Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Gai Daigoji on October 01, 2004, 04:05:26 am
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I'm not sure if this has been asked before but it can't hurt to ask I guess!
Anyways I was watching the FS2 movies last night and I came to the last one (Were the Shivan fleet destroys the Capella Star)
Now I noticed something when I watched it - a few of the ships stay behind but a few jump out.
Now they could be jumping to other parts of Capella but why would they since they knew it was about to go bye-bye?
And since they didn't use a Node to escape the system, does that mean they can jump without the use of a Node?
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One thing people seem to forget: Yes, the GTVA collapsed the nodes to Epsilon Pegausi and Vega, but the node to Gamma Draconis was still open, so the Sathani could have jumped there and gotten out. Though I suspect the tail-end charlies probably got incinerated along with everyone else in Capella because there just wasn't enough time for the Shivans to get everyone through the node they wanted to.
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They jumped to other systems without the use of a (known) node with Ross-128, so it's possible the ones that jumped out jumped to another system.
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Or they jumped out to wait in subspace for the shockwave to pass.
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Or, as Admiral Petrarch postulated, perhaps a star explosion (or any similar rapid change in gravitics) messes with subspace to an insane degree, drastically changing the destination.
Maybe even allowing them to travel through time. (But probably not.)
Another possibility is that changing one part of the subspace network will cause changes elsewhere. The Shivans know what they're doing with regards to that, so it's possible they simply knew which star to detonate to get other nodes working, for whatever reason (this would also explain why they didn't blow up Gamma Drac).
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Or that the Shivans caused the supernova by accident as they were jumping out through that space 'rift' type thing you can see between their,um, prongs in the cutscene.
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Except that the sun started to go weird and green before they jumped out. And the ones that did jump out didn't have the 'rift' thing in front of them anymore.
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Originally posted by Ransom Arceihn
Except that the sun started to go weird and green before they jumped out. And the ones that did jump out didn't have the 'rift' thing in front of them anymore.
Doesn't discount it, though.
Maybe they required the suns gravity field, or solar wind, or whatever, to create the rifts - the sun was affected too early, however, and some of the ships lost all power. The rest, could have entered conventional subspace to escape, or perhaps the visual rift had created a localised effect that allowed them to enter a form of 'supersubspace' when they jumped out.
Or maybe they used the rifts to channel something out of the sun and into whatever the rift was.
Or they simply changed subspace in that area... maybe the 'dead' Sathani screwed it up or something, and their loss of power was a more extreme version of the phenomenom where ships lose shielding in subspace.
:)
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Ah. Now that's an interesting theory.
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subspace requires the gravity generated by local stars so I always imagined subspace wouldn't neccessarily be a safe place to ride the nova shockwave.
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maybe they created a black hole intentionaly and traveled through it to another universe or galaxy, black holes also have very high gravitational fields, much stronger than a star.
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If you look, when they're creating that big-ass subspace field, some of them grow dark right after they finish: Presumably they exhausted all their energy to open the rift so that the others could escape.
The ones that were left behind were probably destroyed by the supernova.
*sniff* Such noble creatuARGH! *splat!*
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Originally posted by magatsu1
subspace requires the gravity generated by local stars so I always imagined subspace wouldn't neccessarily be a safe place to ride the nova shockwave.
Maybe that's exactly the effect they wanted. Who knows what could happen if you are in subspace when a massive gravity shift occurs?
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It's been an almost general consensus that the Sathanes were using Capella to create some sort of rift to somwhere very far away. I agree with Cyker's assessment; those that stayed behind exhausted their energy to enable the others to reach their destination. I've always wondered if the Shivans evacuated those Sathanes and left them on autopilot, or if the Shivans on those ships just drew the short straw :p.
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On the contrary Mongoose, it's complete conjecture on all of our parts to make that assumption. The rest of the Shivan fleet in Capella wasn't even around the star, and we know that some of them were still fully online and functional when the supernova hit. The long-jump theory is presented by Petrarch in the final briefing, but you really don't know and aren't supposed to know exactly what happened and why. I always have interpreted it as the GTVA having to step back and say "holy crap, they just waltzed in and ****ed up one of our systems. Ph34r the Shivans" rather than them using one of the GTVA systems for some higher and less melvolent purpose.
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I personally lean towards the idea that they blew the star to either lock the GTVA in, or lock somebody else out. Even if the GTVA hadn't collapsed the nodes, Capella would still be too hot for a ship to handle for a few thousand years after the supernova.
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Petrach theory about them beeing "exiles looking for a way home" stinks to the heaves.
Exiles wouldn't massacre other species they encounter...
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hmmm...no, not a few thousand years. a few months, perhaps. supernovas die out in about two weeks from what we've seen from earth.
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We don't know.
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Okay, we've been told that the Shivans were part of a larger problem.
What if they were like rats on a sinking ship, using Capella to facilitate their total retreat from an enemy so awe inspiringly powerful that the shivans realize they stand no chance and they're retreating till they can build up their forces enough to defeat the enemy or they're just plain abandoning this galaxy and leaving us to our fate. Either way, we were just in the way.
OT, the Sathanai that stayed sacrificed themselves so the rest could escape.
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@Carl
The light from them dies out. Not the superheated ionized gas and super-high radiation levels.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Maybe that's exactly the effect they wanted. Who knows what could happen if you are in subspace when a massive gravity shift occurs?
Nodewar 2 had something like that happen towards the end.
It was quite climactic and scary.
(hopes someone has archived NW2-Endgame, so people can read about the two Lucifers getting blown up in the Tau Ceti node while wrestling with the Gravity-Shield-equipped Havok)
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I actually find Petrarch's theory quite elegant and highly probable. The fact that it's mentioned in the ending cutscene adds some credibility to the opinion that that's what [V] had planned.
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The wierd part is that the capella supernova doesn't leave anything... from the cutscene it doesn't seem like any neutron star, black hole, etc, etc, etc, have been formed...
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If the Shivans were running from a mightier enemy then they could use allies. Why would they be so bent on blasting the GTVA apart then?
and it they were exiles trying to reach their home, the same question again - why blast everything intelligent they meet?
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maybe it's not in their nature.
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AIEEEEE! (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,22279.0.html)
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I ignored the Shivan Manifesto as soon as I read "energy beeings"...
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Oh, how could I forget. The 'dumbest thing ever', right? :p
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I dunno. Sci-fi staple, but I'm not quite sure how a collection of energy could achieve, let alone sustain, sentience...
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Well, there are such things as hyperintelligent shades of the color blue, you know :p.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
If the Shivans were running from a mightier enemy then they could use allies. Why would they be so bent on blasting the GTVA apart then?
and it they were exiles trying to reach their home, the same question again - why blast everything intelligent they meet?
Because they're evil. Pure, simple, plain evil.
I don't think there's anything more eerie & ever terrifying than hate without a pretence.
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It´s curious that i just started writing a story that uses the Sathanii fleet´s destruction of the Capella star, to shift subspace into opening the way back to Earth...
It´s only in the initial stages, started writting yesterday, but you can read about it on my site. Read the Storyline page aswell.
http://www.geocities.com/thethirdworldwar/homeworlds_main.html (http://www.geocities.com/thethirdworldwar/homeworlds_main.html)
:cool:
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While the 'nicking of into Greenland' theory is mere conjecture, everything else (by which I mean the 'Sh1v4ns aer t3h bada55es' theory) doesn't make sense. Killing stars isn't a regular Shivan thing, since they didn't pop GD. Deeper through the Knossos network also was not destroyed. The 'kill everyone' reason is stupid because Lucy killed Vasuda Prime by herself, and one Sath killed Colin. So whats stopping 50 Saths from kill THE ENTIRE ****ING GTVA IN A WEEK again?
Since they had freaky subspace stuff at the star, they used a new type of subspace portal to do something to the star, and many of them left through normal looking portals, it seems likely that Petrachs theory was based on sensor logs from Capella. I agree with him that some subspace tricky was afoot, because that had been signposted much earlier, and killing stars for fun can be eliminated as a possibility.
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I have no problem with any of that Pnakotus, I just have one question.
Who the hell is Colin and why was he killed by a Sath? I've played the entire campaign through several times and have never seen anyone named Colin. ;)
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Because they're evil. Pure, simple, plain evil.
I don't think there's anything more eerie & ever terrifying than hate without a pretence.
I'd rather they be the abstract "cosmic destroyers" than come up with some silly rational explanation for why they do what thet do. :nod:
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Originally posted by Pnakotus
While the 'nicking of into Greenland' theory is mere conjecture, everything else (by which I mean the 'Sh1v4ns aer t3h bada55es' theory) doesn't make sense. Killing stars isn't a regular Shivan thing, since they didn't pop GD. Deeper through the Knossos network also was not destroyed. The 'kill everyone' reason is stupid because Lucy killed Vasuda Prime by herself, and one Sath killed Colin. So whats stopping 50 Saths from kill THE ENTIRE ****ING GTVA IN A WEEK again?
They couldn't be bothered. If they're evil, then why look for a rational reason?
Or, maybe they intended to supernova every GTVA star, but couldn't thanks to the Nereid destroying the node from the Vega side.
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[q]As said By Stryke9 so long ago, but so hillariously as well:
Nah, I think this proves my theory that the Sathani are Shivan trailer homes. See, they really just wanted to make friends with the Terrans this whole time, but due to an unfortunate culture gap and some preliminary spy reports collected durign the Terran-Vasudan war, the Shivans figured our primary method of communication involved focusing high-density plasma charges into each other. Thus, Lucifer scout fleet showed up and transmitted the message "We come in peace", wiping out all nearby. Hurt and confused at the Terrans' and Vasudans' panicked flight, they followed the GTA fleet to Vasuda Prime. Knowing an important populated planet when they saw one, what subsequently ensued was the equivalent of thousands of years of Shivan history, science, and literature broken up into several easy-to-understand blasts... Thirty years later, the Shivans spot Terrans in their nebula. Curious as to what happened to their peace delegation, they accost the first fleet they see and bombard them with questions. The Terrans return fire, and, overjoyed that contact has finally been made, the Shivans mobilize their colony ships, ordering them to set up a permanent base around the nearest Terran star where Shivans and Terrans (and Vasudans, who the Shivans assumed were just more Terrans) could trade, communicate, and live in harmony. Up to the death of the Colossus, the Shivans maintained their good intentions, though they had to admit that maintaining good relations with the Terrans seemed to be getting an awful lot of them killed. It was only when the Terrans sealed off the first Capella jump node that the Shivans guessed that something was amiss. Slowly the idea formed that maybe we WEREN'T friendly, after all. Hurt by this possible breach of trust, the Shivans sent out one last delegate, headed on what they last knew as a route to the Sol system and the capitol of Terran government, housed in a Cain class executive transport. When diplomatic talks opened up prematurely and destroyed the Cain and the diplomat before a meeting, let alone consensus, could be achieved. Shocked and disgusted by the treachery of the Terrans, the Sathanas fleet blew up the Capella star in the universal signal for "farewell", which they hoped would eventually reach the remaining Terrans in other systems, and returned home, never to be seen by Terrans again.[/q]
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Umm....ham? :nervous:
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Originally posted by Pnakotus
While the 'nicking of into Greenland' theory is mere conjecture, everything else (by which I mean the 'Sh1v4ns aer t3h bada55es' theory) doesn't make sense. Killing stars isn't a regular Shivan thing, since they didn't pop GD. Deeper through the Knossos network also was not destroyed. The 'kill everyone' reason is stupid because Lucy killed Vasuda Prime by herself, and one Sath killed Colin. So whats stopping 50 Saths from kill THE ENTIRE ****ING GTVA IN A WEEK again?
Originally posted by Antares in The Shivan Manifesto
Throughout their incursion, the Shivans gained very little ground against the GTVA. The furthest-encroaching Shivan vessel was the original Sathanas, and it was destroyed in Capella--merely one jump from Gamma Draconis--by the GTVA Colossus. It is likely that the Shivans, in all their destructive fury, had never previously lost a vessel of that magnitude to an enemy. Since they were never able to advance any further than Capella (with the exception of a Shivan force that attacked the Vega-Capella node in the endgame), the Shivans could not know for certain just how many Colossus-class vessels the GTVA had in their ranks. For all they knew, a fleet of the mammoth vessels could have been waiting deep within GTVA territory, waiting to spring a trap on the advancing Shivan fleet. Faced with such uncertain opposition, the Shivans took the only course of action open to them:
They ran away. The Shivans were not attacking the GTVA, but retreating from it.[/b]
Makes sense to me
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The Shivan Ravana, however, managed to destroy multiple ships sent against it.
Also, when the GTVA first encountered the Sathanas, they didn't assume it was one of a vast fleet - why would the Shivans?
Finally, they almost certainly already knew the strength of the GTVA. They had, of course, a former high ranked admiral in their custody.
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I think the Terrans assumed the Sathanas was one of a kind merely because they only had one ship of that size. The Shivans, who had a whole fleet of Sathanas class ships, could have easily made the assumption that the Terrans had one too.
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True, but the Shivans are far more aware of the GTVAs size, military capacity and also the difficulties of developing such a large ship.
(The Terrans assumed they might face more Lucifers, though. That's why the Colossus was built......yet they didn't anticipate more Sathani)
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Originally posted by Aldo
The Shivan Ravana, however, managed to destroy multiple ships sent against it.
Also, when the GTVA first encountered the Sathanas, they didn't assume it was one of a vast fleet - why would the Shivans?
Finally, they almost certainly already knew the strength of the GTVA. They had, of course, a former high ranked admiral in their custody.
I think its safe too say that Shivans don't speak english so Admiral Bosch couldn't have told them the size of the GTVA, and although the Ravana was a pretty good ship it was destroyed by a bomber wing, and when the Shivans found a terran destroyer in terran territory (Carthage, in Gamma Draconis) they didn't send a Sath after it so they didn't think, "the aliens (GTVA) have sent there best ships to destroyer a puny destroyer, we'll kill 'em all with 3 destroyers!"
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
I think its safe too say that Shivans don't speak english so Admiral Bosch couldn't have told them the size of the GTVA,
Have you completely forgotten what ETAK was for? :D
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No, he's just remembered it probably wasn't of a portable size.
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ETAK was left on the Iceni.... But who knows...maby Bosch had a mini-portable version...
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ETAK was for sending signals to the Shivans, not for translation.
It would be just like someone making noise to attract your attention and then you go up to them and they're speaking Japanese*
[edit]
Originally posted by ngtm1r
No, he's just remembered it probably wasn't of a portable size.
Why couldn't it be of a portable size, Laptop hard drives in 200-300 years will probably be about 3 or 4 Terabytes! But ETAK only sent signals to the Shivans, not communicate[/edit]
*If you know Japanese replace Japanese with a language you don't know
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
I think its safe too say that Shivans don't speak english so Admiral Bosch couldn't have told them the size of the GTVA, and although the Ravana was a pretty good ship it was destroyed by a bomber wing, and when the Shivans found a terran destroyer in terran territory (Carthage, in Gamma Draconis) they didn't send a Sath after it so they didn't think, "the aliens (GTVA) have sent there best ships to destroyer a puny destroyer, we'll kill 'em all with 3 destroyers!"
I think the Shivans are somewhat good at working with technology, don't you?
'sides which, who said they'd speak to him? Shove an interface device straight into his brain, more like. Any minor problems can be ironed out beforehand by testing on the other NTF crew & command staff captured.
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they don't necessarily have good scientific technology, just Uber awesome military technology, and even if they had good science they still don't know how the Human Being works so it would take them a good while to work out what is what and how to "Shove an interface straight into his brain" and make the interface decode his memory.
Also the Shivans don't know Bosch used to work with the GTVA because they've only seen him attack the GTVA.
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I would have collapsed the Gamma Draconis jump node after destroying the first juggernaut (and evacuating all forces back to Capella, of course).
Common sense.
STUPID COMMAND!! :mad:
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
they don't necessarily have good scientific technology, just Uber awesome military technology, and even if they had good science they still don't know how the Human Being works so it would take them a good while to work out what is what and how to "Shove an interface straight into his brain" and make the interface decode his memory.
Also the Shivans don't know Bosch used to work with the GTVA because they've only seen him attack the GTVA.
1/ they almost certainly do have good scientific tech to develop military tech. You can't manufacture a fleet of 5km warships without some degree of scientific knowledge
2/ they took more than enough humans from the Iceni to learn biology.
3/ They are most likely familiar with cybernetic technology and thus are well equipped to tailor a neural device to a human brain.. excluding that they don't have nano-technology able to explore and adapt to a host
4/ Shivans are aware of Terran ship specifications and would have recognised the Iceni as being of Terran materials and design. On the few instances the GTVA encountered the Iceni when the Shivans were present, the Iceni was never attacked - the Colossus' beams failed when it entered the knossos, and the Vasudans weren't able to attack it either
5/ There's no way of knowing what information Bosch transmitted to the Shivans - it could have contained biological information on humans.
6/ Bosch may have been a willing participant in the whole operation. For all we know, he ordered his own crew killed and believed Shivan cybernetic technology could breed a race of new 'higher' humans, with himself as the first.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
1/ they almost certainly do have good scientific tech to develop military tech. You can't manufacture a fleet of 5km warships without some degree of scientific knowledge
2/ they took more than enough humans from the Iceni to learn biology.
3/ They are most likely familiar with cybernetic technology and thus are well equipped to tailor a neural device to a human brain.. excluding that they don't have nano-technology able to explore and adapt to a host
4/ Shivans are aware of Terran ship specifications and would have recognised the Iceni as being of Terran materials and design. On the few instances the GTVA encountered the Iceni when the Shivans were present, the Iceni was never attacked - the Colossus' beams failed when it entered the knossos, and the Vasudans weren't able to attack it either
5/ There's no way of knowing what information Bosch transmitted to the Shivans - it could have contained biological information on humans.
6/ Bosch may have been a willing participant in the whole operation. For all we know, he ordered his own crew killed and believed Shivan cybernetic technology could breed a race of new 'higher' humans, with himself as the first.
1/ They have good Physics, Chemistry knowledge, but not necessarily good Biology, especially human biology.
2/ It would still take too much time if they thought there was a colossus fleet bearing down on them
3/ They don't know where the human brain is. See Also 2/
4/ They probably have long range sensors which can differentiate between ships
5/ The ETAK device is not a translator as I said before:
ETAK was for sending signals to the Shivans, not for translation.
It would be just like someone making noise to attract your attention and then you go up to them and they're speaking Japanese
6/ I doubt he would order his loyal crew to be slaughtered, and as LT. Rusk said "They took him away with Gibson and Sarno and about a dozen others" that doesn't sound like they went willingly!
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
ETAK was for sending signals to the Shivans, not for translation.
It would be just like someone making noise to attract your attention and then you go up to them and they're speaking Japanese.
Sorry but I just don't buy that.
Our encounter with the Shivans has vindicated all I have fought for these past thirty years. My life's work has been achieved. I have created the technology to enable communication between the Shivans and the human race. Although our first contact was rudimentary and crude, I have initiated the first phase of a new alliance with the destroyers.
That doesn't sound like the shivan equivalent of a bird call to me.
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
1/ They have good Physics, Chemistry knowledge, but not necessarily good Biology, especially human biology.
2/ It would still take too much time if they thought there was a colossus fleet bearing down on them
3/ They don't know where the human brain is. See Also 2/
4/ They probably have long range sensors which can differentiate between ships
5/ The ETAK device is not a translator as I said before:
ETAK was for sending signals to the Shivans, not for translation.
It would be just like someone making noise to attract your attention and then you go up to them and they're speaking Japanese
6/ I doubt he would order his loyal crew to be slaughtered, and as LT. Rusk said "They took him away with Gibson and Sarno and about a dozen others" that doesn't sound like they went willingly!
1/ Of course they know biology - they'd have to be more efficient killers, never mind being able to fuse their own organic parts with cybernetics
2/ You have no way of knowing that, or if they even though there was a Colossus fleet. They probably wouldn't have left the nebula if they honestly though that, having already lost on Sath to the Colossus.
3/Simple - point of greatest bloodflow. Not to mention that they had more than 1 human to experiment upon.
4/ And your point is? They know how to ID a terran ship. Enough said.
5/ No proof of that whatsoever. As Kara points out, Bosch specifically stated they had established communication.
6/ a) Bosch views his loyal crew as "mindless cattle", along with the rest of the NTF, IIRC
b) Took does not imply force. It just means they went away on a Shivan vessel, nothing more, nothing less. Having had to survive a massacre, Rusks' recollection would be somewhat altered. Bosch also explicitly states his willingness to go with the Shivans, anyway.
c) We don't know who fired first when the Shivans boarded.
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Shivans are fairly scary-looking folks, and I don't find it entirely out of the question that an Iceni crewer panicked and shot at them.
The Iceni crew were not cattle to Bosch. This was his ship, his crew. Commanders feel a certain attachment to such things, particularly when they've commanded them in combat for some time, as Bosch has with the Iceni. One gets an impression that the Iceni crew was hand-picked by Bosch.
I think it was a colossal miscommunication. Panicked crewer fires on Shivan, Shivans assume all Terrans aboard Iceni they cannot identify from the ETAK transmissions are hostile and treat them accordingly.
ETAK was meant to transmit Shivan comm messages. How the Shivans communicate in person isn't totally clear, so it's quite possible they couldn't talk to Bosch. As to cybernetics: Bosch thinks in English. Shivans think in Shivan. Do we see a problem here...?
On the other hand, it seems awfully unlikely Bosch would plan to go with the Shivans unless he had figured out a way to talk to them so they'd understand, in person.
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How the Shivans communicate in person isn't totally clear, so it's quite possible they couldn't talk to Bosch. As to cybernetics: Bosch thinks in English. Shivans think in Shivan. Do we see a problem here...?
No problem atall. Memories aren't stored in any particular language in the brain, it all resolves down to a basic structure of neurons, etc.
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To understand someone's thinking, you must understand the terms they think in, I would imagine. Basically, thoughts come down to imagery, and the Shivans, being about as different as it gets from Humans, use drastically different imagery. It's not quite as simple plug-and-play. You have to account for the differing pyschology, not just physiology, to make sense of his thinking.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
To understand someone's thinking, you must understand the terms they think in, I would imagine. Basically, thoughts come down to imagery, and the Shivans, being about as different as it gets from Humans, use drastically different imagery. It's not quite as simple plug-and-play. You have to account for the differing pyschology, not just physiology, to make sense of his thinking.
If the Shivans are as advanced as they appear to be, that shouldn't be a problem to them. For example, use nanotechnology that is able to learn as it moves through the brain, possibly using external stimuli to test how the brain operates.
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
Makes sense to me
Makes NO SENSE AT ALL to me. They lose a single ship... and then utterly whale on poor Colin, destroying the largest threat in less than 10 seconds. Why run away? Why not kill every single member of the GTVA? The Shivans plainly had the ascendancy. Unless they're complete morons or pussies (like S8472 from ST) they were simply ignoring the GTVA, not running away. You don't run away when nothing the enemy has can stop you.
Frankly, you could make a case that a sensibly-captained *single* Sath could destroy the GTVA with a bit of subspace hopping. What are they going to do? Build another Colossus? Lose destroyers by the truckload to the forward beams? Oh, I hear you cry 'Get behind them!'. So, the Sath will jump out, come back later. Or maybe, shock, TURN. Just because the [V] mission designers were idiots (they turned off beams for most ships in Their Finest Hour II, and that was so stupid it burned) doesn't mean Saths can't maneuveur. *sigh*
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:wtf:
I walk away from the thread for a few hours, and i come back to Pnakotus *****ing up a storm whereas everyone else was starting to be nice and agreeable.
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Who's Colin? :confused:
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
Who's Colin? :confused:
I'm pretty sure he means the Colossus :p.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
1/ they almost certainly do have good scientific tech to develop military tech. You can't manufacture a fleet of 5km warships without some degree of scientific knowledge.
I have a problem with this statement. I've recently been reading up on Warhammer 40k. The Space Marines don't have a whole lot of technical knowledge and yet they are the supreme fighting force in the galaxy. Granted the Machine Cult does a lot of the tech stuff, but the whole Terran Empire seems to be stuck, building and maintaining their tech by ritual instead of actual understanding, there is very little innovation. The Shivans could be the same way, stuck in a loop of ritual instead of actually understanding why their stuff works.
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Zentraedi? They have the weapons, the have the technology. But they don't understand how it works. They can't fix it and they can't make it. It was given to them by their masters, and they know how to operate it effectively, but that's all they know.
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Originally posted by Pnakotus
Oh, I hear you cry 'Get behind them!'. So, the Sath will jump out, come back later. Or maybe, shock, TURN. Just because the [V] mission designers were idiots (they turned off beams for most ships in Their Finest Hour II, and that was so stupid it burned) doesn't mean Saths can't maneuveur. *sigh*
[V] didn't do that by accident..:wtf:
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Agreed
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Also, agreed. It was a balancing/gameplay thing. But it did bug me when the Stalwart's beams didn't fire (they also changed all its flak guns to terran turrets).
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Originally posted by Pnakotus
Makes NO SENSE AT ALL to me. They lose a single ship... and then utterly whale on poor Colin, destroying the largest threat in less than 10 seconds. Why run away? Why not kill every single member of the GTVA? The Shivans plainly had the ascendancy. Unless they're complete morons or pussies (like S8472 from ST) they were simply ignoring the GTVA, not running away. You don't run away when nothing the enemy has can stop you.
Why are you assuming that the Shivans priority was the GTVA?
Originally posted by Liberator
I have a problem with this statement. I've recently been reading up on Warhammer 40k. The Space Marines don't have a whole lot of technical knowledge and yet they are the supreme fighting force in the galaxy. Granted the Machine Cult does a lot of the tech stuff, but the whole Terran Empire seems to be stuck, building and maintaining their tech by ritual instead of actual understanding, there is very little innovation. The Shivans could be the same way, stuck in a loop of ritual instead of actually understanding why their stuff works.
a) I'm not talking about developing new technology, I'm talking about existing Shivan technology
b) I don't think Warhammer 40k can really be used as an argument, given that AFAIK it's based on an artificial history which is completely divergent from actual history (i.e. magic and ogres and whatnot). Whereas FS' history is closer to actual history up to the present day.
(That said, the idea of the Shivans maintaining their existing technology in a ritualistic way, or even being engaged in a holy war for subspace is interesting)
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Why are you assuming that the Shivans priority was the GTVA?
Indeed. GTVA is like small bug in galaxy, and Shivans are far more powerful and far more bigger race and GTVA is not even threat to shivans
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Yes, and as its been said, The Shivans are mearly a simptom of a larger problem...
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Yes....yes....over-inflation plagues the Shivans. With the demand for more Sathanas ever-rising, costs raise astronomically.
The GTVA is nothing compared to the evil that is inflation...
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Why are you assuming that the Shivans priority was the GTVA?
a) I'm not talking about developing new technology, I'm talking about existing Shivan technology
b) I don't think Warhammer 40k can really be used as an argument, given that AFAIK it's based on an artificial history which is completely divergent from actual history (i.e. magic and ogres and whatnot). Whereas FS' history is closer to actual history up to the present day.
(That said, the idea of the Shivans maintaining their existing technology in a ritualistic way, or even being engaged in a holy war for subspace is interesting)
I was only using W40K as an example of a situation where you have some ultimate badasses who don't have a clue as to how their tools work. The Zentraedi analogy is also similar.
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Most likely, When the sathanas activated there subspace distortion field,(green), This might have reacted with the suns nuclear properties somehow activated a kind of super subspace distortion, this type of distortion might make A kind of wormhole. Linking maybe the star to someplace they might want to go. That is why they could have jumped out. See the star was emenating a field that would inhibit subspace travel, normally it wouldn't. The shivan fleet was making the star change properties to inhibit it. Possibly to channel it into a supersubspace node. Possibly to send them home. THat is why 2 were left . They were probably drones left there to keep the doorway open long enough for the others to jump out. Notice in gameplay that you couldn't jump out unless you were in the actual jumpnode. This was the only place that enough gravitation pull through subspace was not disrupted. Otherwise, outside of the node. you could not lock onto the gravitation field of the node.
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The Shivans have no idea of the size of the GTVA, when the Sath jumped into GTVA Space it had its beams disabled then "Colin" wiped the floor with it! The sHivan's were scared, they had lost there most powerful warship (or 1 of there most powerful anyway, seen as we don't know the size of the Shivan Armada)They had probably never lost such a powerful vessel to an enemy and were on the Hop.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
1/ Of course they know biology - they'd have to be more efficient killers, never mind being able to fuse their own organic parts with cybernetics
2/ You have no way of knowing that, or if they even thought there was a Colossus fleet. They probably wouldn't have left the nebula if they honestly thought that, having already lost on Sath to the Colossus.
3/Simple - point of greatest bloodflow. Not to mention that they had more than 1 human to experiment upon.
4/ And your point is? They know how to ID a terran ship. Enough said.
5/ No proof of that whatsoever. As Kara points out, Bosch specifically stated they had established communication.
6/ a) Bosch views his loyal crew as "mindless cattle", along with the rest of the NTF, IIRC
b) Took does not imply force. It just means they went away on a Shivan vessel, nothing more, nothing less. Having had to survive a massacre, Rusks' recollection would be somewhat altered. Bosch also explicitly states his willingness to go with the Shivans, anyway.
c) We don't know who fired first when the Shivans boarded.
1a\ You have no way of knowing the Shivans put the cybernetics on themselves, It could have been a different species
b\ That is Shivan biology, not Human Biology, that's like a vet operating on a person
2\ They wanted to use CApella because it appears to be a bigger star than the Nebula and Gamma Draconis stars
3\ The point of greatest bloodflow is the heart, and the interface would not be like plugging a USB cable in
4\ My point is the Shivans would have seen the Iceni attacking GTVA ships
5\ Bosch specifically stated that the "Communication" was rudimentary and crude, I.E. Bird Call
6\ ...OK you've got me there
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I just came to a thought: the Ancients once said that the Shivans were also the "Cosmic preservers".
Perhaps that blowing the system was to keep someone (or something) that could destroy the GTVA out. All the times that the Shivans had attacked the GTVA were more like testing them, sort of like how a pernt would test a child?
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You do know that idea has been floated, like, a 100 times already right ?
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
1a\ You have no way of knowing the Shivans put the cybernetics on themselves, It could have been a different species
b\ That is Shivan biology, not Human Biology, that's like a vet operating on a person
2\ They wanted to use CApella because it appears to be a bigger star than the Nebula and Gamma Draconis stars
3\ The point of greatest bloodflow is the heart, and the interface would not be like plugging a USB cable in
4\ My point is the Shivans would have seen the Iceni attacking GTVA ships
5\ Bosch specifically stated that the "Communication" was rudimentary and crude, I.E. Bird Call
6\ ...OK you've got me there
1/a) so? No way of knowing the converse, and I believe it's more likely that the Shivans created themselves than someone else
b) Or, myabe you mean like a vet who can operate on cats and dogs?
2/ Again, no proof whatsoever. We don't even know for certain the comparative size of those stars, let alone why the Shivans would pick one/.
3/ Brain - consumes more resources than any other part of the body. Not to mention that could easily trace activity through the nervous system to the brain. The Shivans have human test subjects, remember?
4/ My point is that they did not see the Iceni attack GTVA ships in any mission, and not any human ships specifically. Not only that, there's no record I can remember of in any command briefing that mentions the GTVA encountering the Iceni once (in the nebula in particular).
5/ Bird call is not a communication - communication requires an exchange of information. Rudimentary and crude refers to a tentative, simplistic exchange, due to differences in language and perception - like a new speaker trying to talk in a foreign language. Of the level of "Me friend. You friend?".
Besides which, if it had been a rudimentary 'bird call', how would Bosch have known that the Shivans were sending transports?
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Let's keep things simple and tell me if that makes sense:
1) Maths == universal communication mean... no matter what you speak, maths can be always understood.
2) Computers: Terrans have them and we can think shivan have something that does more or less the same job.
3) Any computer can emulate another computer, so two computers, if adequately programmed, can "talk" through rudimentary means as pulses...
4) do you remember Bosh had access to shivan tech, right? It's not like he was going there completely blind...
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Bosch had access to Shivan tech? Since when?
He helped blow up what Shivan tech remained from The Great War during the Hades Rebellion.
Edit: Does the Iceni fire on you in "Return to Babel"? If it fired on Vasudan ships, then it's not too hard to deduce that the Shivans would have known Bosch was different from the rest of them. Considering they have ample evidence that Vasudans and Terrans are allied.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Besides which, if it had been a rudimentary 'bird call', how would Bosch have known that the Shivans were sending transports?
Maybe he didn't
We're not going to agree as there isn't enough evidence
*offers truce*
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
Maybe he didn't
We're not going to agree as there isn't enough evidence
*offers truce*
Er...sorry, but he did.
As I make this final entry my crew is preparing to scuttle the Iceni and board the shivan transports. We embark on a miraculous journey towards a new horizon. This tragic era of hatred and misunderstanding between our races is over. On this day, for the first time in my life, I am filled with joy.
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Oh yeah, forgot about that :o
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
The Shivans have no idea of the size of the GTVA, when the Sath jumped into GTVA Space it had its beams disabled then "Colin" wiped the floor with it! The sHivan's were scared, they had lost there most powerful warship (or 1 of there most powerful anyway, seen as we don't know the size of the Shivan Armada)They had probably never lost such a powerful vessel to an enemy and were on the Hop.
So to recap, after being totally demoralised, their fleet terrified and disorganised, and with offensive action out of the question, they executed coordinated attacks on all military ships in Capella, maintained an attack on all escaping convoys, matched pound-for-pound GTVA deployment in cruisers and corvettes, and FOUGHT THE GTVA TO THE BLOODY DEATH. All this while messing with the star, sacrificing many ships in their efforts, whatever it was they were doing.
Do I have to point out that AFTER the inital Sathy was destroyed, the Colossus was sliced and diced in a hilariously brief time, the GTVA was running away as fast as it could, and the deployment of Operation:Close the Door would make it PAINFULLY obvious to the Shivans that the GTVA felt it was totally screwed. All this after being struck dumb by the loss of a single ship, sent in with no support, which continued its attack after being crippled. I rate the operation as a success; it drew the heaviest GTVA combatant to the front line where it was destroyed in short order. If they'd have five Colins, they ALL would have been bought to the front, and ALL destroyed. Its called a draw, and it worked.
Whats the support for the idea the Shivans were scared? Well... they DID lose a Sath. But they lose potentially dozens in the operation at the star, and that doesn't really make sense if one was a titanic, world-shaking loss, because they were hardly likely to lose that many Sathanas' in the entire 'Kill The GTVA' campaign. I agree that the GTVA was secondary to the Shivans, that much is obvious, but its also obvious that the Shivans don't care about losses. I wouldn't either if I could casually deploy 100-odd juggernaughts to some wacky backwater for a Lovecraftian ritual.
So, the Shivans could have wiped the floor with the GTVA, they KNEW they could have wiped the floor with the GTVA, the GTVA knew they would end up wiping the floor, and the whole evacuation, the destruction of the node, the desperate retreat, they all let the Shivans know this, because none would have happened if the GTVA thought they had a chance. But the Shivans didn't care; they had better things to do.
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Of course, maybe the Shivans weren't scared of the GTVA, but something else. :nervous:
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Yeah, they are fleeing from endless swarms of smurfs ;)
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Hey, the Smurfs are true evil.
And no, it doesn't make it obvious to the Shivans. The GTVA (or as far as the Shivans know the GTVA) has one Knossos. Why not more? Why not blow the node with a Knossos set up on the far side so that the Shivans couldn't use it, but the GTVA could use a Knossos to prop it open for a counterstrike?
Even assuming the Shivans have Bosch, they may not believe him. After all, they may conclude that Bosch is insane. There's plenty of evidence for that. How exactly he thought Shivans could ever get along with humans is a mystery to us, and it's probably a mystery to the Shivans too.
Of course, if the Shivans are a hive mind, there is also the possiblity they don't understand the concepts of "lying" or "insane". Which could bring us to another interesting possiblity: it's all Bosch fault. Literally.
Bosch, once among the Shivans, discovers that they cannot be swayed from their xenocidal course. So he gives them a load of absolute garbage about the GTVA's strength. Bosch has always been in this, at least in his own head, for the good of the human race. The Shivans won't stop until they've killed everybody, so to save humanity, Bosch lies. The Colossus is merely one of a thousand such ships. The fleet the Shivans have fought so far is nothing but a patrolling border taskforce.
Consequently, the Shivans decide they are in way the heck over their heads and blow up Capella as a means of either sealing themselves off from this superpower or escaping it.
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I still think that the Shivans are less interested in killing us than they are forcing us to improve our technology and tactics so we(the GTVA) can either join them in their war with the Others or replace them as the Destroyers(how's that for irony)
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*nods in approval at ngtm1r* :nod:
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Hmm, a pretty costly way, isn't it?
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Better to lose a few Sathani now then all of them later? Or, from Bosch's point of view, better to lose Capella now then all of humanity later.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
[/B]
My thats a lot of unsupported conjecture. Hive mind? Boschs capture? GTVA as a superpower? I mean, really. Want to prove Bosch is even alive? Didn't think so. And why wouldn't they listen to the words of some loon instead of reports from the front? Probably because they're a hive mind, right?
Doubtless they recieved reports from Lucy fleet (remember, they're a hive mind now :rolls:) which would have indicated average fleet size, tech level, etc. They also know all the ships sent through the Knossos were pulled back or TOTALLY DESTROYED BY A SINGLE SATH. The loss of Colin signalled the end of GTVA attempts to hold the Shivans back at the entry node, and lets not even talk about the 'Saths are ignoring her' part of the mission. The Shivans could hardly miss the headlong retreat engaged in by the GTVA after barely any combat with them, and they must have known about the node-busting trick.
So lets think outside the box. The GTVA send in their dumbass stealth fighter to gain info on the Sath. Why couldn't the Shivans be doing the same thing with the initial Sath incursion? As I said, if they'd ACTUALLY CARED about that Sath, it would have turned around. Whenever I do it, its lost all four beams and both front flaks. It would be destroyed by the ships already encountered in the nebula. The first Sath doesn't care, and just plows on. You could doubtless concoct MORE unsupported conjecture for this, perhaps they were trying to fix them, and didn't bother thinking that a pair of Cvs would've killed their hugely valuable Sath that they just couldn't bear to lose? Maybe their ALIENS and don't plan ahead like humans do?
This whole 'maybe the GTVA are hardcore' line of thinking is totally unsupportable. To be honest, since they Shivans largely ignored the GTVA, its also a red herring. We all know the ships around Capella could have destroyed the GTVA in a week, and the GTVA running away like pussies and desperately defending a few thousand people in transports doesn't speak well for the 'trillions of uber humans' idea. I mean how stupid would the GTVA have to be to not deploy all the other Colins, or GOSH all the uber ships bigger than her? Fleet comp was exposed by the blockade; a few cruisers, a few Cvs, and Colin. Absolutely nothing the Shivans can't handle(in seconds, no less). But if you can point to a single action that supports this theory, go ahead. We should not mistake the Shivan preoccupation with whatever attribute of the Capella star interested them for fear of the GTVA, although that is the most amusing idea for FS3 I've ever seen. 'Oh, just off a Sath and they'll run. Oh, wait...' For that to work, you must assume the Shivans are stupid, that they think the GTVA is ALSO stupid, and figure that the 'I don't need my beam cannons, I'll 'ave ya' Shivans weren't up for a campaign against the GTVA.
Anyway, the Sath can hardly be a kill attributed to Colin. Colin did nothing; a pair of Cvs would have done just as well. 10 Cvs would have done better and been cheaper. Alpha 1 crippled her, and he did that before it even jumped.
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Nice quote, by the way.
My thats a lot of unsupported conjecture. Hive mind? Boschs capture? GTVA as a superpower? I mean, really. Want to prove Bosch is even alive? Didn't think so. And why wouldn't they listen to the words of some loon instead of reports from the front? Probably because they're a hive mind, right?
I offer only conjecture, as that is all that can be offered. I would point out, however, that Bosch was alive the last time anyone saw him and being taken away by the Shivans in a living condition. Why bother to take him alive and kill him later unless you intend to ask questions? Don't tell me for experimentation: the only experimentation the Shivans would be interested in is how to most effectively kill a human, and you can learn that by studying the physiology of a corpse.
As for the hive mind, go check your FS2 Tech Room Intelligence. The canon says that's the best guess, so that would be... the best guess .
And your reports will be dealt with at a later point in this post.
Doubtless they recieved reports from Lucy fleet (remember, they're a hive mind now :rolls which would have indicated average fleet size, tech level, etc. They also know all the ships sent through the Knossos were pulled back or TOTALLY DESTROYED BY A SINGLE SATH. The loss of Colin signalled the end of GTVA attempts to hold the Shivans back at the entry node, and lets not even talk about the 'Saths are ignoring her' part of the mission. The Shivans could hardly miss the headlong retreat engaged in by the GTVA after barely any combat with them, and they must have known about the node-busting trick.
Doubtless they didn't hear anything from the Lucifer fleet, because if they could the remaing Shivans in the Lucifer fleet would have called for backup when the Lucifer died. A hive mind is not always in contact with all its members. Go look at an ant colony sometime.
They also know that all the ships were destroyed or pulled back. This tells them nothing, really, except that the GTVA did not have the forces at hand to deal with the Sathanas. That does not mean that the GTVA doesn't have a thousand Colossus-class ships somewhere. It just means they weren't readily available. More to the point, the GTVA could have dealt with the Sathanas. Recall the purpose of the mission right after "Monster in the Mist". You were trying to lure the Sathanas out so it could be destroyed by several GTVA destroyers. It didn't work, but that does not mean it could not have. The Shivans simply didn't take the bait.
Headlong retreat? Go play the Main Campaign again. The GTVA fleet was all but wiped out in Capella, that's mentioned several times. They didn't retreat. They pulled back to friendly territory rather then fight on their opponent's ground, which makes good tactical sense. Then they stood and fought, and mostly died. They were buying time. Time to evacuate Capella, which makes good sense no matter how you look at it, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be buying time for something else.
So lets think outside the box. The GTVA send in their dumbass stealth fighter to gain info on the Sath. Why couldn't the Shivans be doing the same thing with the initial Sath incursion? As I said, if they'd ACTUALLY CARED about that Sath, it would have turned around. Whenever I do it, its lost all four beams and both front flaks. It would be destroyed by the ships already encountered in the nebula. The first Sath doesn't care, and just plows on. You could doubtless concoct MORE unsupported conjecture for this, perhaps they were trying to fix them, and didn't bother thinking that a pair of Cvs would've killed their hugely valuable Sath that they just couldn't bear to lose? Maybe their ALIENS and don't plan ahead like humans do?
You amuse me. The first Sathanas saw about...10, 15 minutes worth of Capella at 25m/s? That's zilch. They couldn't learn crapdoodle from that. No Shivan ships got further then Capella until the decision to blow the star had been made.
Recall "High Noon". Recall that the Colossus parked itself stationary near the node. The Sathanas jumped in. It probably still had a beam cannon or two working. The Shivans had never seen this kind of ship before, but hadn't been all that impressed with GTVA ships so far.
Then, holy crap, those damned Bakhas have taken out what's left of Sathanas' main battery and it's getting pounded on. At this point it has moved away from the node somewhat. Going back means stopping and turning around, then waiting for their subspace drives to recharge. All the while the Colossus is merrily vaporizing huge chunks of their hull. Uh-uh. Once in-system in Capella without a functional main battery and subspace drives recharging still, their only option was to make a run for it in normal space. That's what they did.
As to the alien bit, I have the perfect quote for that. "Any race capable of building spacecraft is not stupid ."
This whole 'maybe the GTVA are hardcore' line of thinking is totally unsupportable. To be honest, since they Shivans largely ignored the GTVA, its also a red herring. We all know the ships around Capella could have destroyed the GTVA in a week, and the GTVA running away like pussies and desperately defending a few thousand people in transports doesn't speak well for the 'trillions of uber humans' idea. I mean how stupid would the GTVA have to be to not deploy all the other Colins, or GOSH all the uber ships bigger than her? Fleet comp was exposed by the blockade; a few cruisers, a few Cvs, and Colin. Absolutely nothing the Shivans can't handle(in seconds, no less). But if you can point to a single action that supports this theory, go ahead. We should not mistake the Shivan preoccupation with whatever attribute of the Capella star interested them for fear of the GTVA, although that is the most amusing idea for FS3 I've ever seen. 'Oh, just off a Sath and they'll run. Oh, wait...' For that to work, you must assume the Shivans are stupid, that they think the GTVA is ALSO stupid, and figure that the 'I don't need my beam cannons, I'll 'ave ya' Shivans weren't up for a campaign against the GTVA.
I think I covered this already, but I'll go over it again just to make sure you understand. The GTVA fought a delaying action. They were evacuating Capella, which makes perfect sense even if they don't plan on blowing the nodes. Otherwise they'd have to use up ships to defend the civvies on a more permanent basis. Just because they were buying time for one obvious thing does not preclude the presence of another purpose. You've constructed a logical fallacy for yourself by assuming one precludes the other. Yes, we know that the GTVA didn't have them. The Shivans don't. They can't.
I've explained this one too. Quite simply, if they have a fleet that huge, they must have an area of space equally huge. And that fleet is spread out over that huge area of space. It takes time to get the fleet together. 80+ Juggernauts isn't something to laugh at even when you have a thousand of them yourself. Sending a fleet in piecemeal is folly, and the GTVA has demonstrated that they do in fact understand basic tactics time and again. They know better then to engage with an inferior force, certainly the Shivans have seen that.
I'm giving the Shivans credit for brains here, in case you're missing the point. Quite a bit of brains, in fact, with better strategic thinking then quite a few humans have demonstrated.
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Back to the Sathanes, if I was Petrach i would just station about 10 destroyers with loads of escort at each exit point of Capella and then if a Sathanas jumps out of the node about 40 beam cannons hit it and it goes Boom!
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What makes you think they even had 10 destroyers available for that?
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GTVA is like paper wall to Shivans
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Originally posted by aldo_14
What makes you think they even had 10 destroyers available for that?
Hate to say it but they would need 20-30 destroyers depending on the value of Gamma Draconis. But there are 21+ systems in the GTVA and 10 of them are probably major systems, so every major system must have a destroyer or 2 and systems like Vasuda, Beta Aquilae, Capella (although many would have been destroyed by the Sath Fleet) and Delta serpentis would probably have 4 or 5 flying about.
Course It would take a bit of time to get them to Vega and Epsilon Pegasi but Mjolnirs could be used until the destroyers got there.
Of course this is all my opinion so no 6-pronged attacks please :)
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NTF severly depleted than number, and you may not have the time to put them all in a place...
Plus there is something not really wise into putting all eggs into one basket...
Even with 10 destroyers around a sath is still capable to fry at least one of them before going down...
And sinnce GTVA had less than 80 destroyers you can easily figure how ineffective it would have been.
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Yes but the GTVA could put the destroyers ""Behind"" the jump node so when the sath comes in it doesn't have time to turn and fry the GTVA destroyers
You may not have time to put them all in one place
Which is why i said you could use Mjolnirs (and lots of them :devil: ) :)
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Ever tried doing it in FRED?
Unless you sexp the AI the rear LRED will hurt really bad before you kill the sath...
I'd better place a meson bomb on the node entrance with a lot of fighters around to protect it...
Once the sath jumps you detonate the bomb and then call bombers to finish the work...
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Just park a Leviathan hulk with a pair or so of meson bombs stuffed inside in the node. The Leviathan hull punches a hole in the hull plating so the meson bombs' full force gets into the Sathanas' innards.
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It takes 2 Mesons to take out a Sath.
But I agree that putting 10 destroyers and a score of corvettes behind the node is the best was to do it.
Due to it's size, only one Sath can use the node at once. Before the next one can jump in, the first one needs to get some distance, or it will get rammed. It can't turn and fire on the fleet for the same reason (and it wouldn't live to turn anyway.)
Actually, the best way would be for the whole fleet to concetrate on the engines. If they do not destroy the Sath with the first salvo, they will disable it nad block the node for the second one that enters....
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Remember that the Meson bomb was experimental. The GTVA probably had barely enough to fill the hulls of the two Orions.
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And also remember that a fleet behind a node wouldn't be too effective, since the sath takes a full 3.5k to come to a stop... Also remember that something in the node when it arrives will have adverse effects, since something would be trying to occupy the space something else has... Possibly the effect of rendering the meson useless...
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most beams have a range from 4000-6000m it would suffice.
and they don't have to be directly behing, they can be above, below, to the left and to the right.
Once it jumps in and moves 3.5k away, they can shoot it in the behind.
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Do jump nodes have a fixed vector in which ships come out?
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Basicly yes...they are like tunnles, having two ends.
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Originally posted by karajorma
Remember that the Meson bomb was experimental. The GTVA probably had barely enough to fill the hulls of the two Orions.
And if you think about the size of the thing, surely they didn't need a lot to fill the Orions?
Actually, someone screengrab the relevant ani and count, I'm sure it shows the actual bombs.
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screw meson bombs, use nukes they seem in real life more powerful (50 km diameter adverage) or instead around 2000 bombers, they would rip the sath fleet to shreads.
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nukes in space = no good
What makes nukes powerful is their effect inside the atmosphere, creating a powerful shockwave, yada yada yada...
...and I doubt the entire GTVA military forces possessed 2000 bombers...
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Originally posted by GoulMeister
screw meson bombs, use nukes they seem in real life more powerful (50 km diameter adverage) or instead around 2000 bombers, they would rip the sath fleet to shreads.
Nope. FS2 ships laugh at standard nukes. The topic has been done to death so just do a search if you want but to give you an idea how wrong that statement was the Harbinger is a Fusion bomb surrounded by 3 salted fission bombs and has a yield of 5000Mt (much stronger than the biggest fusion bombs ever made)
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Originally posted by GoulMeister
instead around 2000 bombers, they would rip the sath fleet to shreads.
The shivans have more bombers fighters than the GTVA. WAAAAY more.
Also, for you guys suggesting the Fleet ambushing a sathanas tactic, I'll break it down:
BGreens and BVas type beams have an effective range of 4000m. These are the standard heavy weapons of all GTVA destroyers.
The BFReds have an effective range of 7200. Head on, a single Sathanas could absolutely obliterate any Battlegroup the GTVA could muster before they could even return fire. And if it warped in the fleet behind it? A destroyer couldn't successfully give chase to a Juggernaut, and Cvs and Cruisers would get blown apart by the rear LRed.
Also, I find it really hard to believe that some of you guys can think that after one full scale war against the GTVA, the shivans would know absolutely **** about they're capabilities. What are the odds, I ask you, that (if they knew nothing about the GTA or PVN) they would immediately target and attempt to bombard the two homewords of the Terrans and Vasudans? That suggests, at the very LEAST, that they know most of the extent of the GTA/PVN empires.
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Yeah, the Harpoon has something like a 50kt warhead. Nukes are only any good when there's an atmosphere to propogate their heat dispersion in a violent manner.
As for the shivans attempting to bombard the homeworlds of both races in FS1, if you'll recall it took the Shivans some time to figure out exactly which planet was the Terran homeworld. They were in Delta Serpentis for at least 2-3 missions before they started making their way toward earth. And FS1 era T-V ships were not very good at slowing the Shivan advance to buy the homeworlds any time.
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2-3 missions doesn't seem like a long time. Why didn't they just reduce every singel Terran/Vasudan planet they came across into a smoldering ball of fire, if they had no previous knowledge of their targets? Or, a better question, how did they find out about the location of Earth and Vasuda Prime, if they knew so little about us?
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*slap*
Look them up next time...
http://home.att.net/~clay.h/fs2/beamfaq.htm#BEAMTABLE
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*SLAP*
I did. Check again.
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Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
2-3 missions doesn't seem like a long time. Why didn't they just reduce every singel Terran/Vasudan planet they came across into a smoldering ball of fire, if they had no previous knowledge of their targets? Or, a better question, how did they find out about the location of Earth and Vasuda Prime, if they knew so little about us?
It was the span weeks from vasuda prime to Sol, so they didn't know where to go, but figured it out based on where we retreated to...
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Ah, I thought you were referring to the beamdata, since you posted the beam stats. My mistake :)
Yet still, the terrans didn't only retreat to Earth, IIRC. Why not follow them to all the other systems they resided in, assuming they were the homeworlds?
Also, I find it difficult to believe that no word was sent to the rest of the shivans. You don't just send an armada out to the middle of nowhere, and not keep in touch to a degree, at least.
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well, they had thought they were unstoppable, since the ancients didn't have enough time to utilise the technology to destroy the lucifer... The shivans probably knew of their weakness, but underestimated the threat... Something that they didn't let happen again in FS2...
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Not much of a threat, really. They had to rely on Ancient writings to find the weakness, and they only barely managed to exploit it in time. The Shivans also had to know the extent of they're offensive and defensive capabilities at the time, as well, so how exactly do they grow to fear a massive armada of colins? They would've been able to put 2 and 2 together, and realize "y'know what? I don't think they have anymore of them big ships."
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Well, they saw a chance to use Capella to go elsewhere at the same time, to the took the opprotunity...
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23 years is a long time, and the GTVA was much better equipped to deal with the Shivans the second time around. (The reason it feels like you're winning early on in the game is because you probably are.)
Actually, I think the Shivans had never seen anybody with a juggernaut-class vessel besides themselves. And considering they have 80+ themselves, they would be willing to be credulous of a large fleet of juggernauts. They have them. Why not someone else?
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Think about it. If the shivans knew the technological level of the GTVA back then, they would also likely have some idea of their production capabilities, based on the number of ships that were sent at em. It's not hard to figure that the GTVA wouldn't have the resources to manufacture an armada of such ships in such relatively little time.
Why not someone else? Because the GTVA never used any such vessels or technology in the first encounter, when they could have made a much bigger difference, and ended the war swiftly, decisively, and with fewer losses.
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Again, because it takes time to get such vessels around. They're big. They're slow. And it's a rare admiral who sends his most valuable ships into uncharted, hostile territory. You send something of lesser value first.
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They have subspace. Incredibly fast travel via nodes and intersystem jumps. You make it sound as though FS2 vessels use conventional drives to traverse long distances :rolleyes:
If you have multiple destroyer level ships destroyed by the Lucifer, and you had a ship that could take it apart, then eventually, you send in that ship.
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You misunderstand me...and ignore the point made repeatedly that the Lucifer fleet couldn't have had communications with home base, else they would have called for backup.
How long does it take a ship to traverse a system? Several days, at least? The Aquitane's transit to Epsilon Pegausi from the Nebula took at least a week. The ships would have to come from all across the GTVA, making multiple jumps and crossing multiple systems. And they wouldn't come alone, they'd bring their battlegroups with them. Orions and Hecates are slower then the Colossus. Tack on the transit time for them, the corvettes, the cruisers, and the resupply train.
There's also the point that the GTVA wouldn't have seen any real reason to panic up until the 80+ Sathani showed up. They seemed to be holding their own against the more conventional Shivan forces in the nebula, even pushing them back. One Sathanas was not such a cause for concern, the GTVA had the Colossus ready and waiting, in addition to a plan for a massed destroyer attack that would have worked, based on information you collected in "A Monster In The Mist". It was only until a lot of the Sathani started showing up that the GTVA fleet in the area was clearly outclassed.
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I completely forgot what this was about...
Well, I've kinda lost my momentum (I usually only come up with decent arguments in short bursts), but I'll try:
I have a Hard time believing that the Shivans had absolutely no contact with the "Home Base." No matter how big and bad you are, you always keep some line of communication back home :doubt:.
IIRC, the GTVA was frightened as hell of the Sathanas. Quote: You'll have to take out at least two of the Sathanas' Main Beam Cannons for the Collosus to stand a chance. That suggests they had a decent amount of respect for the danger it represented, and of the sheer offensive punch just one such ship had.
TBH, now that I reflect back, neither of our opinions has any substantial proof behind them. Either one seems just as likely.
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You must remember that the Lucifer nearly destroyed earth, and so there was no need to call in reinforcements until the command ship was already gone. If there's one thing about the Shivans that can actually be inferred from canonical sources, it's that they have little concern for losses.
As for everything else, well I do believe it takes relatively little time to cross a system (several hours, if they take time and don't stress their subspace drives) but in time of crisis as little as a few minutes. They jump in through a node, recharge their drives, jump to another node, and jump out through it. All of which take essentially no time. The reason the Aquitane took so long to get to Gamma Draconis is that they would have stopped in Capella to resupply and regroup.
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Well to solve the problem of the LRed you just get one of the destroyers to aim a BFGreen at the LRed and then unleash hell upon the Sath!
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Agrred. Without the 4 beams, the Sath is weak.
4 destroyers attack it from the rear - it would probably get toasted...
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Without their beams the Destroyers are weak. Without its beams the collosus is weak. Do you see the stupidity that statement represents?
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I allso stated the inherent flaw of the Shivan designes - ALL FIREPOWER FORWARD. It's a very bad design...
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Unless you have sheer offense in mind. Shivan ships have unparalleled offensive punch. No Destoryer can match a Ravana head on. Liliths pound multiple Fenris/Leviathan Cruisers into scrap, etc., etc.
The Sathanas doesn't bear mentioning in this regard...
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Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
Unless you have sheer offense in mind. Shivan ships have unparalleled offensive punch. No Destoryer can match a Ravana head on. Liliths pound multiple Fenris/Leviathan Cruisers into scrap, etc., etc.
Corvettes, however, are a key area the Shivans lack. I have never seen a Moloch take down either a Sobek or Deimos on its own(with the exception of one mission, in which the Sobek was already heavily damaged), and both alliance classes are frequently seen engaging larger targets. Terrans and Vasudans may be outmatched in all other classes, but in terms of corvettes, they excel. Get a Sobek with four Perseus flying cover, and you've got a dangerous little unit.
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Originally posted by Ransom Arceihn
They jumped to other systems without the use of a (known) node with Ross-128, so it's possible the ones that jumped out jumped to another system.
Remember this plot "point" closely for FREESPACE 1 AND 2....
"Shivans have an intimate knowledge of subspace beyond that of humans or vasudans. There knowledge of freespace is far more than expected."
DUH! i mean comon, if these guys existed for more than a millenia already, as a space faring race, for whatever reason, common sense would dictate, im sorry, that Shivans obviously can navigate subspace better than humans (heck maybe not but the fact that they "appear closer and more accurately to strategic places along the story its kinda obvious"). this is always a moot point of, "o wow for real?" and the, "no **** DAMN its that simple?"....
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Mere speculation of course, but the fact is, they were able to get to Ross 128 by some means from out of system. than used an intersystem jump to get to ROSS128's main "HQ-installation" right?
Now, this is the conventional way of thinking. now for the sake of arguement, what if, they did use the normal way of subspace like "commonly used?", for instance, an artificial subspace conduit to anywhere they wish in the galaxy? This makes more sense and can be argued in favor of, if u point out key moments where the Shivans jump into systems, especially areas far from System-to-system nodes, near ALLIED FORCES, its easy to argue that its possible (story points aside since all we are doing is assuming), is that the shivans can navigate subspace non-conventionally via "artificial subspace" conduits....
thinkabout it, just about everything out there that man has "naturally made", can be inmitated, and "man made", only diffrence is that its possibly not as accurate or close, but its close enough.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
I allso stated the inherent flaw of the Shivan designes - ALL FIREPOWER FORWARD. It's a very bad design...
Yes its only good when u have all the Mission designers at V make all allied ships appear or placed infront of there big guns lol...
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i think that a point most people miss...unless i am missing something...is that the "Shivans arrived at Ross 128 without a node arguement" is in fact not a valid arguement. Lt Ash jumped in running away from them. They came from the same place he did. They were in system.
On the other hand.....the Shivans came through a collapsed node in FS2, if they came through a node at all to reach Capella. To me, that says that they don't absolutely "need" nodes. The big question then becomes...why do they use them at all? Power strain? Or can a Sathanas disrupt subspace enough to bend it to her will? If that ends up the case.....imagine what 80 of them could do. I still think that when we start discussing Shivan motives we need a simple....because they wanted to. Anything about why they wanted to do anything is conjecture. A very alien race with a very alien thought process. The questions we have been kicking around since 1999 may or may not have been answered in FS3. The only way i can see it happening is if we actually got to talk to them.....which may or may not be so far fetched...we still don't know exactly what happened to Bosch. wouldn't it have been ironic if he had come back as the savior of us all in FS3?
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Perhaps...but from whom?
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Terran destroyers or criuisers by their design (shape, weapon, subsystems & engine placement) are superior to the shivans in most cases..
What really makes shivans more deadly is the fact that their beams have a re-charge time of 15 seconds tops, while terran have 25-30. On top of that the shivan beams fire for 7.0 seconds, while terran fire 4.0 - in other words, shivan beams are FOUR times as powerfull as terran ones.
I changed all the beam values to a mid centre between the two (20-25 sec recharge for all, 6 second fire for terrans, 7 for shivans), and belive me, shivans destroyers started to look pretty bad at that point...
On another note, in the last few FS2 mission it is clearly stated that "Shivans are just as dependant on subspace nodes as we are"
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Also, Capella was singularly devoid of unstable nodes.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Terran destroyers or criuisers by their design (shape, weapon, subsystems & engine placement) are superior to the shivans in most cases..
What really makes shivans more deadly is the fact that their beams have a re-charge time of 15 seconds tops, while terran have 25-30. On top of that the shivan beams fire for 7.0 seconds, while terran fire 4.0 - in other words, shivan beams are FOUR times as powerfull as terran ones.
I changed all the beam values to a mid centre between the two (20-25 sec recharge for all, 6 second fire for terrans, 7 for shivans), and belive me, shivans destroyers started to look pretty bad at that point...
On another note, in the last few FS2 mission it is clearly stated that "Shivans are just as dependant on subspace nodes as we are"
hmm interesting snippet of info...
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Terran destroyers or criuisers by their design (shape, weapon, subsystems & engine placement) are superior to the shivans in most cases..
What really makes shivans more deadly is the fact that their beams have a re-charge time of 15 seconds tops, while terran have 25-30. On top of that the shivan beams fire for 7.0 seconds, while terran fire 4.0 - in other words, shivan beams are FOUR times as powerfull as terran ones.
I changed all the beam values to a mid centre between the two (20-25 sec recharge for all, 6 second fire for terrans, 7 for shivans), and belive me, shivans destroyers started to look pretty bad at that point...
So you changed the stats from canon to suit your argument? :wtf:
Terran destroyers tend to focus on bringing heavy firepower towards the sides (Orion, anyone?). Ideal if your going to sidle up next to em. Shivans, however, have destroyers that are a) in possession of FAR superior weapons, and b) are capable of focusing all of their heavy-hitting weapons in one direction. (except the Demon, which is still superior to Terran destroyers IIRC even though it can only fire one gun at a time on any given ship)
Also, your underestimating the shivan destroyers radius IIRC.
Not all Capship battles take place in confined quarters, either (shivan Beams have a superior range, too), nor are they completely immobile. They can turn to face an enemy.
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I belive that in the story, when dealing with subspace travel, when its intersystem there isnt "one conduit" from point a to z within a system. That concept is between system to system. when in system i dont think the subsapce travel essentially is the same in terms of those 2 types of travel. i belive in FS1 there was an explanation for this i just dont remember which specifically....
however, it has been mentioned plenty of times the shivans jump in and out "random" entires between systems without subspace nodes. but the only contradiction to this is that in some cases, they actually use the nodes suggesting a possible distance issue.
maybe they can only jump random systems within a certain max range....
i think the shivans got subspace down to apoint where its just like Inner system travel, without the nodes to go from say pluto to earth in 4 minutes via subspace.
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Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
So you changed the stats from canon to suit your argument? :wtf:
Terran destroyers tend to focus on bringing heavy firepower towards the sides (Orion, anyone?). Ideal if your going to sidle up next to em. Shivans, however, have destroyers that are a) in possession of FAR superior weapons, and b) are capable of focusing all of their heavy-hitting weapons in one direction. (except the Demon, which is still superior to Terran destroyers IIRC even though it can only fire one gun at a time on any given ship)
Also, your underestimating the shivan destroyers radius IIRC.
Not all Capship battles take place in confined quarters, either (shivan Beams have a superior range, too), nor are they completely immobile. They can turn to face an enemy.
agreed....
story wise and common sense wise based on current human designs... DUDE! current navies do not balance all there guns in the front of the damn thing to get a nice sniper like attack like the shivans. the shivan mode of attack is much more animalistic and less calculated (well more as long as there target is infront of them). Human design balances all weapons on all sides to provide the best possible cover to all its suroundings. as soon as a cap ship gets behind a sethanas, it just camps and blows it from the ass...
one of these days ima write a theroy and motief explaing Shivan and Terran/vasudan tactics based on the story without chaning anything to convene my arguement.
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Eh? Yeah, I know that about navies, hence why I stated that terran design focuses more on putting guns on the sides. Shivans tend to go sheer offensive, though, moving in and decimating anything thats in their way. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any time when the shivans were on pure defensive, where having good coverage would help a lot more. Also, when your on the attack, you tend to be moving forwards, with your front towards the enemy.
As per the Sathanas backside thing, wouldn't work. While they turn obscenely slow, they can still make it in time to slag any ship attacking their rear before they're even at half health.
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Shivans use swarm tactics, therefore it's quite logical to combine that with a all-weapons-in-the-front ship design.
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Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
As per the Sathanas backside thing, wouldn't work. While they turn obscenely slow, they can still make it in time to slag any ship attacking their rear before they're even at half health.
But any admiral worth his rank would have the destroyer(s) manuver to stay in the rear of the Sathanas.
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Originally posted by Liberator
But any admiral worth his rank would have the destroyer(s) manuver to stay in the rear of the Sathanas.
But any shivan admiral (or whatever) worth his rank would dive, bringing it's LRed to bear a lot faster than the slow ass destroyers could maneuver out of reach.
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Slash beams tend to kill that LRed an awful lot. Maybe it's poorly sited or something...I've had a Deimos take it out with un-SEXP'd TerSlash fire three out of five times.
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Originally posted by Liberator
But any admiral worth his rank would have the destroyer(s) manuver to stay in the rear of the Sathanas.
Which is why the Shivans would plan their attacks so as to ensure their big hitters arrived in a position where they could bring their main weaponry to bear quickly and effectively.
Presumably, a Sathanas could fire it's main guns as soon as they emerged from subspace - ideal for hitting hard and fast. Shivans - if they have a set of particular tactics - will attack in multiple locations to deny the enemy manueverability and freedom; forcing them on the back foot.
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Thanks much, aldo. Everyone seems to think that shivan ships will always be fought at their weakest point, or be put on the defensive, or that they'd be idiots and just sit their while the soak up fire :doubt:.
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Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
....that they'd be idiots and just sit their while the soak up fire :doubt:.
Umm, Colossus vs. Sathanas, round 1?
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I have made a mission to show what happens if 5 Orions jump in behind the Sathanas, If anyone's interested I'll e-mail it to them.
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since when did Orions travel in packs?
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Since I made the mission!
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Originally posted by Liberator
Umm, Colossus vs. Sathanas, round 1?
There's a reason why people hated that mission.........
Of course, the first Sathani let itself be ambushed.... it got hit by the bombers and Mjolnirs, and must have realised it was being targeted with precision - but not fatal - strikes.
And, hey presto, out came the GTVA's biggest and best ship - the Colossus. And the Sathani sat, and was destroyed... and in the process would have fully analysed the offensive capabilities of the Colossus itself. Next time a Sathani encountered the Colossus, it destroyed it....
So who's to say the first Sathani wasn't sacrificed to identify the GTVA's most powerful weapon, on the assumption that the GTVA technological level would result in a single ship or class comparable to the Sathani?
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
Also, Capella was singularly devoid of unstable nodes.
Not so. Nodes form constantly, generally only lasting a few seconds. It's possible the shivans can tap into these micro nodes and force them to stay open long enough to get their ships through.
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Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
Thanks much, aldo. Everyone seems to think that shivan ships will always be fought at their weakest point, or be put on the defensive, or that they'd be idiots and just sit their while the soak up fire :doubt:.
The same holds true for the GTVA. Their ships wouldn't just stand there and soak fire. If a Sath jumps in, you jump out (preferably at least 1000 klicks away) and every friendly in the vicinity jumps behind the sath (and you could allso jump back).
Of course, the sath can jump out too..and there we have the jump in, jump out marathon...
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Sooo Does anyone want the mission, bear in mind that its not just the orions warping in and blowing it up but something else happens, go on just try it!
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Originally posted by aldo_14
There's a reason why people hated that mission.........
Of course, the first Sathani let itself be ambushed.... it got hit by the bombers and Mjolnirs, and must have realised it was being targeted with precision - but not fatal - strikes.
And, hey presto, out came the GTVA's biggest and best ship - the Colossus. And the Sathani sat, and was destroyed... and in the process would have fully analysed the offensive capabilities of the Colossus itself. Next time a Sathani encountered the Colossus, it destroyed it....
So who's to say the first Sathani wasn't sacrificed to identify the GTVA's most powerful weapon, on the assumption that the GTVA technological level would result in a single ship or class comparable to the Sathani?
I always imagined the Shivans to operate on instinct so I doubt that. Besides,they may have loads of 'em, bu I doubt the Shivans would allow a Jug to be lost. Sounds more like the role of the Rakshasa destroyed by the Carthage and Dashor. Maybe they only sent 1 Sathanas because that's all they had in the area at the time.
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Originally posted by Roanoke
I always imagined the Shivans to operate on instinct so I doubt that. Besides,they may have loads of 'em, bu I doubt the Shivans would allow a Jug to be lost. Sounds more like the role of the Rakshasa destroyed by the Carthage and Dashor. Maybe they only sent 1 Sathanas because that's all they had in the area at the time.
Uh... but that ship wasn't attacked by the Collossus.
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Originally posted by Liberator
Umm, Colossus vs. Sathanas, round 1?
That Sathanas had nowhere to go at that point. Plus, it's weapons systems had been completely ****ed, thanks to Alpha 1's helios bombs. How about round 2, where it jumped in right at the Collosus and pasted it with it's cannons?
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The Shivans are optimized for offensive fighting, and that works pretty well for them, since they've never really had to fight defensively.
Except once. In the nebula, before the Sathanas arrived. And as I've said before, the reason it feels like you're winning there is probably because you are. When forced on the defensive, the Shivans seem to seize up. It's not in their nature to defend, they're not used to it.
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
Sooo Does anyone want the mission, bear in mind that its not just the orions warping in and blowing it up but something else happens, go on just try it!
I'll take it. God knows I need something new to play with while TropicsPoker is down. Please send to teroknorevents (AT) gmail (SpamHatersDot) com. Thanks.
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The Shivans are optimized for offensive fighting, and that works pretty well for them, since they've never really had to fight defensively.
I do agree with this. Looking at the GTVA ships, their firepower is fairly evenly distributed around the ship. Shivan capital ships have practicly all their firepower directly in front of them (except the Demon and the Lucifer).
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Originally posted by Kosh
(except the Demon and the Lucifer).
How does the Lucifer not have all of its firepower concentrated at the front? Its two flux cannons are on the front arms, and we saw what those could do in FS1. :p
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don't forget it has a 3rd hidden flux cannon on it's side.
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Originally posted by Carl
don't forget it has a 3rd hidden flux cannon on it's side.
and one on the other side, then the middle one.
5
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Five? Which model were you looking at? I've targeted ever turret on the thing, and I've only ever seen the two up front. Plus, those were the only two that ever fired.
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The Tech Room claims it has three.
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It does, but there are only two on the actual model/used in-game, so that's what I'm going by.
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THere's also the 2 it uses in the cutscene, that are its fighterbays in the game.
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
THere's also the 2 it uses in the cutscene, that are its fighterbays in the game.
actualy the fighterbays ar behind those ones, it still has them
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I believe the general consensus about those beams was that they were misplaced, not that they were an additional set.
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if u want the long and the short of this, go to gamespot.com, community, search freespace 2 and go to the biggest forum of the three then go to the topic "something just occured to me (MASSIVE SPOILERS)"
and then, for the love of all things sacred CLOSE THIS TOPIC BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Oki about this whole ofensive defensive thing of the GTVA/Shivan warships...it's true I mean the Sathanas could be tosted by an Orion if it was well placed further back and to the side of course that Lred in the rear would pose a problem but I believe it could be taken care of with only one wing of bommbers!
As fosr th Colossus keep in mind that it was not designed to battle enything of equal size and firepower and we know that the Sathanas was way more powerfull than the Colossus (4 BFred's).
The Colossus was mainly designed to battle and win against multiple destroyers I believe that 6 destroyers are an acurate noumber of warships that the Colossus could take on and win.
As for the Sathanas just soking up fire and eventualy beeing destroyed by the Colossus remeber that the Colossus had LRBGrens I believe wich if i'm corect have an efective range of some 10500 meters vs 7200 of the Sathanas beams so that means that it ca n deliver more damage in time even though those beams are less powerfull than the shivan ones!
The Sathanas beeing an ofensive weapon is designed with heavy armour..a lot of armour comparing it with the Colossus armour it makes the Colossus to shame.
That is why the Colossus had such a hard time taking it out even with all guns blazing I believe there wer some 8 beam cannons fiering at that blasted thing.
The colossus was a superb weapon for its original role taking out destroyers it sucked at taking out Satanas ships sure you want to make it a more efective weapon cut its fighter bayis to about 40% of theyr size double the armour and add some more Heavy weaponry and there you have it and GTVA version of th Sathanas.
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Both the Colossus and the Sathanas have an equal amount of hitpoints (1000000), the Sathanas has 4 BFReds with 1900 damage (I think) and 8000 range, the Colossus's default BGreen causes about 1100 damage and has a range of 4000m. The LRBGreen is the overloaded version of the BGreen, with higher damage and a range of 8000m. The Sathanas's beams recharge in less than 10 secs (like most Shivan beams), while the LRBGreen recharges in 30 secs. Now that's why the colossus needs 10 minutes or so to destroy the Sathanas while the Sathanas blasts the Colossus in less than a minute.
Anyway, try putting a Lucifer from FS2 and a Colossus in front of each other and beam-free only a few TerSlashers and the Lucifers beams. The Lucifer nearly destroys the Colossus, because the Colossus can only attack with its small front cannons while the Lucifer atacks with its quick main guns many times, which recharge in 10 secs. However, if you give the Colossus an attack order and beam-free all the beams, it will pulverize the Lucifer with its BGreens. It's the same with the Ravana.
To make a Terran Sathanas out of the Colossus, replace its BGReens with BFReds and its TerSlashers with LReds.
Oh, and the tech description for the Lucifer from FS1 says it has 3 beams because the original design had three arms, like the Cain/Lilith (look at the credits of FS1). Then they changed that to two and later, they added 2 more to the sides (those seen in the Tombaugh station attack and in the FS2 intro), but those did not appear on the ingame version.
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Originally posted by Roanoke
I always imagined the Shivans to operate on instinct so I doubt that. Besides,they may have loads of 'em, bu I doubt the Shivans would allow a Jug to be lost. Sounds more like the role of the Rakshasa destroyed by the Carthage and Dashor. Maybe they only sent 1 Sathanas because that's all they had in the area at the time.
Remember the FS1 mission where the Shivans booby-trapped weapons crates; that's not an act of instinct but planning. Likewise their decision not to destroy the Iceni when it makes first contact.
I don't think it's inconceivable the Shivans would sacrifice a Sathanas to gain tactical knowledge; it can't be that big a sacrifice given that they have at least 80 others withing a few days (or so) travel; and also in that they identify the GTVA has Mjolnir cannon, that GTVA attacks are likely to be used to 'break down' the ship, and also the size & armament of the Colossus class.
IIRC they had crippled the Colossus fighterbay prior to it's destruction - perhaps they were counter-acting the tactic of the bombers taking out Sathani beam cannon?
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The Shivans didn't know a 6.1 km long superdestroyer was waiting for them in the Capella system. The Colossus attacked immediately after the Sathanas jumped. The Shivans probably thought they could repair their weapons before a GTVA destroyer could do serious damage, and their bombers could take care of the destroyer. I doubt they were expecting to see a ship as powerful as the Colossus.
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Don't forget the Sathanas was not alone, so they also counted on support from teir own destroyers.
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Originally posted by knn
The Shivans didn't know a 6.1 km long superdestroyer was waiting for them in the Capella system. The Colossus attacked immediately after the Sathanas jumped. The Shivans probably thought they could repair their weapons before a GTVA destroyer could do serious damage, and their bombers could take care of the destroyer. I doubt they were expecting to see a ship as powerful as the Colossus.
They did the next time though, didn't they?
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You couldn't see any other destroyers coming in to help the Sathanas. They probably didn't have any around, but it is strange that the Shivans did almost nothing to save the Sathanas. (The mission makes sense if you don't destroy all the beams. The Colossus is struggling to destroy the juggernaught as fast as possible, which is unnecessary if it poses no threat).
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... uh...
There certianly were other ships assisting the sathanas... What do you call the Demon that shows up after the Sathanas leaves then?
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It was a long time ago I played with FS2, but I think that Demon was destroyed, altough I'm not sure. Even if there were any other destroyers there, then it's very strange the Shivans didn't send them in to help.
Now that I think about it, the secondary goal of that mission was to destroy the Demon. I think I disabled it and then I took out the beams threatening the allied corvette.
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Yes, but it was assisting the Sathanas nonetheless...
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Just to clear a few things up, The LRBGreen has:
Range: 8000
Damage: 1900
Lifetime (how long it's active): 4 Seconds
Fire wait: 35 Seconds
*Note that the LRBGreen is the supercharged version of the BGreen, the Collosus' standard weapon.
The BGreen has:
Range: 4000
Damage: 1200
Lifetime: 4 seconds
Fire wait: 30 seconds
The BFRed has:
Range: 7400
Damage: 2100
Lifetime: 7 seconds
Fire wait: 10 seconds
*Note that the BFRed is NOT the overcharged version of the sathanas cannons.
I'd hate to see what it would be like if the Sathanas did like the Collosus and supercharged its weapons.
(The mission makes sense if you don't destroy all the beams. The Colossus is struggling to destroy the juggernaught as fast as possible, which is unnecessary if it poses no threat).
I thought they were urgent because they wanted to destroy the Sathanas before it could escape.
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I didn't know the exact stats, but the point is that GTVA weaponry is slooooow, while Shivan weaponry is much faster, while even more destructive.
I thought they were urgent because they wanted to destroy the Sathanas before it could escape.
Escape where? Back to Gamma Drac? Not probable, and even if the Sathanas did that, what would the Shivans gain. And besides, the Colossus would've followed. It makes much more sense to shout: 'We're on the verge of redline. We're giving it all we've got'... if the Sathanas is blasting you with a few BFReds. I don't think they'd risk a reactor core meltdown just to kill it sooner. Also, the increase in range was needed to counter the Sathanas's long range.
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The GTVA had to destroy the Sathanas before it could repair its main beams... otherwise the thing would be very hard to stop (maybe impossible); especially if the GTVA fleet had taken a heavy battering in the NTF war, was spread out a bit, and if they were short of warheads or Mjolnirs before the front lines.
What the GTVA was scared of was another Lucifer situation.
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Standard GTVA Destroyers have BGreens, the Colossus has super charged versions [glow=green](BFGreen and LRBGreen)[/glow]
Standard Shivan destroyers (and the Lilith) have LReds, the Sathanas has a super charged version [glow=red](BFRed)[/glow]
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Originally posted by knn
Escape where? Back to Gamma Drac?
Aldo makes a good point. During the Great War the Shivans were able to make use of unstable jump nodes. Command had no idea if the Sathanas could also do this (In fact we still don't know). If the shivans managed to get the Sathanas away it could easily have jumped somewhere they couldn't follow it and then jumped back in later/elsewhere to launch a surprise attack.
That's probably also why Command were so desperate to take out that shivan destroyer too.
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Or it couldve powered up it's jump drives and jumped across the system to enter vega or epsilon pegausi, repair on the move.
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The point is - teh Colossus doesn't suck - it's beams do.
Actually, Terran and Vasudan beams suck BIG time.
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Then the Colossus does 'suck', because it's beams are as integral to the ship as the hitpoint value it's assigned.
That is, of course, unless you want to descend into the realm of unbelievability by adding superbeams willy-nilly without regard for the actual effect they would have upon, for example, power drain.
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^well, the shivans seem able to do it. Actualy the main problem with terran beams (particularly those on the collossus) seems to be lack of heat dissapation, not lack of power
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
Standard GTVA Destroyers have BGreens, the Colossus has super charged versions (BFGreen and LRBGreen)
Standard Shivan destroyers (and the Lilith) have LReds] the Sathanas has a super charged version (BFRed)
A: Don't use color like thatl
B: I don't think that the BGG and the LRBG are that closely related to the BG's...
And shame on all you people for not memorizing Zylon's beam faq... (http://home.att.net/~clay.h/fs2/beamfaq.htm)
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Hey, I did...Almost...
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If I remeber corectly there was that whole redline reactor thing.....hmm....I dont know what to say but I think that FireCrack os wrong about the beam cannons not having enough power. And if that is corect that suports mi theory that the Colossus is a better designed ship then the Sathanas as a whole even if its main pourpose was definatly not that of batteling a Sathanas kind of ship. But what I agree with FireCrack is that the heat disapation is a problem because I remember something about buckling under the strain I think those were the Colossus beam cannons.
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Punctuate more.
Heat shouldn't be a problem in space. Though the captian on the Colossus did say they'd melt the heatsinks if they pushed any harder...
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Probably couldn't dissapate the heat quick enough. Also a lot of heat would be going through the internal energy conduits / cables to reach the beam itself.
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point
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one thought: could the Shivans have actually managed to do the impossible? If gravity directly affects subspace, then would not have subspace collapsed one the super-nova came, thereby destroying the Shivans within?
They first launched a massive subspace pulse...and only then did Capella go Nova. Perhaps...the pulse, its a key to all this. I dont think it opened up any kind of node or layer into subspace - hell, I doubt it did anything like that. It appears more like....a signal, a beacon perhaps? Something that could send off a message accross subspace, perhaps outside the galaxy...maybe even the universe itself?
The sathanas then jumped out, but the few left behind would have been able to use the pulse, or what was left to trigger the explosion to make sure hte GTVA didn't follow the Sathani out, or find out what they were sending out either (now with ETAK, everything was compromised)....god knows where the sathani went though.........
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Well I dont know about this whole beacon stuff.
But what is clear to me at least is the fact that the shivan casused supernova was a kind of desperate act on theyr behalf.
As for the whole 80+ Colossus theory that the shivans might have feared I dont know what to say if I were them then I would sure as hell take into consideration.
Also I doubt the fact that the shivans would wilingli destroy an entire starsistem just for the pourpose of sendind a mesage and why Capella why not any other sistem because if what you say is corect then eny sistem would do.
No I believe fermly that the blowing up of the Capella star has something to do with the bigger problem that the shivans I believe feared.
This only problem could only be something like another force more powerfull then even the shivans because it fits the general pourpose of the shivans as beeing not great destroyers but great preservers.
They anihalated the Ancients but failed to do that with the GTVA a first of its kind it might add. So think about if those Sathani were nothing more then a desperate measure of delaing what the Shivans might consider inevitabl or at least giving other civilations another chance of fighting this bigger problem wher they failed. Who knows what subspace node laied undiscovered in Capella wich explored by the GTVA wich we know is a very curios entity might of lead to god knows what, and the shivans only wanted to prevent the opening of a Pandoras box.
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I'm so sick of that theory, tbh. "It must be ANOTHER UBER ALIEN FORCE with super mega Death Rays that even the Shivans crap themselves over!" No offense to you, AlphaOne. I just hear it all the time, and Honestly, I can't find much credibility to it.
Oh, and where'd you hear the 'great preservers' part?
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The only credibility behind it, is Dave B. saying that, "The Shivans are meerly a symptom of a much larger problem."...
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That can be interpreted as have multiple meanings. I don't see how it provides much support to the argument.
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Larger problem: Humanity is outside it's natural borders.
Larger problem: We are damaging subspace.
Larger problem: We have taken far too big task.
Larger problem: WHERE ARE MY JARS OF EXPIRED JAM
Larger problem: zomg überspecies #42149051
Larger problem: Hey why can't we all just get along
and so on
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Well i cant beat that argument but I must say that the othr ones dont make mnuch sense either at least th one regarding the whole subspacedamage thing because if I remember corectly the Ancients were traveling through subspace much more intensiveli and for a lot more time then the GTVA did and they were obliterated.
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Unless [V] releases the plot for the FS3 we'll never know. At least it's fun to speculate.
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Originally posted by Janos
Larger problem: Humanity is outside it's natural borders.
Larger problem: We are damaging subspace.
Larger problem: We have taken far too big task.
But how are the Shivans a symptom of them?
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For the Damaging subspace part, it could be that by destroying subspace with inferior tech, we're pinpointing our location for the Shivans, and giving the sufficient reason to wipe us out apart from the fact that they seem to be genocidal...
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heres a problem the shivans could be a sympthom of:
Space is overpopulated.
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I didn't notice shivans had fear.
They seem to throw ships at the GTVA even if they get wiped out wave after wave after wave. They don't fall back. They don't relent. They don't stop. They don't care for casualties.
Don't see fear in their behavior.
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Huh well I must admit that the shivans have no fear I must say that If mi estimates are corect theyr losses were much higher then what the GTVA had but they had reserves th GTVA depleted them. Well that was until they brought in the Sathani wich obliterated fleet after fleet after fleet....but still not taking into acount the Sathani the Shivans might have been beaten back a little before theyr ovwerwhelming numbers in destroyers and corvettes would tilt th balance!
But still I dont know what to say I mean we know that the shivans were the simptom of a much bigger problem and I do agree that until V releases the plot for FS3 we dont know but still its is fun to speculate!
I mean I just thought of another reason if the shivans knew no defeata till the destruction of the Lucyfer the they must have been somewhat stunned at the outcoming I mean here is a race which was clarely outpased by the technology of the shivans taking out theyr uber "hey look at me I'm a bif ass mtf invinceble destroyer".
That must of made them to econsider the whole issue!
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Larger problem = perpetual intergalactic survival of the fittest (?)
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the larger problem could be what the Shivans were running from. In this case I mention running cause thats what they seem to be doing.
the initial lucifer fleet spotted the GTVA, as well as a route through. So it decided to notify the main Sathanas fleet and then proceed to do its job of clearing the local infestation so that the primary fleet could get through. Unfortunately, it failed the mission leading the Shivans to think that the GTVA were ub3r difficult to beat.
Come thirty years later, and the GTVA is once again encountered, offering the oppurtunity once again to find an excellent route. This time however, the Shivans find it in Capella as opposed to Earth or anywhere else, and dispatch Sathanii to get there. That would explain it...but [v] ought to do it at least....seing that FS3 is dead and all....
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Larger Problem: An imbalance in The Force...
:D