Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bobboau on September 17, 2004, 02:59:04 am
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the whole 60 minutes fake document thingy. why hasn't someone brought that up yet, it's been a few days, would have thought Liberator or someone would have come in with a whole "liberal media bias" thing.
for those of you who don't know, a CBS news show called 60 minutes, ran a story questioning Bushes long ago national gaurd service, a central peice of evedence was a bunch of documents writen by a dead guy saying that he had been preasured into going easy on him and letting him get off of duty and... eating childeren and stuff (you get the idea). well the next day a bunch of document experts were looking at the documents and came to the conclusion that they had actualy been writen in MS word (not widely available 30 years ago :)) and thus there is a huge flak pack about CBS being biased against Bush and stuff. if you want more/better information just go to google and type in "60 minutes" and maybe 'documents' check there news thing.
just felt like sturing things up before I go to sleep, happy fighting:)
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I've never heard of this nor of the documents mentioned.
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Me niether, but as for the documents, could it not be that they were put into MSWord so as to keep them in better order?
Alot of companies are moving from paper copy to electronic version, maybe these 'documents' were just reproduced as part of an upgrade or better reading?
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uhhh, not this.
Look, I'm all for politics, but getting into the finer points of typeface kerning written on a typewriter 30 years ago is a bit too much, even for me.
It doesn't matter if the documents are real. Does anyone doubt that Bush was (is) the spoiled child of a politically influent figure? Normal rules don't apply to him - daddy can take care of everything.
Besides, Bush has made no attempts to counter any of the numerous arguements about him going AWOL, and the military record that was released by the White House was severely cut down and incomplete. I don't know about you guys, but if I was the Prez, and someone accused me of going AWOL, and I had mountains of evidence to prove them wrong, I'de release it, not stand there with a big dumb grin on my face doing nothing.
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Originally posted by Rictor
uhhh, not this.
Look, I'm all for politics, but getting into the finer points of typeface kerning written on a typewriter 30 years ago is a bit too much, even for me.
It doesn't matter if the documents are real. Does anyone doubt that Bush was (is) the spoiled child of a politically influent figure? Normal rules don't apply to him - daddy can take care of everything.
Besides, Bush has made no attempts to counter any of the numerous arguements about him going AWOL, and the military record that was released by the White House was severely cut down and incomplete. I don't know about you guys, but if I was the Prez, and someone accused me of going AWOL, and I had mountains of evidence to prove them wrong, I'de release it, not stand there with a big dumb grin on my face doing nothing.
but...but....but... he went to the Dentist! He must have been in the whatever the hell he was in!
Of course, even if he did serve, he was in the bloody Texas Militia Air Force... what would he have done? Bombed clear areas of encroaching cactus? Maybe he's developed a morbid fear of sand dunes, and that's why he's invaded 2 desrt countries?
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LOL
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Gettin' into the National Guard was a well known way of avoiding a tour in Vietnam.
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Originally posted by Rictor
Does anyone doubt that Bush was (is) the spoiled child of a politically influent figure?
not me
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and those 'experts' that said they were made in MS Word got served when a manufacturer of typewriters came forward reminding them "we had typewriters capapble of doing that in the 1940s" in reference to the thing that made them say it must have been written in MSWord (superscript)
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plus, the day after CBS released this, the White House released copies of the documents in question.
No questions, no suspicions, just released 'em. Which leads me to believe that they believe (that I believe that they believe) that its legit.
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The big question is: so what? There really isn't much more that can be piled before the current administration to make it look any worse.
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I read about this somewhere. Its not news to me that CBS is biased against Bush. Ever since the 2000 election I have held the opinion that all major media organizations except for FOX (7 out of 8 organizations) are biased against Bush. These days there doenst seem to be one reliable news source. Its amazing how differenct stories can be twisted to sound totally different than they actually are.
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Look, I know you're not, but can you just pretend you're being sarcastic so we can avoid the long, drawn bout of ridicule that will ensue as a result of that comment?
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Originally posted by MatthewPapa
I read about this somewhere. Its not news to me that CBS is biased against Bush. Ever since the 2000 election I have held the opinion that all major media organizations except for FOX (7 out of 8 organizations) are biased against Bush. These days there doenst seem to be one reliable news source. Its amazing how differenct stories can be twisted to sound totally different than they actually are.
Seriously if the guy who is ordering the troops into Iraq and going on about bravery etc is actually a coward who joined the national guard deliberately so as to not be sent to Vietnam and then on top of that still went AWOL for 17 months do you not think that is newsworthy?
I haven't watched much American news recently so I can't tell if you're correct but is it really a case of bias or are they just truthfully reporting his complete f**kups?
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Originally posted by MatthewPapa
These days there doenst seem to be one reliable news source.
Al-Jazzera.
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They're getting an English language TV station I believe before the end of the year, which will be available in the US. Though with only basic (that is, until I pay someone some money), not much use to me...
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As soon as I saw the title, I knew what this thread was about. I don't know what to say that has already been said though, seems CBS is in very hot water.
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Originally posted by MatthewPapa
I read about this somewhere. Its not news to me that CBS is biased against Bush. Ever since the 2000 election I have held the opinion that all major media organizations except for FOX (7 out of 8 organizations) are biased against Bush. These days there doenst seem to be one reliable news source. Its amazing how differenct stories can be twisted to sound totally different than they actually are.
Maybe that's because they report things that the Bush administration doesn't want you to hear about. Fox is very pro-Bush despite their claims of being "fair and balanced" (which it is most certainly not).
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I generally don't expect news to be entirely unbiased, but FOX is just masturbation fodder for the right. Their war coverage is like the 2 Minutes' Hate out of 1984.
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if you think that fox is masturbation fodder turn on the freaking radio already, listen to Hannity when he isn't on the same stage as a liberal, or try on Michael "I'm in support of limeted nuclear strikes" Savage, in this glare you will learn that the acursed fox is actualy quite tame.
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Lol.
The right wing has the radio, the left wing has the tv.
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And you wonder why the world leans left?
BTW, Hannity has become too shrill for me most of the time and Savage is just being honest when no one else will, when he mentions "limited nuclear strikes" he means "block buster" class strikes in the less than one KT range, it's clean and very dramatic. They(the Islamo-Fascists) will fall in line only if we use undeniable force. They are the only people on Earth who count teenagers in a Discotek fair targets and send their own children out to fight, while the men stay and hide behind the women.
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Politics are stupid, idiotic, and distasteful. And unfortunately, very neccesary.
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Originally posted by karajorma
Seriously if the guy who is ordering the troops into Iraq and going on about bravery etc is actually a coward who joined the national guard deliberately so as to not be sent to Vietnam...
i'm not a bush supporter (i'm not an anyone supporter), but with all seriousness, who gives a ****? how does joining the Guard make him a coward? so he didn't want to fight in Vietnam - big deal - most didn't. and for quite good reason. we had no business being there, as Kerry was so very eager to point out when he got back.
i personally don't care what they did 30 something years ago. i know people who did serve and most of them don't really care either. for some reason, before we decide not to vote this year, we'd just like to hear some policy for once. but that's just me. i'm just silly.
and there's something quite wrong with the fact that the liberals, who were vehemently and violently against vietnam and spit on soldiers and cursed them and called them baby-killers, are now touting service as some kind of prerequisite for honor. it would be laughable if it wasn't so ****ing sad.
Originally posted by Rictor
Does anyone doubt that Bush was (is) the spoiled child of a politically influent figure? Normal rules don't apply to him - daddy can take care of everything.
normal rules don't apply to any of the candidates. if it's not daddy, it's the corporations backing them or the personal fortures or the family fortunes. they're all so out of touch, it's not even funny anymore.
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Personally, I think the qualifications for president should be the following:
Have served in the military long enough to rise at least 2 ranks, not pay grades. Example: Ensign(lowest naval officer rank) to Lieutenant(guarantees character)
Have a personal wealth of no less than $100,000 and no more than $1,000,000.(guarantees ability to understand money without having been corrupted by it)
with the following restrictions:
All public office holders(including federal, state and local judges) shall be limited to no more than 4 total terms in office for the length of their lives.
All term lengths will be of reasonable length, 6-8 year maximum.
The penalty for accepting bribes and other forms of corruption shall be immediate imprisonment at labor for not less than 10 years with no chance of parole or early release.
The minimum age for public service will be 30 years, the maximum 65 years.
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you've got sort of a narrow window there, especaly in the income range, I'd say ignore how much they make, and raise the sudgested term limits to about 150%. I don't think personal weath should make that big of a diference in getting elected, neither should be the personal wealth of people who 'suport' you, rather it should be the issues, the changes that a candidate is going to instate, I think a good way to do this would be to just outright ban private campaneing, it's just too coruptable, each candidate will be given the same funding to do with what they will, only candidates that can prove that they have suport of 5% of the population would be elageable, this means that there could be 20 potental candidates and all would be given equal time. another radical change I'd make is in the voteing system, the electoral colage is bull, it's a remnent of the days when we didn't actualy have our vote count directly, and if that's got you worried I'd also change they very fundemental method of voteing, no longer will it be 'one person one vote' I's instate either a equal or graduated multi-vote system were you cast multable votes for multable candidates (each person gets the same number obviusly) and each vote would eaither be worth the same or you list the top, lets say five, in the order you'd want them. what I want is more options.
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Originally posted by PeachE
i'm not a bush supporter (i'm not an anyone supporter), but with all seriousness, who gives a ****? how does joining the Guard make him a coward?
Cart before horse. He isn't a coward because he joined the national guard. He is a coward and that's why he joined the national guard.
The reason I give a **** is what if the soldiers who are about to be sent to Iraq all decided to take 17 months off? Surely if the president can do it and get away with it they should be able to do so to?
Lastly it speaks about character to me. A man who swears an oath to do a certain amount of military service and then turns his back and runs away when the going gets tough is not a man who is tough enough to do a high stress job like president.
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Bob, you're forgetting the actual purpose of the Electoral College.
Observe this map of the 2000 election counted out by county(You'll like this):
(http://freeconservatives.com/rhino/mandate.gif)
The election was so close because the population centers(NY, the left coast, ect) went with Gore(blue), while the overwhelming majority of the rest of the country went with Bush(red).
The purpose of the electoral college is to equallize the value of each state and force the candidates to campaign there. Otherwise, they'd spend 99% of their time in NY, LA, and other metro areas and ignore most of the nation.
Also, I would be in favor of some kind of arrangment so that political candidates recieved equal, but limited, amounts of free air time and space in print and that they not be allowed to make paid ads. That way the money is removed without impinging on the purpose.
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Originally posted by Liberator
The purpose of the electoral college is to equallize the value of each state and force the candidates to campaign there. Otherwise, they'd spend 99% of their time in NY, LA, and other metro areas and ignore most of the nation.
yeah, becase they don't do that already :wtf: /:rolleyes:
I hate maps like that, they are misleading, most of the red space has a population dencity 1/100th of the blue, all it shows is that republicans' base is in the rural areas.
wow, you can see the appalachian mountans on that thing!
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Originally posted by Bobboau
I hate maps like that, they are misleading
Which is why republicans love them. They seem to show that most of America likes the republicans when the truth is closer to a 50:50 split.
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Originally posted by Liberator
Have served in the military long enough to rise at least 2 ranks, not pay grades. Example: Ensign(lowest naval officer rank) to Lieutenant(guarantees character)
Bollocks. Some of the greatest leaders in history never went near the army. All the army guarentees is an ability to follow orders and kill people.
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Originally posted by karajorma
Cart before horse. He isn't a coward because he joined the national guard. He is a coward and that's why he joined the national guard.
i agree that the 17 months of AWOL is an issue that needs to be paid attention to.
but if you're saying that it isn't joining that national guard that makes him a coward, why is he a coward? AWOL just makes him completely irresponsible. because he didn't want to go to Vietnam? again, so what. it was a terrible mistake of a war. and if you didn't believe in it, the national guard was a good way to get out of it without dodging the draft. joining the National Guard simply says that you're willing to serve your country. you just don't happen to want to die for a cause you don't believe in. imo, that's not cowardice.
for example, if i could have, i would have joined up for the war in Afghanistan. gladly. willing to serve. but if i had been around for Vietnam and been drafted, there's no ****ing way i would have gone.
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Uhm, he asked to go to Vietnam when serving, but was denied due to his lack of experiance.
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Who won in Alasca BTW? :nervous:
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Bush. Gore got Hawaii.
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Originally posted by Liberator
Have served in the military long enough to rise at least 2 ranks, not pay grades. Example: Ensign(lowest naval officer rank) to Lieutenant(guarantees character)
so a 20 year veteran drill seargeant would be out of the question? and you understand that with this rule out JFK, Bush 41, FDR, Bill Clinton, Woodrow Wilson and Thomas Jefferson? i agree with aldo here. military service does not make you a great leader, rising two ranks is no guarantee of character (Nixon made it to Lt Commander), and lack of service is no proof that someone has neither character or leadrship ability.
Have a personal wealth of no less than $100,000 and no more than $1,000,000.(guarantees ability to understand money without having been corrupted by it)
bah, as high as the expenses are of running a campaign, noone with less than a 100,000 could probably afford to run anyway. and if they were able to pull together enough money for a full-on campaign, i think that would say something for their understanding of money.
All public office holders(including federal, state and local judges) shall be limited to no more than 4 total terms in office for the length of their lives... All term lengths will be of reasonable length, 6-8 year maximum.
don't agree with judges. there's a good reason that's lifetime. so they can be just without having to worry about their jobs.
but definitely agree otherwise. the congressmen who have been sitting up there for 30 years need to go.
The penalty for accepting bribes and other forms of corruption shall be immediate imprisonment at labor for not less than 10 years with no chance of parole or early release.
tru.
and i would go one step farther and eliminate the PAC loophole in federal campaign laws. and on a related note, i would also take a way corporate legal status as "persons".
The minimum age for public service will be 30 years, the maximum 65 years.
meh, the only cases where these age restrictions would be necessary would sort themselves out during a campaign.
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NB: I think you'd actually want to encourage the super-rich to run for President... the way the current system works, candidates (and the incumbent) are basically indebted to campaign financiers - and thus repay them if they take office. The more someone is able to self-finance, the more free they can be from this.
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Yeah, I heard about the forged documents thing, and when that guy who made them came onto the show to say "Yes, I know they are fake!" even though expert after expert TOLD HIM they are fake, that show got the lowest ratings possible.
They are fake, no doubt about it, and since Bush's unit was never federalized, he couldnt have gone AWOL. Also, Bush wasnt in the National Guard to be a cook or a janitor. He was in it to be a FIGHTER PILOT. He was pretty far up there in his class in terms of learning how to fly (Near top 10% IIRC). Kerry hocks a grenade into a rice patty field and hurts himself. What a hero.
"Awwww, gawd daaaamn mah lehg!"
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Woo.... the Texas militia air force. Bush was grounded, IIRC, for failure to attned a regulation medical. (incidentally, this was in '72, the same year the military introduced drugs & alcohol checks).
Also, apparently missing enough drills meant that (somewhat perversely) the soldier / pilot would be called up to serve in the military proper.
As the USAF had complete air dominance over 'nam, and that Bush was trainded to fly and F-102 interceptor, this meant he wasn't 'needed' and meant he would basically get a get out of jail free card.
EDIT; or maybe not even qualified to do that http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040910_551.html
Or at least not bothering his arse to turn up
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4481112,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4475804,00.html
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Originally posted by karajorma
Lastly it speaks about character to me.
What about Kerry's character? Shouldn't he have been fighting the Vietnam war instead of getting himself on video? Then again, I know jack about politics...
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Originally posted by Ulala
What about Kerry's character? Shouldn't he have been fighting the Vietnam war instead of getting himself on video? Then again, I know jack about politics...
Wasn't that after being discharged?
EDIT: found an interesting snippet, RE: Vietnam war atrocities. Coalin Powell (yes, that one) was tasked with investigating the My Lai massacre, issuing a report which was apparently a whitewashing of the event. Make of that what you will.
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Originally posted by PeachE
but if you're saying that it isn't joining that national guard that makes him a coward, why is he a coward?
Cause he spouts off all the time about how people have a duty to serve their country in times of war but wasn't willing to do so himself and instead deliberately took a job that he knew would keep him from having to go to war.
Did you see Bush offering his soliders the chance to morally object against going to war in Iraq? If you think Bush has the right to avoid the draft because vietnam wasn't a war worth fighting don't you think that the average US marine should be able to make the same choice?
Originally posted by Ulala
What about Kerry's character?
Did I ever say that Kerry wasn't a complete w**ker? The topic was about Bush. He's a ******. Had I been talking about Kerry I'd have called him a ****** too.
The thing is that most of the people voting for Kerry know he's a ******. They're voting for him cause they think he's less likely to f**k up the country than Bush.
Bush supporters on the other hand are deluded into thinking he's the 1.5th coming. They don't seem able to see that he's an even bigger w**ker than Kerry. They constantly attack Kerry's character and claim he's lied and cheated but they don't apply the same standards to their own leader.
That's wrong. You have to hold up Bush to the same standards you hold Kerry up to. And that's why stuff like this that shows Bush's character is important.
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The National Guard thing is moot to me. I would sooner eat horse manure than take up arms for anyone's cause, so I don't blame anyone for evading combat service. I also fail to understand why these issues of military service are all that relevant to the current political campaign.
BTW, Hannity has become too shrill for me most of the time and Savage is just being honest when no one else will, when he mentions "limited nuclear strikes" he means "block buster" class strikes in the less than one KT range, it's clean and very dramatic. They(the Islamo-Fascists) will fall in line only if we use undeniable force. They are the only people on Earth who count teenagers in a Discotek fair targets and send their own children out to fight, while the men stay and hide behind the women.
Nobody's going to "fall in line." People have been trying to make each other "fall in line" since the dawn of civilization, and the fact than anyone advocates the use of any nuclear weapons sends shivers up my spine. Mike Savage is the most abominable fountain of venomous, hateful insanity I have ever heard in the mainstream media. It takes about three words out of him to make my blood boil.
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I should point out that Russia is also responding to Bush's resurgent love of nukes with their own tests and weapons reserached. Bush is developing mini-nukes, designed as bunker busters, so Russia is doing the same.
Yay, we've gotten back on the arms race horse. And the militarization of space is even worse.
Originally posted by aldo_14
EDIT: found an interesting snippet, RE: Vietnam war atrocities. Coalin Powell (yes, that one) was tasked with investigating the My Lai massacre, issuing a report which was apparently a whitewashing of the event. Make of that what you will.
Yup, thats the "moderate" in Washington right now.
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I think the main issue over Bush's non-service in 'Nam is that he has led the US into a war which may become the modern day equivalent... and that, if he has not experienced that, is he really capable of understanding and managing the decisions before, during and after it?
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The only reason Vietnam went on as long as it did was because of the bloody, gutless politicans getting in the way of the natural progression of things. It's why MacArthur quit after all.
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I presume you're advocating bombing the entire country back to the stone age, then? I mean, sure, everyone is dead - but hey, better dead than red!
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Yeah. If the politicians hadn't gotten in the way you could have just sprayed more Agent Orange and left the commies who survived the carpet napalming to have mutated babies right? :rolleyes:
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Not to mention the non-commies.....
They are fake, no doubt about it,
So they're fake in your fantasy world, big deal.
The purpose of the electoral college is to equallize the value of each state
Please check your facts again. California has over 50 electoral votes while Alaska has 3. Hawaii has 4 electoral votes while Texas has over 25. Does that equalize the value? Hardly.
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back on topic, for all of you who said there were no false documents and that anyone who disagreed with you was a right wing asshat, there about to basicly admit it them selves (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6052080/)
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6039473/
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I guess investigative journalism isn't what it used to be...
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now just to clarify, the son of a senitor _is_ going to get preferental treatment, I'm not going to defend Bush.
but this situation speaks only to the... 'enthusiasm' by wich some people in the media are to bring it up, in sync with a Kerry counter to the sift boat-thing I might add.
but honestly this is all (swift boat thing included) just a bunch political charicter assassination bull****, and totaly irrelivent, what someone did 30 years ago when they were 20 years old has little to do with what there going to do in the next four.
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Originally posted by Bobboau
now just to clarify, the son of a senitor _is_ going to get preferental treatment, I'm not going to defend Bush.
but this situation speaks only to the... 'enthusiasm' by wich some people in the media are to bring it up, in sync with a Kerry counter to the sift boat-thing I might add.
but honestly this is all (swift boat thing included) just a bunch political charicter assassination bull****, and totaly irrelivent, what someone did 30 years ago when they were 20 years old has little to do with what there going to do in the next four.
Well, arguably it is, as a judge of someones decision making processes. Regardless of validity, it's a tactic both sides are enthusiastic about using.
What is more important, I think, is that this Bush-militia furore has been pretty effectively manipulated to divert attention from more important issues. Whilst I'd say the character of a candidate is important, it's far less important than, say, foreign relations or the economy.