image, note the heavily Islamic slant on all Terrorist videos. I know quite a few Muslims, and they are mostly just like Christians, many of them don't stop to pray every day, and only go to the Mosque for special occasions. Most of them observe Ramadan, but then, I observe Christmas :)
This whole 'enslaved to the word of God' thing is bandied about by radicals on both side of the argument, but you'll find the majority of most religions are just normal people who find comfort in their beliefs but have a real life to get on with :)
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It'd be nice if people would think before making stupid statements.
They're not kidnapping people for the sake of Islam. They're kidnapping people because there's a hostile military force occupying their country that they want gone.
So it doesn't really matter what the Muslims think of them.
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There are elements on both sides that want this War for Oil to turn into a a religious war. Those people are trying to imply that it is the will of God/Allah that they commit these atrocities.
The onflow from that is a growing distrust between Muslim and Christian which can only serve to aid their cause.
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:(
Well we can only hope, that one day there is peace between Islam world and Christian world that hattered is not needed but peoples don't listen until it's too late
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[q]peace between Islam world and Christian world[/q]
Someone give this guy a book he's not getting the point...
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I'm going to agree with anon on this one and say that people are generalizing it to be a conflict between the Muslim world and the Christian one, between civilization and barbarism, between those who love freedom and those....well, you get the idea.
The one thing this is sure to produce is ignorance. Even terrorists have reasons for doing what they do, and it is important to understand them. You may not agree, but it is important to understand.
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Yeah, I get point, but one thing is odd why France did ban those Islamic head scarves? they belong to Islam culture. and not every peoples who wear them are terrorist (or did world change that much after 9/11) and it's seem going worse
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no, France banned them to respect what they percieve to be secularism. But in reality, its as much a cultural thing as a religious one. A bad move on their part, considering France has a sizeable Muslim population.
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[q]but one thing is odd why France did ban those Islamic head scarves? they belong to Islam culture.[/q]
They banned them because France has had seperation of Church and State ingrained in thier culture since before you were born. It's not just headscarves, the law bans crucifixes, skullcaps, et al.
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Originally posted by an0n
It'd be nice if people would think before making stupid statements.
They're not kidnapping people for the sake of Islam. They're kidnapping people because there's a hostile military force occupying their country that they want gone.
So it doesn't really matter what the Muslims think of them.
They're kidnapping people because one of the 'nice' things about war is it allows sadists the opportunity to act out their fantasies with a free pass.
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Well France can either be anti-Semitic or Anti-Muslim, the poor bastards can't win either way :(
Seems to me they are being made scapegoats somewhat for doing what they feel is in their own interests, something every other country does.
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yeah, but thats taking secularism too far. I mean, my family was never too orthodox, but there are some people who feel that a burqa or a crucifix is part of their culture, their identity. The seperation of Church and State was designed to make religious intolerance unacceptable, not to destroy religious or cultural identity.
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I'm not saying it is the right thing to do, but if they feel it is the best way to avoid inter-racial conflict, I say let them give it a go, the outcome may serve as an inspiration or a warning, time will tell :)
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the ban is hardly the thing that'll inspire interracial conflict. The inability of some people to integrate into the country where they are guests is.
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Originally posted by vyper
They banned them because France has had seperation of Church and State ingrained in thier culture since before you were born. It's not just headscarves, the law bans crucifixes, skullcaps, et al.
But this isnt seperation of the church and state, its the opposite. If people want to wear crucifixs or headscarfs, its nothing got to do with the state.
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Well, not being funny, but everyones country defines the rules within it's own borders. Ivan is right when he says the inability to adjust to the basic structure of the country you are living in is a problem.
For example many British people retire to France or Spain and never bother to learn the local language, and then we wonder why they get the opinions of us that they do. Same with immigrants etc, I'm not suggesting that they totally abandon their own culture, but, were the situation reversed, they would at least epect us to respect their customs and ways.
Now, before anyone lights up, I'm not saying this is a universal occurence, but certainly in the UK, I have seen occasions of our our customs and ceremonies being altered to suit the strangely delicate dispositions of immigrants, whilst we try to bend over backwards to accomodate as many religious requirements as possible.
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[q]If people want to wear crucifixs or headscarfs, its nothing got to do with the state.[/q]
By wearing them in Schools they're bringing religous symbolism into education - thus it's against the french culture.
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Why do people have to take their caps and hats off and not their scarfs then?
Ever thought of that? :p
Methinks it's got nothing to do with religion but with school rules instead.
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yeah, but someone wearing a baseball cap cause it looks good is not the same as someone wearing a headscarf out of religious or cultural reasons.
its the same as taking religious holdiays off. I mean, I can technically take off Jewish holidays from school, so can Muslims or Christians. It has nothing to do with anyone else, which is I think the point of seperation of church and state: to prevent someone else from messing with the way you practice your religion, not preventing practicing religion at all.
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Wearing something that partially hides (or completly hides) your facial features is somewhat irritating to teachers...
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Originally posted by vyper
By wearing them in Schools they're bringing religous symbolism into education - thus it's against the french culture.
No they arent, they're just wearing something. This is an example of mixing religion and state, the french state is preventing people from pratising their religious beliefs.
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LOL Anyone here have family in France? Visited there recently? Have French in-laws/whatever that you keep up with... The French are a very nice, yet passive-aggressive people who take three things more seriously than anything else: Wine, Cheese, and Women. ;) Now, there has been for quite some time a problem with Muslim men treating French women badly. Why is this? Because they are whores. They are non-believing infidel whores who don't deserve the same respect as the upstanding, quiet, nice, covered, and servetile Muslim women. This has been percieved to be a problem for quite some time there. If you haven't noticed, they've been Deporting (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3764387.stm) certain Muslim religeous leaders who speak out a little too much. (Especially those that adamantly support the Islamic rule allowing for a husband to beat his wife under certain circumstances, as this is something that many French feel very strongly against.)
Deportation hasn't solved the problem of course. :( They want them to stop treating all the women badly. So, in the classic passive-aggressive French way, they have come up with a method that is fair to all, but that sends a very poignant message to the Muslims. Now their daughters will grow up to be just like the other French whores they're in school with... They can still be Muslim, but they must also be French. God I love the French! ;)(but that's a personal problem, and not a most commmon trait amongst Americans)
Discliamer: Now if you read over all of this, I would like to clarify a few things... I don't honestly feel this is how all Muslims act and belive. I, personally, know that this isn't how all Muslims are. But the ones who have a problem with this law, are the ones who feel this way... Did I mention that I love the Fench?
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Wasn't that ban only for government buildings, or something? Still not a great idea, in my opinion, but I didn't think it was for the general public.
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Originally posted by Gank
No they arent, they're just wearing something. This is an example of mixing religion and state, the french state is preventing people from pratising their religious beliefs.
ah, another one who doesn't comprehend laicité.
part of laicité means that pupils/teachers cannot bring religion into the classroom of public (staterun) schools. One of the reasons for this is that in classrooms of public schools all pupils are french first, something else later. Having a crucifix or so marks the pupil as something else first, french second which is unacceptable. A second reson is that classrooms are NOT the place to practice religion and weiring religious symbols is practicing. Note that people can wear religious symbols as long is it isn't done openly, so wearing a crucifix or David's star under your clothes is perfectly acceptable.
Wearing obvious symbols like crucifixes, skullkaps, veils is bringing religion into classroom of public schools. Hence laicité applies and the symbols must be removed.
What private schools do is their business.
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so what, are they supposed to wear the burqas under their skin or something?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
or maybe under another burqa...
Preventing someone from practicing their religion is exactly the thing that seperating the church and state was supposed to prevent. You have to understand Ivan that no one should be made to "switch off" their religion at any point, including school.
It bothers no one whether I wear a kippa (don't know if thats what its called in English, the Jewish cap thingy. Which I don't by the way, as I said my family is not particularly religious) or whether I wear a crucivix or whatever. Its not infirnging upon anyone else's right to practce their religion, and it doesn't impede the teaching process, so, who cares? To me, this relates to the "don't ask don't tell" policy for gays in the US military. You should not have to hide your identity, as long as you let others have the same rights you do.
I know several girls in my school who wear the headscarves, and its not an evil oppressive thing that is forced upon them by the fathers of whatever. Its just part of who they are, and they just treat it like any other piece of clothing.
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Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Wasn't that ban only for government buildings, or something? Still not a great idea, in my opinion, but I didn't think it was for the general public.
Yes, that is the case. This is why they think there will be a strong shift of Muslims to private schools or a home school alternative (don't know how that works in France). The problem is that it may further alienate the Muslim community in France. It could be that this is the intended goal... But as Crazy_Ivan80 said very well, I think the French want the Muslims to be like everyone else: "french first, something else later."
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Originally posted by Rictor
so what, are they supposed to wear the burqas under their skin or something?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
or maybe under another burqa...
Preventing someone from practicing their religion is exactly the thing that seperating the church and state was supposed to prevent. You have to understand Ivan that no one should be made to "switch off" their religion at any point, including school.
It bothers no one whether I wear a kippa (don't know if thats what its called in English, the Jewish cap thingy. Which I don't by the way, as I said my family is not particularly religious) or whether I wear a crucivix or whatever. Its not infirnging upon anyone else's right to practce their religion, and it doesn't impede the teaching process, so, who cares? To me, this relates to the "don't ask don't tell" policy for gays in the US military. You should not have to hide your identity, as long as you let others have the same rights you do.
I know several girls in my school who wear the headscarves, and its not an evil oppressive thing that is forced upon them by the fathers of whatever. Its just part of who they are, and they just treat it like any other piece of clothing.
Pointless argument. Religion is a choice. Sexual preference is a choice. Skin color, gender, and physical ability/disability are not. You can choose not to wear blah blah.
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The new law is actually forcing muslims to violate their religious beliefs. Its needless interference in their affairs.
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I don't understand why governments always think that this kind of thing will work. It doesn't solve anything. It's just so bone-headed.
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if they don't like the law they can
a) leave the country
b) go to a private school (I'm assumeing France allows private schools of a religous nature as a substitute for the public schools like we have in the US, but option (a) is still available)
now, I have been quite pissed at the french for the last few years, but that doesn't mean that I won't respect there attempts to maintain what they think is an appropriate environment for themselves in there own nation. if French culture is incompatable with someone's interpetation of Islamic law, then rather than changeing French culture I think it would probly be a better idea for that person to move somewere were they won't be affected by it.
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But how is wearing headscarves incompatible with being French. Unless they want to impose some sort of cultural unifromity, which these days most Western nations have accepted as impossible. Sure, you can be a French Muslim, but that doesn't mean you have to renounce being a Muslim.
As long as it harms no one, there is no reason to ban it. What France is doing here is actually limiting religious freedom and tolerance.
Yes, private schools exists, but there is no reason why public school should not be an viable option.
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[q]As long as it harms no one, there is no reason to ban it.[/q]
They believe it does harm people.
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Well, I can claim the moon in made of cheddar cheese, but that doesn't make it true.
...alright, in that particular instance, it is true, but you get the idea.
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If the majority of the french population elected a government that would pass a law saying the moon was made of cheese, it would be morally acceptable.
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Dude, if the French elected a government that would pass a law saying the moon is made of cheese, we would see the French space program fast-track with the billions in government funds, and the first of many moon missions launch within two weeks of the moon-cheese announcement.
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"But how is wearing headscarves incompatible with being French."
I don't know, I'm not French. too bad Nico left.
public schools are a viable solution so long as you are willing to abide by the rules of them. now if someone were to sudgest doing this here I would oppose it, but this isn't here this is the domestic pollicy of another nation and it doesn't go to some hanus extreem of human rights violation (like, 'kill all the jews', for example) therefore it's there right to chose what to do. if they think that overt religious sybolism causes the ability for childeren to learn to be erroded why should I tell them not to try it, maybe they are right, the over acomodation in our schools is, IMO, a major cause of our schools going into a state of craptastrophy.
as vyper said, they seem to think it does cause harm, it's there nation, it's there busness.
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Originally posted by Rictor
But how is wearing headscarves incompatible with being French. Unless they want to impose some sort of cultural unifromity, which these days most Western nations have accepted as impossible. Sure, you can be a French Muslim, but that doesn't mean you have to renounce being a Muslim.
As long as it harms no one, there is no reason to ban it. What France is doing here is actually limiting religious freedom and tolerance.
Yes, private schools exists, but there is no reason why public school should not be an viable option.
Man, I'll just go on talking to myself... :rolleyes:
Muslim men, the more extreme the more this is true, look down on non-Muslims to some extent. Now, it's OK for men because the non-Muslim men are not walking around blatantly displaying themselves in a way that the Muslims find offensive. This is not true of the women. I personally don't know of any case (in France) where anyone's been harmed, but they don't come close to treating the average French woman with anywhere near the amount of respect that is socially acceptable (you can imagine). This is not necesssarily following the tolerance that some interpretations of Islam is supposed to preach, but the mid-eastern interpretation is influenced very much by thier culture, which is not very tolerant (I have met and work with and am related to many people who are from and have lived in the mid-east and they are very, very nice people, and incredibly generous... but not always very tolerant of differences). This is threatening (some may say harmful) to the French culture and their values. Then again, the French culture is not incredibly tolerant either... as it seems...
An attack on French culture is an attack on France herself... or something like that... :blah: However, this is STRONGLY dependent (as with all religeons that people follow BLINDLY) upon the INTERPRETATION of the holy texts. So you will find some forms of Islam that feel very differently than others about how (much)-poorly women may be (mutilated)-treated. I for one do not believe Islam to permit some of the horrible attrocities that some cultures perpetrate upon women in the name of Islam.
Here is just ONE example that came up first in my 5-second google search, (Tolerant Islam (http://www.spiritonline.com/files/messages/11/271.html?0) ) of a light example where wives are put in their "place" in the name of Islam. OK boys, when you get married, try getting your wives to agree to all that... (not in America... or France for that matter ;) let freedom ring...) But many orthodox to ultra-orthodox Muslims treat non-Muslims as non-humans. I haven't studied the Quran... so I don't know if this is justified by the holy texts, it's just how it is. I've had the fortune to be friends with a number of more... liberal Mulsims, who believe just the opposite and that the world is all one community and everyone equal. But these people are not the trouble makers, the rabble rousers, the suicide... :sigh: well, you know...
Anyway, France chose not to respond to this intolerence by bending over backwards to let everyone walk over everyone... They respond by leveling the playing field, and letting everyone see each other on the same grounds. Once the Muslim children find this acceptable behavior, then they will grow up to be French Muslims (and probably more liberal) that don't see their Protestant or Catholic or Buddist or Jewish (etc... ad nauseum) French fellows as being anywhere beneath them.
The Muslims feel, justifiably so, that this is threatening at their cultural values. This is becasue they don't yet understand that they're playing with France's ball, and they have to adhere to FRENCH cultural values.
Now Jewish, Catholic, and Muslim children alike can run and play with each other, without the constant remider that they are different. At least until they get out of school and their parents get ahold of them and tell them how horrible their godless friends really are... There's no law against that yet (thankfully). :p
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Sweeping differences under the carpet doesn't work, because it doesn't make them go away. I understand that the French government has good intentions, but you can't reduce volatility in a multicultural society by making people pretend they're all the same. It's going to build a society that's less able to deal with further cultural evolution.
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there trying to get people who move to there nation to take on there nationality.
this seems logical to me.
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Would you be in favor of such a regulation here in America, then?
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I wouldn't suport it, but I see the point behind it. something like english being 'officaly' made the offical language I wouldn't have a problem with. aparently most French are in support of this and that's all that matters realy, you don't hear me going on about Hugo Chavez do you? I don't like the guy, but most Venezuelans aparently do, it's there country, it's there choice. if the french think that certan citizens within there nation are acting in a manner that goes against there national identity and they think this will corect it why tell them no?
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Well I don't think that we have any right to do anything about it. The government does, of course, have the right to pass whatever regulations it wants to. I'm simply expressing that I think it's the wrong decision. I think for a society to be free, the idea of national identity has to be abandoned because cultures aren't static; they evolve as they interact. I just hope that this isn't the direction in which France continues to move.