Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Dekzar on September 28, 2004, 04:14:02 pm
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Hey everybody!
I've got a question for you all. I was curious, if left alone for 40 years, bothered by only very little internal problems, what do you think the Sol system was capable of in 40 years?
I mean, the impression I got from FS2 was that Sol was not just a tourist spot, but it had massive factories and could output huge numbers of ships/weapons etc. (Thus why the GTVA had to sort of rebuild their tech a little at the beginning of FS2. They were cut off from these facilities they'd relied on so much.)
So, my thoughts were, if Sol turned all that power to building up new ships and weapons, in 40 years they could have maybe a couple dozen new ship DESIGNS (Blueprints, whatever.). They could probably have built a few ships (2 or 3) each based on, say, 12-15 new designs.
What do you guys think? What could Sol accomplish in 40 years?
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An Orion with 5 more guns.
If Sol was a massive shipyard with billions of people, and hadn;t been at least partly evac-ed in FS1, and hadn't suffered any internal strife, then they'd probably just run out of materials sharpish.
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Let us not forget that Sol also had the partial wreckage of the Lucifer. They would, however, be getting very starved for food/materials, since the Sol system has no relief outlet for population growth.
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Play Sol:A History:p
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Are they capable of creating the EA as seen in Inferno? Certainly. They're probably actually ahead in terms of beam tech, since they got the front end of the Lucifer to work with instead of just sensor records.
Given what's said in FS1's ending, it seems likely that they would expect the next ship from outside the solar system that showed up to be Shivan, and have probably armed themselves to the teeth in anticipation of that. They can beat another Lucifer now; there is no defense except for hull plating against a beam cannon.
I would expect a fairly large fleet, roughly half the size of that of the GTVA, maybe a little more, and perhaps slightly further along in technology. I would also expect that fleet to be beam-heavy and have few conventional energy weapons mounted on their capships, though probably not so on their fighters.
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beams were developed more by that Vasudans the the former GTA, and I don't ever remember hearing that they were based even loosely on the lucifer's weapons.
anyway... /*pats BWO avitar*/
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While Terrans do seem to have more experience in more convention ordinance (missiles, bombs) and in bolt weapons (kayser), it would make sense for the Vasudans to be the ones responsible for beams. However, I can't say that I've ever heard anything canon one way or another about who created beams for the GTVA. And just because the GTVA didn't base their weapons off of Lucifer designs doesn't mean that Sol would follow the same lines.
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Does it say anywhere that the Vasudans actually developed the Beam Cannons? I know the Sobek was the first to mount the weapons, but that doesn't mean its not a joint project of some sort.
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whatever happend to the Vasudans actually still in Sol when the Lucifer blew?
I know there were at least four(the thoths). Prolly more in system though
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Originally posted by Night Hammer
whatever happend to the Vasudans actually still in Sol when the Lucifer blew?
I know there were at least four(the thoths). Prolly more in system though
They married humans and breeded a new race of "vasumans"!! :D :D
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/*unpleasent thought*/
...anyway, I don't know if it actualy said the vasudans developed beams, but I do remember that Vasudan ships were the first to mount them. but, there is a mountan of evedence for it compared to what I recal as for there being ANY conection AT ALL between the lucifer and GTVA beams, you know, other than if the lucifer hadn't been destroyed there wouldn't have been any, not from the GTVA anyway.
...
eh, ayeah.
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Beam cannons are based on the Lucifer's main guns...in case you missed the numerous references to this fact you can find on almost any FS2 website, I suggest you look here: http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/hlp/category_show.php?cat=13
See?
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
Beam cannons are based on the Lucifer's main guns...in case you missed the numerous references to this fact you can find on almost any FS2 website, I suggest you look here: http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/hlp/category_show.php?cat=13
See?
AFAIK that's not a canon reference.
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...explain to me why it's in that exact form on every site that has a "technology" section, unless it's copied from canon material?
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
...explain to me why it's in that exact form on every site that has a "technology" section, unless it's copied from canon material?
AFAIK I've not seen that in any form on either the V website or in the FS2 tbls.
AFAIK because I can't check the tbls justnow
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Whose to say the sites aren't copying one another? Personally, I don't recall seeing that text in the game anywhere . . . though some of the non-beam info is from FS2 or its brethren (the subspace info for example).
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Everyone would die, and noone would build anything.
Without supplies and materiel, I would have expected a massive death rate in Sol after Lucy popped.
On the ability to build fleets however, I'm not sure. Sol was still very much the center of the GTA, and even after 30 years the GTVA fleet really wasn't that big; I'd estimate no more than several hundred ships. I didn't really get the impression it was as large as the GTA fleet at the end of the Great War. So whatever the bottleneck is for construction in FS, it might not apply to Sol, since they do have SOME resources and most of the shipyards. But the economy would require massive restructuring, and since they may not have immediately noticed the node not working, poor management and a desire to keep the situation from the public could result in large shortages. I figure a Stalinesque approach to economic change, with billions of deaths.
Lucys head would be totally useless; until I rewatched the end cinema from FS I thought I remembered it being largely intact, but it's totally blown to ****. Its as usable as the Galatea, ie Not At All.
And anyway, Sol is likely to be immediately torn by internal division. While Sol:A History is exaggerated for dramatic purposes, its almost certain that the GTA government would fall; frankly I'd expect rioting in the streets and massive disruption. Once things calmed down they'd have a lot of catching up to do, and really, with absolutely no concievable threat, why would you concentrate on military technology beyond Keeping The Workers Down and Looking Hardcore On Television?
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Originally posted by Pnakotus
Once things calmed down they'd have a lot of catching up to do, and really, with absolutely no concievable threat, why would you concentrate on military technology beyond Keeping The Workers Down and Looking Hardcore On Television?
Same reason the GTVA do - because the shivans can travel tyhrough unstable jump nodes.
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Originally posted by Pnakotus
Everyone would die, and noone would build anything.
Without supplies and materiel, I would have expected a massive death rate in Sol after Lucy popped.
On the ability to build fleets however, I'm not sure. Sol was still very much the center of the GTA, and even after 30 years the GTVA fleet really wasn't that big; I'd estimate no more than several hundred ships. I didn't really get the impression it was as large as the GTA fleet at the end of the Great War. So whatever the bottleneck is for construction in FS, it might not apply to Sol, since they do have SOME resources and most of the shipyards. But the economy would require massive restructuring, and since they may not have immediately noticed the node not working, poor management and a desire to keep the situation from the public could result in large shortages. I figure a Stalinesque approach to economic change, with billions of deaths.
Lucys head would be totally useless; until I rewatched the end cinema from FS I thought I remembered it being largely intact, but it's totally blown to ****. Its as usable as the Galatea, ie Not At All.
And anyway, Sol is likely to be immediately torn by internal division. While Sol:A History is exaggerated for dramatic purposes, its almost certain that the GTA government would fall; frankly I'd expect rioting in the streets and massive disruption. Once things calmed down they'd have a lot of catching up to do, and really, with absolutely no concievable threat, why would you concentrate on military technology beyond Keeping The Workers Down and Looking Hardcore On Television?
Because a war, whether it exists or not, is a great way of keeping the people motivated. Read 1984, or - for a less extreme and real life example - look at how the US is keeping up military spending with no tangible* enemy at present.
*because terrorism isn't a tangible or conventional military enemy
Or there could be a re-factionalising of the system, rebellions in the more neglected planets like Mars, or the moon / colonies in the outer reaches of the system.
For example, if materials were short and the Gas Giants or the asteroid belt were being extensively mined and tightly controlled from Earth, the locals might get restless and demand more influence.... if given then older, but less resource-rich, worlds might complain....etc
I had a pretty good script for a 're-entry of Sol' campaign somewhere... centred around a civil war in the system where both sides were trying manipulate the GTVA to their own ends. Probably cliche-ed now, though.
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Originally posted by Pnakotus
Everyone would die, and noone would build anything.
Without supplies and materiel, I would have expected a massive death rate in Sol after Lucy popped.
On the ability to build fleets however, I'm not sure. Sol was still very much the center of the GTA, and even after 30 years the GTVA fleet really wasn't that big; I'd estimate no more than several hundred ships. I didn't really get the impression it was as large as the GTA fleet at the end of the Great War. So whatever the bottleneck is for construction in FS, it might not apply to Sol, since they do have SOME resources and most of the shipyards. But the economy would require massive restructuring, and since they may not have immediately noticed the node not working, poor management and a desire to keep the situation from the public could result in large shortages. I figure a Stalinesque approach to economic change, with billions of deaths.
Lucys head would be totally useless; until I rewatched the end cinema from FS I thought I remembered it being largely intact, but it's totally blown to ****. Its as usable as the Galatea, ie Not At All.
no one is interested in Lucys head... The arms were more-or-less in tact, and on them were the beams.
As far as the resources go - do you even have an idea how many material can one extract from the sol system?
You can build million Orions and you would still have enough for million more!
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Originally posted by TrashMan
no one is interested in Lucys head... The arms were more-or-less in tact, and on them were the beams.
As far as the resources go - do you even have an idea how many material can one extract from the sol system?
You can build million Orions and you would still have enough for million more!
a) What makes you think that the Lucifer arms are enough? The reactors, after all, were definately destroyed. Even in the unlikely event that the cannon/s on the arms survived in a functional state, where's the energy source going to come from?
b) Material in Sol would not just be used for ships. It's obvious that you'd need to build cities and whatnot on the planets, as well as the installations themselves. There's also no way to judge how much of the metal would be usable - what type & quality of metal is required for a starship hull?
c) There's also a question as to how much material was used in the pre-cutoff years, especially bother before subspace was discovered and also due to the 14-years war.
d) and also as to how efficient the extraction technology is for obtaining said resources. There's a theoretical amount of resources, and a limit of attainable resources.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
Beam cannons are based on the Lucifer's main guns...in case you missed the numerous references to this fact you can find on almost any FS2 website, I suggest you look here: http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/hlp/category_show.php?cat=13
See?
here let me post an equaly valid cannonal source,
Originally posted by Bobboau
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...there is a mountan of evedence for it compared to what I recal as for there being ANY conection AT ALL between the lucifer and GTVA beams, you know, other than if the lucifer hadn't been destroyed there wouldn't have been any, not from the GTVA
just becase fifty fans think it's cool to say that beam cannons were reverse engeneered from Shivan weapons doesn't make i fact, look in the game and find some text from the origonal VPs to back you up.
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Civil war would have been the most likely step after the lose of Sol-Delta Serpentis node. Look at our history whever there is competition for resources, we get nasty. Sol:A History is a good idea of what would of happened (though I would disagree with some stuff[still very good though]). It's also important to note that the population would have to come under strict control or the system would become over populated (or stick OAP's on Pluto)
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Originally posted by Fergus
It's also important to note that the population would have to come under strict control or the system would become over populated (or stick OAP's on Pluto)
The Near Death Star (http://www.geocities.com/theneutralplanet/transcripts/uncut/2ACV10.html)
(http://www.lapropagationduchaos.net/what/futurama/futurama_death.jpg)
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*looks at MG. Smiles* ;)
Originally posted by aldo_14
a) What makes you think that the Lucifer arms are enough? The reactors, after all, were definately destroyed. Even in the unlikely event that the cannon/s on the arms survived in a functional state, where's the energy source going to come from?
Even without the reactors the arms could still give the GTA a huge leg up on figuring out how beams work. Look at how quickly they reverse engineered shields with less to work from.
Besides it's quite possible the reactors were in the arms and the reactors on the main body of the Lucifer powered the shields. After all we've never seen another shivan ship with external reactors. That could mean that the Shivan learnt to bury them or that they weren't anything to do with beams. Take your pick as to the answer.
Originally posted by aldo_14
b) Material in Sol would not just be used for ships. It's obvious that you'd need to build cities and whatnot on the planets, as well as the installations themselves. There's also no way to judge how much of the metal would be usable - what type & quality of metal is required for a starship hull?
c) There's also a question as to how much material was used in the pre-cutoff years, especially bother before subspace was discovered and also due to the 14-years war.
d) and also as to how efficient the extraction technology is for obtaining said resources. There's a theoretical amount of resources, and a limit of attainable resources.
All valid points. But all open to interpretation. It's possible that Sol had enough to rebuild it's own fleet. I've always seen Sol as being the powerhouse of the GTA rather than simply one powerful world amongst many. The fact that Luyten was able to go from undiscovered world to regional superpower in less than 20 years or so suggests that the other worlds weren't that powerful.
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Originally posted by karajorma
Even without the reactors the arms could still give the GTA a huge leg up on figuring out how beams work. Look at how quickly they reverse engineered shields with less to work from.
Besides it's quite possible the reactors were in the arms and the reactors on the main body of the Lucifer powered the shields. After all we've never seen another shivan ship with external reactors. That could mean that the Shivan learnt to bury them or that they weren't anything to do with beams. Take your pick as to the answer.
Shields were already being developed by the GTVA, I think - I'm sure there's a mention somewhere of the MX-50 being tested on the 'Ross 128 deflector array' or something similar.
EDIT; http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/techfs/fs1/wmv.shtml
I'm not sure if this is from the tbls / fsbible
I'm sure it pre-dates fighter deployment of shields, though, because I would expect the Lucifer to have destroyed the deflector array along with the Riviera Installation.
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The GTA was experimenting with shield technology at GTI Riviera according to the FS Bible.
I think having a look at how the Shivans did it allowed for some breakthroughts.
BWO assumes that Sol was rocked with internal strife when suddenly their empire was removed from the picture altogether. Lucifer debris doesn't count much in my mind...the thing exploded pretty handily. Not much left to study...
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I'm veering towards a more...um....
apocalyptic
aftermath now, myself.........
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Where was the jump node in relation to Earth?
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Originally posted by Night Hammer
Where was the jump node in relation to Earth?
Quite close, IIRC you can see Earth as the camera pans out from the Lucifer exploding... i.e. within the orbit of Earth and Mars/Venus.
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OK than yes I can see an apocalyptic end to earth caused by the large amount of energy displaced by the Lucifer exploding, messing with all kinds of stuff on earth and the moon
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It prolly wouldn't take the whole GTA out though, im sure they were spread throughout the system
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Lucifer is big...but it's not that big. And not all of it got out of subspace. Didn't it kind of get cut off a short ways down the front end?
Edit: About the beams. Why are you assuming I mean they came from a table or .vp file? The most likely place for that info in my mind was the FS2 manual. Somebody check that.
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Actually that jump node was just outside of lunar orbit, according to the cutscene. You see the moon quite close as the scene pans, with earth in the distance. I doubt the lucifer's debris would even have made it to earth though, even at that range. If it was an apocalipse, it would have to be of man's causing.
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Lucifer explosion would have been a drop in the bucket...space is big.
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but you gotta think theres some kinda cilvilization on the moon, you dont think any radiation or things of that nature would carry tht far?
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The point about it affecting the moon may be valid, but compared to the amount of radiation Earth recieves from the sun and is filtered by the atmosphere, the Lucifers explosion would be piddly. Unless you start talking about subspace shockwaves or some other fictional phenomenon, then anything goes.
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hmmm.......could the debris have collided with Earth though? Something that large would cause some damage me thinks.....but then, they could just move it about.
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I don't get where people think the Earth is in some great peril because of the Lucifer exploding. Did the pilot of Alpha 1 give that impression in his monologue? Certainly not.
I also don't understand why people think that the Earth would be on the brink of economic and social collaspe because it was cut off from the rest of the GTA. It's my understanding that the rest of the GTA was in collapse, not Sol. Listen to Bosche's opening monologue, his story is basically saying their outcasts from the pinnacle of human achievement. The mood is like any fantasy story in circulation like Lord of the Rings, the 'golden age' of great cities and so forth is past because Sol is cut off from everyone else.
I don't think Sol would be starving for food, or resources. There are a lot of planets and a lot of moons to get minerals from . . . they won't all be harvested out in a few hundred years from present day. If and when the GTA regains contact with Sol, they'll probably have a formidable fleet and very strong defences to counter any potential Shivan invasions. I think they might be lagging behind the GTVA though, simply because they probably haven't seen another major war and war tends to fuel military advances.
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I think most of the Lucifer explosion was contained within subspace, anyway.