Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Andreas on September 20, 2004, 02:23:54 pm
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Well, I have one question, which I don't remember being adressed before, is that when was the GTB Athena first introduced to service in GTA?
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Probably around the same time as the Apollo. Its one of the oldest ships around in terms of the timeline.
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the Athena was? I thought it came out around the Taranis. (or maybe the Galatea just got a complement, I dunno)
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It was certainly after the Apollo - maybe around the time the Hercules was first introduced.
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I thought it was new and it's first deployment was the Taranis Op. It's more a heavy fighter though given it's speed, manuverability, and complete lack of ability to actually carry bombs other than the Stilleto.
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The Athena is pretty much useless in my opinnion. Sucky bomber, and if you want a heavy fighter, go for the Herc or the Apollo (some people stop using it after sheilds are availible. Dunno why. Guess they assume the Apollo is an antique now).
The Apollo is my favorite, actually. The middleground between the Valkarie and the Herc. :)
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Athena is an old craft AFAIK - just because we only got to play with it around the Taranis op doesn;t mean it was brand new at the time.
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According to the Command brieifng, the Athena became available right before the Taranis mission. It says something it is our newest bomber.
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The Athena seems to have a specific mission: anti turret and subsystem work. From what I can tell it's about as close as FS comes to a 'Wild Weasel' configuration. The position of the primaries concentrates the main armanent at one small area - great for taking down turrets and subsystems quickly. Though the Avenger is about the best offensive cannon the ship can mount, that same concentrated shot grouping can really pay dividends during a dogfight. It also has a deep afterburner reserve, allowing it to keep smaller craft in the targeting reticule. For the trade-off of two guns it has almost the same protection and manouverability as the Hercules in a faster, lower profile hull.
Anyhow, here's what info is availiable in game.
Table Info:
Name: GTB Athena
Species: Terran
Type: Light Bomber
Maneuverability: Average
Armor: Medium
Manufacturer: Dynamic Metamer
Description: Excellent for hit-and-run bombing. Good speed for its size, with a high capacity afterburner reserve.
Tech Description:
The smallest bomber in the fleet, the Athena has oftentimes been mistaken for a fighter. However, one should not be fooled by its small size. The Athena can carry light bombs, and most missiles. It also has the ability to dogfight well. Its strong shielding and hull make it the favored "Lightning Bomber" of the GTA.
(Corrected stats)
Length: 26 m
Gun Mounts: 2 banks, 2 ports each
Missile Banks: 2 banks, 9 ports each
FS Campaign, mission 10 Briefing exerpt:
* GTD Galatea
* Ikeya System
* 1/31/35
The Taranis
Initial attacks have gone off without a hitch, and the Taranis is on her last leg. Delta and Epsilon wings have destroyed most of the Taranis' fighter escort. It is time to finish the job.
To this end, Terran Command has sent a full wing of Athena bombers, equipped with the newly developed Stiletto bomb.
New Technology: Athena Bomber
The Athena is our most maneuverable bomber. It carries a massive payload, yet, in dogfights, is nearly as effective as a fighter.
Doesn't really mention anything about the age of the Athena, but this exerpt from the FS reference bible implies it's fairly old:
Dubbed the "lightning bomber" by some of its pilots, this little wonder was the mainstay of the GTA fleet before it started developing its bigger warheads. While it doesn't have nearly as much capacity for bombs or the hull strength of its younger brothers, it is still in use today for quick hit and run strikes. Its relatively small frame is carried well by its fast engines, allowing it to achieve speeds even greater than the Terran
Heavy Assault Fighter. While this bomber it pretty useless against the bigger ships, it definitely hasn't outlived its usefulness against transports and freighters. Its massive afterburner fuel reserve is its biggest advantage, its lack of good primary and anti-fighter secondary weapons, its biggest weakness. This bomber is also suitable for disabling a craft.
Best that can be said is it probably predates the Stiletto, and pretty much any other GTA Bomber. Dunno about the Apollo or the Valkyrie, but pretty good bet it's older than the Hercules or Medusa.
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What I liked most about it was that it could carry 16 Pheonix 5 missiles. Before you get ahold of the Hercules, that is the best you can get.
And I didn't like the Apollo that much. I preferred the Valkyrie over it.
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Perhaps the Athena should have something like FSPort's Barracuda heavy rocket? Small but noticible damage to capships, not manuverable enough for effective use against fighters, relatively small shockwave, good range, can be shot down but not easily.
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WEll if the ship is old, why is it described under NEW TECHNOLOGY: Athena bomber??
I personally love the ship and hated the fact they threw it out of FS2.
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Indeed, it was a great ship... Still my favorite... The avenger is the best weapon it can hold, but its secondary firepower far surpasses it...
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Originally posted by TrashMan
WEll if the ship is old, why is it described under NEW TECHNOLOGY: Athena bomber??
I personally love the ship and hated the fact they threw it out of FS2.
Taken to mean NEW TECHNOLOGY available.
I suspected that even the Hercules and Medusa had been around the block a bit, just that they were final prototype stages rushed to deployment with the new crisis.
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In other words,
'"we've finally decided we can trust not to crash into your wingmen every mission, so we've allowed you flight priveleges for the GTB Athena.
Try to bring it back in one piece this time, alpha 1"
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
Perhaps the Athena should have something like FSPort's Barracuda heavy rocket? Small but noticible damage to capships, not manuverable enough for effective use against fighters, relatively small shockwave, good range, can be shot down but not easily.
I created something like this for my WIP campaign. I called the weapon Paveway, but it was inferior to the Barracuda in most respects.
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Originally posted by IceFire
Taken to mean NEW TECHNOLOGY available.
I suspected that even the Hercules and Medusa had been around the block a bit, just that they were final prototype stages rushed to deployment with the new crisis.
I don't recall Command Briefings in FS1 ever talking about "OpEval Periods"...yet FS2 had an entire mission dedicated to TESTING the Pegasus...an interesting twist, but significant in that it seems like FS1 the GTA was like "SHIVANS -- OH **** -- GET THE STUFF OUT WHO CARES IF IT WORKS!!!" what makes absolutely no sense is...well...get a load of these two FS2 fighter specs:
GTB MEDUSA:
$Allowed PBanks: ( "Subach HL-7" "Prometheus S" "Prometheus R" "Lamprey" "Circe" "Maxim") <---- Aren't the Subach, Maxim, Prom R, Lamprey and Circe NEXT-GEN GUNS?!
EVEN WORSE - GTF Hercules:
$Allowed PBanks: ( "Subach HL-7" "Akheton SDG" "Morning Star" "Prometheus S" "Prometheus R" "UD-8 Kayser" "Lamprey" "Circe" "Maxim") <--- WHAT THE HOLY HELL?
UD-8 KAYSER?! ON THE HERC 1?! The fact the Herc 1 can mount the *Kayser* means that there's no excuse for the Athena, Apollo, and Valkyrie NOT being in FS2.
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the Athena was tight. it has large secondary capacity, it's very manueverable, fairly fast, and the lasers shoot in a cluster, which i like... i dunno why, it's just always been easier for me to take down a fighter with the athena's laser configuration than with, say, the ulysses or valkyrie.
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apollo was the best ship in FS1, fastest craft with 2 secondary banks.
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but very, very small secondary banks :)
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Originally posted by FireCrack
apollo was the best ship in FS1, fastest craft with 2 secondary banks.
The Valkyrie can run rings around it. Apollo can't carry the Banshee either.
I am not sure what the excuse is for the Valkyrie being retired so long before the Perseus came out. The Apollo was old before FS1 even starts and is totally obsolete by the time FS2 starts.
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The Athena was a good ship; it was a shame you only got to fly one in one mission. What I don't personally understand is why the Perseus is considered an "upgrade" to the Valkyrie; compared to the older ship, it absolutely sucks. Normal speed is 5 m/s less, afterburner top speed is a whopping 15 m/s less, the afterburner recharge is slower, and the afterburner duration is much, much less. That's what I loved about the Valkyrie; you could hold that afterburner all day and travel huge distances with it in a short amount of time. With your engines boosted to full, it was truly amazing. The Perseus doesn't even come close to any of these attributes; I never really enjoy flying with it.
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The Perseus had more armor (a lot more shields). But it has one HUGE advantage over the Valkyrie: It has a much better secondary weapons loadout.
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In FS1, I used to fly the Valkyrie every chance I got. Now I use the Apollo because of its higher hull strength and the fact that it can carry more secondaries, in 2 types. When the Athena becomse available, I fly that mostly, until the Herc comes out. I then use the Herc for almost every situation. Valk for missions with long-range bomber interception, and bombers for... well, bombing missions. Same is true for Silent Threat, though I chose the Zeus for a couple because of their greater loadout.
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Originally posted by Kosh
The Perseus had more armor (a lot more shields). But it has one HUGE advantage over the Valkyrie: It has a much better secondary weapons loadout.
Bah. Who uses secondaries? Real men use primaries :p. I also don't care as much about the shields; if you can outrun every other ship, you don't have to worry as much about being hit. I was just upset that FS2's interceptor was, performance-wise, inferior to its predecessor of thirty years.
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The Athena is my all time favourite...
If i was GTVA i would have loaded it with Trebs and used it to kiss goodbye to anything below corvette class...
Used as an early ingame version of the Ares it owns anything with a skilled pilot...
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Ah, bench racing lives! :lol:
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Originally posted by Zarax
The Athena is my all time favourite...
If i was GTVA i would have loaded it with Trebs and used it to kiss goodbye to anything below corvette class...
Used as an early ingame version of the Ares it owns anything with a skilled pilot...
The Herc 2 has a better loadout capacity and probably better armor (FS1 GTA fighters are mostly pretty fragile, except for the Herc), so why bother?
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Yeah, but the Athena is way faster...
And are you sure about payload?
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I'm not sure about a whole lot of things right now (brain = on vacation).
It does have better afterburner capacity, but the cruising speed and manueverability are the same. The Herc 2 can carry 24 Trebuchets. How about the Athena? Don't say it can carry XX Pheonix 5's, because that is comparing an apple and an orange.
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Herc: $SBank Capacity: ( 60, 60 )
Athena: $SBank Capacity: ( 80, 80 )
Well, it seems the Athena banks are bigger, at least table wise...
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I didn't think of that. Then again it WAS a bomber and not a heavy assault type of thing.
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To me it's more akin to a F15E than a true bomber...
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Well, it was designed before the GTA started developing REAL anti-capitalship guns. I think the point of it's primary configuration was so that it could to down turrets of bigger capital ships. This way it makes it much easier for even a Fenris to nail it.
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Yeah, nonetheless it could accomplish a great variety of tasks...
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Fighting fighters, which is very important. You cannot avoid combating fighters.
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Jack of all trades, master of none
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The Phantom F4 of it's era i daresay
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Why you guys comparing it to the herc 2? The athena was retired before the herc 2 was deployed, they are different eras- although, they serve the same purpose, heavy assault, and the herc 2 is obviously better at it.
I was just playing the port, took an Athena and loaded it with avenger, flail and 40 interceptors. Hit a fighter and get it in flail lock, then fire a pair of interceptors, you get a fast easy kill. I would take this ship a lot except the Herc completely obsoletes it when it comes out 'cause it can do the same thing, only has 10 fewer misisles (using intercepts). So you really only end up with flying the athena in like 2 missions. Athena is a bit faster though, it's afterburner speed is equal to the Valk's (165).
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Meh.
We all love tha Athena.
It was beloved in FS1, and was missed in FS2, only because V never had anything quite the same in the sequal.
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The Zeus, while slower, was a fairly good match IMO. But the Zeus' shields just can't take the punishment of FS2-era weaponry. Then again...could the Athena's shields either?
And isn't there an Athena reskin floating around out there somewhere...GTB Eris...?
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The Athena DH you mean.. Yeah, I have it on my HD.. A mean looking ship..
Say, anyone know how to edit the mission loadout(s) of the main FS2 campaign and add the Athena DH to the selection list???
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Why? It's a pretty non-canon change and if you're going to re-write history you should do more than just add one fighter or bomber :D Go wild. Include the valkyrie and a few others while you're at it :D
If you want to do it though I can talk you through it. An addition like this is pretty easy.
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Such a simple thread can grow ideas.
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or just sod it and get the Freespace Port. Worth it just for the Apollo.
I don't recall an Athena DH. Is it a mod. ship ?
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Yep. It's a mod.
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Obviously.
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no it's not:wtf:
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For the love of ... Here:
(http://img79.exs.cx/img79/9745/AthenaDH.jpg)
@karajorma - yes, do talk me trough it. I want to modify the original FS2 campaign a bit...
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Comparing the Athena to the Herc 2? At least the Athena doesn't look like a truncated tadpole! Lets hear it for the sighs of disappointment when we first saw the 'upgraded' 'improved' 'looks stupid' FS2 Herc-replacement! :)
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Originally posted by Raa
Meh.
We all love tha Athena.
It was beloved in FS1, and was missed in FS2, only because V never had anything quite the same in the sequal.
The Zues was supposed to have replaced it.
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Yeah, but it did a poor job of it... And the Zues just doesn't look good either...
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Originally posted by TrashMan
(http://img79.exs.cx/img79/9745/AthenaDH.jpg)
that's awesome.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
@karajorma - yes, do talk me trough it. I want to modify the original FS2 campaign a bit...
Adding a new ship or weapons to the existing campaign is a pretty simple process although it may be a little time consuming.
The first step is to add the ship/weapon to the tables. I'm assuming that you already know how to do this :)
The second step is to add the new ship to the ships Alpha 1 is allowed to fly in the campaign. You can do this in two ways.
a. Go to the campaign editor in FRED. Load in the main FS2 campaign file. From the initial status menu choose either ships or weapons and tick the box corresponding to the new ship or weapon you're adding.
b. A more controlled way is to use the allow-ship/allow-weapon SEXP's. If you do this the ship will only be available in missions following the one you just edited. This is how [V] did in FS2 with every ship except for the Myrm (Which you fly in the first mission and therefore had to be enabled in the way described above).
The third and most time consuming step (although even this shouldn't take too long) is to open each mission that you want the player to be able to use the new ship/weapon in. Go to the Team Loadout editor and tick the boxes for the new weapons/ships.
That's pretty much it. If you did step 2b rather than 2a you should probably also add the tech-add-ship/tech-add-weapons SEXPs so that the ship appears in the techroom.
NB. The tech-add-x SEXPs (and maybe the allow-x ones) are NOT visible in FRED2 retail. You have to type them in manually. FRED2_Open doesn't suffer from this problem.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
For the love of ... Here:
(http://img79.exs.cx/img79/9745/AthenaDH.jpg)
(http://www.sectorgame.com/forums/images/smiles/XXpuke.gif)
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The texturing is kinda messy...
I remember a MUCH better-looking Athena reskin done up in a closer-to-Artemis D.H. style. It was called the Eris, but I'll be darned if I can tell you where I saw it...
No, wait. Setekh did a render of it once.
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I have no problem with that reskin.
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no one wants to produce nor fly obsolete ships. It doesn't matter if they'd do ok with current technology; they're crap compared to the best available
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*raises eyebrow* If no one wants to fly them, why do we? Also, we've already demonstrated it is both faster and has better secondary weapon space then a Herc II.
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That Athena texture is just ugly :ick:
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Strange thigs are afot..
I re-installed FS2 and put in the media Vp's textures, new weapon effects and I'm using the 3.6 build of SCP..
Everything works fine...
So I went to add 2-3 shipšs to the ships tbl and edit the weaponry a bit. Everything works fine, only the Medusa bomber has dissapeared from the FRED list and in all missions it's replaced by te Ulysies???
I check the TBl entry but couldn't find anything wrong wiht it..
PROBLEM 2:
First I tried editing the campaig file - no effect.
Then I went and edited loadouts in missions - works only in simulator
Now I added Events that give ships and weapons, but only in certain missions...(still haven't got to these missions)
Weapon loadout on starting ship changes I make (I even switched some ships) work fine..
I'm a bit stumped - do I need to start a new campaign?
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Originally posted by TrashMan
PROBLEM 2:
First I tried editing the campaig file - no effect.
It will only have an effect if you restart the campaign IIRC. AFAIK the starting loadout is only checked at the start of the campaign.
Originally posted by TrashMan
Then I went and edited loadouts in missions - works only in simulator
Yeah. That's cause missions in the simulator don't have a campaign loadout to refer to. As such they can use any ship that the mission's team loadout allows.
Originally posted by TrashMan
Now I added Events that give ships and weapons, but only in certain missions...(still haven't got to these missions)
Weapon loadout on starting ship changes I make (I even switched some ships) work fine..
I'm a bit stumped - do I need to start a new campaign?
Pretty much yes. The allow-ship SEXP's only take effect from the mission you used them in so using them will work on a campaign in progress if you still have to fly the mission. The game won't retroactively check if you used the SEXP in missions you've already passed though. Restarting the campaign will avoid these issues.
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Originally posted by TopAce
I have no problem with that reskin.
It's poorly detailed, low res, scrappy, washed out and looks like a basic hue-fill + jpg lossy compression job to me - that's why I don't like it.
To be clear.
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Thanx karajorma...Now all I need to do is figure out this disspaering Medusa thing....
the texturing job isn't uber-superb, but if you have another texture, I would be glad to see it..
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Originally posted by aldo_14
It's poorly detailed, low res, scrappy, washed out and looks like a basic hue-fill + jpg lossy compression job to me - that's why I don't like it.
To be clear.
I don't know jack about the technicalities of fighter mapping but Athena DH is certantly a cool idea.
Anyone fancy a proper High Poly redo ? (FS Upgrade Project maybe ?)
they're still going right ? :nervous:
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Originally posted by aldo_14
It's poorly detailed, low res, scrappy, washed out and looks like a basic hue-fill + jpg lossy compression job to me - that's why I don't like it.
To be clear.
You know that it is impossible to convince me. ;)
At least I know why YOU don't like it.
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It just struck me and I'm doing a more Advanced Athena version as I type this..
Anyone willing to texture it once I'm done?
B.t.w. - still haven't been able to bring zthe Medusa back. I just don't get it - everything is fine with the TBl - it's the original entry!
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Just re-extract the original entry and past over the top of the one you've got. That will take care of any stupid typos or such that you may have made.
BTW Is the medusa just after the Athena in your new table by any chance?
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I) just remebered Black Wolf did that re-skin...
Yes, the Medusa is right after the Athena DH in the table..you think I should try changing the location?
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I suspect you've done something wrong with the DH table entry then. Move it below the Medusa and see if the next bomber in line vanishes.
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Can we get the entire table entry? We would be able to point out the problem after a few seconds of examining.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
*raises eyebrow* If no one wants to fly them, why do we? Also, we've already demonstrated it is both faster and has better secondary weapon space then a Herc II.
Actually the Herc II has better weapon compatibility and missile banks (80/100 vs. 80/80 for the Athena).
The Athena, though, is faster and has much better afterburners. It's useful in tactical roles.
no one wants to produce nor fly obsolete ships. It doesn't matter if they'd do ok with current technology; they're crap compared to the best available
Bear in mind that there are still a number of the old ones still already made, and readily available. They're also bound to be a good deal cheaper than any of the new, flashy stuff.
Economics is a major concern for the military, whether they like it or not. Especially after the general destruction and loss of materiel that occurred at Capella.
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The Capellan incident has nothing to do with the retirement of the Athena. Weapon compatibility might have been the problem. It cannot carry the Prometheus and any bombs.
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Weapon refit costs are usually much less than building new stuff...
That's why there are still B52s and F4s flying around today...
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Real-life examples are quite convincing.
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FS1 ships were almost completely outclassed by the Shivans. Hence they had to be replaced to anticipate a future threat.
With the Athena, et al, obsolete, they were probably all scrapped for spare parts/material, or sold off modified to civvies. i.e. like the Ulysses (a far newer ship and one with a more symbolic value) was setup to only act as weapons test platform.
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We can safely say that Herc2 and Ares replaced the old roles covered by the Athena...
How effectively i cannot say though...
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The Ares is an overkill with 6 primary banks and an unrealistically high payload.
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P47 Anyone?
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Didn;t you read the tech description? It handles like a potato. More than balances the weapons loadout out.
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Not to mention it's almost as slow as an heavy bomber...
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Burn Baby!!! Burn!!!
Erhm..I mean that's what afterburners are there for.
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It's afterburners dont last very long either.
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What do you people think is better Herk, Herk 2 or Herk 3 (ares)
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The Ares will kick any older fighter, however i won't bet on Herc2 if it faces an Herc in close combat...
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Campaign-wise I'd take the Ares, but in a pvp-setting? Hard to say, they're all like giant targets painted bright red.
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Here's my new Athena model..anyone want a shot at texturing it?
(http://img80.exs.cx/img80/361/NewAthena.jpg)
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Looks a bit low poly(ish) but otherwise is fine...
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It's nice Trashman but if you're going to make a new Athena model you might as well go the whole hog and make a high poly one.
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Still not done..It allready has more polys than the original, but I don't want to overdo it..
Good textures can do wonders, and there is no sense in going wild with polys just coause I can...
There are people with slower machines...
EDIT: Medusa works again!
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You don't need THAT many polies for an HTL fighter, because you aren't going to see the fighter too much and there will be plenty of them..
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I'll start a poll, this is a silly place to talk about it (Herk debate)
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Good textures can do wonders, and there is no sense in going wild with polys just coause I can...
There are people with slower machines...
They can use the version from the FS1 port :D
I'm not saying you should waste polys but there are some parts of the model that could be smoother.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Here's my new Athena model..anyone want a shot at texturing it?
(http://img80.exs.cx/img80/361/NewAthena.jpg)
Is this suppossed to be a new Athena, or a HTL remodel? Because it's too similar for the former and doesn't look right for the latter.
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New one..
In case you haven't noticed, it's slightly different and has more missile launchers..
I'm gonna add more detail to it, but terran designes are blocky, so don't expect vasudan smoothnes...
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I'd strongly suggest giving it the same bird-of-prey wing shape as the original, it's hella useful for the impression of agility & speed....
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Eh?It's wings are modified after the original. They are allmost indentical...
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I like that model. It is a typical 'low-poly, but nice!'.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Eh?It's wings are modified after the original. They are allmost indentical...
OOps :o. I was thinking of, er, something else.
Ok, add the sweep forward-sweep back wings, then. It'll kick arse :D
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I think I know what you mean..
But I want to keep the original Athena feel..
This version has more volume and more missile launchers.
did some optimization and after that added more detail..around 720 polys now, and I really don't see a need for more....
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Originally posted by TrashMan
...did some optimization and after that added more detail..around 720 polys now, and I really don't see a need for more....
Because there isn't a need. :nod:
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Right then...anyone want ot texture it with areally cool SOC texture?
Don't have Photoshop on me now, so I can't do it...
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Originally posted by Zarax
Weapon refit costs are usually much less than building new stuff...
That's why there are still B52s and F4s flying around today...
However, the weapons of a B-52 and an F-4 aren't complex energy weapons, they're mostly bombs with advanced tracking devices. The differences between an iron bomb and a smart one are inside the bomb, not the plane.
That's where the difference is. The Athena, and many of the other FS1 craft, use energy weapons powered off of the ship's reactor. If the recactor can't put out enough energy to power the weapon as well as all the other internal systems (including the newly developed shields and the engines), then either the ship or the weapon has to go. Given the Shivan threat, the ship would go since you needed the weapon to actually win the battle, where the ship without the weapon would simply be a target to the Shivan hoards. That might come in handy in some situations, but in the long run, not so much.
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Secondaries does not use energy... Also, Avenger and Maxim are supposed to be mass drivers, so no need of new reactor and stuff...
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Maxim is a mass driver that uses a lot of energy though. So the need for a new reactor is still plausible.
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Well, it's only for balance purposes imho... can't check the tables right now but i bet the Athena has better energy output/reserves than the erinyes...
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Mass drivers use electromagnetic plates / coils (i.e. gauss cannon/coilgun, railgun) to accelerate the projectile anyways, IIRC, so they do need a decent amount of reactor power.
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Athena: $Power Output: 2.0
HL7: $Energy Consumed: 0.2
Akheton: $Energy Consumed: 1.6
Morning Star: $Energy Consumed: 0.8
Prom R: $Energy Consumed: 0.60
Prom S: $Energy Consumed: 1.0
Maxim: $Energy Consumed: 0.1
Kayser: $Energy Consumed: 1.2
With 4 gunpoints on the Athena you can use without overloading the reactor:
Subach
Maxim
Doesn't look that bad to me... i can live without kaysers on a bomber, with HL7 and Maxims you shouldn't have too many problems even if you need to dogfight...
I admit reactor power is below average for FS2 standards, but it's still reasonable enough to carry some decent firepower.
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Is installing a new power plant so far fetched?
And you can actually use all weapons, only they would drain your energy reserves fast. Maxim and subach wouldn't drain them at all...
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Originally posted by Zarax
Athena: $Power Output: 2.0
HL7: $Energy Consumed: 0.2
Akheton: $Energy Consumed: 1.6
Morning Star: $Energy Consumed: 0.8
Prom R: $Energy Consumed: 0.60
Prom S: $Energy Consumed: 1.0
Maxim: $Energy Consumed: 0.1
Kayser: $Energy Consumed: 1.2
With 4 gunpoints on the Athena you can use without overloading the reactor:
Subach
Maxim
Doesn't look that bad to me... i can live without kaysers on a bomber, with HL7 and Maxims you shouldn't have too many problems even if you need to dogfight...
I admit reactor power is below average for FS2 standards, but it's still reasonable enough to carry some decent firepower.
what about engines & shields, though? None of the old FS ships - Athena, Apollo, maybe the Valkyrie (can't remember) were made with shields or,indeed, inter system jump drives in mind.
Originally posted by TrashMan
Is installing a new power plant so far fetched?
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Quite possibly... it may be that the size of the new reactor isn;t a problem, but the overload on the internal wiring would be too great.
What you could regard it as being like, is the transition between propeller driver WW2 fighters to the jet era... i.e. the newer (still in use) FS1 ships could have been developed with a view towards inter-system drives & shields (with reactor space and wiring to anticipate this), whilst the older ships just couldn't be future proofed in the same way.
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FS1 ships could be upgraded with intersystem jump drive, the only drawback was that it was costly to do it...
If GTVA equipped oldies like the medusa with the various upgrades then it should be possible on Athena too...
Shields can be trickier, but given how fast they were installed fleet wide during FS1 i don't think they should be too much of a problem...
If you can explain why Medusa, Herc1 and Ursa were upgraded and why other stuff wasn't then you will have a solid point...
Given FSbible they all were aorund the same age old, so you need a tauthology to prove you're right... good luck.
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Originally posted by Zarax
FS1 ships could be upgraded with intersystem jump drive, the only drawback was that it was costly to do it...
If GTVA equipped oldies like the medusa with the various upgrades then it should be possible on Athena too...
Shields can be trickier, but given how fast they were installed fleet wide during FS1 i don't think they should be too much of a problem...
If you can explain why Medusa, Herc1 and Ursa were upgraded and why other stuff wasn't then you will have a solid point...
Given FSbible they all were aorund the same age old, so you need a tauthology to prove you're right... good luck.
IIRC the FS Ref bible doesn't give the Medusa, Ursa, or Herc an exact age vs the Athena or Apollo (or indeed the Valkyrie, which is after all based upon the older Angel class). Only the Apollo and Athena are stated as stalwarts of the TV-war.
The Apollo is the original Space Superiority Fighter of the Terran fleet. After years of faithful service, it is still the first ship granted to commissioned GTA pilots (Apollo)
Dubbed the "lightning bomber" by some of its pilots, this little wonder was the mainstay of the GTA fleet before it started developing its bigger warheads (Athena)
It's possible that the newer FS1 ships were simply designed for future-upgrading, whereas the Athena & Apollo were not.
You've pretty much answered it with the cost thing there, though (which had never occured to me, actually) - the cost of shoe-horning in an inter-system drive in what was increasingly an outdated and cannon-fodder ship probably contributed a great deal to the retirement of the Athena, etc. Eventually, the modifications required would become more expensive than building a new ship.
And, of course, the Medusa, Herc, Ulysses, etc are being retired by the time of FS2 - the Artemis, Boanerges, Myrmidon, et al entering mainstream service - and are largely (only?) used by rebel forces.
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I believe it's said in the Subspace info, that intersystem drives for fighters are "prohibitively expensive to produce". From that I infer that not all fighters have intersystem drives -- it's too expensive to fit 'em all with them.
The Tsunami was a fat, unwieldy bomb, and the Medusa had to be designed with them in mind. Cyclops torpedoes, with their narrower fuselage, are more likely to be usable by Athenas, given a little shoehorning. Athenas probably used a lighter, thinner torpedo during their T-V War service. (the anti-hull precursor to the Stiletto, or something along those lines)
Finally, you must understand that corporate types, mercs, pirates and such can't always afford the newest stuff. Athenas and Apollos and such are bound to still be in use by someone.
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Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Finally, you must understand that corporate types, mercs, pirates and such can't always afford the newest stuff. Athenas and Apollos and such are bound to still be in use by someone.
You don't see modern day criminals / pirates / civvies using mothballed WW1 destroyers and flying about in Spitfires though, do you?
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No, but you see plenty third world countries using korea/vietnam era stuff all the time...
Also, the medusa was still in use by GTVA in FS2, and you even fly it in a few missions IIRC...
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Originally posted by Zarax
No, but you see plenty third world countries using korea/vietnam era stuff all the time...
Also, the medusa was still in use by GTVA in FS2, and you even fly it in a few missions IIRC...
But a third world country is a hell of a far cry from a civvie organisation. Especially if they are given/cheap-sold these (i.e. by US / USSR to stem the flow of Communism/Capitalism ala the Cold War).
Nor is there any mention of how prevalent civvie traffic is in FS, AFAIK we don't even know if there is any civvie traffic.
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There has to be. Otherwise no one would have colonized anything outside the Sol system. If there's nothing profitable in space but the military, no one would have gone there.
Profitable spacebound industry means there'll be civvies. At the absolute minimum, there are the Naval contractors and food shipments.
It's likely that (in the FS universe) there are burgeoning industries in space. Mining guilds, random civilians going on cruises to exotic locales (Luyten or Aldebaren maybe?), various shipping companies all competing with each other, etc.
The Navy and SOC don't have a monopoly on all the ships in space. It'd be too much of an economic drain to run everything that way. Hell, most of the military ships and weapons in the game are made by private contractors! More likely the GTVA just commandeers ships in times of dire need, or near the front lines, where nearly all of FS and FS2 take place.
Or maybe civvies just avoid embattled areas like the plague. :P
(Ironic, innit, that all this talk of privatization in space is coming from a die-hard liberal. :P)
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BTW, even today there are mercenary organizations that uses military grade equipment...
Sukhoy even offers a complete service, they build an air force for you from aircrafts to pilots and generals...
And more important you are all forgetting NTF...
How come that a (well, it was GTVA until a couple of years before FS2) GTVA fleet is still pretty much armed with Great War era weaponry?
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I think the 6th Fleet wasn't exactly trusted by GTVA command even before the rebellion, so they got lesser equipment. Also, it would appear the Herc II, Myrmidon, and Perseus are relatively new, less then three years old. The defecting NTF had minimal numbers of these to begin with, because deployment had begun only a few months before the rebellion, and what they did have has seen 18 months of combat, during which it has been damaged/destroyed/generally messed up. Also probably the NTF has very few spare parts left after 18 months of combat ops for those ships, so they aren't used much for fear they'll break and be unfixable.
There's also the matter that the NTF Rebellion actually helped the GTVA deploy the newer equipment more widely, in a sense, because they didn't have to deploy it to the fleets that had defected to the NTF. In all likelyhood, you wouldn't have had quite so much of the advanced hardware at your disposal in FS2 had the NTF Rebellion not occurred.
Of course, without the NTF Rebellion, there would be no FS2, because the NTF wouldn't exsist, and the Shivans would still be on the other side of a shut-down Knossos...
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Whatever you say, it allways cheper to upgrade older stuff than to build new one.
Even if you have to dissasembe the Athena piece by piece and put it back together with a few newer components, its still cheaper than designing, testing and producing a new fighter that will be finish god knows when..
Even if this wasn't hte case, who said that the Athena Hull can't be used for a new bomber? Everything is new - onyl hte hull is the same...
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They would still need to test the redesign, or else it might not work.
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Originally posted by Mad Bomber
There has to be. Otherwise no one would have colonized anything outside the Sol system. If there's nothing profitable in space but the military, no one would have gone there.
Profitable spacebound industry means there'll be civvies. At the absolute minimum, there are the Naval contractors and food shipments.
It's likely that (in the FS universe) there are burgeoning industries in space. Mining guilds, random civilians going on cruises to exotic locales (Luyten or Aldebaren maybe?), various shipping companies all competing with each other, etc.
The Navy and SOC don't have a monopoly on all the ships in space. It'd be too much of an economic drain to run everything that way. Hell, most of the military ships and weapons in the game are made by private contractors! More likely the GTVA just commandeers ships in times of dire need, or near the front lines, where nearly all of FS and FS2 take place.
Or maybe civvies just avoid embattled areas like the plague. :P
(Ironic, innit, that all this talk of privatization in space is coming from a die-hard liberal. :P)
Or, Earth was simply overpopulated. I'd expect a degree of civvie travel myself, but I don't see it as essential or wide scale..... sort of like the equivalent of having a private 747 nowadays.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Or, Earth was simply overpopulated. I'd expect a degree of civvie travel myself, but I don't see it as essential or wide scale..... sort of like the equivalent of having a private 747 nowadays.
Even if that were the case, that Earth and Vas Prime were just overpopulated and the respective governments moved people offworld, it's been more than long enough for trade to become a necessity (especially since the destruction of Vas Prime and the cutoff of the Sol system).
Also, when I say "civilian" travel, I'm not just referring to the occasional rich bastard with his own Argo, or some random freelancer with his own ship a la Cowboy Bebop. I mean large corporations and guilds, too.
Today we have companies like Fedex and UPS shipping things by air -- that's privately owned. The various airlines that exist today, too. That's private ownership.
On a similar note, in the FS universe, there has to be some places with poor food production capacity, or SOMETHING to require a burgeoning, trading economy (unless you're of the opinion that the entire GTVA and its economy are both run in a neocommunist government-owns-all fashion). But even just the military components needed for fleet operation need to be built by corporations (e.g. Akheton, Sahr, Subach) and shipped. I'd expect some of said corporations to own at least a few of their own freighters for emergencies.
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Has anyone tried to create a mod that REPLACES FS2 ships with various FS1 versions for use with the main campaign? This way you can play FS2's main campaign with retro technology and see if you can beat it? :)
If this kind of mod doesnt exist already, maybe I'll make one...complete with turning the Colossus into the Hades and the Sathanas into the Lucifer...heh heh heh heh...
*runs off cackling with glee...to hell with continuity...im SO going to try this if nobody else has!*
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You know, I like that idea. A lot...
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I think I'll start off very subtly, just changing the Terran fighters only to their FS1 counterparts and seeing if they have a chance...bwahahahahhaha. *cough* hmmm...and yes...athena would have its niche in the grand scheme of things...
...ill make the mod once i get bored enough to do it...
...resume the athena thread already in progress as if I didn't say anything...the previous discussion was getting interesting :)
Originally posted by TrashMan
New one..
In case you haven't noticed, it's slightly different and has more missile launchers..
I'm gonna add more detail to it, but terran designes are blocky, so don't expect vasudan smoothnes...
Call it the Athena Mk.II and make it into an Athena/Artemis hybrid in stats? :)
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Whatever you say, it allways cheper to upgrade older stuff than to build new one.
No, no it's not. Sometimes, yes, it is. Mostly though, it's not.
Think about the advances in technology the GTVA has developed since the Great War. Shields, advanced energy weapons, new tracking systems, new armor, plus all the shared stuff that was picked up from the Vasudans. In 32 years, the GTVA went from having plasma bolt weapons that couldn't hit **** to beam cannons that could take down everything from a fighter to a Demon destroyer. That's a lot of tech to try to shoehorn into an already old fighter/bomber hull. Be easier, and cheaper, to build a new one, from scratch, with all the tech already incorporated into it.
Plus, how many Athena's do you think were actually left at the end of the Great War? Think of the losses the GTA and PVN took during that war, do you really think the more primitive fighters, which were in highest numbers and on the front lines from day one, actually survived? The GTA needed fighters that could actually stand a chance against the Shivan hoards, so production of Apollo's and Athena's was likely haulted in favor of the Herc and the Medusa, the ships that could actually put the hurt on the Shivans. After that, there's no point in keeping the older fighters around, there aren't enough, factories have already been retooled to make better fighters, and their tech is out of date as it is.
In the end, there was no point in upgrading these ships, they were obsolute and nearly extinct. Scrap and move the new ships in as time permits. After 32 years, they were simply all gone.
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The Apollo and Athena could, and did, stand against the Shivan hordes. They had to. They were on the spot when the Shivans came, they had to hold the line until newer ships came along. And they held it, assisted by the newcomer Valkyrie.
And, in a flat-out comparision in the game, I've discovered I would rather fly an Apollo then a Myrmidon. Smaller target profile. Nearly the same amount of weaponry. Lower speed, ably solved by better burner capacity.