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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: an0n on September 10, 2004, 09:27:49 am

Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: an0n on September 10, 2004, 09:27:49 am
[list=1]I'll probably think of some more......
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: an0n on September 10, 2004, 09:39:29 am
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: kasperl on September 10, 2004, 09:44:36 am
Well, Gimli is one, and he lead a small group to the big meeting. So I think only those in Moria got wiped, and the rest are still OK.

1. Well, Elrond has one elven ring, Galadriel has another, perhaps her hubbie has the third?
2. Valar?
3. I dunno.
Title: Re: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Goober5000 on September 10, 2004, 10:07:34 am
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
Where the hell did the Valar go? They're big with the meddling and were quite happy to fight Morgoth, but they forbid Gandalf and co from directly fighting any evil. What the hell is up with that?
From what I heard, the Silmarillion goes into detail about this.  Apparently the last time the Valar were directly involved in a battle on Middle-Earth, they destroyed half the planet in the process.  This time around they opted for a more subtle, indirect route - a surgical strike to destroy just the ring.
Title: Re: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: karajorma on September 10, 2004, 10:22:50 am
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
What happened to all the Rings of Power? Presumably Sauron or the Wraiths have/had the 9 Rings of Men. But what about the Elven Rings and the Dwarf Rings? They can't all have been tossed into the fires of Mordor. Hell, they couldn't even manage to throw the One Ring into the fires without going through TWO world wars.


All the dwarven rings were either eaten by dragons or in the posession of Sauron. The elven rings were held by Galadriel, Elrond and somewhat surpringly Gandalf (He was given Ciridan's ring).

AFAIK the elven rings lost their power after the One ring was destroyed. Either way everything that was built with them was diminished after the destruction of the One.

Quote
Originally posted by an0n
Was Saruman planning the War of the Ring even when he was kicking Sauron outta Dol Guldur?


Yep. The sneaky bastard was. He told the Council of the Wise that the One had been destroyed but was already searching for it.


Here's a couple of my own. Was the witch-king of Angmar already a Nazgul when he founded that realm? The Silmarilion seems to say so but I'm not certain.  If so in what book does it cover that?  Unfinished tales?

Also why did Sauron bother with Dol Guldur in the first place? From the sounds of it everyone knew that the Nazgul were lurking in Minas Morgul anyway. Do they really smell that bad that Sauron couldn't have moved in there? :D
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: GoulMeister on September 10, 2004, 01:10:22 pm
heres one, WTF do those stupid rings do anyway, the ring of power only turned people invisible, made them live longer and turn into evil freaks, what about the other ones, and how does sauron die when it gets thrown into the volcano, he was alright before he made it.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: karajorma on September 10, 2004, 01:27:46 pm
Sauron put a lot of himself into the ring. As a result he gained immense power but tied his fate to that of the ring.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: an0n on September 10, 2004, 01:33:29 pm
Uh...no.

He made the ring to control the other ring-bearers, who he assumed would be the Kings of the 3 big races.

Then he got his ass kicked.

The One Ring held the last little chunks of his power and was the only thing keeping his essence from going *poof*.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Mongoose on September 10, 2004, 02:03:04 pm
Not to be a total nag, but a lot of these questions can be answered by reading The Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales.  Actually, I'd recommend them to anyone the least bit into The Lord of the Rings.  The Silmarillion tells the complete story of the creation of Middle-Earth and the First Age, as well as including a history of Numenor and a brief overview of the Third Age.  Unfinished Tales contains some more in-depth sections of stories from all three Ages, including a longer version of the story of Turin and more details about Numenor.  Of course, if you're feeling really adventurous you can get into The Book of Lost Tales 1 and 2.  These are collections of some of Tolkien's earliest writings on the history of Middle-Earth; it's interesting to see how they evolved into the content of The Silmarillion.  Of course, everything besides the actual trilogy and The Hobbit was edited by Tolkien's son Christopher, since Tolkien never really created a fully finished version of The Silmarillion.  Over much of his life, he re-wrote many of the stories related to the history of Middle-Earth, and some reached a more polished version than others.  One story that he never really finished was the tale of Tuor and the fall of Gondolin; a shorter version is in The Silmarillion, and there's the start of a more in-depth tale in Unfinished Tales, I think, but never the fully detailed story.  Christopher has said that that's the one story he most regrets that his father never finished.

As you can tell, I'm a huge Tolkien fan :p.  There are some other books available beyond the ones I mentioned above, including some of the epic poems/songs that Tolkien wrote regarding Middle-Earth (such as the "Lay of Leithian," for instance), as well as a History of Middle-Earth set that includes some earlier versions of elements of the actual Lord of the Rings trilogy.  I haven't really gotten into any of this later work yet, but I hope to in the future.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Flipside on September 10, 2004, 02:04:53 pm
The individual rings increased the bearers influence and ability to influence other people of their race, and allowed people to see 'beyond the normal'. Each ring, iirc, would give the wearer greater perspective when making decisions and more insight into the minds of their people.

The Master Ring alowed you to see things from Sauron's 'point of view' as it were, something that would destroy the mind of most people. The Ring has enough power to influence any race, but is irredeemibly evil and will corrupt it's wearer. In truth, I always felt the Eye of Sauron in Mordor was really just a reflection of the will within in the ring.

I don't know if Sauron could truly have resurected himself in physical form though.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: karajorma on September 10, 2004, 02:07:13 pm
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
Uh...no.

He made the ring to control the other ring-bearers, who he assumed would be the Kings of the 3 big races.

Then he got his ass kicked.

The One Ring held the last little chunks of his power and was the only thing keeping his essence from going *poof*.


None of which disagrees with the simpler way I put it. :p
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: an0n on September 10, 2004, 02:33:10 pm
It does.

Sauron was all "Hulk smash!" and was using the Ring as a weapon to focus his power. Then he died and was like "Argh! ****!" and existed only as a shadow of his former self within the Ring, clinging to life by a thread.

So his fate wasn't tied to the Ring until he got stabbed by Isildur.

The way you put it implies that it was all intentional and that he meant to bind himself to the One Ring, when really all he was doing was empowering a weapon to use it against the peoples of middle earth and happened to stumble onto an added bonus.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Rictor on September 10, 2004, 05:09:48 pm
oooh, obscure Tolkien trivia.

Now, there are still dwarves left in the Iron Hills and in the Lonely Mountain, which I think is their HQ since it was retaken from Smaug. I'm assuming that the 3,7 and 9 rings stilol physically remained intact, though their power vanished. Not so sure about the 9, since supposedly the Wraiths died and something about the whole One Ring-Nine Rings relathionship kinda makes me think they might have been destroyed, but the rest remained I think. Oh and, they were Galadriel, Elrond and Cirdan, who gave his to Gandalf for great justice.

As for the Valar, they kind of decided not to meddle after Morgoth was defeated, but later decided that if he (Morgoth) and his minions were going to make ****, they damn well wouldn't stand by and take it. So they sent the Istari, the Wizards, which was Radagast, Saruman, Gandalf and two others (Pallando and Araman I think) who went to the East (Harad) and they don't really enter the story. These guys were Maia, of the same kind os Sauron, though obviously weaker.

oh and, what Kara said about the One Ring and Sauron.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Rictor on September 10, 2004, 05:18:37 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Mongoose
As you can tell, I'm a huge Tolkien fan :p.  There are some other books available beyond the ones I mentioned above, including some of the epic poems/songs that Tolkien wrote regarding Middle-Earth (such as the "Lay of Leithian," for instance), as well as a History of Middle-Earth set that includes some earlier versions of elements of the actual Lord of the Rings trilogy.  I haven't really gotten into any of this later work yet, but I hope to in the future.


I recommend you check out the ...er, hold on a minute, I've forgotten the name.

...

the Notion Club Papers, which is sort of a work in progress story, though of a completely different genre than LOTR and the Silmarillion, I guess it could be described as science ficition at the time. Its kind of hard to read, and has alot of footnotes and stuff, since it was no where near completion, but its an interesting story and comes off as sort of autobiographical.

Its a very different side of Tolkien, but in other aspects very familiar, since languages and linguistics play a major part in the story, as does the concept of Numenor (or Atlantis, Avalonne, call it what you will), which if you've read alot of Tolkien's work and some of the bits behind the scenes, was sort of Tokien's favourite and most personal bit, I think.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: ionia23 on September 10, 2004, 05:33:26 pm
Warning -

The Simarillion is probably the hardest thing to read ever written.  Plan on getting VERY lost in all the name changes.

Better make big pot of coffee for it, but amazing story.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Mongoose on September 10, 2004, 05:53:50 pm
Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
Warning -

The Simarillion is probably the hardest thing to read ever written.  Plan on getting VERY lost in all the name changes.

Better make big pot of coffee for it, but amazing story.

I'll agree with you on that one :p.  I kept having to refer back to the one map of Beleriand that showed who ruled what.  Yes, it's hard to follow, but it's a fantastic, epic story that describes the early history of Middle-Earth and sets up the Lord of the Rings trilogy.  And yes, coffee is a good idea :p.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Ashrak on September 10, 2004, 06:19:50 pm
gandalf has the 3rd elven ring
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: kode on September 10, 2004, 06:31:15 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ashrak
gandalf has the 3rd elven ring


yeah. and the dwarven rings were destroyed, weren't they?
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: karajorma on September 10, 2004, 07:03:08 pm
Or captured by Sauron. He took the one belonging to Thorin's father or grandfather from him in the dungeons of Dol Guldur.

IIRC it was a 3:4 split as to how many ended up in Sauron's hands vs being destroyed by dragonfire but I can't remember exactly which way the split went.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Rictor on September 10, 2004, 07:10:17 pm
I don't think the rest were destroyed. I think some of them were, and some of them are just lost at the bottom of some gigantic pile of loot.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Sesquipedalian on September 10, 2004, 07:20:20 pm
The Witch King of Angmar was already a Nazgul.

I presume that Sauron went to Dol Guldur first because he didn't want to arouse too much suspicion before he regained his strength.  If he'd returned straight to Barad-dur, he'd effectively have been waving a big flag to all his enemies with the words "Sauron is in the house" written all over it while he was yet too weak to face them.  By going to Dol Guldur first, it took a while before the Wise were sure exactly who they were dealing with there (Sauron, a Nazgul, or what?), which made them more cautious about acting against him.  In essence he was trying to be a bit more subtle so as to buy himself some time.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Flaser on September 10, 2004, 07:25:27 pm
an0n, Sauron's ring was so powerfull because he poured part of himself into it - therefore he was bound from the very beginning. Only doing so allowed the ring to be the most powerfull. AFAIK this is mentioned in the Silmarils.

BTW you all got one thing wrong: Sauron didn't control the nine through the One - he took their ring one by one and wore them himself. It is mentioned in the trilogy I'm not coming up with my own idea.
The wearers of the nine were just as tortured and bloated by their own ring as Smeagol = Gollam was. They acted pretty much the same way Gollam did with Frodo while he was the ring beaer.

About the power of the rings: it's not an RPG game so they aren't like a super-combo or a powerup. The rings are entities to themselves.

The 7,9 and the One all focused on power, so they granted their user power in one form or another. How much and how depends on the wearer, the more powerfull of powerhungry you are, the more the ring will multiply your power. It is said several times in the trilogy that if the one fall into the hands of someone already powerful - like Gandalf, Saruman or Galadriel - the wearer's power would outshadow Sauron's might and could easly knock the fella out of Mordor's throne. But in doing so the ring would twist the wearer and you'd just end up with another black lord.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Grey Wolf on September 10, 2004, 07:27:49 pm
Actually, IIRC, all the Seven could inspire in the Dwarves was greed and a lust for gold.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Ghostavo on September 10, 2004, 07:44:01 pm
And yet the One didn't affect Tom B... if it had... hehehe he would be far superior to anything described in any LoTR's book. Unless the One was too weak for him to bear.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Sesquipedalian on September 10, 2004, 07:45:28 pm
Quote
Originally posted by GoulMeister
heres one, WTF do those stupid rings do anyway, the ring of power only turned people invisible, made them live longer and turn into evil freaks, what about the other ones, and how does sauron die when it gets thrown into the volcano, he was alright before he made it.
The rings aren't tools like a hammer (one purpose: drive nails), but are sources of power, like electricity (an endless number of purposes).  So long as the rings retained their power, the bearer of a ring could accomplish a very great deal of whatever he or she willed.  Galadriel and Elrond wanted to keep their kingdoms pure and full of beauty and life, like the world was in the first age, and so the rings enabled them to do that.  The nine men who eventually became the Nazgul wanted to have power over others, and they were able to do that.

To understand why Sauron died (or rather, all but died) when the ring was destroyed, one needs to understand a something about Tolkien's idea of "inherent power."  Essentially, the idea throughout all Tolkien's work is that every being has a certain amount of power/life-force/whatever-you-want-to-call-it which is given to it by virtue of being made.  Great beings have great power, lesser beings have lesser power.  But for all created beings, this power is finite, and it can be lost as one does things with it.  Good beings use their power to help one another, and so the power is never lost (I give to you, you give to me).  Evil beings use their power to crush, enslave, and destroy others, and so their power is poured out and never recovered (no one is giving anything, only forcing one another).  Sauron put much of his power into the making of the ring, and after his body was destroyed, the power he had put into it was the only substantial source of power left to him.  When it is destroyed, he all but disappears entirely, because all the power that gave him his existence is gone.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Sesquipedalian on September 10, 2004, 07:54:23 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
I don't know if Sauron could truly have resurected himself in physical form though.
No, he couldn't.  Tolkein is pretty consistent about this.  After Huan and Luthien defeat him on Tol Sirion, they tell him that he can either surrender the island to her control, or be killed and never take physical form again.  He surrenders, of course.

After Numenor sinks and Sauron goes down with it, he is never able again to take the fair form he wore then, and when Isildur strikes him and cuts off the ring, even that semblence of physical reality is lost to him.  That is why he appears only as a "lidless eye" in LotR.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Rictor on September 10, 2004, 08:09:54 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ghostavo
And yet the One didn't affect Tom B... if it had... hehehe he would be far superior to anything described in any LoTR's book. Unless the One was too weak for him to bear.


He's not superior, he's different. He's completely different than anyone in the Valar/Maiar/Orcs/Elves/Men/Dwarves world order. Thats why he isn't affected, I think. You can't actually quantify how powerful he is, because power does not have the usual meaning with Tom Bombadil.

...I suspect it was Tolkien placing himself in the story. It meshes so well with what his beliefs were.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Ghostavo on September 10, 2004, 08:17:13 pm
I've got a feeling that Tom is kind of a Gaia persona. I remember something about his destiny being linked with the earth itself or something like that being said in the council.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Grey Wolf on September 10, 2004, 08:29:33 pm
IIRC, I believe the quote was something along the lines of his power being within the earth itself, followed by someone concluding that made him weaker than Sauron, for Sauron manipulated the land within Mordor.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Ghostavo on September 10, 2004, 08:43:51 pm
There are interesting quotes about him...

Quote
Gandalf in RoTK
I am going to have a long talk with Bombadil: such a talk as I have not had in all my time. He is a moss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another.


Quote
Glorfindel in FoTR
And even if we could, soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Flipside on September 10, 2004, 08:53:15 pm
Actually, the Silmarillion is strongly influenced by Norse Mythology, the Weapon Mjolnir was forged by dwarves, who are far from dissimilar to Tolkeins dwarves, and even the History of the 'Immortals' is along similar lines :)
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Mongoose on September 10, 2004, 09:33:11 pm
It's kind of interesting that Tolkien developed "dwarves" as the plural form of dwarf.  He did so to avoid the usual connotations of dwarfs: little jolly men along the line of Snow White's pals.  The Dwarves are obviously anything but :p.  A similar situation exists with the Elves; outside of Tolkien's writings, they're often thought of as little pixies flying around.  Once again, completely wrong :p.

Tolkien, being a scholar of Old English language and literature, drew a lot of inspiration from the Anglo-Saxon culture, which in turn was derived from Scandinavia.  His true intent in creating Middle-Earth and its stories was to create a truly British mythology, something that really did not exist.  Beowulf is often cited as a British story, but it takes place in Denmark, and the title character is from Sweden.  Tolkien wanted a truly English story and cosmos.  I respect Tolkien more than any other author simply because he did more than write stories:  he built up an entire world, complete with a creation story, deities, fantastic creatures and races with great power, and amazing locations.  I'm aware that the literary "elite" really despise The Lord of the Rings; they deride Tolkien's writing style and claim that his work is escapist trash.  They can't stand that his work is no popular, with millions of fans worldwide, second-best-selling in the English language only to the Bible, and ranked in many British polls as the greatest work of English literature ever.  Frankly, they're a bunch of @$$holes :p.  They're so stuck-up in their own sense of "superiority" that they can't even recognize true genius.  I wonder if they've even read the works they criticize.  Only a few pages into The Lord of the Rings, you realize that this book is somehow different, beyond all other books.  Tolkien is a master of words; he can paint elaborate descriptions of setting and make you feel like you're actually in Middle-Earth, without boring you for an instant.  He created characters that are adored the world over, and the success of the recent films only goes to show how much his work is loved.  I'm an avid reader, but I have never and will never find anything as good as Tolkien's work :D.

P.S.  Wow, that post kind of drifted off-topic :p.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Setekh on September 10, 2004, 11:25:52 pm
This thread rocks. ;) Tolkien just had such a huge mind, we could talk about the stuff he invented for centuries. :nod:
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: an0n on September 10, 2004, 11:29:34 pm
Who got 5 rings?
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Mongoose on September 11, 2004, 11:21:17 am
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
Who got 5 rings?

The Jawas.  But we don't hear too much about them :p.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: kode on September 11, 2004, 12:04:24 pm
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
Who got 5 rings?


musashi (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1590300408/qid=1094922239/sr=8-3/ref=pd_cps_3/102-0619607-3828137?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)?
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: mitac on September 11, 2004, 01:18:06 pm
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
Who got 5 rings?


[Offtopic]

(http://www.olympic.org/common/images/common/logo_ioc.gif)

:p

[/Offtopic]
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Flaser on September 11, 2004, 05:27:12 pm
BTW the reason the 3 rings never corrupted or altered their users was that unlike the rest of the rings - which were forged in pursuit of power - tried to capture values own to the elves.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: an0n on September 12, 2004, 12:05:02 am
No, Sauron never got his grubby mitts on them, so he couldn't do the evil-mojo thing to them.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Grug on September 12, 2004, 03:04:19 am
Indeed.

Even after the one ring was destroyed, Sauron isn't completly gone.

Gandalf says it somewhere near the end, that he's nothing more than an evil spirit.

A good source of material is also the Appendice's in the back of the RotK. I'm just starting to go through them again of late. They tell alot of the history of the different people, and also a bit of what happens in the fourth age. Hinting that Gimil was the only dwarf ever to be accepted into the west over the sea, when he went with Legolas. Maybe even his son also... Can't exactly remember.

The movie's were great. But reading the book you get a much more clearer picture of what is happening and how close it actually came to all things ending. And that Frodo and Sam actually did make it to Mount Doom on a very fine chance.

I also came to understand a bit of Elrond's bitterness towards Aragorn. And in the book, I think he left Arwen on bitter terms also.

Indeed, there is quite a fill of information. Anything I ever concieve for mods / fanfiction and what not, I like to take inspiration from Tolkien's works. It is hard to even make a shimmer with one's own works compared to the brilliance of light that his works generate. But he spent a good deal of his life on the books...
So kudo's to him. And here's hoping that some day someone will create something as good.

Though I would go as far to say that the sci-fi world of Dune comes close with its epic scale as well...
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Sesquipedalian on September 12, 2004, 04:07:03 am
Quote
Originally posted by Mongoose
I'm aware that the literary "elite" really despise The Lord of the Rings; they deride Tolkien's writing style and claim that his work is escapist trash.  
Actually, not so much.  The literary elite of his own day did so, but not so anymore.  Ther is plenty of serious secondary literature to be found on Tolkein these days.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Sesquipedalian on September 12, 2004, 04:18:36 am
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
No, Sauron never got his grubby mitts on them, so he couldn't do the evil-mojo thing to them.
Or more accurately, they were made without any of his help, or even his knowledge.  As a result, even when he made and put on his One Ring, he was not quite able to live up to his haughty inscription on the the Ring: he might be able to find them and strive against the will of someone wearing one of the Three, but he could not rule them like the Seven and the Nine.   Of course, "in the darkness bind them" would eventually have overcome that small annoyance...
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: karajorma on September 12, 2004, 04:42:13 am
Quote
Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
Actually, not so much.  The literary elite of his own day did so, but not so anymore.  Ther is plenty of serious secondary literature to be found on Tolkein these days.


There is still a lot of it going on actually. I remember seeing someone from the literati on TV making fun of Lord of the Rings and saying how it was only for engineering students named Nigel. Of course as her rant continued it became obvious that she

1) Hated all sci-fi and fantasy
2) Had never read the book in the first place.

Good thing I wasn't in the audience or I would have slapped her. :)

That said after the you can't get away with that sort of crap anymore. Loads of people have seen the movies and loved them and everyone knows that the book is always better than the movie based on it ;)
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Grug on September 12, 2004, 08:04:45 am
Indeed.
A movie being based on a book is one thing. But a successfull movie based on a book (or a trilogy in this case) is like a seal of greatness.
Tolkien has definitly left his mark on the world...

Can you do the same?


... hehehe, sorry had to say that. :D

- Gruggles
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: karajorma on September 12, 2004, 11:59:58 am
Quote
Originally posted by Grug
Tolkien has definitly left his mark on the world...

Can you do the same?


*Warms up orbital laser platform*

Since you ask..... :D

I agree though. It's a pity there is so much fantasy that just clones his work though. It does have the effect of dragging down his work for the general public.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Mongoose on September 12, 2004, 01:37:41 pm
Grug, Gimli's son didn't travel overseas, at least to any of my knowledge.  However, in the appendices of Return of the King, it does mention that, after Aragorn's death in F.A. 120, Legolas built a ship and sailed into the West, and Gimli supposedly went with him.  Tolkien said that Galadriel was able to obtain this grace for him from the Valar, because of his great love for her.  Also, Elrond and Arwen didn't part on "bitter" terms, per se.  The description may use that word, but the meaning was in the way of extreme sorrow rather than anger or resentment.  Elrond and Arwen would never see each other again; as a mortal, she was destined to leave the circles of Middle-Earth, as opposed to the normal fate of the Elves (after death, they are sent to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, and eventually they are able to walk freely again in Valinor.)  I did forget to mention the appendices in my post, but they should be required reading for anyone who finishes the trilogy; it's very easy, since they're at the end of the third book :p.

I guess I can counter these questions with a question of my own:  was the Glorfindel of Fellowship of the Ring the same as the one who was killed by and killed a Balrog in The Silmarillion?  Tolkien mentions that he has been in the Blessed Realm, which gives him the aura of light and power that he displayed against the Nazgul at the fords.  Since the Elves never truly die, instead eventually coming back in some form, I think that this is the same one, although I am not sure.

Another think I love about Tolkien's works is that there are certain details that are never revealed but which leave the reader guessing.  One is the dark creatures living at the "foundations of the earth" under Moria.  Gandalf says that he "will not darken the light of day" by telling about them.  I'm disappointed that the movies did not include some of this; it would have been extremely creepy if done right.   Another is the door in the Paths of the Dead in front of which Brego, the son of a Rohirrim king, died.  We never learn what that door was or why he wanted to get through it.

One thing I did like about the movies is how they got the scenery and appearance of Middle-Earth right.  They actually brought in acclaimed Tolkien artists Alan Lee and John Howe to help with concept art.  I have a calendar featuring some of John Howe's paintings, and scenes like the Argonath, Rivendell, and Minas Tirith are almost identical to the models used in the movies.  The one time during the movies that I really got choked up was when the Rohirrim arrived at the Pelennor Fields and charged down at the forces of Mordor.  This was one of my favorite scenes from the books, and seeing it portrayed that way on the big screen, with the heroic music playing in the background, sent chills up my spine :).

I can say that I truly disliked only two or three things about the movies.  One was the way that they changed Faramir's character.  He was supposed to be a contrast to Boromir and reject the lure of the Ring, but he ends up trying to capture it.  I almost think the whole scene was done as an excuse to show Osgiliath, which I will admit did look cool.  Another was how Gollum turned Frodo against Sam; they were supposed to have the ultimate friendship and trust, and then Frodo suspects Sam of stealing food?  I don't think so.  The final, and biggest, mistake, in my opinion, was the scene at the actual end of the Third Age, when Sauron falls.  An exploding eyeball just wasn't right :p.  In another Tolkien calendar I have, there's a painting showing this scene as it was written, with an immense shadowy figure wreathed in lightning rising out of the ruin of Barad-dur and stretching its fist out at the opposing armies.  That, to me, would have been the ultimate climaxic scene.  Having said this, though, I think Peter Jackson did an amazing job, with dead-on casting and amazing special effects.  I don't think any other conversion of the books could have been better :D.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: karajorma on September 12, 2004, 01:49:27 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Mongoose
Another was how Gollum turned Frodo against Sam; they were supposed to have the ultimate friendship and trust, and then Frodo suspects Sam of stealing food?  I don't think so.


That was supposed to represent every snarling comment Frodo makes about the ring as they travel across Mordor. Lacking the time to make all the comments and show how Gollum splits Sam from Frodo in Shelob's lair they did it this way.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Mongoose on September 12, 2004, 05:48:37 pm
The thing was, every time Frodo made one of those comments to Sam in the book, he immediately repented of it.  It didn't really have a big impact on their friendship.  The way it was done in the movie seemed somewhat forced and implausible, at least in my opinion.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Grug on September 14, 2004, 08:09:37 am
Indeed.
I'm just reading through the appendices now to refresh my memory.

There doesn't seem to be any mention of Gimli's son, but I could of sworn I heard something about that somewhere...

As for Glorfindel, Tolkien seems to use many repeats of character names, but I'm not sure on this because I havn't read the Silmirilian yet. I've only skimmed through a few parts, and had a few highlighted by a friend of mine.

Not sure from which book, but I recall a battle which had 300 balrogs, Dragons, army of Dwarves, men and elves.
I'm pretty sure that was when Melkor was still around...

Yeah, some of the ways some of the characters were portrayed were a bit off, (I don't recall DenethorII being that crazy :p ) but they have to be forgiven for trying to fit it all into a movie timeframe...

I have to agree completly with the favourite part of the movie being when the Eorlingas charge. They are probably my favourite people.
It would of been better had Pelennor been the same as the book though. I kindof would of at least liked to see the Dunedain army with Aragorn and his banner along with the rest of the people of Gondor from down South, rather than the army of the dead.

But I guess you win some and you lose some. :D

I still wonder what they are going to add into the special extended edition DVD. I'm hoping at least the parley with Saurons Mouth. Maybe a few other things too like a conclusion to Saruman...
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Mongoose on September 14, 2004, 09:31:25 am
I know Christopher Lee is going to be in the extended version, to wrap the Saurman aspect up. One thing I hope they add is Aragorn's healing of Merry/Eowyn/Faramir, as well as Faramir and Eowyn's love story.  It would really add a lot to the books.  Of course, another cool aspect would be Ghan-buri-Ghan and the wood people, but I doubt they would add it in.  I also remember hearing that the scene with Frodo and Sam disguised as Orcs will be added, as well, which is great :).

Edit:  I just Googled for information about the extended edition.  While there are a lot of rumors about which scenes will be included, I did find that the running time will be a whopping 4 hours and 10 minutes :eek2:.    Bathroom breaks, anyone? :p  I'm still planning to pull an all-day/night marathon of all 3 extended editions :D.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: TrashMan on September 14, 2004, 12:46:28 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
oooh, obscure Tolkien trivia.
As for the Valar, they kind of decided not to meddle after Morgoth was defeated, but later decided that if he (Morgoth) and his minions were going to make ****, they damn well wouldn't stand by and take it. So they sent the Istari, the Wizards, which was Radagast, Saruman, Gandalf and two others (Pallando and Araman I think) who went to the East (Harad) and they don't really enter the story. These guys were Maia, of the same kind os Sauron, though obviously weaker.


This is partially true. The Valar did refran from directly involving themselves in the matters of Midddle-Earth. After the Numenor fiasco and the separation of Valinor from this world, they sent the Istari.
Now Saruman and Gandalf aren't necessarily weaker than Sauron. In the Unfinished tales when Manwe sent the Istari to their mission, Olorin(Gandalf) said that he was afraid of confronting Sauron. Indeed, after his serving under Morgoth, he became powerfull indeed, but the Istari were not allowed to use their full power. They took the bodies of men with all the limitations they bring.

Quote
The Simarillion is probably the hardest thing to read ever written. Plan on getting VERY lost in all the name changes.

Better make big pot of coffee for it, but amazing story.

It's like a very interesting history book. That's why it has so many names and dates. I had to read it 3 times to finally connect all the threads. But an amazing read and true proof of Tolkiens dedication and genius.


AS FOR THE MOVIE:

Minas Tirith was broad, a huge city. In the movie it goes all in height and not in width, as it should.
Allso, it has 7 (SEVEN) thick walls, and the doors on each wall are on the opposite side. This means that any attacking army would have to go around  constatntly being shot by arrows from at least 2 walls. In the Book, saurons forces never got past the first door. The broke it, but they haven't even reached the second door.

Allso, the army of the Dead had nothing to do with Anduril(alltough it was still one of the most powerfull blades middle earth ever saw), but rather Aragorn's blood. And they had no power but that of Horror - they couldn't actually kill anyone.

The defenders of Helm's Deep were not that few of pathetic...

Aragorn got Anduril in Rivendell at the begining.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: an0n on September 14, 2004, 01:12:54 pm
And they glossed over the Denethor + Glowy Orb thing.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Grey Wolf on September 14, 2004, 03:06:49 pm
Actually, if I remember correctly, Aragorn was carrying the shards of Narsil with him when he met the hobbits at the inn in Bree.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: karajorma on September 14, 2004, 04:00:18 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Mongoose
One thing I hope they add is Aragorn's healing of Merry/Eowyn/Faramir, as well as Faramir and Eowyn's love story.


That seems likely. At the end of the movie Faramir and Eowyn are shown together as a couple but very little is made of it. The second I saw them together I knew it had been cut for time rather than not being filmed.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Kazan on September 14, 2004, 09:36:24 pm
Quote
Originally posted by kasperl
Well, Gimli is one, and he lead a small group to the big meeting. So I think only those in Moria got wiped, and the rest are still OK.

Quote
Originally posted by kasperl
1. Well, Elrond has one elven ring, Galadriel has another, perhaps her hubbie has the third?


Gandalf has the last one - the red ring he's wearing in the end -- the rest of the time he's just not allowing it to be seen


Quote
Originally posted by kasperl
2. Valar?
'

They're in Valinor (The Undying Lands) -- they send the Istari (wizards -- some of the strongest of the Ainur of the order Maiar - the Valar being Ainur of the order Valar) to 'train mankind' to stand on it's own
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: TrashMan on September 15, 2004, 06:25:41 am
Eru - the One True God. He created Ea(the world that is) and the Valar (think of them as Archangles) and Maiar(lesser angels, FAR weaker than a Valar).

Valinor was an continent on the west where the Valar made their home. It's called Undying Lands becoause of thoise who live there - Valar and Elves. Numenor was between Middle Earth and Valinor.
After the numenorian crazy assault, Valinor was removed from the borders of this world and the island of Numenor sank...
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Kazan on September 15, 2004, 08:49:21 am
trashman - Sauron was the greatest of the Ainur of the order Maiar, Saruman _was_ second until gandalf's ascention to White
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Clave on September 15, 2004, 09:41:55 am
What abaout Radagast?
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Kazan on September 15, 2004, 10:22:06 am
among the Istari he is the 3rd mentioned - and is brown -- we must assume that he is the 3rd strongest

there are 5 istari - only three are mentioned
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: karajorma on September 15, 2004, 10:49:08 am
You do have to wonder what the other two were doing all that time don't you?

And what was Radagast upto during the War of the Ring?
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: TrashMan on September 15, 2004, 02:29:22 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
trashman - Sauron was the greatest of the Ainur of the order Maiar, Saruman _was_ second until gandalf's ascention to White


Correction - Sauron was the strongest Maiar of Aule (angel of earth and forging in a way).
don't forget that every Valar had Maiars serving under him, and
Sauron was not the strongest of all.

The strongest Maiar was Eonwe.

What about Arien and Tilion (the Maiar who drowe the chariots with the leaves of the Two Trees of Valinor - the leave of Telperion was the Moon, and the leaave of Laurelian was the sun).

Not even Morgoth wanted to attack them.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: TrashMan on September 15, 2004, 02:30:50 pm
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
You do have to wonder what the other two were doing all that time don't you?

And what was Radagast upto during the War of the Ring?


Radagast was the Maiar of Yawana, who loved the trees and the animals.
Thus, Radagast humself was a bit taken away with them, especially in his human form...
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Clave on September 15, 2004, 03:43:45 pm
I need more obscure Tolkien facts!!!

Who was the guy who turned into a bear?
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Mongoose on September 15, 2004, 03:45:57 pm
Beorn.  He was almost straight out of old Germanic legends about were-bears.  He shows up in The Hobbit; Gandalf, Bilbo, et al.  stay at his house for a few days after escaping the goblins, and he later arrives at the Battle of Five Armies, where he kicks some serious goblin @$$ :D.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: kode on September 15, 2004, 03:59:27 pm
if you stretch it, his name can in swedish be pronounced the same as the swedish word for bear does.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Clave on September 15, 2004, 04:09:14 pm
:yes: That's the guy!  

Now I kind of remember the description of his house and stuff, always stayed with me as a nice place to live....
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Vaelinx on September 15, 2004, 05:12:37 pm
The books were great.  I was always surprised that not many of my friends picked up on the fact that Gandalf had the third ring.  If you go back and know what to look for, it's fairly clear that he has one of the three in how he deals with the One Ring.  But the fact that he had the fire ring is even more interesting.  Makes me wonder if that is why the Balrog was drawn to him, or if that is why he was so successful in fighting the Balrog.  Either way, too much intentional fire stuff to be chance. ;)

The only thing that I truly dislike about the movies, is the undead army/thing.  It was so anti-climactic to see a bunch of rejects from Disney's Haunted Mansion run around and kill everything in their path instantly... :wtf:  but aside from that, they were really good. :nod:
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: karajorma on September 15, 2004, 05:42:17 pm
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
Radagast was the Maiar of Yawana, who loved the trees and the animals.
Thus, Radagast humself was a bit taken away with them, especially in his human form...


You answered the wrong question. Apart from being Saruman's cats paw what did Radagast do during the war? Surely he didn't sit about doing nothing the entire time.

Likewise I'm still wondering what the other two wizards were up to. They were sent to middle-earth to help fight against Sauron but instead they buggered off into the east and were never seen again.

Now maybe they were involved in a huge struggle to prvent Sauron from getting all the easterlings to join under his flag and be an unstoppable army or maybe they just sat about with a palantir watching Gandalf do all the hard work.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: TrashMan on September 15, 2004, 06:23:03 pm
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma


You answered the wrong question. Apart from being Saruman's cats paw what did Radagast do during the war? Surely he didn't sit about doing nothing the entire time.

Likewise I'm still wondering what the other two wizards were up to. They were sent to middle-earth to help fight against Sauron but instead they buggered off into the east and were never seen again.

Now maybe they were involved in a huge struggle to prvent Sauron from getting all the easterlings to join under his flag and be an unstoppable army or maybe they just sat about with a palantir watching Gandalf do all the hard work.



Actually I did. Becoause of his love for the animals he got sidetracked from the original mission and spent 99% of his time talking to animals.
 He did help both Saruman and Gandalf with passing of news and gethering information, but that's about it..

The two other wizzards went to the East with Saruman upon their arrival. Only Saruman returned. It was never clearly stated what happened to them. Did they fight against Sauron there? Did Saruman dispose of them or perhpas something else? Still haven't read the History of Middle Earth so I don't know if there even is an answer to that one..

B.t.w. - Gandalf sword is Glamdring, the sword of the elven king of Gondolin, the greatest elven city that ever was in  Middle Earth..
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Grug on September 16, 2004, 01:16:18 am
Hehehe, that sparked up again :p

Mongoose- yeah I was planning on doing the LOTR marathon with my friends too...
It would go for bloody ages though, from morning it would go well into the night... Crazy stuff.

I'm thinking of finding the most comfortable bean bag I can before attempting it though. Otherwise my bum will be as dead as a door-mat. =/

Should be greats to see them all consecutivily though... :D
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: karajorma on September 16, 2004, 06:41:35 am
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
The two other wizzards went to the East with Saruman upon their arrival. Only Saruman returned. It was never clearly stated what happened to them. Did they fight against Sauron there? Did Saruman dispose of them or perhpas something else? Still haven't read the History of Middle Earth so I don't know if there even is an answer to that one..


I didn't know they went with Saruman. :) Although back then Saruman was still good wasn't he? It was only when he studied Sauron too much that he started to think of emulating him wasn't it?
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Clave on September 16, 2004, 06:57:02 am
I think when Sauron got hold of a Palantir things started to go wrong.  Any comms system can be abused if you have the wrong people hooked up to it.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: TrashMan on September 16, 2004, 06:59:30 am
Yes. That's why I think the other two Istari remained in the East, since Saruman didn't have no reson to do anything against them back then, but I cannot be sure...

Any other questions?
Aboout the Valar?
the Creation of Ea?
The Maiar?
The Two Trees of Valinor?
The Sun and the Moon?
Gondolin?
Sillmarill?
Earandil?
etc..etc...
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Clave on September 16, 2004, 07:47:13 am
I don't know much about them, but I do remember having a calender with a picture of 'The Fall of Gondolin"  It was pretty cool, there was a huge city wall with fires burning and a massive army attacking, including several Balrogs :eek:
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Ghostavo on September 16, 2004, 08:14:58 am
Seeing that I haven't read the Sillmarillion or The Hobbit, nor will have a chance to read about them soon, can someone fill in about the whole Battle of Five Armies thing and the history behind it? Not from a chronological point of view (the 6th book of LoTR has an index about those sort of things)

EDIT: Thanks Clave ;)
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Clave on September 16, 2004, 08:40:01 am
Was the Battle of the Five Armies in the Hobbit?  (I'm get hazy on this now)
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Mongoose on September 16, 2004, 09:26:36 am
Yes, the Battle of Five Armies occurs at the end of The Hobbit.  Chronologically speaking, this battle happens about sixty years before the start of Lord of the Rings.

Spoiler:
Basically, Thorin and Co.  have been denying requests by Bard of Lake-town and the elven king Thrainduil to share out some of Smaug's treasure.  Tensions escalate, and Thorin prepares to lead the Dwarves into battle, along with his cousin Dain and an army of Dwarves from the Iron Hills, against the Men of Lake-town and the Elves of Mirkwood.  Just as it looks like war is about to break out, Gandalf stops everyone and draws attention to the fact that a large army of gobilins is converging on the Lonely Mountain.  These goblins are seeking revenge for the death of their king at the hands of Gandalf.  Anyway, the three groups join together to fignt against the goblins and are soon reinforced by the giant Eagles of the Misty Mountains.  Eventually, Beorn joins the battle.  The end result is that the goblins are defeated, but at the cost of Thorin's life.  After the battle, Dain takes up leadership of the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain, and Bard re-establishes the city of Dale near the Mountain.

Ghostavo, I'd highly recommend finding/making time to read The Hobbit and The Silmarillion.  You won't regret it :).

P.S.  I've never thought about this before, but since this battle involved Thrainduil and his people, it's likely that Legolas fought in it.
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: TrashMan on September 16, 2004, 04:47:40 pm
The battle of the five armies? that little Skirmish?

Boy, there are battles in Sillmarillion that make the Batle at Pelenor from LOTR look like a kids playing in a sandbox.

Dragons, kazzilions of Orcs (LITERARY!) hundered of Balrogs, Trolls and various beasts of all kinds and some humans on the side of Morgoth.
Elves, Dwarfs and Men, Ents and Great Eagles and Maiaras and elves from Valinor for the Valar.

EDIT: Did I mention that the second war against Morgoth  was so intense, that the whole north of Middle Earth broke apart, and a the whole lanscape was changed - practicly the whole west Beleriand was gone!
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Clave on September 16, 2004, 04:52:52 pm
I want to read it now.  I did try before, but found it so hard to get into....:blah:
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Grug on September 17, 2004, 05:19:26 am
Maybe have someone to read it to you?

Hehe, they should teach this stuff at school. I'm sure that I would of been more into english if Tolkien's works were included. :)
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: karajorma on September 17, 2004, 05:50:48 am
To be fair The Silmarilion is a pretty hard read. You've got no excuse when it comes to The Hobit though. That book was written for kids :)
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Clave on September 17, 2004, 05:54:31 am
Quote
Originally posted by Grug
Maybe have someone to read it to you?
 


........
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: TrashMan on September 17, 2004, 06:04:46 am
Sillmarillion DOES require you to read it two-three times at least in order to connect everything.

The number od names is astounding. Tolkien spent 50 years on it and put a immense ammount of detail in it, so getting a clear picture of it all is not easy..
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Grug on September 17, 2004, 06:14:49 am
lol Clave.

What? There's nothing wrong with it.
I'm not intending to offend it was a mere joke. :p

But I'm man enough to say I can read for myself but don't mind people reading for me! :D
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Clave on September 17, 2004, 07:26:11 am
:ha: Somehow I just want to try it again, not to prove anything you understand, just to get the feel of that battle with all the Balrogs...:p
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: TrashMan on September 17, 2004, 07:40:14 am
Hmm.. I just got all 12 books of the History in Middle Earth in .lit format..

Anyone know how to open that?

b.t.w - the 12 books are(in no particular order):

Lost Road and Other Writings.lit
Lost Tales, Part 1.lit
Lost Tales, Part 2.lit
Peoples of Middle Earth.lit
Morgoth's Ring.lit
Sauron Defeated.lit
Return of the Shadow.lit
The Lays of Beleriand.lit
The Shaping of Middle Earth.lit
Treason of Isengard.lit
War of the Ring.lit
War of the Jewels.lit
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: TrashMan on September 17, 2004, 03:52:22 pm
*anyone know how to view a .lit file?*
Title: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
Post by: Ghostavo on September 17, 2004, 03:53:37 pm
http://www.kyz.uklinux.net/convlit.php

http://tecnodude.tripod.com/