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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: karajorma on September 03, 2004, 05:02:58 am

Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: karajorma on September 03, 2004, 05:02:58 am: Looks like this wasn't planned though but in response to an explosion inside the school.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3624024.stm
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: vyper on September 03, 2004, 06:41:36 am: This is what happens when you play with fire.

What actually horrifies me is the fact I don't even see this as being very dramatic or meaningful - it's just another attempt by desperate people to get noticed.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Dark_4ce on September 03, 2004, 07:50:11 am: Lots of gunfire and battles going on. Many hostages saved. Even though its hectic, it seems to have gone down better then at the opera house.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: vyper on September 03, 2004, 07:54:16 am: ITN News got a cameraman inside the gym for about 2 minutes (before being ejected by Ruskie security) - he saw approx. 100+ dead bodies.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Setekh on September 03, 2004, 07:59:10 am: Yikes. This thing is horrible. I empathise with being afraid of becoming desensitised, vyper... most of my friends are the same, totally indifferent to stuff like this.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Hippo on September 03, 2004, 08:14:53 am: [q]A large number of people had earlier been seen fleeing the premises, many of them covered in blood. [/q]

... And that wasn't suspicious in the least?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Turnsky on September 03, 2004, 08:31:04 am: Quote
Originally posted by Setekh
Yikes. This thing is horrible. I empathise with being afraid of becoming desensitised, vyper... most of my friends are the same, totally indifferent to stuff like this.

indeed, unfortunately, children bear the brunt of these seemingly desparate people, who are trying to further their cause, which, only ended up vilifying it.. (people are gonna hate 'em more because of the actions of these people)

as for the children themselves, methinks the mental wounds would be more serious than the physical.. :blah:

but yeah, i'm getting a little indifferent to this.. 'cause action like this gets nobody anywhere, only injured or killed...:doubt:
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Rictor on September 03, 2004, 10:01:09 am: well ****e.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Bobboau on September 03, 2004, 10:31:42 am: I hope the Russians the best in dealing with this, and I hope that they can find the rest of the people responcable for this, and I hope they kill them. there is no excuse for this, it's a fucking school full of children, regardles of the situation in Chechnia the people responcable for this are criminals and need to be hunted down like the anamals they are.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Stunaep on September 03, 2004, 10:41:37 am: Chechen separatists.... right, and the 10 of them that were killed, were identified as arabs....

As for the solution, that was to be expected. The last time the russians had a large hostage crisis in their hands (the Nord-Ost crisis, which they also blamed on Chechens, that time justly), their 'rescue' operation also ended with a quarter of the hostages getting killed.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Stunaep on September 03, 2004, 10:43:19 am: PS. Euronews just stated that the russians were the ones who commenced the attack.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Stunaep on September 03, 2004, 10:48:05 am: Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
I hope the Russians the best in dealing with this, and I hope that they can find the rest of the people responcable for this, and I hope they kill them. there is no excuse for this, it's a fucking school full of children, regardles of the situation in Chechnia the people responcable for this are criminals and need to be hunted down like the anamals they are.

That is assuming that Chechens were behind the attack. Do note, that nowadays, the russians blame the Chechens for everything. If a country who has blamed an act of terror commited by their own national security agency on Chechen separatists, I'd take everything they say about the chechens with a grain of salt.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Unknown Target on September 03, 2004, 10:48:11 am: But see, killing 100+ innocent schoolchildren is not going to help your cause.

I wouldn't be suprised if the Chechyans themselves rejected this action.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Rictor on September 03, 2004, 10:52:35 am: Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep

That is assuming that Chechens were behind the attack. Do note, that nowadays, the russians blame the Chechens for everything. If a country who has blamed an act of terror commited by their own national security agency on Chechen separatists, I'd take everything they say about the chechens with a grain of salt.

Good point. What exactly are you reffering to though, it sounds like some black ops by Russia in the past.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Sigma957 on September 03, 2004, 11:34:28 am: Well no government deals with terrorist no matter who or how many hostages there are,sad fact is thats the stance on every government cause they can't open that door and the children had to pay the price on that decision :(
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 03, 2004, 11:39:10 am: This is exactly what I was afraid would happen. Unfortunately, the reality is those kids were going to be dead either way. This is all that would have saved some of them. dammit, dammit, dammit :(.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 03, 2004, 11:43:38 am: Reportedly - and this is from the Russians - they made a deal with the hostage takers to send in a small team to bring out the bodies of those killed on the first day.

During this, there was a small explosion which blew a hole in the side of (I think) the gym. The hostages started running out, and the terrorists responded by shooting at them and chasing out after them.

The Russians reacted to defend the escaping hostages, and as a result they had to follow through by storming the building.

I think, though, that this was inevitable.

NB: I'm unclear how the initial escape occurred...the russian military guy who talked on camera (albiet via a bad translator) said it was as a result of an explosion, but it's also been reported that the Russians themselves blew a hold in the wall when storming the building (not as reckless as it may sound, the terrorists wold have heavy barricading in the corridors).
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Stunaep on September 03, 2004, 11:44:11 am: Quote
Originally posted by Rictor

Good point. What exactly are you reffering to though, it sounds like some black ops by Russia in the past.

In 1999 an 8-floored buildingand a 5-floored building were destroyed in russia. over 300 people perished. THe russians were quick to blame it on chechen terrorists. Later it turned out, that the russian FSB (former KGB) did a series of training excercises in the area, and screwed up, blowing up the houses in the process. Finally the Russian goverment accepted, that it wasn't infact chechens, but rather the FSB.

Another interesting fact, the explosive that was used in blowing up the two airplanes a week ago, was the same that was used by the FSB in blowing up the two houses.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Taristin on September 03, 2004, 11:49:18 am: But supposedly it's a common and rather inexpensive explosive... So it's most likely as widely used as the Kalishnikov...(sp?)
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Stunaep on September 03, 2004, 12:01:02 pm: But do note, that the only one who profits from the two terrorist acts, is russia, and not by a small amount.
[edit]

and again, the 'chechen' terrorist group was made up of at least 9 arabs, and the better part of them came from other caucasian countries, not chechenya.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 03, 2004, 12:19:09 pm: Profits? how so?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Flipside on September 03, 2004, 12:20:20 pm: Apparently some of them are still holed up in the basement with an unknown number of children.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: übermetroid on September 03, 2004, 12:33:30 pm: anybody ever read rainbow 6? I wonder if something like that (the team , not the bad thing) will come true.

The world is starting to really need it too. :(
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 03, 2004, 12:35:41 pm: Quote
Originally posted by ubermetroid
anybody ever read rainbow 6? I wonder if something like that (the team , not the bad thing) will come true.

The world is starting to really need it too. :(

All we need is for foreign countries to allow the SAS in to assist in these sorts of operations.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: karajorma on September 03, 2004, 12:36:53 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep
But do note, that the only one who profits from the two terrorist acts, is russia, and not by a small amount.
[edit]

and again, the 'chechen' terrorist group was made up of at least 9 arabs, and the better part of them came from other caucasian countries, not chechenya.

Yeah but also remember that Chechenya didn't stand to gain much from the moscow theatre seige and they still gave that a damn good try.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 03, 2004, 01:08:22 pm: Kinda backs up my act-of-sadism argument nicely.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Rictor on September 03, 2004, 01:24:04 pm: the conspiracy-minded parts of my brain are starting to send to warning signals here.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 03, 2004, 01:28:09 pm: Terrorism is about the spreading of fear and the gaining of publicity. I'd say the Chechens did very well out of it in this respect.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Rictor on September 03, 2004, 01:33:02 pm: If thats all that terrorism is about, that it is the single most ineffective and absurd tactic in the history of mankind.

Every single example that I can think of has had the opposite effect, causing a retaliation and strenghtening the enemy's resolve. So, needless to say, I don't believe that thats all there is to it.

Every group, be it a terrorist group, a political lobby or an advertising agency, desires to be effective. If acts such as these have a long and proven history of being detremental to the cause they are trying to further, its stands to reason that more complex things are at work..

but thats just me.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Stunaep on September 03, 2004, 01:35:35 pm: Quote
Originally posted by karajorma

Yeah but also remember that Chechenya didn't stand to gain much from the moscow theatre seige and they still gave that a damn good try.

But these are different situations. You must understand, that the caucasian way of life condones blood revenge, but NOT the massacre of children. In the Nord-Ost crisis, it was revenge, and the chechenyans still had the support of the rest of the caucasian people. But taking children hostage is currently being condemned by every caucasian nation. Plus, Aslam Mashadov himself has offered to become a negotiator.

If russia can convince the world, that the Chechenyans were responsible for this act of terror, then the entire caucasia will be on the side of russia, which is something they've been wanting since the collapse of the USSR.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 03, 2004, 01:39:44 pm: Hate isn't a very complex reason, but it's a driving one - for one thing.

The other is that publicity and fear are very useful. Terrorists can't win a war on military terms - they're usually too few in number and don't strike military targets much anyways. But what they do, is try to make people question whether it's worthwhile.

If people are scared, and they can put a finger on why, then they may act. Sometimes it may lead to a strengthening of resolve - but if that isn't working as in Russia, what next?

We've also seen that retaliation strengthens the terrorists cause within their own people, boosting their recruits. Eventually, the idea is that they become so powerful that they are able to cause sufficient damage to make it an 'unwinnable war' for their enemy.

Whilst actions as morally rupugnant as taking hostage hundreds of schoolchildren won't impress your moderate-minded Chechen, these sorts of people aren't the type to join terrorist groups anyways.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 03, 2004, 01:46:45 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep

But these are different situations. You must understand, that the caucasian way of life condones blood revenge, but NOT the massacre of children. In the Nord-Ost crisis, it was revenge, and the chechenyans still had the support of the rest of the caucasian people. But taking children hostage is currently being condemned by every caucasian nation. Plus, Aslam Mashadov himself has offered to become a negotiator.

If russia can convince the world, that the Chechenyans were responsible for this act of terror, then the entire caucasia will be on the side of russia, which is something they've been wanting since the collapse of the USSR.

It's unclear as to whether this was motivated by Islamic fundamentalism to a degree.... i.e. by those wanting an Islamic theocracy in Chechnya. And to the extent of how much credence you give to the reports of 'Arab mercenary terrorists' being amongst the hostage takers (given that the Russians are not exactly the most reliable people at transparent government). i.e. people whose zealotry for their cause goes beyond what we would consider human decency, and into the realms of sheer irrational hatred.

I would not, however, fall into the trap of blaming this on international terrorism as Putin will - the reasons stem from Chechnya, no matter how much he would want to divert scrutiny from that.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fergus on September 03, 2004, 01:46:52 pm: What you need to understand is that Chechnya has been occupied for years by Russia. You NEED to see the streets of Grozny (Chechen capital) to understand, it's more like the scenes in Bosnia and Srebrenica than anything else. I agree the act is wrong but you have to understand that many many more people have been killed in Chechnya, soldiers, rebels or civilians. Think northern Ireland but everyone wants out of GB, it's full blown war and N.I. is almost ignored internationally.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 03, 2004, 01:54:32 pm: (http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/grozny1.jpg)
(http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/grozny7.jpg)
(http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/grozny6.jpg)
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Rictor on September 03, 2004, 01:56:51 pm: yes, but public opinion is of huge importance in unbalanced conflict such as this (where one side is vastly stronger). Look at how much its working to the benefit of Palestinians. You don't see any "Freedom for Chechnya" activists running around, do you?

The thing to remember is - well two things actually - is that, first of all, Chechen militants don't really have any great power backing them up, like the NVA had in Vietnam. America, the EU and all the rest are more than happy to look the other way if it means maintaining good relations with Russia. And the second thing is that things are about as bad for the Chechens as they're likely of get. Every crime, every humiliation, every slap in the face and kick in the ass that it is possible to have happen to you, chances are its already happened. Which means there is no longer the shock value of "the Russians killed by brother, I'm going to go join the rebels". Anyone who is likely to stand up and fight has, after a decade of occupation, already done so.

Put these two together, and you come to the conclusion that the Chechen militants are not likely to win this thing by a war of attrition. And what I am assuming is that whoever is running the show is aware of this fact. And even if it is possible to force out the Russians by attacking the civilian population until they simply stop thinking its worth it, how long will that take? 10 years, 20 years? More?

You may point to al Queda and 9/11, but thats not really the same situation. First of all, and no offence intended, Americans are more sqeamish towards casualties. And secondly, al Qeuda not only has vast funding, but they have a wide network of alliances and like-minded organizations all across the Middle-East. They can actually stand up to the Americans militarily and have a chance of forcing them out. Afganistan is partly (dare I say mostly) under rebel control. And Iraq isn't going to well, as anyone can see.

So, whether you agree or disagree with the Chechen rebels, it simply doesn't make sense to do this, from a rationl self-interest point of view. Unless there's something I'm missing, and there is an excellent possibility that there is, no one with half a brain would do what was done at that Russian school.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 03, 2004, 02:07:37 pm: Well, that's exactly what i mean.

No-one even cared about Chechnya - now it's on every news broadcast.

The Russians aren't afraid to fight a war of attrition.... but what about when it's civillians who are dying? Will the civvies put up with living under constant fear in order to keep a desolate slab of land thousands of miles from them? If not, who will they blame - the rebels or the person (Putin) who keeps Russian troops there?

For all the public opinion over Palestine, what has actually been achieved?

The Chechens (and i mean Chechen terrorists here), don;t give a flying **** about international opinion.... it's never done anything for them, so why should they care? All that matters is getting the Russians out. We know they can't do it militarily or politically, the Russian media is increasingly state controlled, so what can they do? Scare them out, perhaps. Maybe it'll take 10 years - maybe it'll take 10 months. If they keep on attacking schools, who knows?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fergus on September 03, 2004, 02:09:44 pm: I agree but I'm not sure this act was something that the whole of the Chechen rebels decided into as an entire entity. It would be unlikely that the whole of the resistance groups in Checnya are in contact with one another ( the Russins have been rather good at destroying just about every utility you can name [phone lines, water ect.]). That would make this less a colective effort and more an individual action in respect to a single group. Still it's getting harder and harder to for the average person to sympathise with one of the most horrendous casses of a big country beating up a little country. Putin had more or less got what he wanted.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fergus on September 03, 2004, 02:11:51 pm: "the Russian media is increasingly state controlled"

A point about that, it turns out (slightly unrelated but very important) that jurnalists have been "disappearing" in Russia. You make up your own mind.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 03, 2004, 02:16:37 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Fergus
I agree but I'm not sure this act was something that the whole of the Chechen rebels decided into as an entire entity. It would be unlikely that the whole of the resistance groups in Checnya are in contact with one another ( the Russins have been rather good at destroying just about every utility you can name [phone lines, water ect.]). That would make this less a colective effort and more an individual action in respect to a single group. Still it's getting harder and harder to for the average person to sympathise with one of the most horrendous casses of a big country beating up a little country. Putin had more or less got what he wanted.

I don't believe that either. I think there will be Chechen rebels who are more moderate and focused on guerilla warfare, and there will be some who are terrorists, and then maybe some who are Islamic radicals and thus prepared to be suicide bombers and commit this kind of act.

This was clearly organised, of course - there were something like 40 hoastake takers, well armed and with explosives (plus plans of where to use them) - and I'd hesitate to put this on the heads of every Chechen rebels rather than a particularly nutty subset of them.

I believe there has been some form of Al-Queda / Arab terrorism involvement, possibly not in terms of taking part in previous attacks but logistically or in training. This may be an evolution of that involvement.
( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3293441.stm - bottom )
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fergus on September 03, 2004, 02:32:29 pm: Possibly, but its not as if any of us are privy to any of the Intellignce services information and so it is not a good idea to speculate too heavily in any possible Al-Qaeda links. There is this horrible tendincy by the press to involve Al-Qaeda into EVERY attack no matter who they are.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Stunaep on September 03, 2004, 02:37:42 pm: Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14

I would not, however, fall into the trap of blaming this on international terrorism as Putin will - the reasons stem from Chechnya, no matter how much he would want to divert scrutiny from that.

Have you been following the news? For that matter have you even read my posts? If anything, Putin will do everything to blame it on the Chechenyans! Hell, he's been saying that the Chechenyans are involed in the actions of Al-Qaeda! He's been blaming the screw-ups of their own secret service on Chechenyans. It is in Russias best interests, to make seem like the Chechenyans were responsible for the hostage crisis, because it will turn the islamic and caucasian countries, who have previously been pro-chechen to the russian cause.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Stunaep on September 03, 2004, 02:41:18 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Fergus
"the Russian media is increasingly state controlled"

A point about that, it turns out (slightly unrelated but very important) that jurnalists have been "disappearing" in Russia. You make up your own mind.

Among them the journalist who revealed Russia's neglect of all human rights and warfare rules in the second Chechenian war. How convenient.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 03, 2004, 03:16:17 pm: He blames it on the Chechyans because a group of people representing them, by invitiation or not, continue to carry out these merciless attacks. Unless you happen to be Spain, Honduras, or the Phillipines, terrorism won't work.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Rictor on September 03, 2004, 03:19:09 pm: Sure as hell worked for the Russians though.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 03, 2004, 03:29:07 pm: I don't get it....
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 03, 2004, 05:16:37 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep

Have you been following the news? For that matter have you even read my posts? If anything, Putin will do everything to blame it on the Chechenyans! Hell, he's been saying that the Chechenyans are involed in the actions of Al-Qaeda! He's been blaming the screw-ups of their own secret service on Chechenyans. It is in Russias best interests, to make seem like the Chechenyans were responsible for the hostage crisis, because it will turn the islamic and caucasian countries, who have previously been pro-chechen to the russian cause.

By blaming it on international terrorism, Putin can try to deflect / prevent criticism of his policies in Chechnya, and also can attempt to use this to gain international support and aid.

I didn;t say he would claim it was, for example, an Al-Queda operation. What he will and, IIRC, is doing is associating Al-Queda with Chechen rebels for the above reason.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3625536.stm
" Certainly, the taking of children as hostages will have lost the Chechens rebels international sympathy. It will help Russia's arguments. One of the features of the war in Chechnya has been the lack of pressure on Russia, which has managed to link its own crisis to the wider American-led war against al-Qaeda. President Putin has made common cause with President Bush. "
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 03, 2004, 08:33:23 pm: So, is Russia's who reason for refusing to let go of Chechnya a pride issue? Is that all there is?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Rictor on September 03, 2004, 09:07:13 pm: erm, check in the other thread, gank mentioned oil and oil pipelines running through chechnya, which seems reason enough to me. it would appear that the Caucuses are to Russia what the Middle-East is to America.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 03, 2004, 10:51:35 pm: You make some pretty strong presumptions about what the middle east is to america.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Rictor on September 03, 2004, 11:04:37 pm: of course, how wrong of me. It is certain that no one, particularly not a father and son, have shown a rather strong inclinatiion towards, shall we call it an obsession, with the Middle-East.

It is also utterly certain[] that the US taken a consistantly hands-off approach to the region, particularly militarily. Another sure fact is that region is most certainly not rich in oil, and that by no means has any nation tried to secure that oil by force.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: redmenace on September 04, 2004, 02:03:53 am: Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14

By blaming it on international terrorism, Putin can try to deflect / prevent criticism of his policies in Chechnya, and also can attempt to use this to gain international support and aid.

I didn;t say he would claim it was, for example, an Al-Queda operation. What he will and, IIRC, is doing is associating Al-Queda with Chechen rebels for the above reason.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3625536.stm
" Certainly, the taking of children as hostages will have lost the Chechens rebels international sympathy. It will help Russia's arguments. One of the features of the war in Chechnya has been the lack of pressure on Russia, which has managed to link its own crisis to the wider American-led war against al-Qaeda. President Putin has made common cause with President Bush. "

IN GENERAL,
The US is fighting a general radical mindset. You can't just blame every on Al-Queda. Neither can russian. HOWEVER, I think you guys are right that he is trying to get international sympathy especially from the US by carelessly tieing it to Al Queda. We also have not gotten involved in the region partly because it is considered an internal russian problem and we don't have any national interests. And we are under the illusion that Russia is capable of making the right decision.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 04, 2004, 02:04:11 am: Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
of course, how wrong of me. It is certain that no one, particularly not a father and son, have shown a rather strong inclinatiion towards, shall we call it an obsession, with the Middle-East.

It is also utterly certain[] that the US taken a consistantly hands-off approach to the region, particularly militarily. Another sure fact is that region is most certainly not rich in oil, and that by no means has any nation tried to secure that oil by force.

I'm not even going to waste time with the 'obsession' rhetoric. That's just liberal buzzword crap and you know it.

Yeah, of course there's resources there we'd like to have greater influence with, if not control of. If you play "Civilization" or "Warcraft" or anything like that, prime strategy against an opponent is control of resources, preferably there. When it comes time for reconstruction Iraq is going to have to pay the bills, but that economy has been so battered they won't have squat for cash. How are they going to pay it? Oil. At least that's my thinking.

I'd like to think this would mean the return of below-a-dollar-a-gallon gas prices over here but I doubt it'll change prices at all. it will, however, make a number of refinery owners very rich. their costs will go down, our costs will remain the same as we will pay whatever the price happens to be.

Preventing Iraq from turning into another Yemen is good for everybody, not just America. If there's anything people ought to know by know is that the "war on terror", whatever that means, isn't America against Islam. No matter how you paint it, it isn't. And we aren't the only targets. Incidents in Spain and Russia should back that point up.

You seem to be under the impression our goal is to Americanize Iraq. It is not. Creating conditions for better trade and crushing out hotbeds for terrorist to hide out in is.

I agree with the principles. I do not agree with how we went about it.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: redmenace on September 04, 2004, 02:21:36 am: Just an FYI,
the deathtoll is being reported at being 200+
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3624024.stm
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Sigma957 on September 04, 2004, 02:25:05 am: Just heard on the news that 200 people have died in in that hostage situation. :(
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: StratComm on September 04, 2004, 02:36:44 am: Yeah the gym roof collapsed on top of a large number of hostages. Most unfortunate turn of events, but sadly I've been expecting it. Russia's prefered solution to these crises seems to be brute force.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 04, 2004, 03:01:49 am: Did IQ's drop suddenly while I was away? Read the damned news. Hell, pick a variety of sources to figure it out. The Russians didn't kill these kids. The hostage takers opened fire on them. These were a whole load of unarmed, starved, and dehydrated KIDS in a gymnasium? What part of that doesn't get through peoples ****ing heads?

Apologies for the rant, but I'm about sick of this ****. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out who the bad guys are in this.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Vanguard on September 04, 2004, 03:07:23 am: Then go take a break. You're about as emotional as the terrorists.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 04, 2004, 03:10:50 am: Quote
Originally posted by Vanguard
Then go take a break. You're about as emotional as the terrorists.

You're probably right. Plus it beats the alternative, such as supporting them.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Vanguard on September 04, 2004, 03:14:47 am: Teenage-like temper tantrums against the terrorists or teenage-like temper tantrums for the terrorists. We are screwed. :lol:
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Stunaep on September 04, 2004, 03:15:07 am: The news source comes from where? ITAR-TASS? The prominent Russian media?

If some of you could understand russian, I'd suggest you go watch RTVi, the only russian channel, that is still free media (and thus, not showing in Russia, only in foreign states).

I for one, have heard from multiple sources, that the Russians were the ones, who opened fire. You have to understand, that russia isn't the United States. Free media doesn't exist in there. You cannot just say "I've heard from a variety of sources" and expect that to cover it. If the sources are for example, ITAR-TASS, NTV, and Russian Goverment, you can be pretty sure, that you are getting the "adjusted" version of what happened.

And unless you haven't noticed, Putin already HAS international support for his policies in chechenya. All the atrocities that Russia has commited in there during the second Chechenyan war are being overlooked by most of the free world, in the interests of continued good relations with russia. What he needs now, is to gain the support of the caucasian nations, and islamic nations, who support chechenya, and this is precisely what this crisis is accomplishing.

another suspicious fact
After having two days to surround the school, the russian special forces, most of whom have KGB training, let several of the terrorists escape. Go figure.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 04, 2004, 06:06:44 am: I can see reason and common sense aren't going to cut it around here. Fine. The whole thing was a setup by the KGB to further support for the extermination of the Chechens.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Stunaep on September 04, 2004, 06:36:33 am: Reason and common sense don't work in a country with a 90 year track record of conspiracies, atrocities, and violence. We're talking about a country who has officially stated, that they will use force against their neighboring countries if the don't respect the human rights of russians living there (while completely ignoring human rights in their own soil) fact, a country who has blamed the screw-ups of their own secret service on fact, who has effectively eliminated freedom of speech and free media in their country, fact, who is making at least one completely unfounded attack on the treatment of Russians in estonia a month, (russians who are completely free to leave our country, but refuse to so, because the life in russia sucks monkey balls) fact who is the only one to benefit from the last two terrorist attacks, and not by a small amount fact, and who, after having two days to surround the school with special forces, most of whom have KGB training, let some of the terrorists escape fact.

I'm not saying the russians shouldn't have barged in guns blazing. I'm just saying blaming everything on the chechens, just because the russian media sais so, in spite of evidence pointing to the contrary, is naive at best.

If you'd take everything ITAR-TASS sais about Estonia at face value, then you'd probably put us next to South-Korea in terms of respecting human rights. I think you have the brains to figure out whether that's true or not.

[edit]
actually, belay the part about the three escaped terrorists. Since today morning, the russian newschannels have said the following.

First: Three terrorists were managed to escape.
Second: Three terrorists were captured alive.
Third: All terrorists were caught and destroyed.
Fourth: The number of terrorists is still unknown.

Tell me this doesn't sound suspicious.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Ghostavo on September 04, 2004, 07:33:04 am: 322 have died, many of those being children :(
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Gloriano on September 04, 2004, 07:40:13 am: That was big mistake going there guns blazing
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 04, 2004, 07:49:11 am: Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep

another suspicious fact
After having two days to surround the school, the russian special forces, most of whom have KGB training, let several of the terrorists escape. Go figure.

Not really.

The outer cordon was likely police & militia - there may have been a lack of co-ordination with special forces.

This was an IA, not a planned assault - so it would likely have been chaos within the school

The key concern with these terrorists was stopping them blowing themselves up with hostages, rather than capture. They possibly didn't even expect them to run, rather to find the nearest landmine and set it off.

There were literally hundreds of hostages - including adults - many of whom were injured, running about. The focus would be to get them safe and secure, and this would have complicated the operations.

You're talking about an operation to rescue an estimated 1,000 or so hostages (many who would be severely dehydrated), against terrorists prepared to kill themselves whilst detonating high explosives, launched in extreme haste. I'd hardly be surprised if some of the terrorists did get away.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Gank on September 04, 2004, 09:35:20 am: The actions within the school shouldnt have mattered, the Russians have had several days to cordon it off properly, nobody should have got out.

Regarding the Chechnya link:
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2004/09/7898e9d4-9756-4010-b2a0-7ea30380edbe.html
For Janos:
Quote
Basaev claimed responsibility for the October 2002 Moscow theater hostage taking after it occurred, and is widely believed to have masterminded, if not actually directed in person, the June raids into Ingushetia. But www.kavkazcenter.com, which is sympathetic to Basaev, carried on 1 September a denial that he is in any way connected to the events in Beslan. If one lends credence to that denial, then one logical conclusion is that the Beslan perpetrators may have served under Basaev and tapped his tactical expertise, then staged the Beslan raid independently.

Reuters on 2 September quoted North Ossetian Interior Minister Kazbek Dzantiev as saying that the Beslan hostage takers include both Ingush and Chechens, and that "they speak good Russian." Kavkazcenter.com, for its part, quoted Dzantiev as saying that there are also Ossetians and Russians among the militants. That Ossetians, who in contrast to all other North Caucasus ethnic groups are Christian, not Muslim, and who have traditionally supported Russia ever since their territory was voluntarily incorprated into the Tsarist Empire in 1774, should make common cause with the Ingush is surprising; that some Russians should join them is, at first glance, doubly so. But that solidarity could well be the product of shared despair at the poverty and corruption that, to varying degrees, bedevils all the North Caucasus republics. Such broadbased rejection of Russia's policies towards the North Caucasus calls into question President Vladimir Putin's repeated assertions that Islamic fundamentalism and Chechnya-based groups with links to Al-Qaeda are behind the recent spate of terrorist attacks in Russia. Valerii Andreev, head of the North Ossetian branch of Russia's Federal Security Service, dismissed the hostage takers' ethnicity on 2 September as irrelevant.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 04, 2004, 09:52:05 am: Quote
Originally posted by Gank
The actions within the school shouldnt have mattered, the Russians have had several days to cordon it off properly, nobody should have got out.

True, but i wouldn't construe what did happen as the Russians deliberately letting 3 of the terrorists escape, either.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: redmenace on September 04, 2004, 10:19:23 am: Being Reported:
Death Toll Rises in Russia School Standoff
Over 344 People, Including 155 Children, Killed; Putin Orders Regional Borders Closed
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Gank on September 04, 2004, 10:28:24 am: Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
True, but i wouldn't construe what did happen as the Russians deliberately letting 3 of the terrorists escape, either.

Nope, does make them look pretty incompetent though.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Janos on September 04, 2004, 10:29:14 am: Quote
Originally posted by ionia23

You're probably right. Plus it beats the alternative, such as supporting them.

NO MIDDLE GROUND EXISTS
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Gloriano on September 04, 2004, 10:30:44 am: FSB was not even ready, and failed big time but. What can you expect from FSB who are corrupted and there is criminal activity inside FSB... (hard line russian Generals must very happy now:rolleyes:

It's really sad that over 100 childrens did die :( (because russians can't handle that kind situation)
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 04, 2004, 10:34:54 am: Quote
Originally posted by redmenace
Being Reported:
Death Toll Rises in Russia School Standoff
Over 344 People, Including 155 Children, Killed; Putin Orders Regional Borders Closed

I get the nasty feeling Putin may be angling for a purge.

Quote
Originally posted by Gank

Nope, does make them look pretty incompetent though.

You make that sound surprising..........
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Janos on September 04, 2004, 10:38:22 am: Quote
Originally posted by Holy Imperial Gloriano
FSB was not even ready, and failed big time but. What can you expect from FSB who are corrupted and there is criminal activity inside FSB... (hard line russian Generals must very happy now:rolleyes:

It's really sad that over 100 childrens did die :( (because russians can't handle that kind situation)

The "Ministery of Internal Affairs' security force" is really efficient, brute, but efficient. In a good old Russian "cure the aids by killing the patient" way, but sometimes it just works like that.

I think they might have managed to make the resolve of this crisis a bit, if even not much, better, if the terrorists hadn't shot escaping children and Russians hadn't "LET'S ROLL".

Russian people are in the streets, claiming blood and "harder foreign diplomacy". Well thank God they aren't an democracy, and Putin is not bat**** insane, but it's a bit worrying.
See, rooting out the Chechen rebels - and more importantly the foreign mujahideen and islamists which got hold of the state in late 1990s - is a pretty sound and good idea, especially if reconstruction would start. Hearts and minds.
However, the Russian strategy is more like
"Let's bomb that village! Let's kill those rebels! Let's bomb that village! What civilians, there aren't any left--- oops erase erase, bomb that village! What reconstruction? These guys must pay for it!"
Obviously the ****ing best idea ever.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Rictor on September 04, 2004, 10:48:57 am: Hmmm, reminds me of the situation in Saudi Arabia where 3 terrorists also slipped by the military blockade surrounding the building. Now of course, this is not to imply that maybe, maybe someone looked the other way for a few seconds. No, perish the thought.

ionia, you just like the word "terrorist" and don't feel you have to do any thinking beyond that. Or are you naive enough to believe that the government, especially the Russian government and especially under Putin, will not lie or distort the truth? For ****s sake, the official story is almost always a lie or half-truth. The Putin government, and by extension the military, has an agenda. Its job is not to be nice or to be truthful or to make people happy, its job is to serve that agenda. Wow, big surprise there, kind of like 95% of other governments on Earth.

And if we're going to get into crimes, then:

Russian crimes = a nation in ruins and over 150,000 people dead (probably more, but who's counting eh). Several million suffering.
Chechen crimes = several hundred dead (Theatre incident and now this).

But because the Russian army has uniforms, their crimes are ignored. They're not terrorist, they...what?

Oh, and Stunaep, yes there is a free media in Russia, though its not very strong. Yes, Putin has taken steps to silence dissent, but its still a long way from an outright dictatorship.

Case in point, an awesome alternative media source, run from Moscow by mostly expats. Funny as hell too.
www.exile.ru
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Janos on September 04, 2004, 11:21:35 am: Quote
Originally posted by Rictor

And if we're going to get into crimes, then:

Russian crimes = a nation in ruins and over 150,000 people dead (probably more, but who's counting eh). Several million suffering.
Chechen crimes = several hundred dead (Theatre incident and now this).

But because the Russian army has uniforms, their crimes are ignored. They're not terrorist, they...what?

They are not terrorists, because they A) work for an army [which may do horrible ****, but they're just a tool anyways]
B) the army itself is propably gaining a lot from the conflict [It's the Russia!], but it has definately been the Army's decision to go to Chechnya. Instead it was the dudes WHO USE THE ARMY. Army is a tool, period. Note that I am not denoying atrocities committed by Russian army, but I am not aware of any unbiased studies which tell us how coordinated and common it is. The nature of Chechnyan conflict makes solid estimations nearly impossible and forces us to play on speculations. ****. If you can point one, thanks in advance.

Chechens are also pretty far from innocent - there has been pretty horrible **** happening on both sides in both conflicts.

However I just decided to point out that you, Rictor, in you above-standard morality sense should know that lesser of two evils is still evil. Killing 300 people - 100 were kids, or so I've heard - is still bad. Killing civilians randomly is bad.
However, Russian army atrocities do not justify the actions of Chechens. Yes, they help us understand the reasons and motives behind them, but they are still morally [from my viewpoint, note that I am a relativist, maybe] repugnant. Neither can Russian army's future actions be justified based on this incident.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Rictor on September 04, 2004, 11:39:34 am: I never tried to claim that the Chechens (Palestinians, Iraqi insurgents etc, depedning on the discussion) are innocent, only that both sides are guilty (to varying degrees of course).

I have made it clear on many occasions that I do not support violence against civilians, and I stand by that. I disagree with both the Chechen rebels and the Russian army's methods. But while I do not support the Russian goal, to occupy Chechnya, I do support the Chechen's goal, to end the occupation. And thats the real difference in my opinion. The end goal is still good, despite what has been done to achieve it, and though I do not support the way in which they are fighting, at least I support what they are fighting for.

If they want an Islamic state, so be it. Thats self-determination. And if they

___

Also, if individual soldiers within the Russian army are not to be held respnsible, then why should individual rebels be held responsible for their actions? All of these people who held up the school, they should be set free, cause they were just following orders.
See, works both ways?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Bobboau on September 04, 2004, 11:44:51 am: it's a lot easier to end up in an army if you don't want to be there than a 'rebel' group (also not wanting to be there)
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Rictor on September 04, 2004, 12:03:58 pm: thats a rather poor excuse, don't you think? We're talking about adults here, not little children. You make your own decisions, and you are held accountable for them.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Bobboau on September 04, 2004, 12:13:46 pm: I know 'rebels' do on occasion run through a place and force people to help them fight, but national drafts are more common.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Stunaep on September 04, 2004, 12:16:57 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Rictor

Oh, and Stunaep, yes there is a free media in Russia, though its not very strong. Yes, Putin has taken steps to silence dissent, but its still a long way from an outright dictatorship.

Should have elaborated on that, I meant free TV-media, which is since the social limb-cutting of Vladimir Kisselyov effectively dead, bar a few channels, that are produced in Moscow, but shown only in foreign countries.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 04, 2004, 04:54:43 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep

Have you been following the news? For that matter have you even read my posts? If anything, Putin will do everything to blame it on the Chechenyans! Hell, he's been saying that the Chechenyans are involed in the actions of Al-Qaeda! He's been blaming the screw-ups of their own secret service on Chechenyans. It is in Russias best interests, to make seem like the Chechenyans were responsible for the hostage crisis, because it will turn the islamic and caucasian countries, who have previously been pro-chechen to the russian cause.

(NB)

Quote
Excerpts from Putins speech - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3627878.stm

"One cannot fail to see the obvious. We are dealing here not just with separate actions aimed at frightening us, not just with separate terrorist sorties.

We are dealing with direct intervention of international terrorism against Russia, with a total, cruel and full-scale war in which our compatriots die again and again.

The entire world experience shows that these wars, unfortunately, do not end quickly."

Like I said.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Setekh on September 04, 2004, 08:21:55 pm: 320 dead. Unbelievable. :(
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Stunaep on September 05, 2004, 03:58:18 am: According to AFP, the number of the dead has now passed 400.

Oh and aldo, wait for it.

Also, I saw some other great quotes in that speech.

Quote
Today we are living in conditions which have emerged following the break-up of a vast great state, a state which unfortunately turned out to be unable to survive in the context of a rapidly changing world. But despite all the difficulties, we have managed to preserve the core of the colossus which was the Soviet Union.

You know, I'm really wondering why communism hasn't been declared a crime, unlike faschism.

Quote
Some want to cut off a juicy morsel from us while others are helping them.

The chechens suck, and people are helping them. So far so good.

Quote
Second, I think it is essential to create a new system for coordinating the forces and resources controlling the situation in the North Caucasus.

The peoples in North Caucasus (*ahem* chechens *ahem*) are ****ed.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Gloriano on September 05, 2004, 04:03:03 am: Quote
According to AFP, the number of the dead has now passed 400.

Oh dear lord:( really sad
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Sigma957 on September 05, 2004, 04:21:27 am: Yeh and more than half of them are children :( :(
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Stunaep on September 05, 2004, 04:27:03 am: oh, and apparently over 200 are still missing, so expect that number to escalate even further.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: karajorma on September 05, 2004, 04:33:52 am: Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep
You know, I'm really wondering why communism hasn't been declared a crime, unlike faschism.

Cause on paper communism is one of the fairest systems of government there is. Unfortunately in real life it tends to get subverted cause power corrupts.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 05, 2004, 04:45:19 am: Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep
According to AFP, the number of the dead has now passed 400.

Oh and aldo, wait for it.

For what?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Sigma957 on September 05, 2004, 04:48:45 am: Pity a resolution wasn't reached before all this death happened,surely there was a way out.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Janos on September 05, 2004, 07:50:37 am: Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
I never tried to claim that the Chechens (Palestinians, Iraqi insurgents etc, depedning on the discussion) are innocent, only that both sides are guilty (to varying degrees of course).
[/b]
Well of course. However, the comparison you presented was about as useful as "Stalin was worse than Hitler".

Quote

I have made it clear on many occasions that I do not support violence against civilians, and I stand by that. I disagree with both the Chechen rebels and the Russian army's methods. But while I do not support the Russian goal, to occupy Chechnya, I do support the Chechen's goal, to end the occupation. And thats the real difference in my opinion. The end goal is still good, despite what has been done to achieve it, and though I do not support the way in which they are fighting, at least I support what they are fighting for.
[/b]
End does not justify means. I support the Chechen independence, but lately the place has been changed into a piece of **** and jihadist playground, much like Iraq. If it were just armed combat against troops, fine by me. When it comes to killing civilians, it
A) will propably definately help their course
B) will bite them in the leg
C) rest of the world supports Chechens even less.

Quote

If they want an Islamic state, so be it. Thats self-determination. And if they
[/b]
You see there's a correct ans
Quote

Also, if individual soldiers within the Russian army are not to be held respnsible, then why should individual rebels be held responsible for their actions? All of these people who held up the school, they should be set free, cause they were just following orders.
See, works both ways?

Yup. However, you stated that Russian ARMY is a terrorist, which I find a bit ridiculous claim. I was addressing that.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: karajorma on September 05, 2004, 08:50:46 am: Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
Thats self-determination.

Except when you replace the word Chechen with ethnic Albanian right?

Cause when a majority of the people wanted to form an independant nation in your homeland then they're terrorists not freedom fighters bravely fighting for independance right?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: vyper on September 05, 2004, 10:14:28 am: [q]Except when you replace the word Chechen with ethnic Albanian right?[/q]

Consider we started bombing Kosovo before any ethnic cleansing began, I'd be careful about using that argument.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Bobboau on September 05, 2004, 10:24:54 am: ooooh!
someone's gona have a fight on there hands.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Gank on September 05, 2004, 10:33:30 am: Quote
Originally posted by Janos
Yup. However, you stated that Russian ARMY is a terrorist, which I find a bit ridiculous claim. I was addressing that. [/B]

I actually know a siberian who served in Chechnya, when you hear storys about prisioners been driven over with tanks and women being gang-raped to death then its hard to not see the Russian army as being terrorists. Tool or not, the russian army is as guilty if not far more than the "jihadis" of terrorism.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 05, 2004, 10:36:54 am: Well, it's good to see some people around here decided to let go of the "Secret KGB Conspiracy" cover up for what happened at the school. This is more like it.

What 'should' happen and what 'will' happen are two different things. Whatever the Chechens and Russia have been doing all along with simply continue.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 05, 2004, 10:41:34 am: Quote
Originally posted by Gank

I actually know a siberian who served in Chechnya, when you hear storys about prisioners been driven over with tanks and women being gang-raped to death then its hard to not see the Russian army as being terrorists. Tool or not, the russian army is as guilty if not far more than the "jihadis" of terrorism.

Great, Osama Bin Gank raises his voice in jihaaaaad. Freakin' lovely.

Here's a news flash for ya: In war, people do crappy things. Always. Everyone. Interesting that you'll mention this little nugget of information but you'll leave out what the chechen rebels do to their own populace, in addition to enemy Russian soliders and civilians from nearby towns. And now there's this stunt with the school....

No, if you've got to do a balance of guilt argument, your terrorist buddies have it way stacked against them.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Stunaep on September 05, 2004, 10:56:58 am: Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
Well, it's good to see some people around here decided to let go of the "Secret KGB Conspiracy" cover up for what happened at the school. This is more like it.

Not very hard to do, since the KGB doesn't exist for about 12 or so years.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fear on September 05, 2004, 11:00:19 am: ****ing muslim they deserve to die.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: karajorma on September 05, 2004, 11:17:54 am: Quote
Originally posted by Fear
****ing muslim they deserve to die.

Would you say the same about Christians? After all the majority of the population of the former Yugoslavia were christian and they got up to stuff just as dispicable.

Not to mention that about 40% of the SS were catholics too.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Bobboau on September 05, 2004, 11:19:57 am: he's being sarcastic,
and I think he's implying Americans are racists.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: 01010 on September 05, 2004, 11:20:20 am: Quote
Originally posted by Fear
****ing muslim they deserve to die.

Twat.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Gank on September 05, 2004, 11:22:18 am: Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
Great, Osama Bin Gank raises his voice in jihaaaaad. Freakin' lovely.

Ah shut up ya little turd, three years ago you'd have been cheering on the fearless chechnian freedom fighters in their fight on the godless commie russians, but now you got a new enemy. :rolleyes:

Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
Here's a news flash for ya: In war, people do crappy things. Always. Everyone. Interesting that you'll mention this little nugget of information but you'll leave out what the chechen rebels do to their own populace, in addition to enemy Russian soliders and civilians from nearby towns. And now there's this stunt with the school....

We were talking about the russian armys actions, not the chechnians. there was no need to mention their acts of terrorism, thats what the whole threads about. :rolleyes:

Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
No, if you've got to do a balance of guilt argument, your terrorist buddies have it way stacked against them.

Afraid not mate, if you want to count it by the numbers the Russians have the balance, not to mention the fact that it was the Russians who started the war. Plus men like Barayev, Basayev and Khattab would never have came into the positions of power they have (had in Barayev and Khattabs cases) had it not been for the russian invasion. So no, the guilt lies with Russia, they started the conflict, they brought the Islamists into power, indirectly or directly in some cases and one act of terrorism does not change this.

Quote
Originally posted by Fear
****ing muslim they deserve to die.

So do you.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Gloriano on September 05, 2004, 11:24:35 am: Quote
Originally posted by Fear
****ing muslim they deserve to die.

Are you stupid or something:rolleyes: there is lot Muslims
that hate terrorist, my friends that are muslims hate that what terrorist are doing for Muslim culture and believes.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 05, 2004, 11:26:25 am: Quote
Originally posted by Fear
****ing muslim they deserve to die.

prize A twat
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: karajorma on September 05, 2004, 11:27:30 am: Quote
Originally posted by vyper
Consider we started bombing Kosovo before any ethnic cleansing began, I'd be careful about using that argument.

The two situations aren't identical but the fact remains that the ethnic Albanians were in the majority in Kosovo. So surely by Rictor's own logic on this thread it sounds like he's saying that when they decided to declare independance Serbia had no right to try to send in the tanks.

I'd find that interesting considering the number of times Rictor has complained about the UN strikes to stop the tanks.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: jdjtcagle on September 05, 2004, 11:28:05 am: Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
he's being sarcastic,
and I think he's implying Americans are racists.

Still he needs to STFU
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: karajorma on September 05, 2004, 11:32:20 am: Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
he's being sarcastic,
and I think he's implying Americans are racists.

He should be more careful about how he says it. Especially considering the fact that many of us remember that he's an israeli.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fear on September 05, 2004, 11:40:56 am: i hate that culture completley ... they belive that if they will kill for thier god they will go to heaven, what the **** is this religon?

im not saying all muslims are ****ed as the terrostis, just mad drove me to wirte that massge. less than a week before they killed 13 people in a bus in israel, a 3 years old boy died.....god... the bus was right infront of my brother... you live in your reality , i wish i wasnt in mine.

if i offended anybody im sorry, i just get mad easily. specaily with this subject.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: jdjtcagle on September 05, 2004, 11:42:21 am: Leave the community... forget about us, because we now know about you
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: vyper on September 05, 2004, 11:44:25 am: [q]I'd find that interesting considering the number of times Rictor has complained about the UN strikes to stop the tanks.[/q]

Kara, my good man, this argument takes us down the road of "the UN/Nato should have bombed British forces in Ireland". It's a dangerous road. Non-interference _should_ be part of our culture these days - Star Trek had it right 40 odd years ago.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: vyper on September 05, 2004, 11:48:27 am: [q]less than a week before they killed 13 people in a bus in israel,[/q]

Yeah and not so long ago your so-called Army buried one of my citizens alive - a lovely young female British student who did nothing other than make a peaceful protest in front of an IDF bulldozer.

God aren't you people saints.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 05, 2004, 11:51:59 am: SO much for open minded liberalism. Someone told me I am as bad as the terrorists. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Whoopie doo. The guy made an off-the-cuff remark that he most certainly didn't mean. How about you self-righteous bastards get over it already, or is your so-called "give peace a chance" routine just a bunch of bunk?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fear on September 05, 2004, 11:53:07 am: Quote
Originally posted by jdjtcagle
Leave the community... forget about us, because we now know about you

tell me what the hell you want from me?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 05, 2004, 11:56:07 am: Quote
Originally posted by Fear
tell me what the hell you want from me?

You already did all that was necessary. An explanation, a retraction, and an apology for a statement made in probably justified anger. If that isn't good enough for anyone else, then they've got issues well beyond what can be resolved here.

Don't sweat it.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: vyper on September 05, 2004, 11:56:16 am: I think he wants you to **** off... Just a guess, he might be showing schoolgirl affection.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: karajorma on September 05, 2004, 11:56:21 am: Quote
Originally posted by vyper
Kara, my good man, this argument takes us down the road of "the UN/Nato should have bombed British forces in Ireland". It's a dangerous road. Non-interference _should_ be part of our culture these days - Star Trek had it right 40 odd years ago.

You miss my point. I'm not arguing about whether the UN should have acted or not. It's just that I've never heard Rictor say once that the tanks shouldn't have been moving in the first place.

When it's Russian tanks I've heard Rictor say several times that they should let the region be independant if they want to be. I've never once heard him say the same thing about Kosovo. In fact I've often heard him say the exact opposite and describe the KLA as terrorists.

In other words he makes it sound like the Serbians were justified to send tanks into Kosovo.

This is a complete reversal of his stance on Russian activities and I'd like to hear his explaination for it.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fear on September 05, 2004, 11:58:30 am: Quote
Originally posted by vyper
[q]less than a week before they killed 13 people in a bus in israel,[/q]

Yeah and not so long ago your so-called Army buried one of my citizens alive - a lovely young female British student who did nothing other than make a peaceful protest in front of an IDF bulldozer.

God aren't you people saints.

indeed, but you have to understand i dont always support my army. they dont reflect my opnions, basiclly they make mistakes.
unlike the the arabs we can say we made a mistake.

in my country im in the "right" ... its the largest basiclly its says "if you are an arab get the hell from my country but if you want to live in peace we dont mind."
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: jdjtcagle on September 05, 2004, 11:58:34 am: No don't sweat...
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Gank on September 05, 2004, 11:59:45 am: Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
I'd find that interesting considering the number of times Rictor has complained about the UN strikes to stop the tanks.

They werent UN they were Nato, UN approval was only gained after they happened.

Quote
Originally posted by vyper
Non-interference _should_ be part of our culture these days

No it shouldnt, however interference should be better thought out than it usually is, in Kosovos case strategic bombing of Serbia did nothing to halt ethnic tensions in the region, it fuelled them instead. Putting the KLA in power didnt exactly do much good for the situation either. Interference is ok, as long as its done the right way, unfortunatly it never really is.

btw the North did have a pro-union majority and still does afaik, so the situation isnt exactly the same. Plus you had the fact that British troops were actually deployed to protect the nationalists, not unionists confusing things.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fear on September 05, 2004, 12:00:15 pm: no really what the hell do you want?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: karajorma on September 05, 2004, 12:05:23 pm: Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
SO much for open minded liberalism. Someone told me I am as bad as the terrorists. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Whoopie doo. The guy made an off-the-cuff remark that he most certainly didn't mean. How about you self-righteous bastards get over it already, or is your so-called "give peace a chance" routine just a bunch of bunk?

There is no cause so right that you won't find an idiot following it. Just cause one or two so called liberals get hot doesn't mean that there is no value in the idea.

Out of all the people on the board I'm the one who should be the most personally offended as half my family on my dad's side are muslims. I'll argue with Fear until I'm blue in the face or he changes his opinion but that doesn't mean I'm going to suggest kicking him out of the community. If we do that we'll never prove to him he's wrong.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 05, 2004, 12:08:16 pm: Quote
Originally posted by karajorma

There is no cause so right that you won't find an idiot following it. Just cause one or two so called liberals get hot doesn't mean that there is no value in the idea.

Out of all the people on the board I'm the one who should be the most personally offended as half my family on my dad's side are muslims. I'll argue with Fear until I'm blue in the face or he changes his opinion but that doesn't mean I'm going to suggest kicking him out of the community. If we do that we'll never prove to him he's wrong.

On point 1, you're absolutely right.

On point 2, he did offer an explanation, retraction, and apology. People say pretty hot things when they get upset (myself, case and point).

Mind if I borrow your level-headedness for awhile? :)
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: karajorma on September 05, 2004, 12:08:46 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Gank
btw the North did have a pro-union majority and still does afaik, so the situation isnt exactly the same.

True but do you believe the situation would have been any different had only the south of Kosovo declared independance?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fear on September 05, 2004, 12:11:07 pm: Quote
Originally posted by karajorma

Out of all the people on the board I'm the one who should be the most personally offended as half my family on my dad's side are muslims. I'll argue with Fear until I'm blue in the face or he changes his opinion but that doesn't mean I'm going to suggest kicking him out of the community. If we do that we'll never prove to him he's wrong.

i will say it agian if i wasnt clear, i didnt meant the muslim, i can edit the massge dam it! i meant the terrosits. if you were offended i perosnally apologize... belive me i didnt meant.

so sorry karajorma , i hope oyu can forgive me you are one of those people i trully love in this community, so so sorry.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fear on September 05, 2004, 12:12:37 pm: Quote
Originally posted by ionia23

On point 1, you're absolutely right.

On point 2, he did offer an explanation, retraction, and apology. People say pretty hot things when they get upset (myself, case and point).

Mind if I borrow your level-headedness for awhile? :)

thnx for the backup.
i really got upset after reading the number of casualtis, its reminded me my reality.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Gank on September 05, 2004, 12:12:40 pm: Quote
Originally posted by vyper
Yeah and not so long ago your so-called Army buried one of my citizens alive - a lovely young female British student who did nothing other than make a peaceful protest in front of an IDF bulldozer.

God aren't you people saints.

If you're talking about Rachael Corrie she was a US citizen. You might be getting confused with Iain Hook, an aid worker killed by the IDF in Jenin a few months before, or James Miller, a TV cameraman killed in Rafah (same place as Corrie was killed) by the IDF a few months after. Or possibly Tom Hurndall, whos a vegetable after being shot in the head by the Israelis in Rafah a month after Corrie was killed.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: karajorma on September 05, 2004, 12:16:12 pm: Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
On point 2, he did offer an explanation, retraction, and apology. People say pretty hot things when they get upset (myself, case and point).

Yeah but I still don't like the way he's blaming them without qualifying whether he means muslims or just the terrorists. The comment about believing that God will let you into heaven if you kill for him is equally applicable to christians and jews so it doesn't constitute much of an apology in my eyes. There are plenty of nut cases in all religions ready to kill for it. Singling out muslims is just a case of finding excuses for bigotry.

Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
Mind if I borrow your level-headedness for awhile? :)

I can share it partially but I can't give it all away. I need it to survive this place :D
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fear on September 05, 2004, 12:16:18 pm: as far a i know Tom Hurndall died by the terroists.

i belive that every religon got it dark side, jew 2k years ago, christians in the medival age or 500 year ago,
muslim dark period is now.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: karajorma on September 05, 2004, 12:22:05 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Fear
i will say it agian if i wasnt clear, i didnt meant the muslim, i can edit the massge dam it! i meant the terrosits. if you were offended i perosnally apologize... belive me i didnt meant.

so sorry karajorma , i hope oyu can forgive me you are one of those people i trully love in this community, so so sorry.

I can empathise. Living in Israel you must turn on the TV and see another attrocity committed every day by those damn muslims. But what you've got to remember is that you're not seeing the stuff you're doing to them. The civilian death toll on the Palestinian side is way higher. Their news reports would be worse than yours but you simply don't see them.

What both sides need to realise is that it's the inability of your leaders to grow up and act like proper human beings that causes the problem. The vast majority of jews and muslims just want to live in peace.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: jdjtcagle on September 05, 2004, 12:24:11 pm: I'll be back when I control the frontal lobes of my brain...
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Gank on September 05, 2004, 12:27:19 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Fear
as far a i know Tom Hurndall died by the terroists.

Dont know much then do you seeing how hes still alive :rolleyes:
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fear on September 05, 2004, 12:29:20 pm: Quote
Originally posted by karajorma

I can empathise. Living in Israel you must turn on the TV and see another attrocity committed every day by those damn muslims. But what you've got to remember is that you're not seeing the stuff you're doing to them. The civilian death toll on the Palestinian side is way higher. Their news reports would be worse than yours but you simply don't see them.

What both sides need to realise is that it's the inability of your leaders to grow up and act like proper human beings that causes the problem. The vast majority of jews and muslims just want to live in peace.

and we both know it wont going to happen... because we are the "conquers" the big bullis. and they (from your side of your view..) are the weak kids.

your tv decide to give you the weak side, mine decide to give me the weak side. infect we both suffer from this war wich us The israelis didnt start it! .

by the way.. until rabin has died we lived in peace... they have decided to change thier mind.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: vyper on September 05, 2004, 12:30:52 pm: Yeah Gank, that was a brain fart on my part.

I still think it's out of order anyway.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: vyper on September 05, 2004, 12:32:54 pm: [q]until rabin has died we lived in peace[/q]

Wasn't he the one shot by an Israeli?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fear on September 05, 2004, 12:35:04 pm: Quote
Originally posted by vyper
[q]until rabin has died we lived in peace[/q]

Wasn't he the one shot by an Israeli?

yes it was the "guy".. he died because he belived in peace.
a trully great man.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Janos on September 05, 2004, 12:43:14 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Gank

I actually know a siberian who served in Chechnya, when you hear storys about prisioners been driven over with tanks and women being gang-raped to death then its hard to not see the Russian army as being terrorists. Tool or not, the russian army is as guilty if not far more than the "jihadis" of terrorism.

Russian "heavy-handed" :rolleyes" [read: horrible] approach to Chechnyan mutinies/whatever is what indirectly forced the insurrection to change form and rely on more criminal actions.

I was more referring to dictionarial (is that a word? I DO NOT KNOW) meaning of terrorist. Someone doing horrible **** does not automatically make him a terrorist, especially if he's in the armed forces, political goals, yadda yadda yadda, that stuff.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Gank on September 05, 2004, 12:44:33 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Fear
your tv decide to give you the weak side, mine decide to give me the weak side. infect we both suffer from this war wich us The israelis didnt start it! .
Ya it was the palestinians who declared independance and drove the jews from their land:rolleyes:

Quote
Originally posted by Fear
by the way.. until rabin has died we lived in peace... they have decided to change thier mind.

You do know Rabin was killed by a right wing jew right? And Israel and the Palestinians have never been at peace? He was a good man though, worthy of the Nobel prize he recieved. Far better than the warmongering troll yis elected last time round.

This discussion aint going to go anywhere though, been done to death a few times here.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Gank on September 05, 2004, 12:52:33 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Janos
I was more referring to dictionarial (is that a word? I DO NOT KNOW) meaning of terrorist. Someone doing horrible **** does not automatically make him a terrorist, especially if he's in the armed forces, political goals, yadda yadda yadda, that stuff.

terrorism

n : the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear.

I believe the Russian armys actions would fall under this definition. Words getting too politicised these days.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fear on September 05, 2004, 12:56:06 pm: damn you i can get anymore angry than i am!
first of all, when the british left israeli there was 2 countrys! israel and palestin. somehow the leader of the palestinians decided he want all the terrtoriy to himself, and not just what he got(by the way he got way more than the israelins). he decided to go on to war, he lost badly...

when he palestinians lost a small group(israelin , i think...) decided they will take the justice to thier hand they slaughter more than 30 people(unarmed in a small vilage) or something like that and that called the "nakba", they acctually compared thier 30 man to the 6 milli jews that was killed in WW2. after that happend the palestinians was scared to death and they ran for thier life.

so yes you can say we drove them from thier land but u can say aswell we won, fair and squre, and in a war there is some ugly scene.

and yes i know rabin die by a "right wing" man called yagel amir.
and please correct yourself he was extremly right.

by the way sharon is a great man...a great great man and there is many others to support me.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Bobboau on September 05, 2004, 01:03:10 pm: actions of individual solders in an army does not make the entier army a terrorist organiseation (it does make the individuals war criminals) unless these despicable acts were carried out in acordence with orders from very high in the army.

you know I think the israeli conflict and the fact that so many people in europe suport the palistinians is becase of a refusal to accept that someone can take and keep land in a war.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Rictor on September 05, 2004, 01:05:47 pm: the UN does not, nor do the British, have the right to create a country on someone else's land. Thats like if I sold my neighbor's house, it doesn't work, its not mine to give away.

and in any case, if you want to talk about what land belongs to Israel fair and square, taking as given the legitimacy of the UN's actions, then Israel proper is either a) the area granted by the UN mandate in 1947 or b) the area won by the War of Independence in 1948, the so called Green Line. Neither of these includes the West Bank and Gaza.

Sharon is not a great man. He is a war criminal, and was indicted as such by Israeli courts in 1983.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Janos on September 05, 2004, 01:12:11 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Gank

terrorism

n : the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear.

I believe the Russian armys actions would fall under this definition. Words getting too politicised these days.

But wait, does the Russian Army [most of it, at least, let's use 50% majority rule or something] as an independent force follow an agenda or is it the higher command which uses the Army as a tool?!?!?
What the **** are we arguing anyways. I shall still stand proud and defend my statements until my connection fails. internet

also:
Quote
ionia23 and Fear decided to announce:
DUNN DUNN DUNN
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Bobboau on September 05, 2004, 01:12:20 pm: well hell John Kerry is, by his account, a war criminal, and nobody seems to give a damned about it
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fear on September 05, 2004, 01:15:43 pm: sharon is a great man!!!! we will leave gaza\west bank once the palestinians will have a gvorment that acctually work infect he support the idea to give them idenpence aslong they will just be in peace with us.

bobboau ;) , in the indepence war we didnt had an army... allthough we had 1 major "army" that was called "ha hagana(the defence)", IDF wasnt exsit at that time. those who killed them didnt not belong to "ha hagana".

i cant remeber the name of the orginazition ther were in, though to israel they are war criminals.israel didnt not support that action!
EDIT:

The british mendat decided to dvide palestin to 2 countrys... and that was because that country was belong to the brtish
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: vyper on September 05, 2004, 01:21:37 pm: [q]sharon is a great man!!!![/q]

So was Hitler at first...
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fear on September 05, 2004, 01:25:37 pm: omg you just saied sharon=hitler... god dude... that is just cruel...

OMG dude you dont ****ing have the right to say that!!! you cant even think how insulting it is!!!!!!! dam u!

i will not even try to explain you what is the diffrences btween them or what they stand for. you just dont deserve it anymore.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Janos on September 05, 2004, 01:26:29 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Fear
sharon is a great man!!!! we will leave gaza\west bank once the palestinians will have a gvorment that acctually work infect he support the idea to give them idenpence aslong they will just be in peace with us.
[/b]
This is indeed written in the stone and seen in the stars, and will happen 100% certainly [referring to retreat from West Bank especially), no doubt.
... what, with the recent plans to build more colonies?

Quote

bobboau ;) , in the indepence war we didnt had an army... allthough we had 1 major "army" that was called "ha hagana(the defence)", IDF wasnt exsit at that time. those who killed them didnt not belong to "ha hagana".

Sabra and Shatila.

Quote

i cant remeber the name of the orginazition ther were in, though to israel they are war criminals.israel didnt not support that action! [/B]

Many Palestinians do not support the actions of Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Al-Aqsa's Marthyr's Brigade, Janos Superior Spastic Army or whatever, either.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Janos on September 05, 2004, 01:27:40 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Fear
omg you just saied sharon=hitler... god dude... that is just cruel...

OMG dude you dont ****ing have the right to say that!!! you cant even think how insulting it is!!!!!!! dam u!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHAHAHHAHAHA HAHHA

INTERNET WINS AGAINS

[Dude, you are funnier than FreeRepublic.com]
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fear on September 05, 2004, 01:28:57 pm: you say things that infect arent true, many palestin do support those organzition.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Gank on September 05, 2004, 01:29:13 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Fear
damn you i can get anymore angry than i am!
first of all, when the british left israeli there was 2 countrys! israel and palestin. somehow the leader of the palestinians decided he want all the terrtoriy to himself, and not just what he got(by the way he got way more than the israelins). he decided to go on to war, he lost badly...

Not true, the conflict was long underway before the british left and the proposed partition was unpalatable to the jewish population as it would not have left them in the majority in the state they were to get. The war was long begun by the time the british withdrew and the UN partition plan

Quote
Originally posted by Fear
when he palestinians lost a small group(israelin , i think...) decided they will take the justice to thier hand they slaughter more than 30 people(unarmed in a small vilage) or something like that and that called the "nakba", they acctually compared thier 30 man to the 6 milli jews that was killed in WW2. after that happend the palestinians was scared to death and they ran for thier life.

Eh, no. The Nabka was the name for the palestinian exodus, which was somewhere from half to 1 million people fleeing their land, often being forced off it like at Lydda where 60,000 were forcibly expelled, or at Haifa where they were literally pushed into the sea in boats. The event you are reffering to may be Deir Yassin, or one of the other massacres listed here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_committed_during_the_1948_Arab-Israeli_war
There was no one single incident which caused the flight though, bar Zionism itself.

Quote
Originally posted by Fear
by the way sharon is a great man...a great great man and there is many others to support me.

Aye, this great great man drew up a plan to invade a neighbouring country which resulted in 30,000 of its citizens dead, over a thousand Israelis, near 300 US Marines dead and the creation of whats arguably the worlds most dangerous terrorist organisation. Not to mention he was found to be directly responsibly by his own government for the massacre of 1000+ women and children. Ya, hes great all right, the same way hitler was great. He too had many supporting him.

Btw, are all Israelis this ignorant of their own history?

Quote
Originally posted by Fear
sharon is a great man!!!! we will leave gaza\west bank once the palestinians will have a gvorment that acctually work infect he support the idea to give them idenpence aslong they will just be in peace with us.

Sharons on the record as saying he will NEVER allow a palestinian state to exist.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fear on September 05, 2004, 01:29:48 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Janos

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHAHAHHAHAHA HAHHA

INTERNET WINS AGAINS

[Dude, you are funnier than FreeRepublic.com]

its not funny, its not even a thing to joke about.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Gank on September 05, 2004, 01:35:01 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Fear
i cant remeber the name of the orginazition ther were in, though to israel they are war criminals.israel didnt not support that action!

Irgun and Lehi, as for Israel not supporting them, at least 3 Israeli leaders are former members :rolleyes:

Quote
Originally posted by Janos
But wait, does the Russian Army [most of it, at least, let's use 50% majority rule or something] as an independent force follow an agenda or is it the higher command which uses the Army as a tool?!?!?

Do the Al-Queda foot soldiers follow an agenda or are the tools? If you knowingly commit an atrocity, the fact that you are just following orders is no excuse.

Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
you know I think the israeli conflict and the fact that so many people in europe suport the palistinians is becase of a refusal to accept that someone can take and keep land in a war.

this refusal comes from a 1000+ history of near constant warfare which tells us that occuping another peoples land against their will never works unless you commit genocide against them. It also comes from the fact that we look upon the UN charter as a set of rules to follow, not a tool to be used when it suits us and ignored when it doesnt. Right of conquest has no place in a civilised world Bobboau, and its about time some of you right wing twats accepted it.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Bobboau on September 05, 2004, 01:36:07 pm: "Sharons on the record as saying he will NEVER allow a palestinian state to exist."
he's a polititian, he says many things

heh, seems I was right.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Janos on September 05, 2004, 01:37:17 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Fear

its not funny, its not even a thing to joke about.

Hey wait, this is the Internet. You get that? Ok, you do. See, there's one basic rule we have here.
Your opinions, gender, age, nationality, religion, sex, hair color, looks, style, family, hobbies, fears, rights, strenghts, weaknesses, love, hate, cats, dogs, ponies, everything like that,
are horribly uninteresting, totally irrelevant to conversation and useless if the discussion is not about them. We don't fear you. You cant quell different opinions here. Actually, you can't even change anyone's opinions. Nobody takes anyone seriously. You look - and most likely are - an prick for ever expressing them. STFU .
Spoiler:
This applies to everyone on the internet.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Gank on September 05, 2004, 01:39:11 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Janos
Nobody takes anyone seriously. You look - and most likely are - an prick for ever expressing them. STFU .
[/B]

:nod:
kills time though
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Bobboau on September 05, 2004, 01:39:34 pm: "Do the Al-Queda foot soldiers follow an agenda or are the tools? If you knowingly commit an atrocity, the fact that you are just following orders is no excuse."

I think he meant does the whole thing as a whole act to kill inocent people or is it simply an unintended side effect.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fear on September 05, 2004, 01:40:01 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
"Sharons on the record as saying he will NEVER allow a palestinian state to exist."
he's a polititian, he says many things

heh, seems I was right.
\

bob just for the record i love ur comments.

and yes he says many thing, but what maked him great he change his mind to what we ask him :) .

janos Stfu alreay you arent funny /smart.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: karajorma on September 05, 2004, 01:47:08 pm: Come on guys. Calm down and stop insulting each other or this topic will be closed and that would be a shame as I still haven't heard an answer from Rictor.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Janos on September 05, 2004, 01:47:33 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Gank

Do the Al-Queda foot soldiers follow an agenda or are the tools? If you knowingly commit an atrocity, the fact that you are just following orders is no excuse.

Well that's my weak point, but trying to compare Russian conscript-based, horribly funded and ****ed up, ****ty army with forced service with terrorist movements was not a bright idea from the beginning.

Code: [Select]
Big Boss to army: "bomb ****" then army: "k ****" Officer to NCO: "do ****" Consript: "i want to go home, **** you guys" NCO: Hits Conscript for +4 splash damage! Conscript: "k" Mission accomplished! You have killed 12 villagers!

whereas:
Code: [Select]
Idiot: "durr I report to my closest Terrist Training Station!" Big Boss to Idiot: "bomb ****" Idiot: K Idiot Bombs Village! We must build up our defences!
i am really good at making strawmans you know
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Janos on September 05, 2004, 01:48:53 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Fear
\

janos Stfu alreay you arent funny /smart.

But you gave me so many laughs. :(
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: jdjtcagle on September 05, 2004, 01:48:53 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Janos

i am really good at making strawmans you know

this is the internet no one cares...
remember? :p
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Janos on September 05, 2004, 01:49:56 pm: Quote
Originally posted by jdjtcagle
this is the internet no one cares...
remember?

well i don't care if you said that i said that i shouldn't care so i can care and you should too because i don't care
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: jdjtcagle on September 05, 2004, 01:51:29 pm: you never said I shouldn't care... so go ahead and care for I don't care
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Rictor on September 05, 2004, 01:52:17 pm: Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
Come on guys. Calm down and stop insulting each other or this topic will be closed and that would be a shame as I still haven't heard an answer from Rictor.

gathering my sources, since anything I say without supporting evidence will be taken as bull****, and rightly so.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Gloriano on September 05, 2004, 01:52:21 pm: Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
Come on guys. Calm down and stop insulting each other

:nod: and Back topic Please
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Bobboau on September 05, 2004, 01:53:54 pm: [edit] maybe I spoke too soon
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: jdjtcagle on September 05, 2004, 01:54:56 pm: Rictor always takes alot of time to post, as he gathers resources...
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: vyper on September 05, 2004, 01:56:09 pm: Russian army run on wodka, even big big tank....

I jest not it's ****ing drowning in Alcoholism.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Fear on September 05, 2004, 01:57:07 pm: Quote
Originally posted by jdjtcagle
you never said I shouldn't care... so go ahead and care for I don't care
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Janos on September 05, 2004, 02:04:44 pm: Quote
Originally posted by vyper
Russian army run on wodka, even big big tank....

I jest not it's ****ing drowning in Alcoholism.

And abuse, and horrible physical violence, and Russian incapacity in dealing with anything that matters. Suicides are really common, physical violence is expected, there are basically no vacations, the hardware is in ****ty condition and when it comes down to war, the training and bad tactics and strategies cost a lot of men.

Russia really needs an voluntary army.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Gank on September 05, 2004, 02:22:01 pm: Oh aye, and how many members do you think this voluntary army will have?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Janos on September 05, 2004, 02:57:31 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Gank
Oh aye, and how many members do you think this voluntary army will have?

Nowhere near two million, I'm sure. Bet they could number several hundred thousands, IF Russia gets their economy together and IF the Army becomes a better place and IF they can actually pay the troops and IF x1000

:/
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Bobboau on September 05, 2004, 03:39:25 pm: our military is (currently) all volunteer,
what do we have, like 2 million?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: StratComm on September 05, 2004, 03:43:40 pm: Combat I think the US has something like 750,000, but there's a lot of non-combat positions too that would get deployed with combat troops. The official count is somewhere between 1 and 2 million I think, plus civilian positions.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Vanguard on September 06, 2004, 02:29:46 am: Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
Someone told me I am as bad as the terrorists.

Actually I said you were "about as emotional as the terroists." While I do consider that bad, I don't consider it as bad as actually being a terrorist. If that part of the post was in reference to me, I politely ask you utilize any self control available and not spin my original words like that. Such distortion is not becoming of someone who wishes to make rational judgements free of overly virulent passions.

If that part of the post was in reference to someone else, please disregard my post here in full and accept my apology.

I can say an apple and an orange weigh the same. That doesn't make the apple an orange, does it?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Bobboau on September 06, 2004, 02:36:06 am: I think he's been called that a few times, I seem to recall something about Fajujah and nerve gas...
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 06, 2004, 03:55:00 am: Quote
Originally posted by Gank
Oh aye, and how many members do you think this voluntary army will have?

How bad is unemployment in Russia?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 06, 2004, 05:20:53 am: Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
I think he's been called that a few times, I seem to recall something about Fajujah and nerve gas...

That's me.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Rictor on September 06, 2004, 09:12:11 am: well well well

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1802&ncid=1802&e=2&u=/washpost/20040906/ts_washpost/a64187_2004sep5
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Stunaep on September 06, 2004, 12:25:59 pm: somehow, I told you so, just doesn't cut it.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: karajorma on September 06, 2004, 12:51:29 pm: Well there's news that anyone with half a brain could figure out.

When on Friday the news agencies were still saying that only 300 people were in the school it was fairly obvious to everyone that the news agencies weren't telling the truth. To be honest I can't think of a good reason why they'd do it unless they were planning to storm the school later.

As for the lower death toll that's probably just the way the russians work. In the west we over estimate and work down. In russia maybe they underestimate and work up.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 06, 2004, 03:39:33 pm: So they downplayed how bad it really was. Whoopie doo. What's that mean?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Rictor on September 06, 2004, 03:51:24 pm: It means they would readily lie to cover up inconvenient facts. This instance, in and of itself, is not that important, sort of like when Bush said he saw the first plane hit on TV even though there was no footage available at the time. It is relatively benign, however, its shows the capacity and willingness to lie. And from there, you use your imagination.

Quote
"It doesn't suit our president," a Kremlin political consultant, Gleb Pavlovsky, said on the broadcast. "Lies, which really acted in the terrorists' favor, did not suit him at all. Lies were weakening us and making the terrorists more violent."

Notice how the emphasis is on the lies being revelaed not because people ought to know or anything like that, no, its suited Putin.

Quote
"At such moments," anchor Sergei Brilyov declared, "society needs the truth."

So, presumably the media, that is to say the government (state run, remember) decides what society needs and when. Cool, no independent thinking involved.

Quote
The broadcast included no apology and referred only to the most blatant misstatement by officials, the claim that only 354 hostages were inside the school. It did not acknowledge that the hostage-takers had demanded an end to the war in Chechnya (news - web sites) or that the government continues to give conflicting information about whether any of the guerrillas remain at large, who they were and how many were killed.

That sort of speaks for itself.

So now, who is at fault? Am I paranoid for not taking the Russian ****ing government's word on it, or are you naive for believing that a man like Vladimir Putin would never, ever decieve anyone.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 06, 2004, 05:17:57 pm: It isn't the deception that anyone should take issue with, it is the quality of that deception. So the death toll was much higher that originally let on. What's that really change in favorite of the people who carried out this act in the first place, and the people/causes they were representing? All that does is reinforce anger further. Governments not being totally straightforward is something I have come to expect. If the Average Joe can do it, I'm never surprised when it happens further up the chain.

Brilliant move, really. By the terrorists choosing to do what they did, they have safely guaranteed that Chechnya will never be free.

See, Ghandi had it right. That guy was able to face down the British empire. He didn't need to strap plastic explosives to his body and wander into a pub in London. No. He defeated his oppressor by irritating the hell out of him. He made him self annoying and obnxious, and made it clear he wasn't going away. It worked. he forced his opponent to look bad to the rest of the world and they won.

Desperation or no, once you bring in deliberate, targeted acts against civilians, I don't give two ***** what you're fighting for. Whatever cause you had hops right out the window.

How you can sympathize with this escapes me. have you no shame whatsoever?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: karajorma on September 06, 2004, 06:01:41 pm: Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
See, Ghandi had it right. That guy was able to face down the British empire. He didn't need to strap plastic explosives to his body and wander into a pub in London. No. He defeated his oppressor by irritating the hell out of him. He made him self annoying and obnxious, and made it clear he wasn't going away. It worked. he forced his opponent to look bad to the rest of the world and they won.

Desperation or no, once you bring in deliberate, targeted acts against civilians, I don't give two ***** what you're fighting for. Whatever cause you had hops right out the window.

I've got to say that I agree with you there. Ghandi and Martin Luther King achieved far more peacefully than most terrorists ever do.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 06, 2004, 06:02:06 pm: Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
How you can sympathize with this escapes me. have you no shame whatsoever?

You can sympathize with the Chechen people without condoning this sort of action. Same as you can sympathize with the Russians suffering due to terrorism without condoning war crimes commited in Chechnya.

If every person in Chechnya approved and participated in the attack, maybe you could drop sympathy. But to do otherwise is narrow-minded - there's plenty of terrorists who use the actions of the minority (the US army or government) to justify attacking the majority (the people).

I've not seen any approval of the terrorists, needless to say. In fact, sympathy doesn't imply approval or condoning an act.

(NB: 'war crimes' is the military legal equivalent of terrorism, IMO. I don't think we need to debate the application of 'terrorism' to military personal, because we already have this suitable term)
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 06, 2004, 06:09:22 pm: Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14

You can sympathize with the Chechen people without condoning this sort of action. Same as you can sympathize with the Russians suffering due to terrorism without condoning war crimes commited in Chechnya.

If every person in Chechnya approved and participated in the attack, maybe you could drop sympathy. But to do otherwise is narrow-minded - there's plenty of terrorists who use the actions of the minority (the US army or government) to justify attacking the majority (the people).

(NB: 'war crimes' is the military legal equivalent of terrorism, IMO. I don't think we need to debate the application of 'terrorism' to military personal, because we already have this suitable term)

That makes total sense. Yeah, it's possible to sympathize with the plight 'behind' a terrorist attack without condoning the attack itself. However, the plight absolutely never justifies the attack itself, which some people around here (and they know who they are) try to do.

Think on this: Does anyone really believe that the actions of terrorists are truly for whatever cause they happen to get on about? I mean, a classic example is Operation Rescue over here, an anti-abortion organization (headed by a man, which I find very amusing). They claim to be about saving the unborn, when their actual agenda is the subjugation of women.

I no more believe that the terrorists who committed this recent act in Russia were about freedom for the Chechen people than I believe Operation Rescue is about saving unborn children. The action defines the original intent.

As I wrote in another post, the problem with war and warlike conditions is that it hands a free pass to sadists allowing them to commit whatever atrocities they want in the name of "insert cause here".
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 06, 2004, 06:19:17 pm: Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
I've got to say that I agree with you there. Ghandi and Martin Luther King achieved far more peacefully than most terrorists ever do.

Wow, I said something agreeable. Go figure :). Thanks.

It just makes sense. Terrorism doesn't work. Irritation does. One of the many reasons we have Gay Pride rallies out here. I mean, not that we're that open minded over here as a culture twords homosexuals anyway (a little better than we were), but how responsive do you think the public would be here if homosexuals pushed for equal rights by blowing up coffee shops full of patrons?

*thinks*

Okay, they can blow up Starbucks. No complaints here :).
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 06, 2004, 06:21:12 pm: Quote
Originally posted by ionia23

That makes total sense. Yeah, it's possible to sympathize with the plight 'behind' a terrorist attack without condoning the attack itself. However, the plight absolutely never justifies the attack itself, which some people around here (and they know who they are) try to do.

Think on this: Does anyone really believe that the actions of terrorists are truly for whatever cause they happen to get on about? I mean, a classic example is Operation Rescue over here, an anti-abortion organization (headed by a man, which I find very amusing). They claim to be about saving the unborn, when their actual agenda is the subjugation of women.

Frequently, yes. I think most terrorists believe what they do is 'valid', possibly simply just to convince themselves to do it.

From a personal point of view, I don't really regard terrorists as particularly rational or sane people... what we see as senseless slaughter or violence is to them a valid target or operation for their cause. It's a worldview warped by hate and grief and god knows what else.

And I can sympathise with them for those conditions that have caused this... loss of rationality. Revenge is a frequent and powerful motive, and we've all experienced it to some degree.

But I can't sympathise with the actions they take..... killing is never a solution.

(Of course, this only applies to certain groups. Some are just plain brainwashed and/or nuts)
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 06, 2004, 06:24:48 pm: Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
From a personal point of view, I don't really regard terrorists as particularly rational or sane people... what we see as senseless slaughter or violence is to them a valid target or operation for their cause. It's a worldview warped by hate and grief and god knows what else.

I think you're absolutely right on that. It does require a certain sense of insanity (or courage, or brazen cruelty, depending on who you ask) to carry out acts such as this.

So, what you're saying is, the solution is to clean up the conditions that create an environment where terrorist acts seem to be 'the way to go'. Is that right?

I'd be all for that. My only question would be, how could one accomplish that without giving the message that terrorism 'works'?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Vanguard on September 06, 2004, 06:30:11 pm: Invalidating the cause of a people who have done nothing in support of acts of terrorism is a double edged sword. With that kind of "logic" you can legitimize things like the fall of the WTC Towers on September 11th and attacks on American troops in Iraq.

I don't believe every man, woman, and child in Chechnya condoned or cooperated with these terroists anymore than I believe that every American soldier in Iraq condoned or cooperated with the abusers at a certain sadistic prison. But if I choose to ignore the distinction, suddenly everything and everyone becomes a viable target.

bin Laden attacked innocents on September 11th who did nothing to harm him. He used a murderously sweeping generalization to kill thousands based upon his tainted views. Should we too look upon the Palestinians and Basques and all the other nations without states in the same light?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Vanguard on September 06, 2004, 06:35:40 pm: Quote
Originally posted by ionia23

My only question would be, how could one accomplish that without giving the message that terrorism 'works'?

No matter how you do it, some people are going to scream that offering these people an open hand is sending that very message. Sometimes you just have to be brave and take the heat on the home front as well. Too often, politicians are not.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Vanguard on September 06, 2004, 06:39:59 pm: Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14

And I can sympathise with them for those conditions that have caused this... loss of rationality. Revenge is a frequent and powerful motive, and we've all experienced it to some degree.

Bingo! :yes: I can't see anything wrong with feeling sympathy for the people who are undeniably living under the shadow cast by a government that is bellicose towards them empowered by a military not known for its hospitality during occupations. If feeling sorry for the kids there who have yet to do anything atrocious is the same as cheering on terrorists then people have some seriously whacked beliefs. Take some pills or something. A lot of them. :nod:
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 06, 2004, 06:40:43 pm: Quote
Originally posted by ionia23

I think you're absolutely right on that. It does require a certain sense of insanity (or courage, or brazen cruelty, depending on who you ask) to carry out acts such as this.

So, what you're saying is, the solution is to clean up the conditions that create an environment where terrorist acts seem to be 'the way to go'. Is that right?

That's exactly my philosophy.

Quote
Originally posted by ionia23

I'd be all for that. My only question would be, how could one accomplish that without giving the message that terrorism 'works'?

That is arguably the hardest task of all.... hence why no-one seems to try it.

First thing, I guess, would be general goodwill - spend a lot on projects that help globally (i.e. clean water for Africa). Make these key to the governments interests - i.e. so an attack upon them is seen as an attack upon these projects.

In other words, help a 3rd party out first. Show that you can do so.

Second, is possibly the hardest of all. Publicly say you're (Russians, US, etc) willing to talk about the situation and resolve it. This is hard as hell, because you need to drop the old desire for justice. It may be impossible. It may not be necessary, of course. It depends on....
(NB: the key aspect is to recognise both sides see each other as 'criminals'...option 2 is to hold everyone accountable for real or imagined crimes, which may lead to resentment)
EDIT; this is the trickiest thing to resolve.... how do you broker a 'solution' that will remove peoples wish for revenge, especially when the arch-villians are men (or women, let's not be sexist :) ) with a role as spiritual or political figureheads. Maybe it's not even necessary.... maybe you can just create conditions that stop the recruitment process, and 'ride the storm' as it were. I really don't know.

Thirdly, place the 'power' in the hands of the people. Terrorists gain support because they excercise - or claim to - the will of a usually opressed people. Remove that opression / disenfranchisation, and the people won't need terrorism to speak for them. This may require removing undemocratic governments that support you, and actually encouraging hostile ones to express their view.

Fourthly, guarentee safety. Of everyone. i.e. if Israel gives up Palestinian regions, then it must be assured of sovereignty and safety.

Fifth, maximise the use and power of the UN as a neutral third party...even if they hurt your interests in doing so.

Of course, this is a 5 minute summary of ideas (may not work atall, it's 12:45 am and I've not really thought this through).... it'll never happen, because it would require governments and people to drop self-interest.

And it's a bastard to work out.

But part 1 would defo be a start. :)
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Rictor on September 06, 2004, 06:44:19 pm: So, ionia, if you believe that terrorist organizations are rarely if ever fighting for their stated cause, then it stands to reason that you feel the same way about governments, si?

While I do favour non-violence, very much so, I also believe, and have for some time, that Ghandi for example was an isolated incident, a man with the right vision at the right time that allowed for decolonization without violence. He happened upon the closing periods of the British Empire, where countless other colonies (not only British) were declaring indepedence.

Yes, Ghandi was able to pull it off, and yes, the way he handled things should be looked up to, but will it always work, or even most of the time? No. For one thing, there are certain sections of the world which frankly no one gives two ****s about. Chechnya is one of them. There are many countries in which injustices equal to those perpetrated upon (and continue to be perpetrated upon) the Palestinians or the Iraqis are occuring, and yet not so much as a single story about them. Chomsky (among others) did a media analysis for the genocide in Cambodia under Pol Pot, and similar events in East Timor (perpetrated by the invading Indonesian army). In the mainstream American media (as well as I believe major European media, not quite sure on this point), there was hardly a mention, I mean literally a mention, of the crimes in East Timor, because Indonesia was an official ally and was using mostly US weapons to murder Timorese. Pol Pot however, being a Commie and an official enemy, recieved enormous attention. The disparity between media coverage for the two cases was something like thousands of times the order of magnitutde.

Stuff like nonviolence, hunger strikes and all that, it only works if someone is actually watching. And thats why I favour brining Chechnya to the world's view, because that would make non violence a hell of a lot easier. For every Nelson Mandela that declares victory, there are ten who are executed. And I for one do not really regard the Russians (or most other government and armies for that matter) as jolly old fellows who get queasy when a few thousands Chechens are murdered. Hard though it may be to accept, there are times when military resistance is simply the only alternative.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Flipside on September 06, 2004, 06:55:48 pm: This is why there is such a problem in Iraq, alas, a general free-for-all for anyone there helping. It's a pity, because the ones that generally suffer are the ones that do want to make Iraq a better place. It's the policies of those who just want Iraq that are getting them killed.

If I were Putin, my first step would be to step down on my army. Hard. The anger of the Chechnyans is, in some ways, justified, as horrible as it is that children should suffer.

It makes me wonder whether Putin has actually lost control of his own army, after all, Russias strength always came from it's Generals, not it's head of State. it's almost as though they've set up little Baronies in there.

Stopping the atrocities won't heal the wound, but it would at least give a chance to grieve and maybe think. The problem is that the Chechnyans have far more to grieve for than the Russians. The only way things are going to change is if people stop turning a blind eye. What happens in Chechnya every day is worse than what happened in Abu Ghraib, and needs to be as publicly scutinised and condemned in precisely the same way.

Basically, they won't do anything if they don't think anyone will stop them.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Vanguard on September 06, 2004, 07:00:45 pm: Yes, but unfortunately some peoples sweeping anger would have us consider them all terroists and bomb them all. I admit I'm curious how much ordnance (in tons) it might take to finally subdue any resistance.

Russia still possesses one of the most powerful militaries in the world, yet for the better part of a decade a bunch of ragtag insurgents have staved off their own destruction with AK-47s and anti-armor weaponry. Therefore I wonder if high-alt bombing would actually accomplish much. Well, accomplish anything more than another dreadful school siege.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Rictor on September 06, 2004, 07:06:46 pm: Flipside: exactly. I absolutely agree.

except the part about Putin. Now, I'm not really qualified to speak about Russian politics, other than what little I read, but it seems to me that Putin is in full control. Given that he comes from a spy/military background, and that he is quite the authoritarian, my opinion is that he is not powerless to stop hardline policies by te military, but rather that he is thier source. Sure, there are tons of things that could be done if one goes into it with the aim of preventing violence, righting wrongs and actually doing a damn thing about helping the downtrodden and oppressed. But who ever said that is the aim of the Russian government, and Putin specifically? I simply can't bring myself to believe that that man (or, said I've said, most heads of state around the world) values human life. Everything he has done appears to the contrary.

But others than that, right on.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: karajorma on September 07, 2004, 03:48:49 am: Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
For every Nelson Mandela that declares victory, there are ten who are executed.

And how many terrorists can claim victory? The numbers aren't even that high.

Besides eveyone is watching Palestine so why haven't they tried it there?

Some people resort to violence even when it's not the best answer just because it's easiest way for them to get power.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 07, 2004, 05:00:29 am: Putin blasts U.S. on terror stance
From CNN Moscow Bureau Chief Jill Dougherty
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 Posted: 2:48 AM EDT (0648 GMT)

Mourners weep over the coffins of hostages killed in the siege.

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VIDEO
The first of many funerals begin in the Russian town of Beslan.

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Arab world responds to terror caused by Muslim extremists

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Putin vows to step up war on terrorists after bloody week

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Timeline reconstructs bloody end to hostage standoff.

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• Gallery: Bloody end to school siege

• Gallery: Victims mourned

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• Russia mourns siege victims
• Families begin burying dead
• Putin: 'An attack on our country'
• Chechen figure condemns acts
• Doubts cast on Chechnya policy
• Siege prompts Arab horror
• Interactive: School grounds map
• Timeline: How siege unfolded
• Eyewitness: Death and horror
• 'We'll shoot until our guns stop'
• Siege jolts world leaders

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MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin has said that mid-level officials in the U.S. government were undermining his country's war on terrorism by supporting Chechen separatists, whom he compared to al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

Putin's charge, made in a meeting with a group of western foreign policy experts, came just days after hundreds of people, mostly children, died in the bloody end to the Beslan siege.

Putin also defended his government's decision to storm the school and said the hostage holders had begun shooting children out of boredom.

His comments did not suggest the final raid was triggered by the shooting of children.

In the wide-ranging meeting which lasted almost four hours, Putin said he likes President Bush, calling him a friendly, decent, predictable person.

But Putin said each time Russia complained to the Bush administration about meetings held between U.S. officials and Chechen separatist representatives, the U.S. response has been "we'll get back to you" or "we reserve the right to talk with anyone we want."

Putin blamed what he called a "Cold War mentality" on the part of some U.S. officials, but likened their demands that Russia negotiate with the Chechen separatists to the U.S. talking to al Qaeda.

These are not "freedom fighters," Putin said. "Would you talk with Osama Bin Laden?" he asked.

Putin said the Chechen separatists are trying to ignite ethnic tensions in the former Soviet Union and it could have severe repercussions.

"Osama Bin Laden attacked the United States saying he was doing it because of policies in the Middle East," Putin said. "Do you call him a freedom fighter?"

Putin's comments came a few weeks after the U.S. granted asylum to Ilias Akhmadov, the "foreign minister" of the Chechen separatist movement.

The Russian president also justified the rescue operation in Beslan, conceding that it took time to mobilize the operation.

He said Russian special forces stormed the school knowing they themselves were likely to be killed.

In one dramatic moment, Putin said Russian security forces overheard a disturbing walkie-talkie conversation between the terrorists:

"What are you doing? Why? I hear some noise. What's going on? I'm just in the middle of shooting some children."

"They were bored," Putin said. "So they shot children."

Putin said investigators determined the hostage takers included 10 fighters from "Arab" countries, along with others from the former Soviet Union and one person from North Ossetia where the hostage crisis unfolded.

Putin said the terrorists' goal was to ignite conflict between two local ethnic groups, the Ingush and the Ossetians.

In other comments, Putin said Russia would take its own approach to democratic reform.

"We'll do this at our own pace," he said. Democracy can mean different things in different countries, he said.

"In Russia, democracy is who shouts the loudest," he said. "In the U.S., it's who has the most money." - Putin, today.

Interesting.

As i said earlier, any hope Chechnya ever had for turning into the fundamentalist nation it wanted to be is gone.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 07, 2004, 05:14:27 am: Quote
Originally posted by ionia23

As i said earlier, any hope Chechnya ever had for turning into the fundamentalist nation it wanted to be is gone.

I don't think Chechnya wanted to be a fundamentalist nation, just an independent one.

The rest of that article....

Probably not accurate to draw a comparison between the Chechen situation and the Us-Middle East one, because Chechnya is more political than religious IMO (excepting the fundamentalist hardcore that are commiting these terrorist acts). And also that the issue is not the leader of the Chechen terrorists, but the civllians caught on the ground.

Also
"In Russia, democracy is who shouts the loudest," he said. "In the U.S., it's who has the most money." - Putin, today.. He's right about the US democracy, but I'm not sure Putin is the one to preach about the way forward......

The Russian president also justified the rescue operation in Beslan, conceding that it took time to mobilize the operation.

He said Russian special forces stormed the school knowing they themselves were likely to be killed.

In one dramatic moment, Putin said Russian security forces overheard a disturbing walkie-talkie conversation between the terrorists:

"What are you doing? Why? I hear some noise. What's going on? I'm just in the middle of shooting some children."

Is curious... did the Russians deliberately storm the building of their own volition, then? When did they here this conversation - before, or during the fight?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Vanguard on September 07, 2004, 05:19:08 am: Quote
Originally posted by ionia23

Putin's comments came a few weeks after the U.S. granted asylum to Ilias Akhmadov, the "foreign minister" of the Chechen separatist movement.

Does this mean we're harboring a terrorist sympathizer? Talk about double standards.

Funny that Putin managed to get in a plug against the U.S. in there too. You'd figure he'd have more important issues to address in a speech right now.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 07, 2004, 05:42:59 am: Incidentally....
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40043000/jpg/_40043346_putin_ap203.jpg)
(http://www.kinoweb.de/film99/WorldIsNotEnough/pix/bond99-3247.jpg)

Lookylikey?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Vanguard on September 07, 2004, 05:55:54 am: Is that the bad dude from that really boring Bond movie?

I sure hope they don't have the same agenda!
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: vyper on September 07, 2004, 06:06:27 am: So what you're saying is we need a suave DB7 driving spy to kill Putin and Russia will sort itself out?

Who's going to be the bond girl?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Vanguard on September 07, 2004, 06:24:36 am: Maybe somebody other than Denise Richards this time?
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Stunaep on September 07, 2004, 10:54:08 am: Some interesting stuff I have found from the radio channel/web page of Radio Liberty/Radio Free Europe.

First from the web page:
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2004/09/fa64c366-b6e3-4433-9665-6cae28e08f76.html

Quote
The Russian authorities say it was never their intention to storm the school and end the siege by force. They say the assault by special forces came as a last-minute decision when the hostage takers began shooting at ambulance drivers who had come to collect the bodies of dead hostages on 3 September. At that moment, another group of hostages managed to escape from the school, shooting and explosions broke out, forcing commandos to act. But the source of the explosions still remains unclear. Did the hostage takers unwittingly set off booby traps they had planted throughout the building, as some have suggested, or did Russian commandos disguised as medical personnel initiate hostilities by firing a rocket-propelled grenade or other weapon, as other versions have it?

Military analyst Pavel Felgenhauer disputes the official version of events as presented by the government. He tells RFE/RL that the idea that Russian forces decided to break the siege at the last minute in reaction to the militants' actions is a fabrication meant to cover up the disastrous outcome of what he believes was a planned assault. Just as in the hostage-taking drama at the Dubrovka Theater in Moscow in October 2002, he accuses the authorities of hiding the truth from the Russian public.

Quote

Felgenhauer says the idea that the special forces mounted a last-minute, spontaneous attack is not technically credible, as the offensive was backed up by attack helicopters -- proving advance coordination: "Although there is an air base near Beslan, I know how much time it takes to transmit instructions to pilots. Even if the helicopter was fueled, armed, and waiting, and the pilots were already suited up -- if it had been a spontaneous decision -- they would have had to wait for instructions. An order would have had to be given. They would have had to get aboard, to warm up the engine. They could not have made it to the school in less than half an hour or even more."

And what I just heard: According to Radio Free Europe, a georgian reporter has footage of the russian troops starting the conflict, by blowing a small hole in the wall under the cover of the medical trucks that came to take away the bodies. What makes things even more suspicious, is that the journalist was arrested by the FSB when leaving the country, and charged with traveling without a visa. All facts however, point to that the man did have a visa. When an answer was demanded from the FSB, they said that he was being detained until all problems are cleared out, but refused to say, where he was being detained.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 07, 2004, 11:15:13 am: Supposedly, a witness said the initial explosion was caused by one of the bombs (sticky taped) on the ceiling falling down. (pinch of salt territory here, granted)

I'm positive that russian military helicopters had been circling the scene for the entire time the crisis lasted, however. I remember a BBC reporter mentioning it. So the scramble time is a non-issue.

Personaly, I kind of doubt it was a planned assault because it was such an almighty botch job. Apparently the Russian commandos and the Alpha squad (Spetznaz IIRC) had no idea what the others entry plan was..... hence why there was a 10-hour long shootout.

EDIT;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3627406.stm

Interesting conflict of stories;
Quote

"Marat Khamayev, 15 , also spoke to Kommersant

"Initially we were escorted to the toilet together, then they stopped doing that, and only took the little kids. All the time the explosives were hanging above us - they used adhesive tape to fix it there.

"Before the assault the bandits started arguing with each other about something. I've spent a long time in Chechnya, I know the Chechen language, and they weren't speaking Chechen - they were just speaking a strange language like Arabic, and also Ingush.

"One of the gunmen was reading the Koran constantly, and I counted exactly 23 gunmen altogether. The leader was on the roof the whole time with a sniper's rifle. We realised that, because the others went to him for advice.

"The older pupils were forced to carry desks to barricade the windows. When the assault started one of the bandits shouted 'I'll save you'. Everybody ran towards him and then he blew himself up, killing many people.

"The whole time they never let anybody sleep - if somebody dozed off they would shake him awake again, saying 'no sleeping!' The explosion took place under the roof - there was no external explosion... When the assault came I pulled two girls out with me." "

NB: 'there was no external explosion'.... sounds like an odd turn of phrase for a 15-year old. but it could be due to translation.

Quote

"Diana Gadzhinova, 14-year-old girl hostage, speaking to Izvestiya newspaper

"It took us all by surprise. We were told there would be talks and we were ordered to lie face down [in the gym]... Then there was an explosion in the yard. Then there was shooting... [My sister and I] stayed where we were, lying on the floor. But suddenly there was another explosion above us and part of the ceiling fell in. People were screaming, there was panic.

"I looked up and saw some children lying on the floor covered in blood and not moving. There was a dead lady lying beside me. Torn-off arms and legs were lying everywhere. There were bombs hanging on the rope they'd strung up between the basketball hoops, across the gym. And now these bombs began going off, one after the other, coming closer and closer to us. Anyone who could get up ran screaming to the windows and the back entrance corridor. Alina and I were near a window [both sisters managed to escape unscathed]." "

EDIT2: RE the second one, the editor of Izvestiya was apprently forced out by the Kremin (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3634642.stm)

NB: If this was a deliberate and planned storming, it will go down as the worst in history - 40% of hostages injured, 40% killed.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 07, 2004, 11:45:26 am: Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
Supposedly, a witness said the initial explosion was caused by one of the bombs (sticky taped) on the ceiling falling down. (pinch of salt territory here, granted)

Allow me to throw in something to validate that. The guy who works the night shift at the convenience store up the street from here emigrated from Russia 3 years ago and has a friend who lives in the town where this occured. He said the same thing.

In his variation,

A few kids were shot prior to the two negotiators coming in to pick up bodies. Reportedly, the hostage takers were getting 'bored' with the lack of progress.

While a few bodies were being removed a bomb fell off the wall, detonating. The two negotiators happened to be special forces, pulled their guns, and shot two of the hostage takers immediately. The kids ran, the hostage takers started mowing them down, a few set off their explosives. You can assemble the rest in your heads. I don't think anyone necessarily screwed up, except perhaps the hostage takers thinking that this would somehow gain freedom for Chechnya.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Flipside on September 07, 2004, 11:55:00 am: From here on outwards, now there are two versions, we will never ever know for certain which one is true. It's a classic trick :(

I just don't know, I think America trying to link these more closely to the Middle Eastern groups than they actually are linked, and consistently pointing out that they are all 'Muslims' is a very dangerous path to take as well :(
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Vanguard on September 07, 2004, 03:40:41 pm: Sadly, Russia's military isn't known for its performance in these situations. The "massive firepower" doctrine probably only compounded the crisis.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 07, 2004, 04:23:41 pm: I'm not sure there's any other way of handling it at all. Those kids were dead one way or the other, it was a question of how many.

Mind you, it wasn't the russian army that loaded that place with explosives. They were there to save lives, not take them (save the hostage takers of course). fundamental difference here that people really need to remember.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Vanguard on September 07, 2004, 05:25:16 pm: I just hope the next time whoever is in charge realizes they're going to want a counter-terror force that won't exacerbate the situation.

A mistake is a mistake, no matter how you look at it, regardless of who was responsible.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: ionia23 on September 08, 2004, 02:49:53 am: oh oh, this is RICH :). Straight from CNN

A November win by Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry would put the United States at risk of another "devastating" terrorist attack, Vice President Dick Cheney told supporters Tuesday.

Rictor will have a field day with this one. (I mean that in a complimentary kinda way)
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: aldo_14 on September 08, 2004, 03:22:34 am: Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
I'm not sure there's any other way of handling it at all. Those kids were dead one way or the other, it was a question of how many.

That's probably true, I think. As one of the commentators in the papers pointed out, if the terrorists were refusing to give food or water to the hostages they (the Russians) would have been forced to storm the building sooner rather than later.

Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
oh oh, this is RICH :). Straight from CNN

A November win by Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry would put the United States at risk of another "devastating" terrorist attack, Vice President Dick Cheney told supporters Tuesday.

It's simply breathtaking how low these people will stoop to win a few votes..... playing the 'fear' card to scare people into voting for them.... it's so morally repugnant an election tactic I don't think I really need to comment further.
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: Janos on September 08, 2004, 07:21:53 am: Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14

It's simply breathtaking how low these people will stoop to win a few votes..... playing the 'fear' card to scare people into voting for them.... it's so morally repugnant an election tactic I don't think I really need to comment further.

A: "If you vote for Kerry, the terrorists win!"
B: "That's right mah fella! USA USA Iowa Sheep****istan Proud!"
C: "what"
A and B: "ZOMG TERRIST"
:cool:
Title: Update to news:Russia Ready to Strike Against 'Terror' Worldwide
Post by: Gloriano on September 08, 2004, 07:51:38 am: Quote
However, this does not mean that we will launch nuclear strikes."

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/08/russia.video/index.html

Okey now 2 super powers are hunting terrorists (USA and Russian) when China joins too
Title: Russian Hostage Crisis : Troops Go In
Post by: vyper on September 08, 2004, 11:43:08 am: Ah, more people to **** our rights away...